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"I have no sensation or perception of using any energy being calm. I find it to be my natural state, even in situations that most find exceedingly stressful. I am in no way tired by exposure to such situations."

THAT is why I used the example of 'temperature'. You will have NO SENSATION either of using energy when your body attempts to maintain a constant body temperature - it will happen automatically. Yes, it will appear to be your natural state. THAT is what I am trying to point out. Things happen automatically. The point I am trying to make is that it all takes place without you being aware of it !!!

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"I understand the argument. I also readily accept that you believe this. However, there is nothing in evolutionary science to suggest that we live in a constant state of unconscious fear of unknown, unrealized, unperceived things, fear which can be resolved through unsensed soothing devices which operate through wholly unknown mechanisms."

I didn't say that "we live in a constant state of unconscious fear". I said (with Concept 1) that our body is CONSTANTLY reading/sensing the temperature of our environment. It is programmed to do so. If it senses NO change in the temperature of the environment, then there is no energy used and there is no 'stress or tension'. If it senses something changing, then it will act.

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"I am only saying that the evolutionary explanation is without foundation."

No, Elk, there is an evolutionary explanation.

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"Yes, we possess an autonomic nervous system. It controls perspiration, respiration and the like."

We are getting somewhere !!!!!!!!!! We have a YES !!!!! Can we go to Stage 2 i.e further into Concept 1 ?

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"As I understand May, the hypothesis is that the body has an unconscious physiological reaction to the devices to which the mind responds, affecting listener perception.

In the past, May analogized this to a plant's response to the presence of ethylene gas.

Is this incorrect?"

My understanding is somewhat different from the words you have used, although we are travelling the same road.

You have to distinguish between your "the body has an unconscious physiological reaction to the devices to which the mind responds, affecting listener perception." way of describing it and mine. I can go into more detail of my thinking but basically it is similar to the temperature model of Concept 1. Our devices are not reacting within a vacuum, within an inert environment. If you could SEE the modern environment, it would be like a cauldron, churning and bubbling away with noxious gases. I think, Elk, you are seeing the modern environment as a sea of tranquility !! That our devices are supposedly acting in your sea of tranquility and that is why you think it is all "the placebo effect".

Can I use Stage 2 to take you further ?

Regards,
May Belt,
P.W.B. Electronics.

Instead of having brought "fear" into the debate, I guess we could have benefitted from using the term "alert" instead. This is the actual state where we sense things unknown to our conscious mind as far as I know.

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Thanks for the additional info!

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I really wish I could remember the name of the rare condition those who are immune to fear and pain (they can take physical damage without realising it is very bad for them and potentially lethal), that is where the test with comparable infants relating to this were really interesting IMO.

I know there are genetic conditions that prevents neurons from properly firing, preventing the person from feeling pain, temperature, etc.

I am not aware of this causing inability to feel fear - although I can see a relation in that one would not necessarily learn from experience that a bee sting or hot stove causes damage - unless the injury was severe. There wouldn't be pain to warn.

This is why it was interesting, this went beyond experience as the visual fall test was used on infants with the condition.
This comes back to my point that once infants can determine depth perception and/or discrepency such as crawling on solid air (due to not understanding glass so could possibly be argued fear of the unknown in some situations) they refuse to cross the deeper width, however the infants with the condition did not care.

Now it may be possible to argue the case about the infants still learnt about falling even when study was careful in infant selection.
But then there are other possible studies that tie in with predisposed fear such as the additional links.
This condition is really rare, from what I remember they do not feel pain even for lethal damage.
So their upbringing requires not only special attention but also some sort of cognitive training to help them adapt to various scenarios that can cause damage or kill them.

Anyway the study was quite awhile ago, just wanted to add that it may be possible some fears are not learnt from experience, as possibly indicated at a high level by those links.
That is not saying there is a wide range of instinct/fears applicable though to this mechanism, and I am sure more still needs to be done in studies.

Cheers
Orb

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Ah well if lucky it may appear on House M.D. its wierd enough condition

Thank you. Alert is the state you'll need to survive, for instance in the wild on your own. Fear will just get you killed. 1) You don't think rationally and 2) you keep sending out feromones or whatever they are called.

Transferred to audio listening, alert will let you hear everything you can possibly hear, but fear will occupy your mind and keep you away from any good experience(-s).

It is known that being in a state of calmness and collectedness, you have easier access to the subconscious mind, and all the information hidden there. In a state of the opposite (fear?) you have only one goal: To survive, and the most primitive part of your brain is more active than any other part, releasing lots of adrenaline. Not a good state to listen to audio, perhaps unless you like death metal.

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Thank you. Alert is the state you'll need to survive, for instance in the wild on your own. Fear will just get you killed. 1) You don't think rationally and 2) you keep sending out feromones or whatever they are called.

Transferred to audio listening, alert will let you hear everything you can possibly hear, but fear will occupy your mind and keep you away from any good experience(-s).

It is known that being in a state of calmness and collectedness, you have easier access to the subconscious mind, and all the information hidden there. In a state of the opposite (fear?) you have only one goal: To survive, and the most primitive part of your brain is more active than any other part, releasing lots of adrenaline. Not a good state to listen to audio, perhaps unless you like death metal.

It is my understanding through much experimentation and reading that the Belt devices operate because the individual is in a constant state of anxiety, for lack of a better word. I'm not talking about the anxiety we feel when we have a deadline coming up at work or the car just ran out of gas on the highway, but something that is deeper, more primal. Of course, we are not conscious of the anxiety I'm referring to, which is an inherited response to danger, because that is our normal state - unless perhaps we have the luxury of living on a deserted island somewhere. So, when we sit down and listen to music it sounds pretty much as it always does, not too bad. We are not aware of any anxiety since it is below the conscious mind. Yet, at the same time, there might be a little bit of suspicion, perhaps, that the sound should be better than it is. This nagging suspicion remains even as we improve things, obtaining better and better components, speakers, cables, room tweaks, etc.

