danielaparker
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Contemplating - Boulder 865, Sonus Elipsa, Ayre QB-9 USB DAC
RGibran
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Just curious if your dealer is offering you a 30 day in home audition with no questions asked money back guarantee on all the equipment you are purchasing?

tomjtx
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Dealers make a fortune on cables.
Go to the Blue Jeans cables to get well made cables at a very good price.
Many people think cabling is a scam, many don't. Controversial is the key word here.
I would suggest you get used to your system for awhile with BJ cables.
Then later you can audition the magic wire stuff and see if you think it makes a difference.
You just might save yourself a lot of money.

For speaker cable try magnet wire. I dumped my 3,000.00 cable for that.

And of course your dealer will think the gear she carries is better, she wont make money otherwise :-)

You can buy a used Logitech Transporter for about 1,000.00 which got a great review in Stereophile. That way you avoid the usb and can stream from the computer in another room.

struts
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Hey Daniel,

Welcome to the board! Sounds like you're on the cusp of getting a very nice system. Exciting!

Not too familiar with the SF Elipsas. Heard them sounding nice at shows but never listened to them 'properly', although I've owned two other much older SF models in my time and loved their aesthetics, build quality and their sound. However I am very familiar with the Boulder 865 and in my opinion it is an excellent choice as the heart of a really high quality but compact system. It is extremely well-built, exceptionally transparent and gutsy enough to drive most speaker loads with ease. It is certainly the value king in Boulder's admittedly premium-priced range, I just wish it had existed when I was building my system!

As a Boulder owner myself I also have to confess that I like their loooong product cycles. Check out the prices of pre-owned 500Es on Audiogon (if you can find one) and you'll see what the combination of premium quality and long product cycles does for their residual value. Reminds me of how Mercedes used to be.

The Naim equipment is nice too by-the-way, just seems to me to be more suited to people wanting to upgrade their way incrementally towards their ultimate system. As you kinda imply, how many Naim boxes would it take to match the functionality and sound quality of the Boulder 865?

I would also agree with your leaning towards a hard-disk as opposed to silver-disc based source on both SQ and convenience grounds - as long as you have 'reasonable' computer skills. If not, go for the X-05 (had the opportunity to audition it only last weekend - sounded great) and don't look back! The Computer Audio board below is littered with posts from computer laymen suffering huge frustrations integrating computers into their stereos. Hell, it even frustrates the heck out of the 'experts' at times!

As tomjtx states, if going the computer-audio route do take a moment to consider whether you want to have the computer in the same room as the stereo before deciding between a USB DAC-type source such as the Ayre/Bel Canto and a wireless streamer such as the Transporter/Sonos. Both approaches are valid SQ-wise but each has different pros and cons. I was an 'early adopter' of wifi audio back over three years ago and have plenty of scars on my mighty audiophile ass to prove it! With everything I've learned along the way I still think it is the best solution for me. In particular I would note that the fact it made our entire CD collection (along with internet radio) playable in the kitchen with a couple of taps of a graphical remote control is still lauded by THE BOSS as the biggest step forward home entertainment ever made in our house.

Regarding the Ayre vs the Bel Canto I haven't auditioned either but have read the very favourable reviews of both as I'm sure you have. What was the basis of your dealer's assertion that the Bel Canto is the "better choice"? If she doesn't stock the Ayre has she had the opportunity to compare it to the Bel Canto? Her answer and rationale may influence your level of trust for her which may in turn influence the amount of faith you are prepared to place in her advice on cables. If you are spending that amount of money on a system it would not be unreasonable to ask to borrow a couple of different looms (representing, for instance, different pricepoints or different sonic flavours) to compare in your actual system in your actual room and decide for yourself. IME cables are like spices, some are expensive and some are cheap, but at the end of the day they are just the seasoning on the dish and should be chosen to complement the main ingredients.

It is great to have a dealer you can trust, one you can just buy a system from and be happy with and save trying to chase down gear in different places, near and far, and never being able to hear it all together before you buy. Only thing is that trust has to be earned!

