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milnoc
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if

I've just posted the "Bonus Rooms" video of the Salon Son & Image, which is actually suppose to be the last video of the series.

Bonus Rooms - Salon Son & Image 2009 (can't embed, I don't have HTML privileges)

I've been busy with various tasks at work, so I didn't have as much time to work on the complete video as I would have wished. Hopefully, I'll finish it this weekend, and will post it on YouTube on Monday.

KBK
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if


Quote:
Hi Frog,

The main intent of the recordings is to show the gear in the room. Under no circumstance should anyone evaluate audio gear based on a camcorder recording. It's just funny that what I've heard and what the camcorder has heard are often two entirely different set-ups. Some rooms are simply not recognizable anymore.

Last year's show was also at the Sheraton, so I'm recording inside the same type of rooms this year. In fact, some manufacturers have set up shop in the same rooms as last year.

Once the videos are posted, I'll also post a chart indicating the variance between what I've heard, and what the microphone has heard in the rooms where I remember what they sounded like. I'll definitely remember the rooms that have affected me the most.

Actually, you SHOULD equate what you hear on the camocrder with what is 'heard' in the room.

The Xindak room was set up by someone who's done 44 major films/productions, custom acoustics and custom anechoic chambers.

It should have the most natural acoustic of all of the room recordings, as this was specifically his job when setting up thousands of different individual spaces for 'sync-sound' recording off the 'set floor' for film work.

Interestingly enough, 3 years back we were contracted by Michel Plante to provide acoustics and room treatment for anyone who wanted such at the Montreal Show. A VERY nominal fee was applied. About $100 per day, was the rental fee for the equipment and personal set-up by a very serious pro. The kind of pro who does more than the high end audio crew when it comes to room work. This guy is the one they bring in to do the 'impossible'. Each time he's been contracted to do the 'impossible' with regards to acoustics, he has pulled it off. The clients knew they had a problem but not that it was impossible. So, few know the quality of work he has done..they simply don't recognize the impossibility of what is in front of them.

As for the offered acoustics packages at the show: Not one taker. I guess everyone likes shitty acoustics. Even in the Audio world, they don't understand. Yes, even at this level.

As stated, I'd be interested in hearing the Xindak room (824) as compared to others.

milnoc
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if

KBK, the Xindak room will be in the final video, but the piece that was playing at the time was not necessarily the best choice for the set-up. And unfortunately, I had no better clip of the room.

The Stereophile Debate Highlights sequence is ready. I now have to finish up the closing credits, the two "What's Wrong" segments, the home theater segment, and the narration. It's not over yet!

mrlowry
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if

The video coverage is WONDERFUL thank you for posting them to youtube.

milnoc
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if

The videos are all finished.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=F80ED34C4B423560

Worked until 4 AM last night (this morning). Nighty-night!

EDIT #1: Just a reminder to use only the playlist link to my videos. I've already made some minor corrections to some of the videos, and they'll be uploaded later tonight. Individual links to specific videos may no longer work tomorrow morning.

If you're wondering what I did, I've switched around two segments in the second video, and added a missing fade-out in the third video. The first video is all right, but it'll have to be reloaded in order to maintain the proper sequence of videos on my channel.

EDIT #2: The updated videos have been posted. You can now link to them individually if you wish. No further changes are anticipated.

michiganjfrog
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if

Good job covering the show, Francois. I listened to the bonus rooms video (which covers the upper floors, where most of the good systems were). The sound quality was nice on my computer, but even so, it seems everything had a canned quality to the sound. You can't really hope to evaluate these systems from this recording, given how much the sound is degraded by the recording. But that said, I would presume the recordings portray an equal degradation across board, and from this presumption, that a "bit" of comparison can be made. Taking three notable rooms who's sound (or the experience thereof) I do remember, there does seem to be a correlation with what I heard on the YouTube video and what I heard at the show (and reported, in the first post of this thread). The three rooms on your YouTube video are: a) Herald, which I found on the video still had great sound, b) The Totem room (I think you call it "Salon Musset"?, the one with the red home theatre speakers playing Pink Floyd on the video); which still sounded boring, and c) the Audio D'Occasion room (Room 711?) with the Thiel speakers, which even on the video still sounded strident. It should also be noted that the sonic characteristics of these systems did not change for me, despite the fact that you filmed those rooms when I was not evaluating them, and probably on a different day as well as time.

