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michael green
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comment to Jgossman

J said

"So all the effort Sony, Nakamichi, JVC, etc. put into getting S/N ratio to levels exceeding that of most CDP's (around 89db - approaching that of the associated solid state electronics) and the effort Nakamichi put toward surpassing R2R wow and flutter numbers, which they had done on pretty much all decks by the mid 80's and were nearing unmeasurable by the 90's - that was all for naught? All that had nothing to do with the depth and width of the sound stage of say a Nakamichi LX-5 or the power and dynamics of a Tascam 122?

I'm happy you found the joy's of the "lowly" (said with a dose of irony) cassette, but this is an exercise in futility if you'd rather listen to tapes on your walkman than my old (and sold :( ) LX-5, the 480 I'm repairing, or my once mighty 581 which has unfortunately become a parts deck (it is nearly 40 years old). Or for that matter the lowly low end Sony now in my system or the Technics M7 I'm restoring.

I understand the joy of discovering something is better than it should be, but being skeptical of something that is clearly better? I don't get it."

You've mentioned some great units, that have shaped the playback hobby. Impressive! looks like a whole lotta fun.

As far as Geoff goes. I'm not sure why he keeps doing the same thing but I see that happen in this hobby a lot. One thing I would absolutely not do in this type of hobby is make crazy statements when there are people who have him out gunned by a long shot in experience.

Anyway thanks for sharing some of your decks with us! Brings back good memories. The M7 is another one I'd like to strip down and tune. One problem though tuning tape machines in the desert is the darn dust. Technics is another one of those companies that did some great stuff. Did a couple of vintage Technics and Pioneer systems not long ago, pretty sweet. Wonderful mid to low bass and smooth on top. Very easy to work with in what I do.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
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CD's

Hi David

We're thinking about putting in a full tunable system here in vegas, complete with our tunable room. When it's up and running I invite you to come visit. It's easier to show some of this stuff than talk about it.

The words "better equipment" is something fairly twisted in this industry and hobby.

I have several players here and am always previewing others, feel free to look at my equipment lists. I don't see eye to eye with the good better best lists of the high end marketers. I also have never found something that is better not being able to play more. Audiophiles have set themselves up as the judges without really doing these listening tests in adequate settings. The whole revealing thing is a myth. If your system is not playing the real space real size there is no way it is revealing the music. Physically impossible. I'm telling you this as someone in the recording and playback biz. Check out http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code .

Your welcome to come to TuneLand and talk to listeners who had your experience in the past and you can ask them why their views were changed as well as how much music they are hearing now vs before.

David, let me ask you something. Why would the music industry make CD's if they didn't perform? What does it benefit? If you have something that doesn't sound right that's when you should get an expert involved, not some audiophile joe shmoe. Here's what I have learned and the purpose of this thread or any other I am on. If a system is out of tune it will play part of the music, but in tune (the purpose of this thread) and problem solved. Has nothing to do with the Stereophile recommended component classes or any others. When you compare stock systems at best your going to get 10% of the recording, no matter what system you have. This is well documented.

This is fact, high end audio has been mixing and matching for 30 years now in a circle. Heated debates without anyone getting closer, why? Because they aren't dealing with the fact that all recordings have a different code from all other recordings. I'm not talking about what the engineer did in the studio but what people are doing in the playback. The studio is another issue, and another field to tackle. Fact is you could take your 100 best sounding recordings, and play them on any other high end audio system in the world and you would say "yuk" to at least half of them. Now you can say "there's something wrong with their system" or you could realize this happen because their system is tuned differently than yours. I'm not joking pick out your best 100 recordings and go then report back. You will hear their system sounding completely different to yours. At that point how can you then blame it on the recording?

Why do you guys think I started a thread on here "lets do some referencing"? And why do you think everyone is afraid to come up and post on? The best thing this industry could do is start referencing and hear for themselves how dramitically different these systems sound. Now do you blame this on the recording David? You can't and so can't anyone else.

It's not me, believe me, trying to be mean. I'm just trying to get you guys to wake up and see that every recording is different and every system is different and that means the recorded code is being played differently. Pretty basic stuff here guys. No need to turn it into anything other than what it is.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code

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another A+

Another post from Jgossman.

"But it never lessened my enjoyment of my CD's. My Arcam CD 72, another unit I wish I'd never sold, really made some recordings sound pretty terrible compared to the Denon DCD 1520 (I think) that I was using before. That said, the best recordings I had met and sometimes surpassed the commercial release on both LP and cassette via both my Nak's. It was a VERY good CD player. And one day I may get another now that they are cheap. It's nice when a unit is so good that it becomes THE ubiquitous audiophile player. When you want one used, there are hundreds for sale at any given time!

Just because we all (almost) agree that the cassette and LP are often superior to CD doesn't mean you abandon the format. That would be silly"

You got to wonder why guys aren't listening to their own ears. Fact is Jgossman talking about something important. Lps, cassettes, or Cd's your all finding that in all these cases there is no set "this one format is better" with a blanket statement, with the exception of our friend Geoff, who is saying stuff for completely different reasons. Jgossman might be leaning toward the tape and vinyl, but there's a bigger message hear. Again I like all three.

We need to as a community start working together toward the facts. For those who keep saying "it's not all about tuning" I think the day will come when you will be saying and supporting the oposite. This industry is screwed up, and screwed into thinking in fixed ways, when the answer is so much easier and easier to teach yourself.

Try with me again, and read other posts like this one that is telling you the answer if you listen to it.

One simple question guys.

Why does your music sound different on any other system besides your own?

next question

Why can't you play the same pieces of music on your setup that sound great on your friends? (having them sound the same)

Why can't your system play the entire space of the recording?

What is it about your system that won't let it play "the real space" of a recording? (why is it a shrunking version)

We need to start exploring this together, cause the answers aren't nearly as tough as this industry is making them out to be.

Thanks for your comments again Jgossman!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Totally irrelevant arguments
iosiP wrote:

You wrote

Quote:

Here we go: no transformers, no capacitors, no big motors, full range transducers I.e., no crossovers in the earphone drivers, very lightweight transducers for lightning fast transient response, no cabling, no electronics boxes, no chassis, no house power, no ground so no ground issues, relative immunity to RFI/EMI, no room anomalies to worry Po me anymore, no thin, bass shy, tizzy synthetic CD sound due to a while raft of ills, including scattered laser light, out of round CDs, no seismic isolation, etc. etc., etc.

