I'll take a stab at this one. "Audio Systems" / hi-fi's are many things - they are part science, part Art, part craft, part collectible, part objet d

Also, we are small. There are not many of us audiophiles, so there is no economy of size to help us. We should do more about that.

Trey

Quote:

Just like handbags...

Thanks for the perspective!

No problemo. That's what I'm here for.

Hermes Croc Birkin - retail $220,000

Paper bag 52lb. capacity $19.40/500

Quote:
Also, we are small. There are not many of us audiophiles, so there is no economy of size to help us. We should do more about that.

Trey

That's a very interesting point. How many audiophiles are there? How many folks are registered members of Audio Asylum - at least 25,000? Is that the correct number? Maybe it should be defined as the registered members of Audiogon, or the sum of the two. Do the lurkers count, too? Is there a much larger poplulation of audiophiles that's not registered on any audio forum or website? Are there 25,000 audiophiles or one million?

Do cheap DIY bastards count, too?

Quote:
Do cheap DIY bastards count, too?

"Yes, but only to 10, Mudhead."
(FT, ITWABOTB )

I am sure that there are many people who think that over $100K for a Steinway D is crazy, until you hear one or even have the chance to play V. Horowits' piano. I was lucky enough to do just that. We certainly enjoy our Steinway B 7 footer in our church sanctuary. I love playing that once in a while as well. It is worth every penny of the over $50K it cost.

There will always be manufacturers of anything that will play to those folks forunate enough to have fortunes. That has nothing to do with being able to enjoy great sound recreated in YOUR space for very little money, which is easily possible today.

I remember reading the CES blogs here and marveled at the expensive gear being described for our benefit. I will never own it, but that does not mean manufacturers should not keep trying to push the envelope to make better music playback gear.

I think value can only be determined by the one laying down his or her green for an item. An outsider can make a judgement, but that doesn't mean they are right or someone should not buy something. I would ask if anyone has heard a loudspeaker costing over say $25K that ever sounded awful? That might be hard to do.

I understand what you're saying and this is exactly my point. Is a $220,000 handbag any easier to get used to?

Why should hi-fi be any different from other stuff?

Quote:
I understand what you're saying and this is exactly my point. Is a $220,000 handbag any easier to get used to?

Why should hi-fi be any different from other stuff?

Hi Fi gear at those price points is supposedly different from a purse in your view of 'stuff.'

The purse makers do not claim superior "performance" in order to "justify" their price.

Hi Fi makers of 'fringe priced gear' claim to offer performance above and beyond that of the lower priced gear. Hi Fi reviewers pretty uniformly/unanymously note these differences.

Purse reviewers don't often publish about purse 'value' based on their performance vs. lower priced purses, but audio types do.

Hi Fi is supposed to be different from other 'stuff,' but I tend to lean toward your analogy that at those prices, it is just more expensive 'stuff.'

Sheesh Buddha for a Buddha you sure are testy.

Fancy faceplates, finish options, chrome chassis upgrades...there's a stuff aspect to hi-fi gear that has nothing to do with performance. It's an aspect, that's my point. And some people can and will pay dearly for it.

There are other aspects to hi-fi which I mentioned in my first post and performance is one of them. As far as reviews and reviewers go, I look to them to guide me toward things that are important. To me.

Quote:
I am sure that there are many people who think that over $100K for a Steinway D is crazy, until you hear one or even have the chance to play V. Horowits' piano. I was lucky enough to do just that. We certainly enjoy our Steinway B 7 footer in our church sanctuary. I love playing that once in a while as well. It is worth every penny of the over $50K it cost.

There will always be manufacturers of anything that will play to those folks forunate enough to have fortunes. That has nothing to do with being able to enjoy great sound recreated in YOUR space for very little money, which is easily possible today.

I remember reading the CES blogs here and marveled at the expensive gear being described for our benefit. I will never own it, but that does not mean manufacturers should not keep trying to push the envelope to make better music playback gear.