Good luck. Please let us know how you get on.

struts
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Daniel,

One more thing, regarding cables, the "last word" from John Marks (5th Element, December 2005):

Quote:
At this point in the evolution of the system I make a bold claim: Without doubt, our music lover will be better off getting his or her interconnect and speaker cables on the cheap from a professional and broadcast source such as Markertek, and spending comparatively serious money on acoustical treatments, than popping for audiophile-approved name-brand cables and neglecting room acoustics. (Markertek is a large stocking dealer for just about everything made by Belden, Canare, and Neutrik. Their custom-fabrication services are excellent. In-stock 3' RCA
danielaparker
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Hello struts,

Thank you very much for the feedback! I appreciate your comments on the Boulder amp, I'm now comfortable with that choice, and I expect to still have that component long after I've recycled whatever I end up with in wireless equipment.

I've been reading everything I can find on cables, and have to say that I'm still not that much wiser, although I was happy to come across Art Dudley's funny but insightful reviews,

http://www.stereophile.com/cables/804aq/index.html

(and I don't think I want battery powered cables!) I will keep in mind your comments in your other post, as well as those of tomjtx. I'll see if I can audition the components with different cables, to see if I can tell any difference.

I also appreciate your comments on wireless solutions. Could you tell me more about your wireless setup? Are you using Transporter or Sonos? Do you stream into a separate DAC?

There seems to be a slew of reasonably priced, well reviewed USB (or firewire) wireless products emerging - Ayers, Weiss, Bel Canto, Bryston, Benchmark - and I would have thought they would be improved sonically compared to the older Transporter, from my reading I don't see new competitors to the Transporter, not yet. Hence I thought, rightly or wrongly, that the Ayers being newer would sound better than the Transporter. I think I can live with a computer in the living area, I would probably connect to the Mac Mini, and I should be able to interact with that over a wireless network. Still, I would appreciate further comments.

My background is computers and software development, but even with that I am sure I will find aspects of getting this to work frustrating.

I did have an audition of the Ayer QB-9 recently, and liked it, but I'll have to go again with own ripped CDs.

Best regards,
Daniel

CharlyD
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Sounds like you're putting together an outstanding system Daniel! And you're getting some great advice. I was a little confused when you mentioned "streamer" and looking at the QB-9. Streamer to me means a device which receives and renders content streamed over a network, and a USB DAC (e.g. the QB-9) is an external sound card.

If you're comfortable with a PC/Mac as a key element of your audio source on your rack and aware of the labyrinth the bits from the hard drive must successfully navigate in that environment, USB DACS can be a great choice.

Have you considered the Linn DS line of networked audio players? These boxes use a system architecture very similar to the Transporter, but they are DLNA/UPnP compliant. This compliance allows the user to pick and choose other compliant elements as they build their system.

One of the key components in computer audio that I feel has not been addressed very well is the music library software. I've seen many complaints from classical, jazz or world music fans trying to organize their library using tools like iTunes. Some vendor in the not too distant future will deliver a sophisticated music (and other media) management package and, to address the largest possible market, it will be DLNA/UPnP compliant.

struts
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Daniel,

I am using Sonos, a decision that predates the release of the Transporter, by which time I was already three rooms deep into the Sonos system. In the bigrig I have a ZP90 feeding a homebrew DAC which replaced the DAC section of the Boulder 1012 I was using previously. The ZP90 makes an excellent digital source but its own DAC is not really of sufficient quality for critical listening (a ZP120 does us fine in the kitchen though). If you trawl around you'll find several posts here describing the evolution of my system and some photos of it over in the Galleries section.