Now let me see:
1. A cassette deck has transformers, so it should sound worse than the walkman (FIY, a 3-motor deck requires a bigger transformer than your usual CD player).
2. A 3-motor deck has "more motor" than a CD player, so it should sound worse than the walkman.
3. Full-range transducers? For me, full range means 20Hz to 20kHz. How does an organ concert sound on the earphones, and what "dynamics" can you get from them??
4. Yes you are right about the rest but my argument still stands: if a cassette deck (with all the transformers, capacitors, motors, cabling, electronics boxes, chassis, house power, ground etc. etc., etc.) sounds better than the walkman what exactly remains valid from your arguments?

P.S. You can use the same headphones on a cassette deck (at least most of them).

There are a lot of variables when comparing these things just like in any audio comparison. You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions based on armchair theorizing. You completely forgot I am comparing ONLY a mid price Sony Walkman player with a FULLY MODDED OPPO and SET TUBE HEADPHONE AMP. And I'm using flimsy inexpensive Sony Sport Walkman earphones instead of Sennheiser HD600 headphones. You can't see the forest for the trees. If you wish to present evidence of your own how a tape deck compares to a Sony Walkman or how various tape decks compare to each other or how tape decks compare to reel to reel, or to vinyl, or any other comparison you dream up be my guest. Knock yourself out.

I realize you were probably sleeping one off but I already went into how the various audio performance characteristics of the Sony Walkman compared to the Oppo/Woo Audio rig, including the bass response. I suspect you might be suffering from the backfire effect, the more I repeat what I said in my OP on dynamics and the Sony Walkman the more I get these snarky "what about this" and "what about that" posts from you and Michael.

By the way the organ sounds fantastic on the Sony Walkan using the flimsy Sony Sport Walkman earphones. Very dynamic and low in frequency and coherent!! The quality of the bass is actually something I am pretty use you have never experienced, ever. I know what level of sound quality you have there in Romania and I don't have to see photos of your system.

Never give a sucker an even break. - Old audiophile expression.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Ah, old Appeal to Authority routine
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

I was asking so I could see how much experience you have had with tape and the sound of it. Since the topic is called "the audio code" I was trying to figure out where your posts were fitting in.

There are several levels of tape machines and tape itself, and I don't think we should be making general statements without understanding the scope of what we are talking about.

To answer the question of "me having a portable vs deck"? My answer was yes and a fairly good understanding of taping along the audio chain including being a tape runner. You asked "what does that have to do with anything". I assume you don't know what a tape runner does?

A runner controls the mastering machines and makes the copy masters. After this the masters are made into mastering slaves. The system (depending on how direct and speed and bias), is a few machines hooked up to each other pumping out the reel to reels or cassettes, or in my case those plus DAT, Beta, VHS, 8-trac (studio track), and 3/4". Every machine sounds slightly different from the next as well as every cassette does. My job was not only making the copies from start to finish but also referencing the sound quality of the tapes as they played on different take playback machines. My particular setup had several of the new models of tape machines from portables to home to car playbacks. We were an independent lab for Sony, JVC and a few others.

Your point being that you have a walkman and pro walkman now according to you, and I worked on the entire process, and feel like we need to be talking about what things really are and not making statements based on limited knowledge or doing. I notice that a lot of times guys come up here and make comments but they're not really based on much more than a couple of systems owned over the years. I ran into this a lot on the pro-side as well. I'm not sure why the pro-side and home playing side aren't closer in touch, it would save a bunch of guys throwing around guesses as if they were fact.

What I would like to see is us getting down to what really is instead of all these loosely written opinions and assumptions. There are people out there including myself who actual have done the work.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/[/quote]

Your arguments fit in well with the definition of the famous logical fallacy, Appeal to Authority. Your knowledge of tape decks, as complete as that may be, is completely irrelevant to whether a Sony Walkman cassette player can sound better than a CD player, a Hot Rodded CD player at that. I could care less if you find my observation strange or preposterous. That's the same as Costin claiming "I'm a PhD in Information Theory so I am right in any discussion on the subject of audio or physics." See what I mean? What's next, comparing tape decks to vinyl, cassette players to reel to reel, portable CD players to portable turntables, car CD players to full range speaker systems? Do you see where I'm headed with this?

Argument from authority
Argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ab auctoritate), also authoritative argument and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy when misused.[1]

In informal reasoning, the appeal to authority is a form of argument attempting to establish a statistical syllogism.[2] The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form:[3]

A is an authority on a particular topic
A says something about that topic
A is probably correct

Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence,[2][4][5][6] as authorities can come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts.[7]. (Note especially the last sentence).

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. ~ Old audiophile axiom

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Huh??
jgossman wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
jgossman wrote:

For it's faults, cassette is the most "immediate" and tactile format - including LP currently available. Little music is released on cassette anymore, but it is, especially if you get a good Nakamichi or Teac deck from the late 80's or 90's in most ways a superior format to CD. The one area where it is better, dynamic range, doesn't matter because no recording engineer takes advantage of it anyway. The siblance in most vocals especially.

That's precisely what they said about digital, all we need is a better mechanism, or better DAC, better, speakers, better sample rates, and all the rest of it. As Roger Miller put it so well, You Can't Roller Skate in a Buffalo Herd. A relatively cheap and relatively UN-technically advanced cassette player will kick an expensive CD player's ass any day of the week in most ways that matter. Digital was the single most obvious con job ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting naive public.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

So all the effort Sony, Nakamichi, JVC, etc. put into getting S/N ratio to levels exceeding that of most CDP's (around 89db - approaching that of the associated solid state electronics) and the effort Nakamichi put toward surpassing R2R wow and flutter numbers, which they had done on pretty much all decks by the mid 80's and were nearing unmeasurable by the 90's - that was all for naught? All that had nothing to do with the depth and width of the sound stage of say a Nakamichi LX-5 or the power and dynamics of a Tascam 122?

I'm happy you found the joy's of the "lowly" (said with a dose of irony) cassette, but this is an exercise in futility if you'd rather listen to tapes on your walkman than my old (and sold :( ) LX-5, the 480 I'm repairing, or my once mighty 581 which has unfortunately become a parts deck (it is nearly 40 years old). Or for that matter the lowly low end Sony now in my system or the Technics M7 I'm restoring.

I understand the joy of discovering something is better than it should be, but being skeptical of something that is clearly better? I don't get it.

