OK. I've got my thinking cap on. You've clearly stated your tastes and leanings, from what you've said. Too bad, planars may have fit the bill.

Some of the new(er) Martin Logan speakers are a bit less imposing in looks compared to the Maggies, and should be looked at. The hybrid ones, that is.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1208529460

http://www.ca.martinlogan.com/speaker_intro/source.html

I would consider the smallest Magnepan, the MMG which can be purchased through Magnepan for a 30 day trial. They are reasonably smaller than the 1.6 and yet have a similar sound. You can find the comparison made on the manufacturer's web site where reviews are posted. The MMG is small enough to be moved in and out of place by most anyone (if need be) and simply doesn't have the formidable facade of the larger Magnepans.

Eddie. What a story! Thank heavens you were able to get your family out of the fire, but I'm sorry about the injuries you suffered.

As for speakers, I think Jan makes a great deal of sense. Some people actually prefer smaller MMGs so much that rather than upgrading to 1.6, they tweak the MMGs to the n-th degree. As far as the speakers are concerned, they're the best bargain anywhere, at $550, w/ 60 day money back guarantee and 1 yr window in which you can apply the MMGs toward purchase of bigger Maggies.

Since you won't break the bank on the MMGs, perhaps you can convince a dealer to let you home audition some speakers, to compare w/ MMGs, and that way, you can either return MMGs for full return or some other speakers.

I listen to a lot of the music that you listen to. Been listening a lot to the new Alkan disc by Hamelin, I have a lot of piano recordings, too, starting from Cortot, Benno Moiseiwitsch to modern pianists like Aimard, Lupu... also do a fair amount of jazz & rock records, just like you. I use Harbeth Super HL5 speakers. They are nominally called 'monitors' but they're pretty big. And the bass goes surprisingly low, and with clarity of detail. The midrange is really honest and pure, and the treble sounds fantastic, too, never shrill or artificially "hi-fi". Very musical speakers for classical music. Another plus is that they're not finicky about placement or stands. As far as I'm concerned, they can't be beat in the kind of music I listen to at the price point, ~$5-6K depending on finish. Other speakers you might want to consider - which I've tried - are Devore Super 8s or 9s. Those speakers are very musical & in my many auditions of them, they image like there's no tomorrow, fantastic when you're listening to Debussy or Messiaen. I had a chance to A-B Audio Physic with Devore speakers, and I immediately preferred the Devores, but it may be different with you.

Good luck & have fun!

Welcome to the forum. Great post. I can

I'm going to guess that you have a fair amount of mono recordings, especially those Annie Fischer records you mention. I think focusing on a dedicated 2 channel system would serve you much better for music listening than 5 speaker surround. I can't bear listening to mono recordings in surround system... but I'm sure you can switch from surround to 2-channel, & vice versa, recording to recording. Still, seems like one step too many for me. All you can do is follow what your ears tell you, I guess... audition a lot of them & keep us up to date!

Hi, Eddie. This might sound funny but there's a punchline to it: my Harbeths are on Ikea wooden chairs right now. I ordered the 18" custom Skylans but they're not here yet, b/c Noel, who designs & custom makes these stands, is just overwhelmed w/ work. But this is another testament to the Harbeths, not being fussy, unlike those prissy prima donna speakers. They still sound fantastic on the Ikea chairs. In fact, if you go to the Harbeth site/forum, you'll read about the designer Alan Shaw raving about using Ikea Lack side tables as stands! They cost $15. Well, he doesn't rave about them anymore but only because Ikea changed the dimensions & they don't fit the Harbeths perfectly. What I like about the Harbeths - aside from their innate musicality & honesty - is precisely this easiness, the adaptability. But I'm looking forward to the Skylans, especially to tighten up the bass response even further. (BTW: I've been doing some film watching on Harbeths - especially the opera DVDs! - and they're fantastic! My parents have a fairly pricey surround system at their home, but I much prefer my 2-channel system. I don't much care for the illusion of crap flying behind my head, thank you very much. )

Devore Super 8s: that's EXACTLY what I thought of when I saw them. How are those tiny things going to manage? The recording was the live concert recording of Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring" conducted by Gergiev, arguably the most full-blooded, electric account on record. HUGE, massive sounds, the thudding percussion, violent trombone glissandos... just a crazy melee. But still: the most beguiling bassoon solo on record - you'll know right away if the speaker/amp/source is REAL, just by the way it makes you believe in the sound of that bassoon (or not). I am certain you know precisely what I'm talking about, as fellow classical music aficionado.

