tintin
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Best Amp for B&W CM9 S2 under EUR 2000
bierfeldt
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Normally, I would recommend Rotel. Rotel and B&W are sister companies and generally are designed to perform well together. Check out Roksan. They make a darn nice integrated in that price range. If Rogue Audio is available, the Sphinx is a wonderful integrated. Creek has a 100w integrated that is spectacular at the very high end of your budget. All would drive those speakers well and it is up to you to decide which you like best. Musical Fidelity also has the m3 and m5 units and are great sounding integrateds.

The comment about half analog and half digital is confusing. An integrated amp is a power amp and preamp in one box. There is nothing that inherently addresses analog or digital sources at a base level. Now, many incorporate a phono stage or a DAC and often these internal units aren't as good as standalone external units but nothing says you have to use them. Take the Rega. It does have a built in phono stage which incidentally is surprisingly good, but it has no internal DAC.

tintin
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Hello Bierfeldt,

Thanks for your note. I hear you about the Rotel, it was the first one I tried - Rega Elex-R however sounded significantly better to me. What I like about Rega is the comfortable sound - can see myself working away for hours with it playing. I will definitely check out the other amps you have suggested.

Tried the Elicit-R over the weekend. It sounded much fuller; one can tell where the extra buck goes into. Its beyond the budget I had set out - do you however have an opinion on Rega Elicit-R combined with the B&W CM9s.

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I have owned a Brio R and had it paired with B&W M-1s. Not quite CM9s and an Elicit-R but there is an analogy here. I think they would be awesome together. Rega tends to be a bit warm while B&Ws can be a hair bright. They will balance each other out quite well. The one criticism of the lower end Regas like the Brio R is that it did not have quite the same bass control as other amps and if your aren't driving a suitably efficient speaker, the sound tends to thin but a bit. The Elicit-R should be able to drive those CM9s well and should sound full and rich.

One caveat though, I am heavily biased in favor or Rega and I very much like those CM9s and I know they will deliver a very pleasing sound that touches on my exact taste so I am not objective. That being said, the objective choice is Rotel and you didn't like that very much so maybe there is some value.

tintin
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Thanks, you have helped all but make my mind.

Whats your view of Elex-R with CM9s, instead of Elicit-R? Would I miss out on something?

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The reality is the Elex R is capable of driving the CM9s safely in that you won't damage the speakers or the amp. My experience is that a bit more power will cause the sound to be full and rich and a bit more open. This will become more obvious as volume rises but will be noticeable even at modest volumes. Second, with Rega, the Elicit R will have better control over the speakers and will deliver crisper, cleaner bass. With Rega, as quality improves it is most noticeable under 100hz.

A Bluesound Node 2 will attach directly and has an adequate DAC. The internal phono stage on the Elicit R is very good. To get a step forward in sound in the future, an external DAC and external phono stage will help out both. Something like the Musical Fidelity MX line or even the Rega DAC R and Aria Phono stage would show big improvements.

Good luck

tintin
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Hi Bierfeldt,

Thanks for your inputs. Have placed an order for the Elicit-R.

A friend of mine is giving me his old NAD PP2e Phono that he has offered - will use it for the time being. With the amount of money spent, keeping away from the Bluesound Node 2 for now - do you however recommend t he Rega DAC R over Bluseound Node 2? May upgrade later, maybe adding an AV receiver too.

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I am not certain that NAD will be better than the phono stage that is built into the Elicit R. I would tr both and see which one you like better but don't be shocked if you prefer the internal phono stage.n

The Rega DAC R is a better DA Converter than the Bluesound Node 2 in my opinion. That being said, the Node 2 does a lot of things like streaming that the DAC R doesn't like decode MQA and offer streaming services. They can co-exist nicely in the same system. You would run a digital cable from the Node 2 into the DAC R. I would start with the Node 2 and think about adding an improved DAC at a later time.