I'm afraid you have once again had a reading comprehension fail. I am not doubting at all that some tape decks are superior to portables just as I'm not doubting some portables are superior to other portables. Let's try to keep things simple. I'm only comparing a mid price portable cassette player to a modded Oppo headphone CD system. All of your ranting about tape decks is irrelevant. however, I can certainly understand your anger and continued snarkiness. can I make a suggestion? take up your concerns regarding tape decks with someone who cares like Michael.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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CD's

Hi, Micheal. You already know the answer to "why would the music industry make CD's that don't perform?" The answer is that they don't gave a damn about sound quality. You also must know that audiophiles like you and I make up a tiny fraction of music buyers. The vast majority of CD buyers have no concept about sound quality at all. And they have no interest in developing one. I was in best buy once trying to explain to a young salesman that MP3(which was all he listened to) music like shit. He looked at me like I was crazy. It wasn't that he disagreed. He wasn't intelligent enough for that.It was that he didn't have a clue what sound quality means. And he didn't care. This is where the music industry is at. Thats why LP's went away. They convinced people that CD's sound better. About the "revealing" thing. Maybe this will make sense to you. I'm nearsighted, so when I go to the health club, I might look across the gym and see a woman who looks real attractive. But when I put my glasses on and look again, I see that she isn't really attractive at all.( Sorry for the sexist example)

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best buys

I'm not sure I would be making my opinions based on Best Buys.

Also, I'm sorry you feel the industry doesn't care.

As far as the music and production, I've seen some pretty great recordings come out through the years, and would have to say there isn't a period where the recordings were particularly worse then any other time. There's such a wide range of artist, engineers, studios and playback sources that I can't imagine why an audiophile would say the choices are bad.

When I see hobbyist making comments about quality, I have to ask "do they know how to tune a recording and system"? 99% of the time I find that the audiophile makes the same type of look as your best buy guy did, when asked this. Audiophiles don't even know about the "audio code" let alone what to do with it, so just as you might say comments about the best buy guy not knowing, we who are tuning look at the audiophile who isn't tuning the same way.

On my forum we are often making comments about the audiophile not knowing what a variable system is, so to us we can't agree with the guy who has a system that is stuck in "one sound" world to make judgement calls on any recording.

How can someone using a fixed system make judgement calls? There's no way his system is going to be in-tune with most of the music he or she plays.

The typical audiophile is easily as out of balance as any best buy guy when it comes to using a system. The problem is most of them think they know answers, based on their particular sound only, and that's not how audio works.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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variable

Geoff says

"There are a lot of "variables" when comparing these things just like in any audio comparison."

Variables Geoff, that's the whole point.

The audiophile is stuck in holding pattern because they don't want to see and react to the variables.

But here's the cool thing, while you guys are fighting with this, people are getting ahold of us to start tuning :)

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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the forest
geoffkait wrote:
iosiP wrote:

You wrote

Quote:

Here we go: no transformers, no capacitors, no big motors, full range transducers I.e., no crossovers in the earphone drivers, very lightweight transducers for lightning fast transient response, no cabling, no electronics boxes, no chassis, no house power, no ground so no ground issues, relative immunity to RFI/EMI, no room anomalies to worry Po me anymore, no thin, bass shy, tizzy synthetic CD sound due to a while raft of ills, including scattered laser light, out of round CDs, no seismic isolation, etc. etc., etc.

Now let me see:
1. A cassette deck has transformers, so it should sound worse than the walkman (FIY, a 3-motor deck requires a bigger transformer than your usual CD player).
2. A 3-motor deck has "more motor" than a CD player, so it should sound worse than the walkman.
3. Full-range transducers? For me, full range means 20Hz to 20kHz. How does an organ concert sound on the earphones, and what "dynamics" can you get from them??
4. Yes you are right about the rest but my argument still stands: if a cassette deck (with all the transformers, capacitors, motors, cabling, electronics boxes, chassis, house power, ground etc. etc., etc.) sounds better than the walkman what exactly remains valid from your arguments?

P.S. You can use the same headphones on a cassette deck (at least most of them).

There are a lot of variables when comparing these things just like in any audio comparison. You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions based on armchair theorizing. You completely forgot I am comparing ONLY a mid price Sony Walkman player with a FULLY MODDED OPPO and SET TUBE HEADPHONE AMP. And I'm using flimsy inexpensive Sony Sport Walkman earphones instead of Sennheiser HD600 headphones. You can't see the forest for the trees. If you wish to present evidence of your own how a tape deck compares to a Sony Walkman or how various tape decks compare to each other or how tape decks compare to reel to reel, or to vinyl, or any other comparison you dream up be my guest. Knock yourself out.

I realize you were probably sleeping one off but I already went into how the various audio performance characteristics of the Sony Walkman compared to the Oppo/Woo Audio rig, including the bass response. I suspect you might be suffering from the backfire effect, the more I repeat what I said in my OP on dynamics and the Sony Walkman the more I get these snarky "what about this" and "what about that" posts from you and Michael.

By the way the organ sounds fantastic on the Sony Walkan using the flimsy Sony Sport Walkman earphones. Very dynamic and low in frequency and coherent!! The quality of the bass is actually something I am pretty use you have never experienced, ever. I know what level of sound quality you have there in Romania and I don't have to see photos of your system.

Never give a sucker an even break. - Old audiophile expression.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

actually Geoff, Costin is walking all over you

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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spins and more spins
geoffkait wrote:
jgossman wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
jgossman wrote:

For it's faults, cassette is the most "immediate" and tactile format - including LP currently available. Little music is released on cassette anymore, but it is, especially if you get a good Nakamichi or Teac deck from the late 80's or 90's in most ways a superior format to CD. The one area where it is better, dynamic range, doesn't matter because no recording engineer takes advantage of it anyway. The siblance in most vocals especially.

That's precisely what they said about digital, all we need is a better mechanism, or better DAC, better, speakers, better sample rates, and all the rest of it. As Roger Miller put it so well, You Can't Roller Skate in a Buffalo Herd. A relatively cheap and relatively UN-technically advanced cassette player will kick an expensive CD player's ass any day of the week in most ways that matter. Digital was the single most obvious con job ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting naive public.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

So all the effort Sony, Nakamichi, JVC, etc. put into getting S/N ratio to levels exceeding that of most CDP's (around 89db - approaching that of the associated solid state electronics) and the effort Nakamichi put toward surpassing R2R wow and flutter numbers, which they had done on pretty much all decks by the mid 80's and were nearing unmeasurable by the 90's - that was all for naught? All that had nothing to do with the depth and width of the sound stage of say a Nakamichi LX-5 or the power and dynamics of a Tascam 122?