Now, I know what you're thinking, what is causing this anxiety that's preventing us from hearing the sound properly? Well, there are a great many reasons for the anxiety. If there were only one or two then things would be manageable. Heh heh The fact that there are so many reasons for the anxiety is precisely why there are so many Belt products - more than 60! Each Belt device - by and large - addresses a separate cause or issue related to the type of anxiety I'm referring to -- the more of these various causes of primal anxiety that are addressed, the better the sound becomes. The sound is in the room all the time, we just cannot hear it fully or properly because the subconscious mind is continually detecting cues of danger -- let's call them [false positives.

Generally speaking, the anxieties are produced by the sensing of an INTRUDER, an interloper, a home invader. This highly refined sensitivity to DANGER that humans developed as a survival mechanism very early during the Dawn of Man allowed him to sense and react appropriately to the dangers of predators such as saber tooth tigers and bears.

Furthermore, it is the sensing of danger that produces the fight or flight response, AKA acute stress response, and this fight or flight response diminshes and distorts the human's sensory perceptions as his other skills such as escaping or fighting take priority.

As the listener is "reassured" that everything is OK, using Belt devices, that there's no imminent threat of being eaten or other danger, his natural primal anxiety is diminshed and his sensory perception improves. He does not "feel" anything as all this "inherited evolutionary behavior" is below his conscious mind.

"On the plains of the Kalahari you don't have to be able to outrun a lion, you just have to able to be a little bit faster than the slowest guy."

"You can't kill kill." - Charles Manson

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Thank you. Alert is the state you'll need to survive, for instance in the wild on your own. Fear will just get you killed. 1) You don't think rationally and 2) you keep sending out feromones or whatever they are called.

Transferred to audio listening, alert will let you hear everything you can possibly hear, but fear will occupy your mind and keep you away from any good experience(-s).

It is known that being in a state of calmness and collectedness, you have easier access to the subconscious mind, and all the information hidden there. In a state of the opposite (fear?) you have only one goal: To survive, and the most primitive part of your brain is more active than any other part, releasing lots of adrenaline. Not a good state to listen to audio, perhaps unless you like death metal.

It is my understanding through much experimentation and reading that the Belt devices operate because the individual is in a constant state of anxiety, for lack of a better word. I'm not talking about the anxiety we feel when we have a deadline coming up at work or the car just ran out of gas on the highway, but something that is deeper, more primal. Of course, we are not conscious of the anxiety I'm referring to, which is an inherited response to danger, because that is our normal state - unless perhaps we have the luxury of living on a deserted island somewhere. So, when we sit down and listen to music it sounds pretty much as it always does, not too bad. We are not aware of any anxiety since it is below the conscious mind. Yet, at the same time, there might be a little bit of suspicion, perhaps, that the sound should be better than it is. This nagging suspicion remains even as we improve things, obtaining better and better components, speakers, cables, room tweaks, etc.

Now, I know what you're thinking, what is causing this anxiety that's preventing us from hearing the sound properly? Well, there are a great many reasons for the anxiety. If there were only one or two then things would be manageable. Heh heh The fact that there are so many reasons for the anxiety is precisely why there are so many Belt products - more than 60! Each Belt device - by and large - addresses a separate cause or issue related to the type of anxiety I'm referring to -- the more of these various causes of primal anxiety that are addressed, the better the sound becomes. The sound is in the room all the time, we just cannot hear it fully or properly because the subconscious mind is continually detecting cues of danger -- let's call them [false positives.

Generally speaking, the anxieties are produced by the sensing of an INTRUDER, an interloper, a home invader. This highly refined sensitivity to DANGER that humans developed as a survival mechanism very early during the Dawn of Man allowed him to sense and react appropriately to the dangers of predators such as saber tooth tigers and bears.

Furthermore, it is the sensing of danger that produces the fight or flight response, AKA acute stress response, and this fight or flight response diminshes and distorts the human's sensory perceptions as his other skills such as escaping or fighting take priority.

As the listener is "reassured" that everything is OK, using Belt devices, that there's no imminent threat of being eaten or other danger, his natural primal anxiety is diminshed and his sensory perception improves. He does not "feel" anything as all this "inherited evolutionary behavior" is below his conscious mind.

"On the plains of the Kalahari you don't have to be able to outrun a lion, you just have to able to be a little bit faster than the slowest guy."

"You can't kill kill." - Charles Manson

I can't say I disagree. With this Generally speaking, the anxieties are produced by the sensing of an INTRUDER, an interloper, a home invader. I thought you were speaking of spouses, lol

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I can't say I disagree. With this Generally speaking, the anxieties are produced by the sensing of an INTRUDER, an interloper, a home invader. I thought you were speaking of spouses, lol

I hate to judge before all the facts are in, but I suspect you've got more to be anxious about from the air conditioner guy... if you know what I mean.

True! Not to mention the cable guy!

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Am I saying all man made products affect my preception of sound? What gave you that idea?

No offense intended. It was an honest question.

You specified non-organic as man-made. From your list of materials, including plastics, it appeared to me that you were listing man-made products that affect perception. The fact that they are man made is the common trait among them.

So, what man-made products negatively affect our perception of sound and what is the mechanism?

For example, is it your opinion that plastics affect our perception? How? What is the mechanism?

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What exactly should we be measuring? Is it possible we don't yet know how or what to measure in a new system?

Synergistics claims the Acoustic ART products directly affect the physical sound in the room. They also claimed these affects can be measured by conventional means. Thus, with respect to the ACoustic ART products, they should be making standard measurements, such as of a room's frequency response, decay rates, etc. before and after inclusion of the products. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Do you have a suggestion as to what else should be measured that would reveal the impact of the devices?