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Hi Tintin,
First, you picked an excellent turntable. The Linn LP12 is outstanding but can be hard to set up right. With the right accompanying accessories eg tonearm, cartridge, phonostage, etc the LP12 would sound absolutely wonderful. Since you have the Linn LP12 have you ever considered getting Linn DSM (either Majik or Akurate) and Linn amp and Linn speakers? I know these setup will be way above your budget but you will be rewarded with the sonic end results. Linn makes an entry level Majik DSM integrated amp but again will be way over your budget. One thing to consider. All Linn gears even their entry level offering such as the Majik DSM integrated would sound much better than those integrated amps mentioned above. Plus you get a really good quality streamer and DAC. Linn has been excelled in designing and making music streamer or master clock + DAC. Linn's master clock configuration and implementation is excellent.

Second, if I were you, I wouldn't get the B&W CM9 S2 but instead I would go for the CM10. Try to find a used pair of the CM10 (S1 or S2) if you could. The CM10 is way better than the CM9 S2 in all areas. The price difference between the CM9 S2 and CM10 here is only USD $800. The CM9 S2 is $3200/pair and the CM10 is $4k/pair.
The CM10 carries trickle down technologies from the 800 series Diamond. Outboard tweeters and fully decoupled midrange drivers using fixed transcuder bars. The CM10 also uses the same Mundorf crossover as the one used in the 800 series Diamond. All internal cablings and wirings in the CM10 are that of Van Del Hur.
FYI, I used to own a pair of the CM10 and they were outstanding for the money. I wasn't impressed with the CM9 S2.

Third, you picked the wrong Rotel integrated. Rotel and B&W always have great sonic synergy together but the RA 1570 wouldn't do your CM9 S2 justice IMO. The 1570 is more suitable for the CM5 or the 683 S2 IMO.
You would want the Rotel RA-1592 integrated for the CM9 S2 or the CM10. The RA 1592 is Rotel's flagship integrated amp and would perform and sound much better than the RA 1570 in all areas. Not only the 1592 has more power than the 1570 but it's more musical, more fluid, richer fuller and more full bodied sound with greater warmth and liquidity than the 1570.
Better transient attacks, speed, rhythm, transparency with more bloom in midrange area and more refined sound overall with smoother treble. The RA 1592 has a very pleasing and comfortable sound that will make you want to listen to music for hours without listening fatigues. I found the RA 1570 to be kinda fatiguing to listen for hours.
FYI, the RA 1592 is basically the RC-1590 preamp + RB-1582 Mkll power amp put in a single chassis. The RC-1590 is Rotel's flagship stereo preamp. The RA 1592 has good sounding DAC especially considering the price of the unit. I can't comment on its built-in phonostage. I would get an external good quality phonostage if I were you especially considering that you have the Linn LP12.

Tonally, the Rotel RA 1592 is on the warmer side of neutral whereas the RA 1570 is neutral and leaning towards the cooler side of neutral. Give yourself a listen to the RA 1592 with either the CM9 S2 or the CM10. They paired very well together.
But the Rega Elicit-R is excellent and I personally prefer the Elicit-R to the Rotel RA 1592. The Rega Elicit-R is more musical IMO.

Good luck!

tintin
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Thanks for the detailed review. I got the Elicit-R and CM9 S2s. Will consider CM10s.

I had a technician to fine tune the LP12, sounds much better than it first arrived. I am currently using a NAD PP2e phono stage to support my MC cartridge. While it is fine, a proper phono would make significant difference.

What are your thoughts on Linn Linto vs Rega Aria. Do you recommend another phono alternatively?

Fixing/replacing Linn Valhalla power supply will also make a difference. Which one should I prioritize?

caphill
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tintin wrote:

Thanks for the detailed review. I got the Elicit-R and CM9 S2s. Will consider CM10s.

I had a technician to fine tune the LP12, sounds much better than it first arrived. I am currently using a NAD PP2e phono stage to support my MC cartridge. While it is fine, a proper phono would make significant difference.

What are your thoughts on Linn Linto vs Rega Aria. Do you recommend another phono alternatively?

Fixing/replacing Linn Valhalla power supply will also make a difference. Which one should I prioritize?