The Devore Super 8s knocked the recording out of the park. Just owned it. I love my Harbeths and there are things that they do better than the Devores, but when it comes to soundstaging & imaging, the Devores take the cake. You wrote that you want speakers that are not bright & are neutral. Given that reference, I'd give the Harbeths the edge there, although Devores are not hi-fi bright by any means. But in terms of imaging/soundstage: it's eerie how such small things accomplish that. Give them a try. But look into the Devore 9s, if at all possible: might give you a better sound in your room at the dimensions.

But still, please do try the MMGs. I'm sure they'll be plenty speedy & present a lot of air for the music you listen to. If you can, get the MMGs, as you have 2 months to home-audition them. Then try to home-audition the Harbeths and/or Devores alongside the MMGs. And go with what hits the nerve & steals your soul.

Your going to need timbre matched centers and surrounds. That's a nice size room but is pretty full with furniture, family and that monster SVS. Small footprint speakers that truly perform like much larger would be a big plus.

The tower on the left is featured on the cover of the current issue. This family of overachievers would be on my very very short list.

RG

Those speakers that rgibran recommends are PSB Synchrony speakers, a great recommendation. If you can afford that whole set, you should consider it. John Atkinson praised the towers, saying that they offer almost as much as the $20K Kef 207/2 speakers he loved, but for less than $5K. There is a guy who JUST purchased the PSB Synchrony Ones who posted in "Entry Level" section, I think, and he LOVES them. I'm very curious to hear them myself...

Eddie,

My apologies. I was referring to the April issue. Do pick one up at your favorite retailer. John Atkinson listens and measures this superb value class A performer as related to reproduction of music.

Here are a couple of links to HT reviews for the

Hey Eddie,
I'm in here too. I made some reccommendations for you on the other forum. but here they are again if you see this first.

System 1:
Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus
Sonus Faber Concertina Domus
Sonus Faber Center Domus
REL B3
Arcam AVR-280
System 2:
Same sub and Receiver but:
Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grands
Vienna Acoustics Hayden Grands
Vienna Acoustics Maestro Grand Center Channel

Have you considered wall-mounted speakers? (I mean on-wall, not in-wall.) That would make the center channel easier to deal with. I recall reading that Dynaudio had some small speakers that were especially tuned for wall-mounting; but in any case, surround speakers are often suitable for wall mounting.

Eddie,
Based on the previous posts about being for Music First... find a place and audition Vienna Acoustics and Sonus Faber Domus Series. Trust me, you'll be pleasantly pleased. As for amplification, Arcam, NAD. And if you have a dealer, he should of gone through Sumiko's "Masters" training. It's a set up that Sumiko (U.S. Distributor of VA and Sonus Faber) teaches their dealers for acheive the best sound in your room. It creates a great soundstage and can be used with other speakers too. We practically use it for ever speaker set up we do at the shop I work at.

Rega and Linn Speakers can be located close to a wall.. regardless of any speaker, there is going to be a little room.. but port or not on the back.. It just all depneds on the company making the speaker. But I'd check out Rega and Linn if you constraints are to be close to the walls.

Well, unlike the other forum we have spoken at, most people here this is no such thing as a "perfect hi-fi system". There not here to push their agenda on you. The other systems I reccomended with Sonus Faber and Vienna can still go pretty close to a wall. If the dealer is a good dealer, he can do the Sumiko Star set up for your home theater and worth within the constraints you have. My recommendation is still to go out on the weekends and audition different speakers, aplifiers, and even dvd/blu-ray players. I'm kind of partial to Pioneer Elite for the Blu-ray since I know they make great transports and have all the new decoders built in. I'm fond of Arcam for surround sound because I use an Arcam AVP700 Pre-amp/Processor and P1000 Power Amp. If you're feeling good, you should come to Ann Arbor, MI and check some stuff out.