Perhaps people who haven't seen the show might get an idea of what I was talking about, if they listen to the videos. But if even not, the videos are great because they offer audiophiles who were not able to make the show an opportunity to at least get a taste of it.

I note for those interested in the Rossner & Sohn turntable, if it was not covered in these videos, it has been covered by someone else on YouTube who filmed it at the SSI 2009 show, if you do a search for the name.

milnoc
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if

While not included with the regular "Rooms" segments, the Rossner & Sohn room was included in the first "What's Wrong" segment. Yakkedy-yakkedy-yak!

The Rode Videomic I used on my Canon HV20 camcorder definitely revealed some interesting characteristics in certain rooms. The rooms were also very useful in revealing some of the microphone's more serious limitations.

An important note. What you hear in the videos has been slightly altered in post-production. The Rode Videomic is not very sensitive on the high end, and it can be a bit oversensitive on the low end. I correct this imbalance in post by boosting the high end and taming the low end just enough to better reflect what I was hearing in the rooms. The exact same tone adjustment is applied to all rooms; no room has received preferential treatment.

The area where the microphone correctly picked up room anomalies was definitely where the low end was overly aggressive, causing a "thumping" sound in both the videos and my ears! This included room 824 (sorry KBK!), room 715 (a huge sub in a tiny hotel room?), the Level 4 Mezzanine, room 722, and Salon Hemon.

Another area where the microphone appeared to correctly record the room conditions where in the very large rooms which invariably sounded tinny, or "ducky" as I like to call it. If there isn't a back wall from which the sound can properly bounce off, the low end gets lost and the sound becomes very tinny. These include Salon Drummond Est (in the part 1 video, not in the Bonus Rooms) and the hallway set-up just outside Salon 5 (the hotel atrium was behind it).

Being a shotgun mic, the Rode Videomic's most sensitive area is at the front. However, its second most sensitive area is just behind it, mainly in the low end. So if the rear of the microphone was located too close to a wall, it would pick up a ton of low end sound bouncing off the walls, making the room sound more boomy than it actually was.

The surround rooms, mainly Salon Musset and Salon Dickens (Bonus Rooms video), are the videos that sounded so far off from what they actually sounded like when I was there, that they're totally useless for any kind of evaluation. Even if many thought the Totem system sounded ho-hum, it definitely sounded a whole lot better than that horrible sounding room I've heard on the video! I'm debating whether the Rode Stereo Videomic would be a better mic to use for such complicated rooms. After all, we have two ears, not one.

And the final crime of my recordings is to be WAY TOO OFF-AXIS AND TOO FAR AWAY from too many set-ups! In certain rooms, the drop in the high end was VERY noticeable! Add to that being too close to a rear or side wall, and you end up with a very, VERY muddy sounding room. Unfortunately, if I got any closer to the set-up, the camcorder would not have been able to see both speakers. Its wide angle capabilities are a bit limited.

Recording the last two SSIs was a great teaching tool. I've learned so much on how a room's environment can greatly affect the sound quality of a recording, that if I do this again next year, I'll definitely get a wide angle adapter so that I can get closer and better centered to the action.

So thank you all for the positive feedback, and I'll see you again next year! Maybe.

KBK
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if

Actually it is correct to have a clean thump..wheras most rooms will produce acoustic mud in the bass area -like some sort of rattly refrigerator with issues.

Note that the speakers in the room have NO woofers to speak of. We are talking about a 4 inch woofer, here. No subs.

Yet the room produced bass. Riddle yourself that one.

Your microphone will also 'auto adjust' to the overall average level of the room. 824 had excess bass energy removed from it, and would produce an overall different level in the camera's microphone auto adjust system. (if all else was equal across rooms)

milnoc
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Re: Brief comments on the Montreal Audio Show (Son et Image) if

The microphone level was controlled by the camcorder, and not by the microphone. The mic can handle a maximum level of 134 dB, which is way beyond the level of any of the rooms. And since the room was not a multichannel room, the camcorder's ALC circuit was working properly in this case.

The piece they were playing in room 824 was essentially the source of the "thumping". It was an aggressive piece being played very loudly, and the drum beat was beating the crap out of the room, the camcorder, and my eardrums. So what you hear in the video is a reasonable facsimile of what I was feeling in that room.

I'm sure the room would have sounded a whole lot better if it was playing a less aggressive piece. Unfortunately, I didn't have any better recordings of that room.

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