You should definitely get the CM10.
In regards to Linn LP12, it is a very good turntable especially when paired with the right and good quality accompanying accessories. I would get the Linn Linto over the Rega Aria.
Linn is a step up from Rega....it's a different league actually.
You should consider getting the Linn Lingo power supply if you can't afford the Radikal power supply for your turntable. It makes big difference. What cartridge and tonearm are you using?

In regards to the Rega Elicit-R vs the Rotel RA-1592 integrateds, I think with the B&W speakers the RA-1592 might be a better match.
Again I've never heard the Rega paired with the B&W speakers before so can't comment. The Rotel and Classe would paired best with the B&W. But for the CM9 S2 or the CM10 the Rotel would suffice it.

After you get a pair of the CM10 and if you have bigger budget I would highly recommend the Classe's entry level series : the Sigma SSP preamp processor and the Sigma Amp2 stereo power amp.
They would elevate the performance and the sonic fidelity of the B&W CM10.

tintin
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Hi Caphill,

I believe the reason you are recommending the CM10s is - given I am willing to spend on Linto, Valhalla etc, the biggest difference would rather be made by CM10s rather than CM9s speakers - is that understanding correct? Whats your view on the Elicit-R driving CM10s, would they be adequate at least for a few years? Its seems silly to completely upgrade so soon into my purchase.

Found a pre-listened Linn Linto: https://www.marktplaats.nl/a/audio-tv-en-foto/versterkers-en-receivers/m1196460030-linn-linto-mc-phono-voorversterker.html

I am apprehensive buying such equipment from folks I dont know - can you make out anything quality etc of the Linto from the post?

Please let me know.

With regards,
Tintin

tintin
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The same questions about the B&W 702 S2 - would the Elicit-R be adequate for driving them?

caphill
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Tintin,
I've never heard the Rega Elicit-R paired with the B&W CM10 before so can't comment. I've heard the Rega Elicit-R paired with Rega speakers, Focal, Epos, PMC.
The Elicit-R is a very musical sounding integrated amp and Rega is really good in conveying the musical emotions. I would think that the Elicit-R would be sufficient and have enough power to drive the B&W CM10. Although the B&W impedances could dip below 3 ohms below 80 HZ, which can be challenging for some amplifiers.
The Rotel RA-1592 integrated amp will drive the CM10 with ease and might be a better match for the B&W.....don't know.
Sonically Rotel and B&W usually have great synergy together. Classe will also pair really well with B&W, usually the 800 series Diamond.

In terms of raw power and bottom end control and grunt the Rotel RA-1592 will outperform the Rega Elicit-R imo but I prefer the Rega and found it to be more musical than the Rotel. Not saying that the Rotel RA-1592 isn't musical sounding.......the Rotel is very musical as well but imo the Rega Elicit-R is better. The RA-1592 for sure has bottom end grunt and oomph than the Rega Elicit-R. Depending on your musical tastes.....what kind of music you normally listen to.
You can never go wrong with either the Rotel RA-1592 or the Rega Elicit-R driving the B&W CM9 S2 or the CM10.

Linn Linto is very good and you should buy without hesitation. It will pair well with your Linn LP12.

Are you also doing digital? If you consider having digital front end source the Rotel RA-1592 has very good sounding built-in DAC (Digital Analog Converter).
The Rega does not have DAC but you can get a standalone DAC or CD player or a streamer/DAC to go with it.

caphill
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Tintin,
I've never heard the Rega Elicit-R paired with the B&W CM10 before so can't comment. I've heard the Rega Elicit-R paired with Rega speakers, Focal, Epos, PMC.
The Elicit-R is a very musical sounding integrated amp and Rega is really good in conveying the musical emotions. I would think that the Elicit-R would be sufficient and have enough power to drive the B&W CM10. Although the B&W impedances could dip below 3 ohms below 80 HZ, which can be challenging for some amplifiers.
The Rotel RA-1592 integrated amp will drive the CM10 with ease and might be a better match for the B&W.....don't know.
Sonically Rotel and B&W usually have great synergy together. Classe will also pair really well with B&W, usually the 800 series Diamond.