I'm happy you found the joy's of the "lowly" (said with a dose of irony) cassette, but this is an exercise in futility if you'd rather listen to tapes on your walkman than my old (and sold :( ) LX-5, the 480 I'm repairing, or my once mighty 581 which has unfortunately become a parts deck (it is nearly 40 years old). Or for that matter the lowly low end Sony now in my system or the Technics M7 I'm restoring.

I understand the joy of discovering something is better than it should be, but being skeptical of something that is clearly better? I don't get it.

I'm afraid you have once again had a reading comprehension fail. I am not doubting at all that some tape decks are superior to portables just as I'm not doubting some portables are superior to other portables. Let's try to keep things simple. I'm only comparing a mid price portable cassette player to a modded Oppo headphone CD system. All of your ranting about tape decks is irrelevant. however, I can certainly understand your anger and continued snarkiness. can I make a suggestion? take up your concerns regarding tape decks with someone who cares like Michael.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Geoff is it really so hard to accept that these guys have you outgunned.

Now ontop of you choosing the Sony Walkman as your reference and a few people are schooling you, you attack. Why don't you kick back and enjoy their experiences?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Walking all over me?

Michael wrote,

"actually Geoff, Costin is walking all over you."

I wouldn't say he's walking at all, more like staggering like a drunken sailor. Even his name calling ends a lot of work. He hasn't recovered from when I pointed out the audio signal was comprised of photons and still doesn't know the difference between magnetism and an electromagnetic wave. I grant you he's a likable old fart, though. By the way, I couldn't help but notice, it looks like you're completely out of ammo.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff, you don't know nothing, you moron!
geoffkait wrote:

I know what level of sound quality you have there in Romania and I don't have to see photos of your system.

You couldn't put Romania onj the map, so even less talk about the sound quality in this country. FYI, the latest DAC from Wadia was designed by a Romanian company and the same company programmed the digital filters in the MSB line. As for tube amps, the English branch of Audio Note is partly manufactured here, with heavy input from Romanian designers.

My system (sorry, no photos) is composed of an Esoteric UX-3Pi player/transport, Chord Electronics Indigo DAC/CPA 3000 pre/SPM 4000 power and Raidho C3.1 speakers, all wired with Siltech. And yes I have another (simpler) system in the work, consisting of a low-mass, completely separated MOS-FET power amp, passive pre and a stripped-down OPPO (with all video circuits removed and recased in Perspex/wood). Still have to find the matching speakers (that, BTW, I will transform in tunable items).

You see, dear moron, we here like to do and listen instead of just disparaging others... but this is something you cannot understand, can you?

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Hey we have something in common!
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

I know what level of sound quality you have there in Romania and I don't have to see photos of your system.

You couldn't put Romania onj the map, so even less talk about the sound quality in this country. FYI, the latest DAC from Wadia was designed by a Romanian company and the same company programmed the digital filters in the MSB line. As for tube amps, the English branch of Audio Note is partly manufactured here, with heavy input from Romanian designers.

My system (sorry, no photos) is composed of an Esoteric UX-3Pi player/transport, Chord Electronics Indigo DAC/CPA 3000 pre/SPM 4000 power and Raidho C3.1 speakers, all wired with Siltech. And yes I have another (simpler) system in the work, consisting of a low-mass, completely separated MOS-FET power amp, passive pre and a stripped-down OPPO (with all video circuits removed and recased in Perspex/wood). Still have to find the matching speakers (that, BTW, I will transform in tunable items).

You see, dear moron, we here like to do and listen instead of just disparaging others... but this is something you cannot understand, can you?

I just replaced my fully modded Oppo with the cheap little cassette player and cheap CD player and am glad I did. My video functions on the Oppo were always OFF. So, yes, I actually can well imagine what kind of sound quality you have there in Romania. You probably don't know it but you're a perfect candidate for a Sony Walkman cassette player. ;-)

"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance."

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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ammo

Geoff says "By the way, I couldn't help but notice, it looks like you're completely out of ammo."

Thanks for your concern Geoff.

Seeing that I'll be sending out another tunable room this week, ammo is the least of my issues. BTW, I'm building more on "the audio code" on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code . Getting close to the CES my time is getting tighter, but I'll keep putting more info up as time permits.

Looking forward to seeing Costin's new setup!

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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geoff's reference

Geoff said

"I just replaced my fully modded Oppo with the cheap little cassette player and cheap CD player and am glad I did."

Just wanted to be clear that Geoff indeed did replace his reference with the Sony Walkman. So moving forward, we should note that Geoff is giving advice based on his replacement portables "and am glad I did" as his point of reference.

So as your reading Geoff putting down the listeners on this forum, I would recommend looking at his point of reference.

According to Geoff the SoundStage is not important, as you can read on several of his postings.

So Geoff's reference is a Sony Walkman, and here is his quote about that. Geoff said "can I make a suggestion? take up your concerns regarding tape decks with someone who cares like Michael"

I think as music lovers read these threads they should put things in context. That context is what you should be judging someones abilities by. For example my context is based here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Michael, my new setup will be a long time coming

I've made a list of parts but they are hard to obtain. The power amp will be of a variable gain sort, with the gain set by a passive attenuator based on photocells (so I can electrically isolate the pre from the power). Since the photocells are not linear I have to write all settings in an EPROM, which is not simple.
Anyhow, the whole shebang will be powered by a couple of truck batteries (at +/- 48V) without any transformers. Yes an ambitious plan but still feasible... wish me good luck!

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Speaking of giving advice
michael green wrote:

Geoff said

"I just replaced my fully modded Oppo with the cheap little cassette player and cheap CD player and am glad I did."

Just wanted to be clear that Geoff indeed did replace his reference with the Sony Walkman. So moving forward, we should note that Geoff is giving advice based on his replacement portables "and am glad I did" as his point of reference.

So as your reading Geoff putting down the listeners on this forum, I would recommend looking at his point of reference.

According to Geoff the SoundStage is not important, as you can read on several of his postings.