I think value can only be determined by the one laying down his or her green for an item. An outsider can make a judgement, but that doesn't mean they are right or someone should not buy something. I would ask if anyone has heard a loudspeaker costing over say $25K that ever sounded awful? That might be hard to do.

And when you have $8000 of equipment at home, and one day listens to a system worth $150.000 it can be hard to listen for a while, but on the other hand you might get new ideas of how a system might sound. So tweaky-tweaky is the name of the game

Quote:

Quote:
I understand what you're saying and this is exactly my point. Is a $220,000 handbag any easier to get used to?

Why should hi-fi be any different from other stuff?

Hi Fi gear at those price points is supposedly different from a purse in your view of 'stuff.'

The purse makers do not claim superior "performance" in order to "justify" their price.

Hi Fi makers of 'fringe priced gear' claim to offer performance above and beyond that of the lower priced gear. Hi Fi reviewers pretty uniformly/unanymously note these differences.

Purse reviewers don't often publish about purse 'value' based on their performance vs. lower priced purses, but audio types do.

Hi Fi is supposed to be different from other 'stuff,' but I tend to lean toward your analogy that at those prices, it is just more expensive 'stuff.'

Hey, let's face it. Hifi is NERDY!

I can appreicate why God put me where he did as I do not have to worry about the $100K system UPSTAIRS sounding "way better" than my cheap system in my man-cave. Down here my knuckles can drag on the ground and I don't know any better.

The comedian Tim Allen said it best,"The only reason man is walking erect is that someone put beer on the top shelf".

Quote:
I would ask if anyone has heard a loudspeaker costing over say $25K that ever sounded awful?

I've heard loudspeakers costing over say $75K sound remarkably bad, you could even say awful. And I've heard the same loudspeakers sound absolutely terrific. It all depends on many factors. With the exception of whether the speakers were properly broken in or not, those factors are unrelated to the speakers per se.

I heard loads of speakers at the RMAF that cost $25k+ and sounded awful.

There was one room on the ground floor that had some big horns that reminded me of the old Tannoy horns, i believe they were $45K, i would not have given $45 for them based on the sound, it was awful

Alan

Quote:
I heard loads of speakers at the RMAF that cost $25k+ and sounded awful.

Nothing sounds worse than a cost no object speaker design that misses the mark. Absolutely NOTHING

Much though we want to think the toys we spend all we can on are "special" and better in some way, they're just another commodity. What they're worth, or what they ought to cost, is governed only by what someone is willing to pay for them. Well, that's true as long as we have anything resembling a free market anyway. How long that may be is another topic.... not appropriate for this forum.

Just another commodity?

There is a highly specialized aspect to hi-fi - namely our enjoyment of it - which is anything but universally useful.

That said, those who focus on objective performance while disregarding personal preference may very well agree with you. And those who are infatuated with the stuffness aspect of hi-fi, the 'how much did that cost?' guys, may also nod their heads knowingly.

I realize that some might not believe it, BUT it costs real money to make the very best audio components. Just like a great auto, audio is not just fancy on the outside. For example, I want to remote control the MC cartridge loading for a new phono preamp. It will cost us over $800 each for what we want to use. We did not set the price, the industrial control manufacturer did that. Yes, it is just a precision industrial control.

John, I seem to have touched a nerve with both you and Michael. My apologies. The countless system upgrades I've made were based on my belief that I was buying quality and value - and I backed my decisions with auditions. I recognize that it costs REAL money to produce real quality. It's worth it to me to pay as much as I can afford to in order to get the quality I want. In the end, however, the willingness of the buyer is the final control. If no one is willing to pay the price the producer needs to get, the item won't be produced - at least not for long. (And please, let's not talk about automobile company bailouts). As I said, I'm only pointing to the simple governing factors in a free market.

Quote:
I realize that some might not believe it, BUT it costs real money to make the very best audio components. Just like a great auto, audio is not just fancy on the outside. For example, I want to remote control the MC cartridge loading for a new phono preamp. It will cost us over $800 each for what we want to use. We did not set the price, the industrial control manufacturer did that. Yes, it is just a precision industrial control.