I'm very happy with the SQ of this front end although I'm obviously confined to 16/44.1 'redbook' material, a limitation I doubt will disappear in the forseeable future given Sonos' clear focus on the volume consumer market. For that reason I have thought about replacing it with a TP on many occasions but have yet to pull the trigger for a variety of reasons (principally that it doesn't support 802.11n, I don't feel like paying list for something I'm going to use so little of the functionality of, and pre-owned TPs come up very rarely here and when they do the prices are not at all attractive). I expect the TP to be superseded sometime soon (maybe something new coming at next month's CES?) in which case I might pick up the new model or go for a pre-owned TP once the upgrade wave gathers some momentum and prices start to drop. However depending on timing I am probably more likely to add a wifi receiver board to my existing DAC, I know the PCB manufacturer has one in the hopper. Since I only currently have 20-or-so hi rez recordings this limitation is not really a showstopper. I listen to those in the study where I have a PC with a professional soundcard driving a headphone rig. For 'real' hi rez on the bigrig I always have vinyl

Just a thought but I wouldn't try to deduce the sound quality hierarchy between TP, Ayre and Bel Canto from their launch dates alone. The TP was highly regarded upon release and may well still be holding its own, newer is not always better. It could also be that the magnitude of SQ improvement between std rez and hi rez source material is greater than the SQ difference between any of the three playing std rez material. The problem is that availability is limited and your favourite material may not be available in hi rez now or in the forseeable future. So you probably want to ask yourself how much hi rez material you have and what you expect to do in the future.

I think the main compromise I see with streamed vs local computer is wireless coverage vs fan noise. The Mac mini is indeed fanless but can only accommodate one hard disk whereas for both capacity and redundancy I have chosen to store my music on a 4x1TB NAS configured as a RAID 5 array. Even with Western Digital's very latest "Green Power" eco-friendly drives with spin-down enabled, these still require fan cooling and hence the NAS must be kept in a separate room to the stereo. With wifi my problem is coverage. My appartment was built in 1904 and the solid brick walls are over 18" thick so even with 802.11n I still get coverage problems in the most distant rooms. There is a large brick fireplace and a service elevator between the kitchen and the router so there is over 5ft of solid brickwork between the Tx and Rx ends of the connection! I have a couple of Sonos Zone Bridges but still suffer occasional dropouts in the kitchen when a cordless phone rings or the microwave is on. Wish I'd had the place CAT5 cabled before we moved in. Oh well, you live and learn!

danielaparker
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Hello CharlyD,

Regarding Linn DS, I did talk to a dealer about the Klimax DS, but I decided to pass when I heard the list price was $22,000 CAD, despite the offer of a good price! Which DS product would you suggest that I consider?

Thanks,
Daniel

danielaparker
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Hi struts,

I did a little more listening since my last post. I listened to the Ayre QB-9 at another dealer, and I have to say I didn't enjoy it as much as the CD player with the Boulder and the SF's, impossible to control for the difference in equipment, though. While there, I listened to Mark Levinson reference CD, pre-amp and amp through Magico V2 speakers, going for about double the cost of my system, and didn't enjoy it as much.

Then back at my dealers, I decided to listen to more SF speakers, thinking actually of downgrading to the Cremona M, I mean, I could hear the difference in detail between the Elipsa and the M's, but I had to listen carefully to hear it, in some cases my dealer had to explain the difference. But then I asked my dealer if she happened to have the Amati, and she did, in an upstairs room, and I listened to those, and oh man, the difference was incredible. I couldn't afford new ones, but my dealer offered the demos at a slightly more bearable price, with full warranty.

As an alternative for a digital source, my dealer suggested I listen to the new Esoteric SA-50, comparing my sample CD's played on the SA-50 with the ripped CD through the SA-50's USB port. It wasn't bad, but the CD was better, and CD's on the SA-50 didn't sound as good as on the X-05.

My dealer suggested I should consider the new Esoteric DAC 07, when it's released, the 07 has 96kHz over USB, up to 192kHz / 24-bit input, 2x or 4x upsampling, DSD <-> PCM conversion, 32-bit digital volume attenuation, word clock input and output, AES/EBU, Coax RCA and Toslink inputs, balanced and single ended outputs, etc. In the meantime she suggested I buy an X-05, or alternatively take a demo X-03 for the same price, and trade it in at full value if I wanted the Esoteric DAC instead, once she had it.