Hi, Eddie. From my experience of auditioning different DeVores, they were placed fairly close to the walls & they performed beautifully (the models were 8s, Super 8s, and Silverbacks). I have no reason to believe the 9s wouldn't sound great that way, either. I've read good things about AV123s, and you should audition them. Vienna Acoustics get fantastic marks everywhere, in reviews as well as from the members from this forum. As do Vandersteens, which for the money, perform remarkably. I also loved ProAcs a lot.

As for not commenting as frequently as you wish: I was setting up my system as recently as a month ago. Asked zillions of questions here. I know you get pretty much hands-on feedback at some other forums, but I appreciated the approach here better. They told me about some models to audition, and I went to audition them. I kind of like that approach better, as it allowed me much room for deciding on myself, figuring things out, researching, that sort of thing.

Besides, this thread you started has gotten to 3 pages long! I don't think I got that much feedback when I asked questions! If you feel slighted or miffed, I assure you, there's no reason to. Hope you find your speakers!

I was just going to add... don't get too caught up in the speakers and overlook what is powering them and the source components. I do believe in the Linn idea of "source first". Pretty much their idea is that the source components are the most important part. Because you have to be abel to get as much of the information off the disk or LP as possible. You then need to preserve that signal down the line (another reason why I think cables make a difference besides experiencing differences myself) so it can finally get to the speakers to created the music.That's why with my current upgrading to my system, I first started with getting my power center. The Furman piece in my signature. I am content with my DVD/CD player as of right now but will probably be updated to a Blu-ray player and seperate CD player in the near future. Then I plan to update my speakers or Television. That's why I am always reccommending the Pioneer Elite Blu-ray player and Arcam AV Receivers too. It's quality amplification unlike a great deal of the consumer japanese brands. I can get on a long speech about that but it's really based on preformance than features. So I just wanted to give that advice too.

Quote:
I was just going to add... don't get too caught up in the speakers and overlook what is powering them and the source components... That's why with my current upgrading to my system, I first started with getting my power center.

Amen to that! Glad to find another person who went w/ amplification first. I was repeatedly told that wasn't the smart way to go, but it really worked for me, too, in setting my system up.

me too. when i first started to seriously upgrade a few years ago, i went to the store determined to buy new speakers. i wound up with a new integrated, cd player, interconnect and speaker wire the dealer fabbed for me to work with the speakers i had. when i hooked it all up, i realized that in the 5 years i had those speakers, i never had really heard them, it was like blankets had been removed from over them. i was happy with those speakers for another year until an upgrade deal came along that i could not refuse. i think in your case, you will never really know how good the speakers could be without good electronics to drive them.

tom

Well, a deal isn't always what you should be looking for. Don't get me wrong, saving some money is always a good thing. However, it should always be about if you see the value in what you're purchasing. The Sonuses are a great speaker, they use quality drivers, the cabinets are made of solid maple that is air dried for 2 years and then kiln dried so you don't have to worry about humidity or temperature affecting the sound. And then the design of the speakers too. they have a "lute" shaped cabinet which was designed to work with resonance that try to break it up. I personally think they have a great sound but it's something you really got to audition if you haven't already. "Different Strokes for Different Folks"

Eddie,
I was wondering if you have had the chance to go out and do some auditioning as of yet. If so, what have you heard? What have did you like about them? Didn't like? Hope to hear from you soon.

Quote:
I know the pieces I want are way outside my budget. They are very elegant. Striking - like a beautiful woman.

Eddie

You saw the Homage series didn't you? They are gorgeous. However, don't dismiss the Domus Line. They are probably in or close to your price range are are still quite impressive. And as for sub bass systems, I'd definetly go with a REL R-Series. They have a small footprint and are one of the most musical subs out there. I hope you get to do some auditioning soon and good luck.