In terms of raw power and bottom end control and grunt the Rotel RA-1592 will outperform the Rega Elicit-R imo but I prefer the Rega and found it to be more musical than the Rotel. Not saying that the Rotel RA-1592 isn't musical sounding.......the Rotel is very musical as well but imo the Rega Elicit-R is better. The RA-1592 for sure has bottom end grunt and oomph than the Rega Elicit-R. Depending on your musical tastes.....what kind of music you normally listen to.
You can never go wrong with either the Rotel RA-1592 or the Rega Elicit-R driving the B&W CM9 S2 or the CM10.

Linn Linto is very good and you should buy without hesitation. It will pair well with your Linn LP12.

Are you also doing digital? If you consider having digital front end source the Rotel RA-1592 has very good sounding built-in DAC (Digital Analog Converter).
The Rega does not have DAC but you can get a standalone DAC or CD player or a streamer/DAC to go with it.

tintin
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Hi Caphill,

Decided if I am spending so much money, go for the B&W 702s and run them till I have discretionary spend for the 800s or equivalent. While the Rotel 1592 gives higher power, will stick to the Rega - liked it much better. At the time for amp upgrade will go for a significant step up rather than incremental - probably tubes.

For DAC, may go for the Bluesound Node 2 - problem with that is once cannot really justify using it with Spotify. Would need to pay for Tidal or Qobuz - something I am not quite sold on yet.

I think enough money has been spent for the time being, lets not go crazy. Thanks for all your suggestions, helped a lot.

caphill
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I personally liked the Rega better too. The Rotel was very good but I found the Rega Elicit-R to be more musical. Rega is really good in conveying musical emotions, even some uber expensive gears still lack in this area. The Rotel RA-1592 definitely gives more power than the Rega.

I wouldn't listen to Spotify, I would do at least Tidal Hifi. Spotify is lesser quality than Tidal Hifi or CD (44/16). In regards to standalone DAC, Rega makes good sounding standalone DAC. Something to be considered.

If in the future you plan on getting the B&W 800 Diamond series I wouldn't pair the them with tube amps. You can get a tube preamp but I would get SS power amp to pair with the B&W 800 series, especially the 800, 802 & 803. Classe would be a perfect pair for the B&W 800 series Diamond. They are much more expensive than either the Rega or the Rotel but it is a step up in performance.

bierfeldt
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B&W 800 series was underwhelming driven by a very good tube amp. There may be units that will do well but PrimaLuna and McIntosh tube amps were poor matches while McIntosh solid state amp sounded great.

Rega' DAC is great. Another very good sounding DAC for the money is the Marantz NA8005 which can be had very inexpensively and is great sounding single ended equipment. Good luck

tintin
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Hi Caphill, Bierfeldt,

Thanks for all your inputs. Point taken about diamonds with a tube amp. I decided on getting the new B&W 702s (over CM10s). I think these will last me a while, and I can have a lot of what the diamond series offer at a significantly lower price. Unless you have suggestions, I plan to retain my Rega Elicit-R amp. In 10 years B&W may have an updated version of the diamonds, or tech may have completely changed.

As far as the DAC is concerned, do you recommend the Marantz NA8005 or Rega DAC-R over Bluesound Node 2?

Also looking for suggestions for CD players.

With regards,
Tintin

bierfeldt
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The Bluesound Node2 is a streamer that happens to have a built in DAC. If you buy it, you are buying it for its streaming capabilities and it is common to connect it to the external DAC.

I have not heard the newish Rega DAC R, I have hear the older Rega DAC. It is a very good sounding unit, no question. Not sure if is better than the Marantz NA8005 which offers a very nice sounding DAC but relatively clunky streaming beyond the built in services. I own several Marantz DACs and am extremely happy with their sound quality. You can get the NA8005 for $499 from Music Direct and if you don't like it's streaming capabilities, you could add a Bluesound Node2 for about the same price as the Rega DAC R.

Taking price into account, I feel like the Marantz is a steal and the way to go. Excluding price, I feel like Rega vs. Marantz are pretty similar quality and that is exceptional for the money.