{Regarding evolution: There is noting in evolutionary theory that posits that a plant or animal will evolve to the point it cannot get sick, poisoned or injured. Rather, characteristics that assist survival and reproduction are favored by natural selection.)

Thanks, Geoff. Great summary of your understanding of Belt theory.

The phrase "a constant state of anxiety" seems to me to be a phrase well suited to the Belt concept of "signing off on the environment as safe."

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As the listener is "reassured" that everything is OK, using Belt devices, that there's no imminent threat of being eaten or other danger, his natural primal anxiety is diminshed and his sensory perception improves. He does not "feel" anything as all this "inherited evolutionary behavior" is below his conscious mind.

It is statements such as this that makes me think of fear. A threat of being eaten induces fear of a specific danger - not a generalized existential angst.

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the anxieties are produced by the sensing of an INTRUDER, an interloper, a home invader. This highly refined sensitivity to DANGER that humans developed as a survival mechanism very early during the Dawn of Man allowed him to sense and react appropriately to the dangers of predators such as saber tooth tigers and bears.

This is where the theory does not make sense to me on its face.

In each of these cases the invader or saber tooth tiger is consciously sensed by seeing him, hearing him make noise, smelling his foul odor, etc. These specific warnings provide specific knowledge that allows the person to react appropriately: Run,! Fight,! Investigate and see if it is a threat,! etc.

He can't react to "non-specific anxiety;" in these circumstances - he'll get eaten. Further, if he doesn't consciously know of the threat he won't act at all - dinner time!

Here is what I don't understand. How does the theory get from:

1) anxieties/concern resulting from specific sensed knowledge of particular dangers needed for survival,

to

2) generalized persistent anxiety of which we are wholly unaware which is triggered by various man-made objects, such as bar codes?

How does this leap occur? How does this second condition favor survival and reproduction for it to be evolutionarily favored?

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there might be a little bit of suspicion, perhaps, that the sound should be better than it is.

This has got to be an audiophiles number one fear!

One very important thing (IMO):

We don't invent windows and walls to gain or conserve more energy, we do it because we are cold, and because it feels better to be warm! The catalyst is well-being - as always. Same in audio and in everything else.

Otherwise an interesting example. It's very much a fabricated example, but never the less it shows a point, to which I have to agree. At least seen in the big picture.

Some people are more relaxed/calm/cool/collected/un-alert than others, but we cannot just click a switch and stop acting like the cavemen we basically are. We still have the reptile brain! Besides I am certain we still have all the same mechanisms as the proto human, some may be weakened, but I bet they are all still there.

Exactly, and I also agree there is a cost to coping in a very complex world. Just take a look at how difficult it is to have neighbours!

I accept for purposes of discussion that some experience a difference in sound perception in the presence of plastic packaging. I have not had this experience.

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Then how can we conclude I am expending more energy to maintain a sense of calm? Perhaps it just is.

To me, Elk, that is like you saying "How can we conclude I am using energy to maintain a constant body temperature ? Perhaps it just is ?"

No. It is not the same as body temperature.

I have brown hair; my neighbor, red. Neither expends more energy as a result of hair color. This doesn't mean it isn't without cause. We know it is a result of genetics. But as far as energy expenditure goes, "it just is."

Similarly, basic personality traits (e.g., calmness) have causes (genetics, family, etc.) but personality does not require expending energy.

Of course, someone that gesticulates with his hands and talks a lot spends more physical energy than the taciturn - but this is because of the movement, not the basic personality trait.

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And, if it cannot make sense of all that it is monitoring, then it remains under tension until it can. And, if certain things like SOME plastics (different mixtures of different chemicals) are actually presenting "danger signal" into the room, then 'tension' it is !!

I understand the argument.

But how do we know that the body is monitoring for unseen, unheard, unfelt, unsmelled, untasted objects?

How does it sense these things?

If this monitoring helps us avoid/respond to danger - how did ancient dangers (tigers, bears, whatever) trigger these unconscious responses?

How did ancient respond to these ancient dangers, sensed only unconsciously?

That is, what is the mechanism and how was this evolutionarily favored?

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You specified non-organic as man-made.

No, I did not "specify" non-organic as man made. Here's what I posted ...

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I said "non-organic" not "inorganic". Plastics are "non-organic" in that they are not to be found in nature in their present state. The herbicide RoundUp is considered through a parsing of terms to be an "organic" compound by its manufacturers. Yet it is a compound which is unnatural to the microbacteria in the soil, does not break down in the soil and has been tied to health problems in humans when it enters the water supply through run off. So much so that many communities have banned its use in non-agricultural areas.

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... it appeared to me that you were listing man-made products that affect perception. The fact that they are man made is the common trait among them.

I also said ...

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Nicotine is a completely organic material, as is arsenic, yet both are completely harmful to humans even in small doses. Are we then in agreement that "organic" does not necessarily mean "natural" or "not harmful"?

You are mixing up my words and coming up with ideas that do not represent what I have put in print. In that post I didn't "specify" any of those products affect perception and I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. Once again, here's the original post ...

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Does evolutionary biology cover the human reaction to petro-chemicals? They've only been around for the last hundred or so years. How about asbestos? It seems to be responsible for some rather severe reactions in humans no matter how advanced we have become. Even natural ingredients found in water suplies after the mining industry tops a mountain cause issues despite our evolution, no? So how do you suppose we as humans have evolved to protect ourself from, say, the microwave radiation that surrounds us virtually everywhere we go due to the emergence of modern communications systems? How about to the constant presence of non-organic materials in our environment? Isn't the transport of your digital player non-organic? When you opened the packaging do you remember the smell of plastic packaging? Why would that not affect your perception? Have you evolved that far beyond the rest of us? Have you evolved to the point you are not subconsciously aware of the electronic devices surrounding you? How about that remote sitting on the arm of the chair alongside you?