Eddie, sorry for your dilemma. God bless your family. As for the speaker selection based on your listening tastes, I have this to say: I agree with Jan in saying that Magnaplanar speakers are probably what will fill fill the void for what your looking for (preferably the smaller models). I don't know whether or not your interested in a brand new pair of speakers or don't mind a well taken care of pre-owned pair, but in any case, I would also recommend a pair of DCM "Time Frame" TF600's. They're a planar type speaker with a much better bass extension than the Magnapans (this would satisfy the wife's taste as well), or, a pair of System Audio 950HH's or 1250's. I personally use a pair of System Audio 950HH speakers for my classical and Jazz applications. They pull out that really well defined (but not brittle) high freq sound that Danish speakers are known for. Good Luck

Quote:
our hearts are set on setting up a better than average 2.0 stereo system for music only. We are considering a midrange turntable complete with tonearm and cartridge, a CD/SACD 2 channel player, an integrated amp with phonostage included, a quality audio rack with isolation platform for turntable, power conditioner, and 2 high quality floorstanders. No subwoofers allowed. No A/V Receivers or Pre/Pro's, etc.

That's awesome, Eddie! I'm sure you'd gathered from some of our responses before that that was the way we were steering you towards? I'm pretty young, but I'm all about 2.0. Really, for dedicated music listening, I like going 2.0 and I don't know if you read my "Harbeths & Movies" post, but I watch a lot of DVDs - both film and opera - on my Harbeths to complete satisfaction.

I guess you'll tell us your budget after your taxes are in? But as far as speakers are concerned (presuming that you're still limiting your speakers to floorstanders) I think most of the recommendations made here still stand. The steal of them all seems to be PSB Synchrony 1s, which got on Stereophile's Class A. John Atkinson gave it one of the most rave reviews, and compared it favorably to KEF 207/2s, which cost $20K, saying that the PSBs deliver almost to the KEFs' level. That's pretty high praise. I recommend Devore 9s still, but if you can push the budget, Devore Silverback References are just phenomenal. I had an opportunity to listen to the Silverbacks last month, driven by all Shindo electronics, with that ridiculously gorgeous Shindo Garrard TT? The music was really unbelievably good through those speaks: warm, liquid, sensuous, clarity w/o harshness. Very smooth. You should also try to audition speakers from ProAc Response lines. I only listened to the cheaper Studio lines, driven by Primare electronics, and even the Studio models sounded impressive. I know you're worried about kids knocking over the speakers, but I have a 3 yr old running around my place all the time w/ her friends, but I don't worry about my Harbeth Super HL5s being toppled. They're pretty heavy, and they're on their proper custom Skylan stands, which are mass-loaded. Rock solid.

As for integrated amp? Plinius, either 9200 or the older 8150. They're powerful (200wpc for 9200, 150 wpc for 8150), very musical w/o being bright. And best of all, they come with built in phono stages which are regarded as some of the best stages in the industry as far as built-in phono stages are concerned. The integrated amp I've been dying to try out is LFD Zero Integrated MKIII. The model w/ phono stage costs around $3200 I think. You have to home audition this one; I think you have a week or a month? I don't remember. From all accounts, it's supposed to be really musical. Basically benchmade by Richard Bews in England. And supposed to have a killer phono stage built in. Contact Walter Swanbon of Fidelis AV, who's one of only 2 dealers in the States for LFD. Last time I was seriously considering the LFD, the wait list was a month... might be better now, might be worse... Of course the Creek Destiny, too, which should be relatively easy to audition. The pricy option here is the Jeff Rowland Concerto, which supposedly has a fantastic phono stage, but frankly, I'd rather go Plinius or LFD if I were you. Plinius will basically drive any speakers you throw at it. LFD is rated at 60 wpc or 70; although it will drive most speakers we are talking about w/ no problem, you should keep that in mind... Since you'll be going through the integrated amp for TV viewing, too, I'd recommend staying with solid state rather than tubes.