So Geoff's reference is a Sony Walkman, and here is his quote about that. Geoff said "can I make a suggestion? take up your concerns regarding tape decks with someone who cares like Michael"

I think as music lovers read these threads they should put things in context. That context is what you should be judging someones abilities by. For example my context is based here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

And you describe waveforms that look like this as good sound and performances the best you've heard.
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Bob Dylan, Modern Times, Thunder on the Mountain

Hat tip: http://floweringtoilet.blogspot.com/2008/07/mountain-on-thunder.html

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Thus spake Michael
michael green wrote:

Geoff said

"I just replaced my fully modded Oppo with the cheap little cassette player and cheap CD player and am glad I did."

Just wanted to be clear that Geoff indeed did replace his reference with the Sony Walkman. So moving forward, we should note that Geoff is giving advice based on his replacement portables "and am glad I did" as his point of reference.

So as your reading Geoff putting down the listeners on this forum, I would recommend looking at his point of reference.

According to Geoff the SoundStage is not important, as you can read on several of his postings.

So Geoff's reference is a Sony Walkman, and here is his quote about that. Geoff said "can I make a suggestion? take up your concerns regarding tape decks with someone who cares like Michael"

I think as music lovers read these threads they should put things in context. That context is what you should be judging someones abilities by. For example my context is based here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

So sayeth the man who can't tell the difference between tape and digital. Hel-loo!

;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff, any technical info?

What are the frequency limits of the walkman? Now I am sure you cannot hear anything above 5kHz (at best) but still... if those headphones can reproduce 20Hz I'll eat a pair of them.

P.S. Better leave audiophile talkings to people who can hear!

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Re: Moderation
iosiP wrote:
any decent bar has bodyguards throwing out old incontinent drunkards. But looks like this forum has no moderators...

I believe in a very light hand on the moderating tiller. In this thread, all seem to be giving ads good as they are getting and I haven't yet seen postings that are merely flames.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Frequency response
iosiP wrote:

What are the frequency limits of the walkman? Now I am sure you cannot hear anything above 5kHz (at best) but still... if those headphones can reproduce 20Hz I'll eat a pair of them.

P.S. Better leave audiophile talkings to people who can hear!

From somewhere in cyberspace:

"Cassette Frequency Response
The frequency response of cassettes varies greatly depending on the quality of the equipment used to play them back. The Nakamichi CR-7A tape deck, regarded as one of the finest tape decks ever made, was able to achieve almost perfectly flat response from 20 to 20,000Hz, generally considered to be the entire range of human hearing, albeit with high-end components and high-quality metal cassette tapes. For comparison, a Sony Professional Walkman, which is a higher-quality version of the popular personal cassette player, was essentially flat from 40 to 15,000Hz. This would roll off the lowest bass frequencies and the highest frequencies generated by cymbals and their first harmonics. Lower-quality cassette tapes will have even more attenuation."

Having said all that my little sport cassette player will kick your system's ass.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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floweringtoilet
Catch22 wrote:
michael green wrote:

Geoff said

"I just replaced my fully modded Oppo with the cheap little cassette player and cheap CD player and am glad I did."

Just wanted to be clear that Geoff indeed did replace his reference with the Sony Walkman. So moving forward, we should note that Geoff is giving advice based on his replacement portables "and am glad I did" as his point of reference.

So as your reading Geoff putting down the listeners on this forum, I would recommend looking at his point of reference.

According to Geoff the SoundStage is not important, as you can read on several of his postings.

So Geoff's reference is a Sony Walkman, and here is his quote about that. Geoff said "can I make a suggestion? take up your concerns regarding tape decks with someone who cares like Michael"

I think as music lovers read these threads they should put things in context. That context is what you should be judging someones abilities by. For example my context is based here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

And you describe waveforms that look like this as good sound and performances the best you've heard.
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
Bob Dylan, Modern Times, Thunder on the Mountain

Hat tip: http://floweringtoilet.blogspot.com/2008/07/mountain-on-thunder.html[/qu...

Actually Catch I wouldn't post these. If I had a question about the recording I would go to the mastering company and ask them to send me specs. But this would be very rare for me cause I do mostly listening tests for folks not look over spec sheets.

On this particular recording it wasn't all that hard to see what they did in the studio.

Now if you wish to put this same post up in the "test on trial" thread I'll be happy to rip it to shreds for you. But it appears that your agenda is not really about the tests, but more to make a point about the loudness wars. However without you referencing this recording with me so we could take a look at our soundstages the words that go back and forth are just ego waste of time talks.

The question really is, why do my systems play this recording and yours doesn't? Today I had yet another listener say "mg, your system has the highest level of resolution I have ever heard", so I seriously think the arguement of cheap systems play less is again out the window cause he was comparing this sound against his Berkeley. Don't know what they run, but I would guess over 10 G's right?

So I think you need to take a little deeper look at the system as a whole and how much info is on the recording and how do we get it to play.

Today we didn't do the Bob test, but he did want to hear Red Hot Chile Peppers after we did the audiophile thing, and he was on the floor laughing at how good it was. "all about tuning in the code" I said. I think we have a new believer :)

So I don't know what to tell you Catch, people are starting to tune, and it bugs you, sorry. It's not something we're doing to make you mad.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Ooops, no text

No text

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You're at your best when stating the obvious
michael green wrote:

Geoff said

"I just replaced my fully modded Oppo with the cheap little cassette player and cheap CD player and am glad I did."

Just wanted to be clear that Geoff indeed did replace his reference with the Sony Walkman. So moving forward, we should note that Geoff is giving advice based on his replacement portables "and am glad I did" as his point of reference.

So as your reading Geoff putting down the listeners on this forum, I would recommend looking at his point of reference.

According to Geoff the SoundStage is not important, as you can read on several of his postings.

So Geoff's reference is a Sony Walkman, and here is his quote about that. Geoff said "can I make a suggestion? take up your concerns regarding tape decks with someone who cares like Michael"

I think as music lovers read these threads they should put things in context. That context is what you should be judging someones abilities by. For example my context is based here http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Geez, I've only been saying it for more than a month, now, and you're just catching on? Of course I would replace anything if I felt the new thing was superior. Who wouldn't? It's called progress. We're going back. Back to the future! By the way, and I kind of hate to be the one to point this out, but by attacking me aren't you really attacking your own low mass system concept? Talk about shooting oneself in the foot.

You wrote,

"According to Geoff the soundstage is not important."