So, the upshot is that tonight I'm home listening to a pair of Amati speakers with an X-03 CD player and the Boulder amp, and it sounds very, very nice.

I did think a lot about your comment about whether my dealer had earned my trust, and I think she did. My cables may be a little excessive, considering the other comments, but at some point I had to tell my dealer, do whatever you think is required for the best set up.

So I think I'll enjoy the system the way it is for a while, and revisit the source at some point, but judging from tonight, it's going to be hard to give up the X-03.

-- Daniel

struts
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Quite a journey! Well, congratulations, I'm genuinely delighted for you. The system you've ended up with should offer not just beautiful musical reproduction, but also considerable pride-of-ownership for a long time to come. All three products exhibit design, build and sound quality at the very top of the heap.

It's funny, but so often folks come here and ask for advice but ignore some or all of it (or more often cherry-pick piece-parts of recommendations that don't really fit together) and end up with something you just know is sub-optimal and will have them hankering to upgrade within a year. Your system is however IMO a great example of John Marks' motto "Buy it once, buy it right". It should not only sound dreamy, but with pretty much each component you are at the point on the curve at which the law of diminishing returns means you would need to spend going on double to get a really meaningful increase in quality. Hopefully this will temper any desire to upgrade* for a good long while

Your dealer has played a canny game which it would seem has resulted in a good deal for both parties. Some customers (like me and, I'm guessing, you) do most of the selling themselves and the dealer needs to just put the right products in front of us, support with the lightest touch of experience and guidance and most importantly offer a good deal with enough options to set our minds at rest and give us the confidence to pull the trigger. This is exactly how my dealer parts me with my money and we're both happy as a result.

Wishing you a merry, music-filled Christmas!

* I retain my bias for hard disk over silver disc btw and really like the sound of the trade-in option on the D-07 DAC. I wouldn't consider that an 'upgrade' per se since it's part of the original deal

tom collins
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i have watched this discussion evolve and it has been very interesting. i did not participate because i did not have any knowledge of the equipment you were considering although i have heard some sf speakers and it was instant lust. now that you have made your choices, i say, congratulations, now go and enjoy.
5 years ago, when i reentered the hobby, my dealer was an enormous help. the first item i bought was a high quality integrated amp (but not in the boulder league). because he knew that i would upgrade, that integrated has a separate "preamp out" set of jacks, so i am using it as a preamp with my recently acquired amp (major upgrade from the integrated). i will buy a dedicated preamp when i have the money, but for now, because this is a quality piece of gear (the integrated), i am very happy with the sound.
you mentioned that you thought the cables were a little extravagant, well, if that is what works, you did well to get them. wouldn't it have been terrible to invest that much coin only to be disappointed at home? don't look back.
once again, enjoy and season's greetings.

jtein
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Hi Daniel, I came across your post in AVguide forum and replied it. Looks like it ain't a happening place there huh? Oh wow, the Amati's! Wish I could get my hands on them but they are way beyond my budget where I live. Could you elaborate how significant an improvement is the Amati over the Cremona M? And how does the Magico V2 sound compared with the Cremona M because these are the two speakers I'm seriously considering.

Other than the Esoteric X-05, did you manage to audition the EMM Labs CDSA? I'm considering either the Ayre C5xe, the EMM Labs or the Esoteric so I thought I could get some input from you.

Many thanks in advance.

danielaparker
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Hi jtein,

I seriously doubt if you'll fail to hear stunning results from the M's in your living area - unless of course you happen to have a pair of Amatis in the next room and go back to compare But that's true of every component, I'd expect I'd experience the same if I listened to my Amatis through a Mark Levinson 512 and 532, at about triple the cost of my electronics.

While researching reviews, I found this comment by John Atkinson: "My recent series of reviews of floorstanding speakers has uncovered three outstanding performers, two of them from Europe

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