I'm also saving to land a TT in my system. The model I'm going for is Nottingham 294 with Ace Space 294 tonearm. It's one of the rarer tables which allows 12-inch tonearms. MSRP is $3999. 12-inch arms are supposed to have 25% or so less tracking error, but a lot of people prefer 9-in arms, too. But I do a lot of classical listening, and I've been told the 12-inch approach is the way to go, & Nottingham decks are known to sound very musical and warm w/o loss of detail. Another model that I was infatuated with was Kuzma Stabi S/Stogi S 9-in arm. My buddy has this one & it's a killer deck. MSRP $2800 or something. Really slick-looking, too, with that ingenious brass tube that serves as plinth? If you get this one, you should really put it on a wall shelf, as it's non-suspended. If the tax situation looks good & you can afford to spend a bit less than $10K, the Basis 2200 would be fantastic. Cartridge wise, I recommend you go MM or high output MC first, b/c most of the built in phono stages accommodate those only. If you want to get a low-output MC cartridge, you should really consider getting a separate phono stage or step-up transformer. As for me, I'm just going to go MM first for a few years... I already have a cartridge - Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood MM cartridge (read the review on this website).

CD/SACD player-wise, I'm pretty clueless, sorry. I think some editors in this magazine use Ayre c5xe as reference. I say go with speaker/amp combo figured out, and then get the source that synergizes with your combo.

Good luck & let us know of your quest!

Hi, Eddie. Perhaps Stephen Mejias who moderates this forum can move this thread to "Entry Level" section, where there should be slightly more traffic, too. He usually reads these so I'm sure he might go ahead & do so, but if not, you should consider sending him a PM.

Back to integrated amps: make sure to check in advance that the amp has a phono stage built-in! The onboard phono section these days is the exception rather than the rule. For example, among the list of amps, I don't think some of the models have phono inputs? For example, Naim Nait 5i, Primare I30, & Vincent. I don't think the Ayre or NAD does either. (I can be wrong on this... if so, other members will chime in to correct me, or even better, you should inquire & find out for certain.) Even for the Creek Destiny, Cyrus & the BAT, I think you have to buy optional plug-in phono stages at extra cost, which is at least more cost-effective than stand-alone phono stages.

Stereophile has a buyer's guide which might be available still at some bookstores. You can browse through the integrated amp section; it's very well categorized & you can look to see if the amps that you're interested in have phono option or not.

I also heard Exposure integrated amps have excellent phono inputs, although I think they're optional? Same with Unison Research Unico SE. Both are Class A components on Stereophile's Recommended Components.

Eddie,

I know you're waiting till after your taxes, but what are you considerring as a price range for the 2-channel system? As for Turntables, Linn just released the Majik LP12 a couple months ago and it's very impressive. It's the entry point to the Linn LP12 which has been made since 1972! And is still considerred a referrence TT. The beauty about the LP12 is that Linn makes upgrades for it as time goes by and find things that make it sound better. That's what I've decided to save up for after one of my coworker brought in his Fully Loaded LP12 or what Linn is now calling the "klimax LP12" and was just floored. Just let me know what's going on. And for your system, don't forget about a Good Audio rack to hold your system. It can make a difference in your sound too. That's why when I get my turntable, I plan to get Quadraspire's wall shelf for my TT. But just keep us informed and good luck

Hi, Eddie. My friend just got Ars Aures F1 speakers (the floorstanders) and just raves about 'em. I haven't gone there to listen to them yet, but he's got discerning ears & I trust his judgment more than perhaps any other person I know when it comes to audio & music, so I feel confident saying that based on his reaction, you should at least audition them while you're out here. Your wife will probably LOVE them... very minimalistic & beautiful, exemplary Italian design. $5100 - $5600 a pair, depending on finish. It's their entry level speaker, believe it or not. Another huge plus is that they're VERY easy to drive, unlike some other floorstanders. 89db sensitivity with 8 ohms impedance. My buddy drives them with Art Audio tube electronics to complete satisfaction, so you wouldn't have to worry about power at all, whatever you decide on. (Still, you should always think amp/speaker as a single issue, I think... but I'm probably being redundant in mentioning it.) So should you want to get into the twisted world of tubes later on, you can still keep the speaks. I think there's an Ars Aures dealer based in NJ -

http://www.landesimports.com/f1_new.htm

I also liked ProAc speakers a lot, even the cheaper Studio line was excellent. I think you mentioned that you value clarity before, so maybe you should also look into Martin Logan electrostatics.