For CD Players, you will want to attach the CD player to your DAC via digital cable, either Toslink or Digital Coax. If you get a streamer, make sure you connect the streamer via Digital Coax. For Transport, here are three good choices:

NAD 516 BEE for $299 - great transport for the money and aesthetically minimlaist.
Marantz CD5005 - $399 and would obviously match the NA8005 aestheetically if you opted for it.
Cambridge Audio CXC - $499 and is just a transport with no internal DAC. This should be the best sounding unit of all of these but they will all sound VERY good.

If you wait to get a DAC, the CXC is not an option. There are plenty of others but these are the three I would look at.

caphill
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Tintin,
It's funny that you mentioned the new B&W 702 S2, I just had a chance to listen to these speakers this past weekend. The new 702 S2 is a replacement for the CM10. The 702 S2 is better than the CM10 in all areas IMO.
The new 700 series don't use Kevlar midrange drivers any longer, instead the new 700 series uses Continuum midrange driver, the same material as the one used in the new 800 series D3. The new 700 series uses carbon coated dome tweeters whereas the CM series uses aluminum double dome tweeters. The bass drivers are different too. The new 700 series uses aerofoil bass drivers which is a tweaked version of the bass drivers material used in the 800 series Diamond. Basically, the new 700 series implemented trickle down technology from the new 800 D3. Sonically, I got to compare between the new 702 S2 and the CM10 S2. My dealer happens to still have the CM10 on display but they are getting rid of them soon. In comparison to the CM10, the new 702 S2 is smoother, more refined, more natural or organic sounding, more bloom and natural in the midrange, less sparkle, the bass is has more definition and articulate than the CM10. The CM10 was great but the new 702 S2 is better.
Both speakers were driven by the Classe Sigma 2200i stereo integrated amp.

In regards to the electronics, if you can swing it for $5500 I would highly recommend the Classe Sigma 2200i stereo integrated amp. This unit will digitize and analog signal fed to it. It has 2 USB inputs, spdif (coax digital audio) inputs, Toslink (optical digital) inputs and HDMI inputs. You don't need a separate DAC or streamer with this Classe Sigma 2200i integrated amp. It's capable of streaming any digital audio files. I would recommend using its rear USB input port to stream music and use HDMI if you have bluray player video gaming consoles or cable TV box. This unit does not have DAC, so any digital signal you feed it through will remain in digital domain all the way through the amplifier output buffer. There's no DAC. So, the digital signal will be converted to analog at the amplifier output buffer.
The Classe Sigma 2200i uses digital amplifier or class D circuitry. So the Sigma 2200i is basically a direct digital amplifier.
The sound was very resolved, fast, clean, transparent with great clarity, transient attacks and bottom end control. Classe excels in PRAT (Pace Rhytm And Timing).

So if you get the Classe Sigma 2200i integrated amp you would not need a streamer or a DAC but you would still need a CD transport and connect the CD transpot using spdif (coax digital) cable to the Classe Sigma 2200i.
The streaming capabilities and its digital sections performs and sounded better than any Rega or Bluesound or Marantz DAC. So, this unit is all you need. You just need to add a CD transport if you wish to listen to CD.

Speaking of disc transport, Oppo 103 or Oppo 203 are awesome transport and Oppo's digital clock are very good. You can connect the Oppo 103 or 203 via coax digital cable to the Classe Sigma 2200i.

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I am running my B&W 803D(2) speakers with the Primaluna Premium HP integrated with KT150.
The synergy is excellent.
For anything better I should spent at least 5 times that money... and might not get it. Go and listen one.

Just food for thought.

tintin
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Hi Bierfeldt, Caphill,

Been a few months since we exchanged notes. Thanks to your suggestions I have been enjoying my 702s with Rega Elicit-R. I have the Linn Sondek LP12 as the LP input, but no other inputs. Been considering a streamer.

The Bluesound Node 2 has been on my mine, but had a listen to the Simaudio Moon 280D with MiND module. While the Moon has a better soundstage, sounds deeper, more base etc; the Bluesound Node 2 was better at higher frequencies, sounded more fresh and was easier to listen to. I am given to understand a DAC integrated with a streamer will have less jitter and hence better. While I wanted to go for Simaudio which retails for EUR 2800 vs Bluesounds Node 2 which is approx EUR 550, IMO Simaudio's biggest disadvantage is it only streams Tidal and Qobuz. Bluesound Node 2 on the other hand is a universal streamer.