I never said any such thing. I'm beginning to suspect dishonesty is in your nature. And you're grasping at straws again. What I said was that soundstage is not the end all do all that you claim it is. It's not the end all do all any more than frequency response is. There are other important parameters we audiophiles like to obtain with our systems, you know, things like proper pitch, liquidity, realism, frequency response, musicality, timbre, rhythm, air (and lots of it), bass slam, blattiness, low distortion, am I missing some? Probably. Actually, truth be told, the cassette portable places the listener right where he wants to be in the soundfield. Just how you would hear the performance if you were right there. Without the congealed paper mâché sound of digital to contend with. Plus you don't have to be jumping up and down tuning everything every time you put a record on like some groundhog on crack.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff, I was asking about the frequency response of your walkman

Don't tell me about the Naka or the Walkman Pro, these aren't the devices you are touting to be better than the CD player (as you said, you're just comparing the Sony thingie to your modded Oppo). So what are the frequency response and THD+N of the Sony Walkman?
Now this is a clear question - please give me a clear answer!

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It does matter..
geoffkait wrote:
iosiP wrote:

What are the frequency limits of the walkman? Now I am sure you cannot hear anything above 5kHz (at best) but still... if those headphones can reproduce 20Hz I'll eat a pair of them.

P.S. Better leave audiophile talkings to people who can hear!

From somewhere in cyberspace:

"Cassette Frequency Response
The frequency response of cassettes varies greatly depending on the quality of the equipment used to play them back. The Nakamichi CR-7A tape deck, regarded as one of the finest tape decks ever made, was able to achieve almost perfectly flat response from 20 to 20,000Hz, generally considered to be the entire range of human hearing, albeit with high-end components and high-quality metal cassette tapes. For comparison, a Sony Professional Walkman, which is a higher-quality version of the popular personal cassette player, was essentially flat from 40 to 15,000Hz. This would roll off the lowest bass frequencies and the highest frequencies generated by cymbals and their first harmonics. Lower-quality cassette tapes will have even more attenuation."

Having said all that my little sport cassette player will kick your system's ass.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Using a frequency generator (I don't have any prerecorded stuff to test these numbers, musically) I was able to record from about 15hz to just under 25khz, sine wave, on my Nakamichi 581 - dead flat using metal tapes, without increasing take up speed. If you increase motor speed, you can get even better measured response. I was able to achieve pretty flat recordings from 20 hz to about 15-20 using regular type 2 120u tapes. Of course your tapes will suck on any machine without pitch control increasing motor speed.

The point is of all the measurements we in the subjectivist world like to say DON'T matter, frequency response BEFORE distortion sets in is very important, and it's one thing that set high end cassette apart from it's contemporary digital storage. Factor in needing absolutely flat recording capabilities to 10 or 15khz for Dolby to work without adding distortion and they are especially importany. Post 20+ bit PCM is another story. MLP (DVD Audio) is especially fantastic digital.

So far as you saying that your Walkman is worlds better than said high end players when you are discussing it with a guy who has owned his share of painstakenly maintained and tuned Nakamichi's and even low end Onkyo and JVC and Technics players and on the other hand a recording professional who, I'm guessing, knows his way around a Tascam/Teac deck blind folded. Well, I don't even know how to respond to that. Even decks like the Tascams and Sony's not known for thier studio recording capabilities like the Naks are undeniably wonderful and often far better than contemporary CD players at playback.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm glad you are enjoying it but, eh, really? Are you kidding me? And don't get me started on comparing an Arcam Alpha 7 and Diva CD72 much less the DCS Dac'd CD92 or Alpha 9 CDP to your portable disk player. You just can't be serious.

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I have to add

When you hear me say "Sony sucks" as I have in the past and may in the future, you have to keep in mind my frame of reference. I hate, no matter how detailed and otherwise "audiophile perfect" wide flat and plastic-y sound. And that, in my experience, is the "Sony sound". And I've never been disuaded of it. I want warmth, timbre, and realistic depth. I don't care if the soundstage extends far beyond the speakers (while it's nice if it does, while also being musically "right"). Depth and timbral accuracy is far more important that Sony "perfection".

That is all, for now. :)

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Sorry I missed this question..
iosiP wrote:

What would you listen to on those excellent cassette decks? AFAIQ there is no offer for pre-recorded cassettes (and anyhow most of the old ones were dubbed on high-speed machines with horrible results).
BTW, I am shopping for a R2R machine but this will be just for fun, to make my own selections from my CD collection (yes, I could easily do this on my computer but then there is the magic of the spinning reels).

I, being born in 1978, lived through the day when MOST of what I bought as a kid and my parents bought was on cassette. And you'd be surprised, especially when you have a Nakamichi and all it takes is a quarter turn with a screwdriver on the azimuth to dial it in, just how good those old commercial tapes are. Also I used to record allot of Jazz off radio on the 581 and the recordings are absolutely wonderful. I tried to do the same on my computer at the time and the results were dreadful.

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Frequency response revisited
iosiP wrote:

Don't tell me about the Naka or the Walkman Pro, these aren't the devices you are touting to be better than the CD player (as you said, you're just comparing the Sony thingie to your modded Oppo). So what are the frequency response and THD+N of the Sony Walkman?
Now this is a clear question - please give me a clear answer!

I reckon the Sport Model is most likely in worse shape than the Pro which comes in a 40-15K. I suspect you could have figured that out, but who knows for sure. Frankly who gives a crap what the frequency response is? That's kind of my whole point, really. That's why a cheap little old Sony Walkman beats an expensive set up, becaue the specs DONT MATTER. See the irony? CDs have GREAT SPECS, really really great specs, on paper. What are they, theoretically 100 times higher dynamic range than cassettes? Do you see where I'm going with this? But a cheap little cassette player kills it in most ways audiophiles care about. Musicality, air, realism, pitch to name a few.

Is that clear enough?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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I agree with this, though not specific to Sony
jgossman wrote:

When you hear me say "Sony sucks" as I have in the past and may in the future, you have to keep in mind my frame of reference. I hate, no matter how detailed and otherwise "audiophile perfect" wide flat and plastic-y sound. And that, in my experience, is the "Sony sound". And I've never been disuaded of it. I want warmth, timbre, and realistic depth. I don't care if the soundstage extends far beyond the speakers (while it's nice if it does, while also being musically "right"). Depth and timbral accuracy is far more important that Sony "perfection".

That is all, for now. :)

The "plastic" sound that you mention is a good way to describe a lot of stuff that bothers me as well. The quest for high resolution often leaves the texture of notes and their inner structure lean and it's far too common with many components that proclaim to be audiophile approved. Approved by who? Who are these audiophiles?

