Orb
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This the best tube amp performance McIntosh MC75
geoffkait
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"What stood out to me was some of the best tube amp performance I have ever seen, which potentially removes the concept that listeners love tubes for the distortion."

I knew there was something I liked about tube amps.

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Quote:
The 75th anniversary C22/MC75 have just been recently reviewed over here in the UK by hi-fi news.

What stood out to me was some of the best tube amp performance I have ever seen, which potentially removes the concept that listeners love tubes for the distortion.
Now I am not a tube fan myself due to it for some quirky reason reminding me of the old black and white Frankenstein films, but I can appreciate this McIntosh.

Here is a snapshot of some measurements, at the end I will provide a URL so if interested can register and look at all test measurements.
Bear in mind this is from November 2009 magazine that has not been posted yet.

This is for the amp MC75:
1) Distortion vs Frequency; 10W/8ohms 20Hz to 20kHz.
Worst distortion peaked at 20Hz and 20kHz, in both cases distortion was 0.1%.

2) Dynamic power output vs distortion
100W/8ohms - just above 0.1%
100W/4ohms - just above 0.2%
100W/2ohms - just above 0.3%

Downside is that it can only be purchased with preamp, and ofcourse limited edition (which will be a real shame).

Hopefully November measurements posted sooner rather than later for those interested:

Click register button and send email with name and email addr.
http://www.milleraudioresearch.com/avtech/index.html

Cheers
Orb

Yep, in general tube amplifiers raise distortion gradually so at lower power output the distortion figures are even lower. So goes the myth that all tube amplifiers are distortion producers.

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Quote:

What stood out to me was some of the best tube amp performance I have ever seen, which potentially removes the concept that listeners love tubes for the distortion.

this amp has nice distortion specs..so what. it does not negate the reality that we *do* love tubes for the "distortion", even order harmonics, "color", whatever you want to call it. This is the very same reason some of us are drawn to analogue tape(I have a 2inch MCI 8 track and a Nagra 1/2" 2 track that I use in the studio), vinyl, tube microphones, ribbon microphones, transformers, etc etc.

I love them all..but I know when and where to use them. I would not want a tube amp, for example, powering my mixdown or mastering speakers..I want to hear all the details, no euphonic sheen.

at any rate, yes, this amp seems to be well speccd...that being said, those of us who do love tube amps DO love them for the ways that they enhance/alter the source material... also... there is a lot of buying McIntosh products simply because of the brand name, heritage, etc...

a solid state amp can mimic tube saturation/distortion. I have never heard a tube amp that could do "transparent" as well as solid state.

anyway, I have , use and love both SS and Tubes. (especially SET topologies)

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Quote:

Quote:

What stood out to me was some of the best tube amp performance I have ever seen, which potentially removes the concept that listeners love tubes for the distortion.

this amp has nice distortion specs..so what. it does not negate the reality that we *do* love tubes for the "distortion", even order harmonics, "color", whatever you want to call it. This is the very same reason some of us are drawn to analogue tape(I have a 2inch MCI 8 track and a Nagra 1/2" 2 track that I use in the studio), vinyl, tube microphones, ribbon microphones, transformers, etc etc.

I love them all..but I know when and where to use them. I would not want a tube amp, for example, powering my mixdown or mastering speakers..I want to hear all the details, no euphonic sheen.

at any rate, yes, this amp seems to be well speccd...that being said, those of us who do love tube amps DO love them for the ways that they enhance/alter the source material... also... there is a lot of buying McIntosh products simply because of the brand name, heritage, etc...

a solid state amp can mimic tube saturation/distortion. I have never heard a tube amp that could do "transparent" as well as solid state.

anyway, I have , use and love both SS and Tubes. (especially SET topologies)

So no one produces a low distortion tube amplifier except McIntosh? Don't think so. Yes, many do by design but many don't.

Thanks.