Do you see the words "perception" or "man made" in there? You see what you care to see and not what is present. Could this possibly be the root of your misunderstandings?

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For example, is it your opinion that plastics affect our perception? How? What is the mechanism?

Why didn't you simply answer my questions instead of asking me more questions? Why do you never answer a question I ask you?

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Synergistics claims the Acoustic ART products directly affect the physical sound in the room. They also claimed these affects can be measured by conventional means. Thus, with respect to the ACoustic ART products, they should be making standard measurements, such as of a room's frequency response, decay rates, etc. before and after inclusion of the products. Nothing out of the ordinary.
Do you have a suggestion as to what else should be measured that would reveal the impact of the devices?

Here's the rest of the question I asked ...

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What exactly should we be measuring? Is it possible we don't yet know how or what to measure in a new system? I would think a "neat" question to ask your friends is whether thay can think of a new system that required new measurement techniques. What do you suppose their answer might be? How would you propose we measure for a reaction to the "Compact Disc" emblem?

I don't know what to make of conversations with you, Elk.

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1. A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. " What are you doing? It is overfull. No more will go in! I don't understand."

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

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This is where the theory does not make sense to me on its face.
In each of these cases the invader or saber tooth tiger is consciously sensed by seeing him, hearing him make noise, smelling his foul odor, etc. These specific warnings provide specific knowledge that allows the person to react appropriately: Run,! Fight,! Investigate and see if it is a threat,! etc.

I already alluded to the fact that sensing can be performed by the mind - mind-matter interaction. In order to outsmart predators man had to develop other abilities -- in addition to the five ordinary senses. Perhaps you have not had the experience of knowing when someone is staring at you, but if you have you might recall how that works. You have the odd sensation, perhaps an anxious feeling, that someone is staring or looking at you, and when you turn around, perhaps absent-mindedly, you observe that someone IS actually staring at you. This is an example of a sense that is not touch, hearing, smell, vision or taste.

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Here is what I don't understand. How does the theory get from:
1) anxieties/concern resulting from specific sensed knowledge of particular dangers needed for survival,
to

2) generalized persistent anxiety of which we are wholly unaware which is triggered by various man-made objects, such as bar codes?
How does this leap occur? How does this second condition favor survival and reproduction for it to be evolutionarily favored?

It is an excellent question. The short answer is that the bar code is sensed (but not via the 5 ordinary senses) as an intruder (false positive). It is sensed by the mind. It is sensed not only by the listener but by anyone else in the room. Obviously, the bar code is not a real intruder. The reason a bar code is detected as an "intruder" is because the bar code is linked to a great many other similar bar codes in the world, thousands if not millions of them. The sum of all of the bar codes creates an information field, or morphic field. It is this field that is sensed. As if it were an intruder. Information fields, unlike electromagnetic fields, do not attenuate over distance. Cutting out the bar code and cutting it up - or treating the bar code appropriately - breaks the LINK of that bar code to the world-wide morphic field, reducing the anxiety a little bit, a noticeable amount, that the bar code information field produced. The more bar codes that are treated or destroyed the less impact the world-wide field will have on the listener - and the better the sound will become. On a rainy day there's nothing quite as rewarding as locating all bar codes in the house and either cutting them up or treating them.

Epilogue: A similar thing happens with a telephone book - the names and numbers in the telephone book are linked (morphically) to all other similar telephone books in the city as well as other usages of the names/numbers, e.g., bank statements, checks, etc. An easy experiment to try is remove ALL telephone books from the house, place them on the front steps or anywhere outside the building. Then listen to some favorite recordings. See if you don't think the sound is much improved. If there is any doubt, bring the telephone books back inside and listen again.

Ta-ta for now

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YOU, Elk, (as a scientist) should be telling US all this information.

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However I am a board member of the National Center for Science Education ...

http://www.ncse.info/

The way I understand this the NCSE is an advocacy group. Their intent is to combat - on a political level - the teaching and promotion of "intelligent design" - creationism. As a board member you do not need to be well versed in evolutionary theory. Is that right, Elk?

I'm not attacking you - being from Texas and knowing the convolutions of the Texas State Board of Education's far right wing(nut) politics I applaud the effort of the organization from what I see. But you do not need to be a "scientist" or even an anthropologist, sociologist or biologist to be on the board any more than the board members of a regional theatre need to be a director, actor or technician in theatre and in most cases are not.

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YOU, Elk, (as a scientist) should be telling US all this information.

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However I am a board member of the National Center for Science Education ...

http://www.ncse.info/

The way I understand this the NCSE is an advocacy group. Their intent is to combat - on a political level - the teaching and promotion of "intelligent design" - creationism. As a board member you do not need to be well versed in evolutionary theory. Is that right, Elk?

I'm not attacking you - I applaud the effort of the organization from what I see - but you do not need to be a "scientist" or even an anthropologist, sociologist or biologist to be on the board any more than the board members of a regional theatre need to be a director, actor or technician in theatre.

National Center for Science Education? Any relation to James Randi Educational Foundation? Hmmmmmm....

No need to be snarky, geoff. The center appears to be a legitmate group, just not folks who, as a group - certainly not in the case of the Board of Directors, have to be studying evolution. I think Elk eluded to that in his original message. My question was more to Elk's reference to his position within this group. Other than he gets to ask some cool people some neat questions, why should this be a credential for his understanding of evolution? I'm not trying to put him on the spot, just trying to understand his starting point when he makes statements like, "I have discussed the Belt hypothesis of 'unknown, unrealized, unperceived fears and their resolution through unsensed soothing devices' and the potential impact of such devices on human perception. There is nothing to support such an idea."