As for soundstage depth vs width. I'm in agreement there as well. To a certain degree it's a personal preference. However, much of perceived soundstaging is accomplished through reflected sound bouncing around. I'm reminded of the Bose Direct Reflecting speakers from 25 years ago. While fun for a bit, especially in conjunction with the advent of surround sound, it's an artifact created rather than on the recordings of most music.

Q Sound is another attempt at screwing around with phase shifts and reflections. For those who really place a lot of importance on the surround sound type of experience, it's usually a favorite, though only a few artists used the technique in their mastering/engineering.

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Reading comprehension fail. Again.
jgossman wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
iosiP wrote:

What are the frequency limits of the walkman? Now I am sure you cannot hear anything above 5kHz (at best) but still... if those headphones can reproduce 20Hz I'll eat a pair of them.

P.S. Better leave audiophile talkings to people who can hear!

From somewhere in cyberspace:

"Cassette Frequency Response
The frequency response of cassettes varies greatly depending on the quality of the equipment used to play them back. The Nakamichi CR-7A tape deck, regarded as one of the finest tape decks ever made, was able to achieve almost perfectly flat response from 20 to 20,000Hz, generally considered to be the entire range of human hearing, albeit with high-end components and high-quality metal cassette tapes. For comparison, a Sony Professional Walkman, which is a higher-quality version of the popular personal cassette player, was essentially flat from 40 to 15,000Hz. This would roll off the lowest bass frequencies and the highest frequencies generated by cymbals and their first harmonics. Lower-quality cassette tapes will have even more attenuation."

Having said all that my little sport cassette player will kick your system's ass.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Using a frequency generator (I don't have any prerecorded stuff to test these numbers, musically) I was able to record from about 15hz to just under 25khz, sine wave, on my Nakamichi 581 - dead flat using metal tapes, without increasing take up speed. If you increase motor speed, you can get even better measured response. I was able to achieve pretty flat recordings from 20 hz to about 15-20 using regular type 2 120u tapes. Of course your tapes will suck on any machine without pitch control increasing motor speed.

The point is of all the measurements we in the subjectivist world like to say DON'T matter, frequency response BEFORE distortion sets in is very important, and it's one thing that set high end cassette apart from it's contemporary digital storage. Factor in needing absolutely flat recording capabilities to 10 or 15khz for Dolby to work without adding distortion and they are especially importany. Post 20+ bit PCM is another story. MLP (DVD Audio) is especially fantastic digital.

So far as you saying that your Walkman is worlds better than said high end players when you are discussing it with a guy who has owned his share of painstakenly maintained and tuned Nakamichi's and even low end Onkyo and JVC and Technics players and on the other hand a recording professional who, I'm guessing, knows his way around a Tascam/Teac deck blind folded. Well, I don't even know how to respond to that. Even decks like the Tascams and Sony's not known for thier studio recording capabilities like the Naks are undeniably wonderful and often far better than contemporary CD players at playback.

Again, don't get me wrong, I'm glad you are enjoying it but, eh, really? Are you kidding me? And don't get me started on comparing an Arcam Alpha 7 and Diva CD72 much less the DCS Dac'd CD92 or Alpha 9 CDP to your portable disk player. You just can't be serious.

I am not kidding you. As I just stated to someone else, who cares about the specs? Of course you can find plenty of examples where a high end component has great specs. Duh. I am not saying at all the Sony Sport Cassette has better specs than high end components, you silly goose. Quite the contrary. I'm saying that specs are meaningless. I'm talking only about the sound. Now do you get it?

I would also appreciate it if you didnt put words in my mouth. I did not say the Sony cassette player was world's better than high end players. What I actually said was my Sony cassette player was better in certain important respects than my modded Oppo and SET tube headphone amp set up. And guess what? None of the respects had anything to do with specs. Save the drama for your mama.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

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jgossman wrote:
jgossman wrote:

I, being born in 1978, lived through the day when MOST of what I bought as a kid and my parents bought was on cassette. And you'd be surprised, especially when you have a Nakamichi and all it takes is a quarter turn with a screwdriver on the azimuth to dial it in, just how good those old commercial tapes are.

I cannot disagree, however I'd lke to point out that I used to live in a commie country where prerecorded tapes were as rare as hen's teeth, so I have no way to replace mu 2000+ CD collection with the equivalent cassettes. BTW, could you do this, even in the USA? I'm asking because most modern recordings were never issued on cassette (think of all ECM or FIM nice jazz as well as others). And if you tape them from CD you miss the point of a full analog recording/mixing/mastering/distribution chain.

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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

As I just stated to someone else, who cares about the specs? Of course you can find plenty of examples where a high end component has great specs. Duh. I am not saying at all the Sony Sport Cassette has better specs than high end components, you silly goose. Quite the contrary. I'm saying that specs are meaningless. I'm talking only about the sound.

Wow! The same mantra: no matter if the toy cannot reproduce anything below 50-60Hz, the organ sounds great to my ears, no matter if it cannot pull out anything above 12kHz, there is "air" in (or rather between) my ears. Geoff, I heard this crap so many times I'm tired: specs don't matter, it's how it sounds! Yes I agree: specs don't matter when talking about a power amp with 0.01% THD and one with 0.001% THD (since you cannot hear any of them) but when a thingie has a flawed frequency response and audible wow and flutter then stating it's the best you ever heard is only a matter of personal taste and you're in no position to ask others to share your option. So let's make it clear: you are enjoying a poorly measuring plastic portable... well, that's your option, just stop stating it sounds better than history-making cassette decks or top-shelf CD-based systems. Just sit down and enjoy your music, as we all do, without trying to teach others how to live their lives.

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low mass and more

Geoff, I'm right with you on the low mass. Where I'm not with you is one saying phones are better than the room when it comes to revealing the real space and size of a recording. And I'm also unfortunately not with you on the sony walkman as a high end audio reference. But that shouldn't be of any surprise, I also don't like over massed systems.

At the same time I'm enjoying reading the guys on this thread who are making adjustments. One thing that I have noticed as time goes on is the fact that once a listener hears the real size and space the audiophile hobby is changed for them. They start spending their time opening up recordings instead of only being able to listen to a piece of them.

I'm looking forward to the talking going from fixed to variable.

I am a little surprised that very few people on this thread are talking about the topic though. Knowing how to tune in the audio code is crucial to successful listening and I'm reading people talking about fixed comparisons and a little adjusting but no one talking about how to tune in the recording.