Obviously, you also have our previous speaker recommendations, Devores, Vandies, PSB, Harbeth, Sonus Faber, etc. I don't know if you're familiar w/ NYC, but you can do a pretty good walking tour & within 1 afternoon, hear a lot of speakers & gear in between your wine breaks. In Living Stereo & Sound by Singer are very close to each other, & while walking from one to another, you'll see a lot of interesting places to stop by... should be fun! When you're at SBS, request to hear Pathos Classic MKIII integrated amp... really sweet, beguiling sound, and perhaps the prettiest design ever for an integrated amp: again, Italian! At In Living Stereo, they have Leben CS600, my integrated amp, which I consider one of the best integrateds out there... at least in my experience of auditioning, I heard the best music through the Leben. Here's John Atkinson's short impression of it -

http://blog.stereophile.com/fsi2008/040708proac/

Another take -

http://blog.stereophile.com/fsi2008/040708leben/

The only thing about the Leben is that it's a push-pull tube amp, and I think for your purposes, which includes TV-viewing, etc., solid state might serve you better... also, the Leben is 28 wpc running in EL34 and 32 wpc in 6L6GC tubes. This will definitely limit your speaker choices, as you'll have to make sure the speakers are efficient enough w/ relatively level impedance. That said, the Leben is known to drive difficult speakers pretty well. My Harbeths are 86db/8 ohms (not a difficult load by any means, but not really tube-friendly sensitivity numbers), & I have no problems... I can tell you for sure that the Devores will love the Leben, and obviously, some ProAcs. Spendor Classic series or other BBC-type speakers are known to be great with the Leben. I'm going to lug the Leben to my friend's house (it's VERY heavy) and try it with his Ars Aures speakers... I suspect they might be a pretty good match...

Audio Connection in NJ should be a stop, especially as John Rutan will let you audition to your heart's content. You can listen to ProAcs, Vandies & Harbeths there, all in one stop, as well as CDPs and amps by Primare, which I like a lot. The Primare CD31 is a gem, and Primare electronics + Proac speakers was one of the best combos I'd heard while auditioning. I really wanted to pull the trigger on that combo, but at the time, I didn't know my budget was going to increase... If I had the Primare/ProAc instead of Leben/Harbeth, I wouldn't complain, either. Especially as the Primare/ProAc had a gutsier sound... had excellent pace. But given yr musical preference - classical piano recordings (like me!) - you might prefer the Leben or Pathos... Pathos is interesting, too, because it's hybrid design: it has tubes in pre, but solid state amplification. So more power: 70 wpc, I think, and combines the best of the SS & tubes.

Hudson Audio in NJ should be interesting, too. You should give a listen to FJ speakers & Bluenote (another Italian brand) speakers & CDPs.

Google the names of these dealers for their websites & make sure you make appointments. When you make an appt w/ Sound by Singer, ask for a guy named Mike, who'll really take care of you... he let me audition gear when I went there, for a very long time, not intrusive or pushy at all. Have fun!

(One caveat: the Leben & Pathos do NOT have built-in phono stages... I just remembered you wanted one built in; as I've said the Plinius integrated amps come w/ high-quality phono stages built in, as do Jeff Rowland amps. There's an interesting integrated amp called Carat A57, and I have a college buddy who lives in Japan who uses it, says it has a good built-in phono stage. From what I understand, it's very affordable, and sounds fantastic. He's had Creek Classic before & he likes the Carat better. Great design, too, looks REAL sharp. Except that I haven't seen one in the States! (I think it's a French amp?)

Quote:
I am going to contact the moderators of the sub-forums and ask if I can post specific questions related to their respective forums.

Sure. No problem at all, Eddie.

Lyric has another store on Lexington in the 80's. Let me know when you're going to audition stuff and I'll tag along if I have the time.

Eddie... I'm going to keep telling ya.. Go REL for a sub .. if you want that sub to really do what it's supposed to.. they're the only ones who do it right. Infact, it's all they do is subs.