I do think Elk tends to misinterpret what is put in front of him and he also has a tendency to make up his own points of debate such as, "... while one may have a spider phobia it is triggered by the knowledge of a spider in the room."

I'm not trying to play any games with Elk, just trying to understand how someone goes about not truly understanding, not answering questions and then jumping to conclusions such as, "You specified non-organic as man-made. From your list of materials, including plastics, it appeared to me that you were listing man-made products that affect perception. The fact that they are man made is the common trait among them", when none of that has been stated and certainly none of that has been "specified".

With the same exasperation as May expresses towards Elk, I don't think a conversation can go forward until I have some idea how he reaches the conclusions he does just to tell me what it is I have (not) said.

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No need to be snarky, geoff. The center appears to be a legitmate group, just not folks who, as a group - certainly not in the case of the Board of Directors, have to be studying evolution. I think Elk eluded to that in his original message. My question was more to Elk's reference to his position within this group, other than he gets to ask some cool people some neat questions why this should be a credential for his understanding of evolution. I'm not trying to put him on the spot, just trying to understand his starting point when he makes statements like, "I have discussed the Belt hypothesis of 'unknown, unrealized, unperceived fears and their resolution through unsensed soothing devices' and the potential impact of such devices on human perception. There is nothing to support such an idea."

I do think Elk tends to misinterpret what is put in front of him and he also has a tendency to make up his own points of debate such as, "... while one may have a spider phobia it is triggered by the knowledge of a spider in the room."

I'm not trying to play any games with Elk, just trying to understand how someone goes about not truly understanding, not answering questions and then jumping to conclusions such as, "You specified non-organic as man-made. From your list of materials, including plastics, it appeared to me that you were listing man-made products that affect perception. The fact that they are man made is the common trait among them", when none of that has been stated.

With the same exasperation as May expresses towards Elk, I don't think a conversation can go forward until I have some idea how he reaches the conclusions he does and then tells me what it is I have (not) said.

Me, snarky? To be serious, it appears from what I can tell the NCSE has an agenda, that agenda is to discredit any point of view that conflicts with their own. To this extent, NCSE is no different from any other foundation which is promoted on the basis of Scientific Truth - e.g., James Randi Educational Foundation. This is exactly the basis of Elk's arguments - that his knowledge and interpretation of the truth and, by extension, the truth of the NCSE, is superior to other (conflicting) interpretations of the truth. For example, if someone mentions Sheldrake, morphic fields or mind matter interaction, I suspect there would be some strong disagreement - at a minmum, some dismissive pooh-poohing - from the anthropologists and evolutionists at NCSE. Kind of like Elk has done, acting more or less as an extension of NCSE. The next step for NCSE: go after controversial audiophile tweaks to prove that their truth is superior to the intelligent designers. Follow?

No, I don't understand how you managed to draw the conclusion the ncse "has an agenda, that agenda is to discredit any point of view that conflicts with their own" just by looking at their webpage. To debate this we're going to go off deep into the woods but you seem to be deciding what the ncse is saying just as much as Elk wants to tell May and me what we're saying when we definitely aren't saying what he's assuming. I would think any organization that output the incorrect assumptions and conclusions that Elk manages wouldn't stand a chance against the serious opposition present in something like the Texas State Board of Education who have a very definite ultra-conservative, evangelical (i.e., get Thurgood Marshall and Thomas Jefferson out of the textbooks and replace them with Newt Gingrich and John Calvin) agenda. Does the ncse have an agenda? Sure, everyone and every group has an "agenda" of some sort. Does the ncse's agenda matter to this discussion? I don't think so and IMO it's unfair to attack them when they are not on this forum.

Elk states he is on the board of the organization. No idea whether he has any standing on the board or is just a board member who occasionally attends meetings when he's not busy with something else. IMO it's a stretch to say you see in the group an agenda to discredit the opposition and, therefore, by "extension" of being a board member Elk is also in the business of discrediting his opposition. This is putting us back in Glenn Beck territory of if Hitler had a mustache and Mother Theresa also had a mustache it follows that Mother Theresa is Hitler; http://www.thedailytube.com/video/23769/nazi-glenn-beck-gets-gassed-by-lewis-black And this seems to me to be just another pre-emptive move to discredit any member of the ncse who even suggests what you want to believe might not be the whole truth. In other words, believe me and not him. Hellllloooooo, B/Beck!

I'm not defending Elk's positions or his decision making process but I think you're denunciation of the organization and by consequence Elk's desire to "discredit" ... ? ... whatever! is a stretch too far. Show me proof that Elk is acting "more or less as an extension of NCSE" and maybe I'll be more receptive to your argument. As is I just see Elk's mention of the ncse as another argument from authority that doesn't really exist or provide any credence to his words since his output IMO tends not to match the input that has been provided no matter who provides the input.

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The next step for NCSE: go after controversial audiophile tweaks to prove that their truth is superior to the intelligent designers.

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No, I don't understand how you managed to draw the conclusion the ncse "has an agenda, that agenda is to discredit any point of view that conflicts with their own" just by looking at their webpage.

National Review Criticism of NCSE's mission to Stamp Out Creationists in Schools:

NCSE Mission to Stamp out Creationism in Schools

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Does the ncse have an agenda? Sure, everyone and every group has an "agenda" of some sort. Does the ncse's agenda matter to this discussion? I don't think so.

Well, it matters when someone uses the argument that being a member of the board of an organization set up specifically to use Scientific Truth as a weapon to defeat the legions of ignorant rat bastards out there somehow gives him a leg up when it comes to arguing the pros and cons of controversial tweaks.

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Elk states he is on the board of the organization. IMO it's a stretch to say you see an agenda to discredit the opposition in the group and, therefore, by being a board member Elk is also in the business of discrediting his opposition.