I feel I may just need a streamer for now, can add a different DAC (even a 280D without MiND module) later. Looking for your thoughts - BlueSound Node 2 or 280D with MiND? Additionally, do you recommend the Rega DAC R or other DACs over Simaudio 280D?

Havent been able to compare Simaudio 280D vs 380D (which has the mind module built in), though chances are 380D is better.

Thanks in anticipation.

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tintin,

Good hearing from you and glad to hear you are happy with the 702s. The Bluesound Node 2 is awesome for the money and I was looking at one. I have discovered that the two services I really wanted to stream were available via my xBox so I simply downloaded the Pandora and Sirius apps and opted against the Node 2 to go with my DAC.

For a single box, the coolest unit that I have seen is the Primare CD35 Prisma. Should be in a similar price range as the Simaudio gear. In the US I think it is suppose to list for $3K.

Simaudio makes a nice DAC. Rega does. So does Musical Fidelity and Marantz. You could easily get the Node 2 and add a DAC at a later date if you want from any of those companies.

tintin
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Hi Bierfeldt,

Its good to hear from you too!

I live in The Netherlands - a quick google search didnt turn up much in the way of Primare CD35. Will keep looking.

I am looking to zero down on the stream vs stream+DAC. My options are:
1. Bluesound Node 2: Advantage/disadvantages listed earlier
2. Simaudio Moon Neo 280D with MiND: Better sound stage, bass etc. Would this overall be recommended over Bluesound Node 2? The price point is in a different class. The same question will apply for Primare CD35.
3. Bluesound Node 2 + DAC (280D without MiND or another DAC): Is an integrated DAC+streamer better?

Thoughts?

bierfeldt
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I have no real POV on MiND, I have only used it once and that was really focused on a preamp rather than a DAC and interface. If it doesn't meet your needs, it is moot. There are other streamers out there that may meet your needs better. The Node 2 being the obvious choice and there are others from Auralic and Aurender.

Not sure if it meets your streaming needs but you might look at the Cambridge Audio Azur 851N or the Marantz ND8006. Reasonably priced, high quality DACs that would likely get an A rating where I think the Simaudio might inch close to A+ territory.

The Simaudio is an outstanding DAC. I "upgraded" my DAC from a Marantz NA11-S1 to a PS Audio Directstream DAC and will say that it undeniably had a positive impact on clarity and soundstage and I like the PS Audio better. That being said, these were both A+ rated on the Stereophile list at the same time. Others could easily disagree and prefer the Marantz. The point is, even at these much higher price points sound superiority is still a matter of taste. If you really like the Simaudio sound and have the budget, you will probably want that unit. Run a coax or optical cable to the Simaudio from the Bluesound and hopefully get the best of both worlds.

tintin
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So I spent an afternoon listening to the two, even bypassed the MiND modeule on the 280D with an optical cable to the Bluesound Node 2. There is a difference.

The Moon soundstage is the chief differentiator, the bass is better too. It is also aesthetically more appealing and would make the system/living room "look" better. The main question I am trying to answer for myself is whether the difference in sound quality is significant enough to justify the price difference?

Other questions:
1. I would not want to upgrade the DAC/streamer for 5 years or so, would the Bluesound Node 2 not enable me at somethings that the Moon (or another DAC in its class) would?
2. Bluesound Node 2 can stream to wireless speakers - if I decide to add those to the bedroom etc. No sure Moon can do that.

I can afford the 280D but wish to spend in a justified manner.

Leigh3443
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HELP REQUIRED
Good evening , I am new to this after 40 years ago buying my 1st turntable I have now gone back to old school vinyl ...I have purchased a Rega planar 6 exact MM cartridge with Rega elicit r amp and bowers Wilkins CM9’s.

I need the last ingredient of what speaker cables?
Thanks Steve

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