You can spend money on whatever you like. It's "your" money.

Quote:
I would like to adress you all a question, altough I am almost sure it has been a subject of debate in the past here.

Why do you think most of audio systems are so expensive?

Is it beacause of the craftship, the inner components and the costs of production or is it because no matter how high, there are some people out there willing to pay the price?

Thank you!

The latter is mostly the answer. But this is the same with any hobby. Hobbies have two markets. One for buyers and one for sellers. The one for sellers is where you are going to find the really expensive gear. Nevertheless, both markets should be considered a "buyer beware" market.

I think what happens is some audiophiles may be put off by the smell of cynicism that emenates from some gear.

Maybe.

Hey Dixieland, no problem and no nerves touched. I was just pointing out that I do not agree that hi-fis are "just another commodity".

Quote:
The countless system upgrades I've made...

I think this helps support my point. How many times have you upgraded your hammer?

Michael, I think our apparent disagreement may be more a matter of semantics than anything else. Sure, my personal behavior supports your opinion, I'm a long term bona-fide addict where this stuff is concerned. I'll probably never quit until I go flat broke or the entire country lapses into a severe depression. The question is, how many are there like me (and maybe you too)?

I think that in the past, Stereophile has polled its subscribers and come up with their average age and average system costs for their major systems. If such surveys were done from time to time, my guess is that, for a number of reasons, both would be trending downward in recent years. Maybe someone here knows whether my guess is right or wrong. If I'm right, it would seem to support that the market is demand driven, and that demand is drying up. I rather hope I'm wrong because I think the existence of quality stuff I can't afford results in better quality stuff that I can afford.

Yea, I think we are closer to agreement than disagreement. In terms of the specifics of this thread, the OP was asking about the

Quote:
How many times have you upgraded your hammer?

I'm trading my Stanley for an Estwing. And I'm having Adrian Card decorate it.

Quote:

Quote:
How many times have you upgraded your hammer?

I'm trading my Stanley for an Estwing. And I'm having Adrian Card decorate it.

I have the hammer my grandfather used to crate up an injured bald eagle during the Great Depression to be shipped off to a zoo. It's a damn good hammer.

In truth, a German tool user might find a Stanley hammer a big compromise, compared to what he is used to. Ever use German tools? Quite a wake-up call with the best of them. Try Belzier for example.

Germans seem to make good products that nobody can work on. It's what lost them the war. Allies could fix their own jeeps and so forth. A piece of German machinery broke down it was abandoned. So much for good tools when nobody knows how to use them.

Give it a break, a REAL tool is a Godsend to a user. It is no more complicated than a normal pair of pliers, etc. It is just better made and stronger.

Where I come from if you start bragging about your hammer being the best hammer on the job site you're probably going to get shit canned.

That's what you get when you work with uninformed barbarians.

Wrong, Curl...dead wrong.

German tools(hammers, wrenches, etc etc) are no better than anywhere else. I lived there. I own a whole toolbox full of them(I couldnt get the good american stuff like snap-on, channellock, bondus, klein, stanley, INCRA, etc)...and actually, quite a few of my german tools--pieces of shit

Quote:
Germans seem to make good products that nobody can work on. It's what lost them the war. Allies could fix their own jeeps and so forth. A piece of German machinery broke down it was abandoned. So much for good tools when nobody knows how to use them.

they make good products in certain areas..but the idea that they are just automatically better in every category..well, it is fucking stupid. Barbaric, even.

they do cars well. and mics. (all audio stuff)

3 areas they excel...chemical engineering, automotive, and electrical engineering.

edit..the knives are great there too..Wusthof, Henckel, etc..ive been to Solingen many, many times)

but hell, my old timer that has been in the family since the 50s...itll cut the shit out of anything. from asshole to appetite.

"And music is necessary."
No argument there. No sir. And that is why we willingly pay those "high" prices for the best of he new vinyl offerings.

Quote:
That's what you get when you work with uninformed barbarians.

It was uninformed barbarians that murdered over 3000 people in New York. The dude that can care less what kind of hammer you have is the one that would save your life in a jam.