Of course Elk is trying to discredit the opposition, why else would he be a member of the board?! He finally came out of the closet, as it were, and revealed his close affiliation to the NCSE, as if that's supposed to seal the deal in his attempts to discredit controversial tweaks.

OK, so you're using the National Review, which was started by William F. Buckley, to begin your attack on the NCSE. No agenda there, right? http://nrd.nationalreview.com/

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National Review (NR) is a biweekly magazine founded by the late author William F. Buckley, Jr. in 1955 and based in New York City. It describes itself as "America's most widely read and influential magazine and web site for conservative news, commentary, and opinion. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Review

Then you use an article written by John West to attack the NCSE. John West is linked to the Discovery Institute which has as its agenda the teaching of Creationsim and the abolishment of all "anti-religious" teaching of evolution. Do I have that right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qF9B6b2SVoI

Here's one of his articles (emphasis my own)...

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Who are the real proponents of hate speech on campus?
Supporters of Darwin

Uh? What happened to this, geoff? It was here just a minute ago, posted by you.

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National Center for Science Education's Shrill Campaign in Defense of "Evolution"

Monday, September 22, 2001
Contact: Mark Edwards 206.292.0401 x107 / medwards@discovery.org

SEATTLE--The National Center for Science Education (NCSE), a lobbying group whose self-described mission is to "defend evolution," has responded to scholarly criticism of the recent public television series "Evolution" with a series of shrill web postings that rely largely on mudslinging rather than science.

"Scholars have raised significant objections to the scientific accuracy of the one-sided 'Evolution' series," says philosopher of science Stephen Meyer, director of Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture. "These objections have been amply documented from the relevant scientific literature. Unfortunately, instead of engaging in a discussion of the merits of the criticisms raised, the NCSE has for the most part responded with red herrings and ad hominems."

"The negative tactics of the NCSE seem more like a political campaign than a science discussion," adds Discovery Institute President Bruce Chapman. "Far from alleviating fears about the credibility of 'Evolution,' the NCSE's approach merely reinforces our concerns that the 'Evolution' series is aimed more at championing a pre-determined agenda than impartially exploring evolutionary biology."

On its website the NCSE repeatedly claims that Discovery Institute and its scholars have misquoted or misrepresented various evolutionary biologists in their effort to critique the "Evolution" series.

"The NCSE's 'misquotation' claim is a strategy often used to protect Darwinian orthodoxy from scientific criticism," responds biologist Jonathan Wells, a Discovery Institute Senior Fellow who holds a Ph.D. in molecular and cell biology from the University of California at Berkeley. "All scientific theories--including Darwin's theory of evolution--must be
compared with the evidence. Darwinian biologists themselves frequently acknowledge that there are problems with the evidence for various aspects of evolutionary theory. Dogmatic Darwinists, however, believe in the theory so fervently that they don't like critics to quote their candid assessments of the evidence. So they claim that they have been misquoted, when in fact they have been quoted correctly."

"Apparently," Wells (see above) says, "the NCSE thinks that if the charge of misquotation is repeated often enough, people will eventually believe it. But anyone who looks at the original context of the quotations will see that it is the NCSE--not Discovery Institute--that has been engaging in a pattern of misrepresentation. It is true that the evolutionary biologists we quoted believe in Darwin's theory, but we never claimed otherwise. On the contrary, we were highlighting the fact that even Darwinian biologists often disagree sharply about what the evidence shows. The utter failure to cover these disagreements constitutes one of the 'Evolution' series' greatest flaws, since it is ultimately the evidence that determines whether Darwin's theory is true or not."

The NCSE's alleged "misquotations" by Discovery Institute include:

***Quotations from science writer Henry Gee pointing out the serious problems that exist for anyone trying to reconstruct the story of human ancestry from fossil evidence.

Writing in his recent book "In Search of Deep Time" (Free Press, 1999), Gee argues that conventional theories of the origin and development of human beings are "a completely human invention created after the fact, shaped to accord with human prejudices." Indeed, such theories carry "the same validity as a bedtime story--amusing, perhaps even instructive, but not scientific."

In an NCSE web posting, Gee reiterates his skepticism of attempts to trace ancestor/descendant lineages from the fossil record. "That it is impossible to trace direct lineages of ancestry and descent from the fossil record should be self-evident," he says, adding that "unfortunately, many paleontologists believe that ancestor/descendent [sic] lineages can be traced from the fossil record, and my book is intended to debunk this view." Gee goes on to say that his book was intended to show "that old-style, traditional evolutionary biology--the type that feels it must tell a story, and is therefore more appealing to news reporters and makers of documentaries--is unscientific."

"That is precisely the point we were trying to make about the 'Evolution' series," says biologist Jonathan Wells. "When it comes to human evolution, the 'Evolution' series was so intent on telling a pre-determined story that it neglected to include evolutionists like Gee who point out the difficulties in trying to reconstruct evolutionary history from the fossil record. This isn't good science education."

While confirming the essential accuracy of Discovery's quotations by his new statements, Gee inexplicably lashes out at those affiliated with Discovery Institute as "religious fundamentalists

Dear Jan,

IGIV Drug Trials have given much hope to those suffering with Alzheimers. Preliminary research has been promising in terms of atrophy and rate of cognitive decline.

Sincerely,

your pal.

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Uh? What happened to this, Geoff? It was here just a minute ago, posted by you.

First, what's the story with you and this Discovery Institute? Are you a member and now you'd like to turn the Stereophile forums over to a creationist/evolutionist debate?

Second, I still do not see how attacking the NCSE - particularly through articles written by the Discovery Institute - has anything to do with whether Elk has an agenda to discredit "controversial tweaks". I'm hoping this is just what you consider a joke or, at the very least, you thought better of posting this last piece.