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The Anniversary Editions are limited run items and priced accordingly. However, the C22 and MC275 have both been reproduced in the Mac catalog in recent years. The 275 remains in the line with every unit likely to be spoken for before it is built. The (matching) C22 can be found in the pre owned market as either an original or reproduction version.

In case you don't know much about this ampifier it is for practical purposes a reproduction of the original MC275 circuit from 1961. The circuitry of the C22 is very much like the original with improvements being made to the mechanical components. Electrically the two have been upgraded to include balanced in/out with single ended in/out remaining as the base line. For the reproduction items the triggered switching for other Mac components has been removed from the original '61 design.

The original Unity Coupled transformers are still made just as they were for the original amplifier and, according to Mac, they are responsible for much of the measured performance of the McIntosh tube amplifier line. The stated frequency response of this series of Mac tubes was measured 10-100kCycles before it left the factory. This response alone sets these products apart from many modern tube amps and pre amps. These products were and still are wide bandwidth designs with quite respectable square wave performance. Unless it has just recently been removed from the list, the 275 remains a Class A Recommended product.

Originals go for as much or more than new though the two smaller amps from the same series, the MC225 with EL34's and the MC240 with 6L6GC's, can be had for what most would consider bargain basement prices to have the same Mac sound as the 275 with the identical appearance.

I would say this makes the measurements of the combination even more remarkable when you consider this performance was avaliable to audiophiles in the 1960's when you didn't have to search for and pay an arm and a leg for excellent tubes. Of course, that is why the original MC275 became an icon of desire and turned on so many love affairs with hifi.


Quote:
I have never heard a tube amp that could do "transparent" as well as solid state.

And I would say I've never witnessed sand being as transparent or as lovely as the very best glass.

http://www.roger-russell.com/amplif1.htm#mc275

http://www.roger-russell.com/preamps.htm#c22

In the current Mac line up the MA2275 integrated offers simplified circuits of both products.

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/addpost.php

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"So no one produces a low distortion tube amplifier except McIntosh? Don't think so. Yes, many do by design but many don't."

Now that you mention it, I'd even take a high distortion tube amplifier. Geez, it's not like distortion is the overriding characteristic or anything. What's 0.5% or so among friends?

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Quote:
"So no one produces a low distortion tube amplifier except McIntosh? Don't think so. Yes, many do by design but many don't."

Now that you mention it, I'd even take a high distortion tube amplifier. Geez, it's not like distortion is the overriding characteristic or anything. What's 0.5% or so among friends?

And that is near maximum power. Lower powers can easily be less than 0.1% or even .05%, mostly low order harmonics. I don't know if I can take that high distortion Geof.

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So no one produces a low distortion tube amplifier except McIntosh? Don't think so. Yes, many do by design but many don't.Thanks.

who the hell said that? I sure as all hell didnt. Don't put words in my mouth, fella.

thanks.

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Quote:

Quote:
So no one produces a low distortion tube amplifier except McIntosh? Don't think so. Yes, many do by design but many don't.Thanks.

who the hell said that? I sure as all hell didnt. Don't put words in my mouth, fella.

thanks.

I think I just learned something new, don't trust the "quote" button. If A uses the quote button to copy the entire previous post B, and if portions of previous post B changes or vanishes, then it appears A's quote of B correspondingly changes. So one can quote a comment/post, respond to that quoted comment, and if the original quote changes, the response can appear out of context.

I was responding to a sentence with the comment one tube amplifier doesn't mean anything, a sentence that was removed/altered in NC's original post. I responded below.


Quote:
So no one produces a low distortion tube amplifier except McIntosh? Don't think so. Yes, many do by design but many don't.

Since you removed/altered the sentence in your post, it appears to have correspondingly changed in my quote of your post. So now my comment appears inappropriate. I will have to be more careful and take that into account when I quote from now on. That may explain why some here have been accused as putting words into another's mouth.

Take care.

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Agree its understandable why they chose this amp as their anniversary.