You guys amaze me, but then it just so happens that my best screwdrivers are Swiss-German, my cutters are Belzer, etc. The only tools that come close in the USA in my experience are Snap-On, and while they are good, they are not as good as Belzer. Oh I have plenty of Stanley, Craftsman, and even a large assortment of Chinese made hand tools. For the money, and for light tasks, Chinese made is OK. Craftsman is OK for my car(s) sort of, maybe, but a set of good German wrenches would be nice.
I can be upset for weeks, if I break or lose a Belzer tool, Never felt that way with anything American, except for a Snap-On tool, perhaps.

I showed a guy in special forces my Randall Model 1 that I carried. He pulled a Swiss Army knife out of his pocket that he carried. The moral of the story?

The moral is you did not have a magnum .44, a squint and witty retort such as "But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"

Cheers
Orb

All I had was that knife and a PRC radio tuned into a flight of A-10s circling nearby. Oh, an a half a canteen of water. The other half of the water was used to brush my teeth and clean my hair that morning.

A gross soldier has different needs than a Swiss Army officer.

Quote:
A gross soldier has different needs than a Swiss Army officer.

Touche'

Quote:
I am sure that there are many people who think that over $100K for a Steinway D is crazy, until you hear one or even have the chance to play V. Horowits' piano. I was lucky enough to do just that. We certainly enjoy our Steinway B 7 footer in our church sanctuary. I love playing that once in a while as well. It is worth every penny of the over $50K it cost.

There will always be manufacturers of anything that will play to those folks forunate enough to have fortunes. That has nothing to do with being able to enjoy great sound recreated in YOUR space for very little money, which is easily possible today.

I remember reading the CES blogs here and marveled at the expensive gear being described for our benefit. I will never own it, but that does not mean manufacturers should not keep trying to push the envelope to make better music playback gear.

I think value can only be determined by the one laying down his or her green for an item. An outsider can make a judgement, but that doesn't mean they are right or someone should not buy something. I would ask if anyone has heard a loudspeaker costing over say $25K that ever sounded awful? That might be hard to do.

Still, there is a lot of snake oil out there...when one sees what is in some of those $20K boxes, one has doubts as to the price. Not everything costing $100K is worth $100K (think that purse).

"There is a sucker born every minute" - PT Barnum

And the incidents of 'suckerism' seems to rise with the cost of the snake oil.

Quote:
never felt that way about anything American

if your posts are any indication, that is more a product of your being an Anti-American apostate than it is an indicator of the tool quality.

Q. Is a thing's worth restricted to how much it costs?
A. No.

Q. Is a hi-fi like a hammer? Simply a tool for getting a job done?
A. No.

Q. Can we determine the value of a hi-fi by its price and parts cost alone?
A. No.

Q. What makes a hi-fi like a handbag?
A. They are both things you buy with discretionary income.

Q. Why are hi-fis and handbags so expensive?
A. Some people feel things are expensive because they don't understand the reasons people can and will pay what they pay for the stuff they decide to buy.

Q. Are people suckers when they spend more on discretionary items than we do on necessities?
A. No, they just have more money than we do and I think it makes some people feel better about that fact to think of these people with more money as suckers.

Q. But what about all those silly tweaks and cosmetic upgrades that have no measurable impact on the hi-fi or the room or the combination?
A. Their impact is on the person who bought it.

Q. Aren

Q- What do the words worth, value, expensive, silly, and sucker mean?

A- It depends on who you are.

Q- What does the word freedom mean?

A- You get to decide for yourself.... and so does everyone else

Well yea, I suppose. But the meaning of those words don't change with the person, the application does.

I thought freedom was just another word for nothin left to lose... ;-)

Now it's time exert some of mine and go outside and enjoy the day.

Quote:
Q- What do the words worth, value, expensive, silly, and sucker mean?

A- It depends on who you are.

Q- What does the word freedom mean?

A- You get to decide for yourself.... and so does everyone else

But under that freedom one also gets to note then the Emperor is Naked....Like that Oppo in the Lexicon...