I admit being a little torn about posting the last piece but I'm gald you saw it.

A little torn?!

It's propoganda! Meant to feed the mindless bigots who do not do their own thinking.

I thought you were better than that.

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June 25, 2010
Are Cells the New Cigarettes?
By Maureen Dowd

The great cosmic joke would be to find out definitively that the advances we thought were blessings

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It's propoganda! Meant to feed the mindless bigots who do not do their own thinking.

Your argument is very persuasive.

Remind me, which side are you on?

Don't smirk at me, geoff, you're the one who began all this with your accusations. Remember, I asked you that same question awhile back and I believe you said only that your comments may have been misinterpreted. Ever since that point you seem to have a bug up your butt about me.

What "side" do you want me to be "on", geoff? You're acting like a petulant little child who isn't getting his way. I haven't disagreed with your stance on any significant point regarding audio. I've disagreed with your conclusions regarding Elk and his attachment to an institution, they border on McCarthyism IMO when you know what someone is thinking simply by knowing (less rather than more) who they associate with. I've also thought little of your boogeyman "proof" the ncse has an agenda when you use decade old articles generated by and solely representing the opinions of a highly politicized organization to attack a group that in and of itself is not represented on this forum. I can see nothing in what you've presented from the National Review or the Discovery Institute to indicate Elk is "discrediting" your thinking, or that of any other individual, simply by his associations with the ncse nor can I find anything to indicate the ncse will be coming after "controversial audio tweaks". I do find propoganda to be distasteful no matter which "side" it comes from and I'm all for doing your own thinking no matter which side you happen to be on. In this case, I think you should have done some more thinking before you headed down this road and had to delete a post you felt "torn" about presenting.

Now, does that put me on the opposite side you would prefer?

.....................

Jan Vigne
All for thinking for yourself

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201006280008

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201006280008

May, are you suggesting we, as evolved human beings, have "X" amount of energy to devote to perception? If so, it is then your position that we are busy devoting "xy" amounts of that energy to receiving and decoding information not gathered by our commonly referred to "five senses"?

(BTW, how's your trip going?)

Since we apparently are drawing "sides" and building "companies" here, I wonder if eric is at all familiar with the Belt thinking. Eric, you would appear to be a candidate for discussion here since you seem to take a rational approach to your audio system.

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Don't smirk at me, geoff, you're the one who began all this with your accusations. Remember, I asked you that same question awhile back and I believe you said only that your comments may have been misinterpreted. Ever since that point you seem to have a bug up your butt about me.

What "side" do you want me to be "on", geoff? You're acting like a petulant little child who isn't getting his way. I haven't disagreed with your stance on any significant point regarding audio. I've disagreed with your conclusions regarding Elk and his attachment to an institution, they border on McCarthyism IMO when you know what someone is thinking simply by knowing (less rather than more) who they associate with. I've also thought little of your boogeyman "proof" the ncse has an agenda when you use decade old articles generated by and solely representing the opinions of a highly politicized organization to attack a group that in and of itself is not represented on this forum. I can see nothing in what you've presented from the National Review or the Discovery Institute to indicate Elk is "discrediting" your thinking, or that of any other individual, simply by his associations with the ncse nor can I find anything to indicate the ncse will be coming after "controversial audio tweaks". I do find propoganda to be distasteful no matter which "side" it comes from and I'm all for doing your own thinking no matter which side you happen to be on. In this case, I think you should have done some more thinking before you headed down this road and had to delete a post you felt "torn" about presenting.

Now, does that put me on the opposite side you would prefer?

.....................

Jan Vigne
All for thinking for yourself

Well, I guess we'll never know what's going on in Elk's mind as he appears to have gone the way of whatshisname, the dude with all the black ops conspiracies...Elk is not an unpleasant one, but persistent; not too angry, not too smirky. But definitely not on the bus.

"You're either on the bus or off the bus."

"Everyone has to be somewhere."

In all my years on this forum I have never been able to figure out what bus pass Elk has been using.

Perhaps Elk rides on top of the bus?

Or under?

Elk, are you out there? Could you explain a few things so this thread can continue?

Are we expending energy to maintain this monitoring and tension or is there some other mechanism you're referring to? The "stress chemicals" perhaps? If I understand the process correctly, we burn more calories when we are under extremes of temperature or in a tense environment. If it is just the stress chemicals, what are they doing that affects our perception?

Going back a ways to restart a conversation ...

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Is the unconscious mind involved or not when we perceive music and sound? Does it make a difference?

Humans are programmed to perceive meaning in music and we hear music even where it does not exist. Listening to a grove full of cicadas you can hear the rhythms, the call and response and the syncopations in the beating of hundreds of individual pairs of wings. It's doubtful the insects are aware of any of those elements we associate with music but we subconciously perceive those same elements we find in Charlie Parker to the harmonious consonance we hear coming from a bunch of bugs. Just as humans are programmed to see faces in inanimate objects; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/11/unexpected-faces-in-inani_n_609474.html we can't help but find our subconcious mind at work when we hear or experience what we call "Western music".

We're probably all familiar with the major and minor sound in music and possibly the effect of the "blue" note which was banned from music as being "The Devil's Note" due to its perceived effect on human desire. If you can listen to John Lee Hooker's syncopation in "Boogie Chillun" and not tap your feet, you're probably half dead. Moving from the I to the IV to the V chord adds tension while moving from the V to the I chord provides resolution to our expectations. Listening for the 1-3 vs the 2-4 beat might be an interesting experiment for someone familiar with rock and roll and certainly anyone listening to jazz; http://tripatlas.com/Downbeat Anyone using modes in music is playing on the subconcious associations present in all Western cultures.

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Dorian Mode; Songs written in Dorian mode sound a little melancholy ...