Hah I noticed I said 75th instead of 60th doh, ah well leaving like that as quite amusing hehe.
I guess Stereophile staff were biting themselves not to point it out

The review over here in UK was done by Paul Miller, who interestingly owns the MC275 for comparison.
Seems there is a difference and hope its ok to quote his verdict:

Quote:
For purists lusting after the originals, originals it must be: these enjoy too many refinements to be substitutes.
Perhaps these are what the C22 and MC75 would sound like had they never ceased production, and evolved along the way.
More important, though, than their limited edition status is their sound quality, regardless of their retro-appeal,for this is one of the finest I've ever experienced in my entire career.

Also a quick snapshot on his views in comparison to his MC275

Quote:
This is not to say that the MC275 lacks anything to diminish its status as probably one of the top 10 most iconic power amps in audio history.
But, damn, the Anniversary MC75s delivered far more than I expected.

Wonder how much of this is down to the incorporation of balance throughputs/KT88s, amongst other subtle changes.

Hope Stereophile gets the opportunity to review the combination, as its performance will highlight the capability of tube amp and their designs.

Have a good weekend all
Cheers
Orb

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Quote:
That explains why some here have been attacked as putting words into people's mouths.

yes, I originally mentioned one but thought better of it. my mastersound due venti is remarkably clean and has very nice distortion specs too, so yeah, I changed my quote.

SAS Audio
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"That explains why some here have been attacked as putting words into people's mouths."

"yes, I originally mentioned one but thought better of it. my mastersound due venti is remarkably clean and has very nice distortion specs too, so yeah, I changed my quote."

Thanks NC. I was somewhat amazed that when you edited your post, it also changed the quote in mine.

Take care and have a great weekend NC.

ncdrawl
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you too, Steve. no worries!

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Quote:
you too, Steve. no worries!

Interesting. It does or does not change if the quote changes?

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Quote:

Quote:
you too, Steve. no worries!

Interesting. It changes if the quote changes?

The line above should read "Interesting. It changes if the quote changes?"

If it does not, then in fact quotes backtrack in the database.

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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
you too, Steve. no worries!

Interesting. NOTHING changes if the quote changes?

The line above should read "Interesting. It changes if the quote changes?"

If it does not, then in fact quotes backtrack in the database.

And, conclusively, the original text remains in the quote in the followup article, the quote does not track the new text for the quoted article, which would seem reasonable under the database structure.

However, there is nothing to keep the quoter from changing the quoted text in any fashion whatsoever, as we can see in this article.

The only way to establish the original claim would be via the database. One hopes it does, responsibly, keep such copies.

Edited for typokinesis

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Okay, okay, back on topic...at least sorta...

Speaking of "vintage" amps, I recently heard a pair of the new re-issue Quad II Classic 11-watt mono blocks, and was mightily impressed. So much so I had a hard time getting them out of my mind.

Unfortunately, not enough juice to drive a set of big Dynaudios, otherwise I might have actually considered migrating from my beloved Conrad-Johnson amp.

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Don't tell anyone, but the MC60 is the best of the bunch.

SAS Audio
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
you too, Steve. no worries!

Interesting. NOTHING changes if the quote changes?

The line above should read "Interesting. It changes if the quote changes?"

If it does not, then in fact quotes backtrack in the database.

And, conclusively, the original text remains in the quote in the followup article, the quote does not track the new text for the quoted article, which would seem reasonable under the database structure.

However, there is nothing to keep the quoter from changing the quoted text in any fashion whatsoever, as we can see in this article.

The only way to establish the original claim would be via the database. One hopes it does, responsibly, keep such copies.

Edited for typokinesis

Well, NC freely stated he changed his post, and he confirmed what I read in his original post, so my original reply made sense and stands.

NCdrawal:

Quote:
yes, I originally mentioned one but thought better of it. my mastersound due venti is remarkably clean and has very nice distortion specs too, so yeah, I changed my quote.

It is possible that he also edited and clicked the "change post" button slightly before I clicked the "quote button". Let's not get too trigger happy before we exhaust the possibilities.

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