Phrygian Mode; Composers often find the Phrygian mode to be as useful as the traditional minor (Aeolian) scale, but without the inherent sadness.

Aeolian Mode; If the Dorian mode reflects melancholy, the Aeolian reflects despair.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-seven-modes-of-music.htm

If you've heard a cartoon soundtrack where the violins sound comical and later the violins sound menacing, you're experiencing the modes at work on your subconcious. So, does it matter? It can't help but matter.

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The problem, Jan, is knowing who CAN 'go along with' the concept of reading/sensing/monitoring the environment every millsecond.

Who thinks it is "most likely"
Who thinks it is "quite likely"
Who thinks it is "likely" Me
and Who thinks it is "not likely".

Because THAT concept is basic to further underswtanding.

I especially used the hypothetical story of monitoring the temperature of the environment to get across :-
1) A concept that soemthing could have changed around 150 years ago. In my temperature story, it was that the minimal fluctuation in environmental temperature changed 150 years ago to increased fluctuations in environmental temperatures causing us (human beings) to have to use more energy - because of how our bodies had been programmed by evolution. I guess we started heating our living quarters more efficiently. That changed our clothing habits and our habits of washing ourselves. If it have changed the way the body monitors the environment, no one knows for sure.

2) That someone's experiences of suddenly having more energy from inserting panes of glass cannot be explained by teh Food technologist's expertise in Food - however great their knowledge of food and which foods provide energy. Understanding had to be sought "outside their box" when others were describing having more energy !! Do you really believe we felt that change inside the monitoring cells? Don't you think we took off some of our clothes to stay comfortable instead?

This hypothetical example was to illustrate how it has it's comparison with the audio industry. How many who have expertise in electronics and acsoutics claim to know all about 'sound' and yet others are describing hearing changes in their sound which the 'experts' cannot explain !! There's no such thing as "know it all". Those people are all related to EW.

In my (temperature) story I used the example of having to use more energy to deal with a changed living environment but I am not particularly also implying having to use more energy now to 'deal with' the modern environment in comparison with 150 years ago. I think you should. I believe we use more energy as times change, perhaps not for those reasons though.

The crucial part is the basic evolutionary requirement of reading/sensing/monitoring our environment every millisecond of our lives !! Basic yes, but is it possible that some people have a very high threshold of feeling safe? Nor doubt are there degrees to this constant monitoring, but do you find it absurd to believe that there is actually people (daredevils, extreme snowboarders etc) who finds ALL the environments safe that they frequent?

Going back to my 'temperature' story.
For the body to detect a change happening in the temperature of the environment, a reference point - a reference memory of stabilitgy has to be there, in the first place - for any change to be registered as a change. (A reference point that changes all the time; I don't believe in a cellular memory concerning temperatures)

For example. For the body to detect at 12.00 that the temperature in the environment has changed, there has to have been a memory of the temperature being static/stable at 11.59, at 11.58, at 11.57 !! Otherwise no change can be detected at 12.00. Then, at 12.00, sensing a change, the body does what it is programmed to do. Namely withdraw some of the blood from the outer blood vessels, which people do to a very different degree!

Now, extending that concept to reading/sensing/monitoring the living environment in order to be able to 'sign it off as safe', exactly the same situation has to be in place - there has to be a memory of static, stable 'readings' !! Or just a feeling of being comfy and safe.

In other words, there has to be static,stable 'readings' at 11.57. at 11.58, at 11.59, and at 12.00 for us (human beings) to be able to constantly 'sign off our environment as safe'. Hmmm..!?!

MY concept is that, in the modern environment, there is TOO MUCH movement, so NO static/stable 'readings' can be established !! Again, for many of us, this could be true, but I don't think generalizing is fair.

And, as Nature dictates, via evolution, if NO stability can be registered then we remain under tension until stability c\an be registered. And remaining under tension means that some associated 'stress chemicals' will be created in the brain. I am certain there are people who are beyond this (=reading their environment as 100% safe).

To be continued (I can only get access to the internet intermitantly where we are centred on holiday).

Regards,
May Belt,
P.W.B. Electronics.

Keep on trying!
Regards Keld

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Dorian Mode; Songs written in Dorian mode sound a little melancholy ...

Phrygian Mode; Composers often find the Phrygian mode to be as useful as the traditional minor (Aeolian) scale, but without the inherent sadness.

Aeolian Mode; If the Dorian mode reflects melancholy, the Aeolian reflects despair.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-seven-modes-of-music.htm

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If you've heard a cartoon soundtrack where the violins sound comical and later the violins sound menacing, you're experiencing the modes at work on your subconcious. So, does it matter? It can't help but matter.

Slightly off topic, but what isn't on this thread-

I'm beginning to think people are losing thier emotional responses to musical modes. Recently I helped some friends pick music for thier wedding. They got married at the Basilica here in Minneapolis and were given a well-produced menu CD of all the music options that the staff at the church could provide for thier ceremony. To help them out, I went through the CD's and then made some suggestions. We then sat down to listen to the pieces together so they could hear the pieces I thought might work.

I played for them a number of pieces for the processional and recessioanl that were clearly in a Major mode. However they thought a few of these pieces sounded mad or angry. This really surprised me. I think they both responded to the orchestration and timbre of the pieces instead of the music's modality. They consistently thought that large, loud and tonally brash works, while still in major, sounded angry to them.

I think that popular music in general is moving further and further away from linking modality and emotion in the way other Western music does. My guess is that the musical modes may have some intrinsic quality on effecting human emotion, but much of it is learned and conditioned. It makes me wonder if we might someday lose our emotional reactions to Major and Minor modes in the same way the general population has lost its sympathy for the ancient modes of the Greeks and Mediaeval music...

Or if we're losing our (soft) emotions in general?