I'm seeing people talk, but waiting for someone to pickup a particular recording and say "lets listen to this" and compare soundstages. Do you guys not realize how much we would learn about each others systems and views on recording if we spent time listening together. Honestly it's almost like a fear that I see on these forums. Jgossman adjusting his tape head and Costin adjusting his drivers is as close as we have gotten to the threads topic.

Why the fear over tuning?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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plastic sound

Catch says

"The "plastic" sound that you mention is a good way to describe a lot of stuff that bothers me as well." quoting Jgossman.

This is why I can't listen to these audiophile type stages. To me they sound plastic. If a stage doesn't go in an equal dispersion similar to the original mic patterns my ears tweak. If the sound is only between the speakers or only frontal I'm looking for the door, cause when I'm in the studio live room this is not the way sound works. Audiophiles make their own rules and much of the time it doesn't match the real recordings.

I guess I just don't get why people say they are in a hobby yet don't want to follow the rules of that hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Scrubbing of the brain
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

As I just stated to someone else, who cares about the specs? Of course you can find plenty of examples where a high end component has great specs. Duh. I am not saying at all the Sony Sport Cassette has better specs than high end components, you silly goose. Quite the contrary. I'm saying that specs are meaningless. I'm talking only about the sound.

Wow! The same mantra: no matter if the toy cannot reproduce anything below 50-60Hz, the organ sounds great to my ears, no matter if it cannot pull out anything above 12kHz, there is "air" in (or rather between) my ears. Geoff, I heard this crap so many times I'm tired: specs don't matter, it's how it sounds! Yes I agree: specs don't matter when talking about a power amp with 0.01% THD and one with 0.001% THD (since you cannot hear any of them) but when a thingie has a flawed frequency response and audible wow and flutter then stating it's the best you ever heard is only a matter of personal taste and you're in no position to ask others to share your option. So let's make it clear: you are enjoying a poorly measuring plastic portable... well, that's your option, just stop stating it sounds better than history-making cassette decks or top-shelf CD-based systems. Just sit down and enjoy your music, as we all do, without trying to teach others how to live their lives.

I see you've been brainwashed into believing that specs are everything. Of course if it really were true that 20 to 20 KHz were the entire story then everyone with high end equipment would be enjoying 20 Hz bass performance and tons of AIR and a soundstage as big as Kansas. Unfortunately audiophiles have been conditioned to believe they are hearing air when they aren't, because they think that since the frequency response is stated as 20-20Hz they MUST have air. As for bass performance most big high end systems would be happy if they get solid 40 Hz bass. Not to mention all the other characteristics that are frequently missing in action in high end systems: coherence, detail, pitch, bloom, slam, etc. Even if the components actually perform as stated the room anomalies and all the problems I've been talking about change the outcome entirely. I suspect you cannot hear anything over 15Hz anyways. Sorry to burst your bubble.

The AIR and BASS PERFORMANCE of high end systems are destroyed, evicerated and attenuated by the very things I've been railing about lo these past four months. To whit, magnetic fields induced by transformers and wires and cables, distortion produced by wires and cables and fuses installed backwards, background scattered laser light inside the CD transport (the mods on MY Oppo addressed the magnetic fields on the large aftermarket OPPOMODS Linear Power Supply with huge toroidal transformer, EMI/RFI and vibration produced by the building structure and large toroidal transformer and transmitted to the circuit boards. I bet your Oppo mods did not address these issues. The modded Oppo is OK I suppose but not the ultimate player at all. In fact, as I've been trying to say lo these past couple of months, a ridiculously inexpensive cassette player outperforms the modded Oppo in terms of musicality, presence, and yes, even AIR and coherence of the bass. You seem to be consumed by frequency response, but there are of course, as I've also been saying all along, other performance parameters that are just as important such as coherence, resolution, presence, etc.

On cassettes one can hear the original tape hiss of the analog recording. On a CD of the same recording you cannot hear the tape hiss. That's gotta tell ya something. I know what you're thinking, CDs have better frequency response. Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynmica

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We will have to agree to disagree
michael green wrote:

Geoff, I'm right with you on the low mass. Where I'm not with you is one saying phones are better than the room when it comes to revealing the real space and size of a recording. And I'm also unfortunately not with you on the sony walkman as a high end audio reference. But that shouldn't be of any surprise, I also don't like over massed systems.

At the same time I'm enjoying reading the guys on this thread who are making adjustments. One thing that I have noticed as time goes on is the fact that once a listener hears the real size and space the audiophile hobby is changed for them. They start spending their time opening up recordings instead of only being able to listen to a piece of them.

I'm looking forward to the talking going from fixed to variable.

I am a little surprised that very few people on this thread are talking about the topic though. Knowing how to tune in the audio code is crucial to successful listening and I'm reading people talking about fixed comparisons and a little adjusting but no one talking about how to tune in the recording.

I'm seeing people talk, but waiting for someone to pickup a particular recording and say "lets listen to this" and compare soundstages. Do you guys not realize how much we would learn about each others systems and views on recording if we spent time listening together. Honestly it's almost like a fear that I see on these forums. Jgossman adjusting his tape head and Costin adjusting his drivers is as close as we have gotten to the threads topic.

Why the fear over tuning?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/[/quote]

I say yes, you say no. That's what makes this hobby so interesting. If everyone had the same opinions, results, experience, there would be nothing left to talk about, no? My comparison of the Sony Walkman to the MODDED OPPO HEADPHONE SYSTEM is what it is. You can disagree with my methods, my observations, my results and my conclusions until the cows come home, mix nix to me. This is not a peer review.

Because it's what I choose to believe. - Dr. Elizabeth Shaw in the movie, Prometheus

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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That's understandable
michael green wrote:

Catch says

"The "plastic" sound that you mention is a good way to describe a lot of stuff that bothers me as well." quoting Jgossman.

This is why I can't listen to these audiophile type stages. To me they sound plastic. If a stage doesn't go in an equal dispersion similar to the original mic patterns my ears tweak. If the sound is only between the speakers or only frontal I'm looking for the door, cause when I'm in the studio live room this is not the way sound works. Audiophiles make their own rules and much of the time it doesn't match the real recordings.

I guess I just don't get why people say they are in a hobby yet don't want to follow the rules of that hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/[/quote]

++++++++++++++

I think a lot of listeners place a high degree of importance on staging and many have embraced multi-channel recordings. Kal, for instance.

JGH was an early proponent of multi-channel and very much appreciated the potential for capturing the natural reflections of the venue where the recording took place. I read Kal's stuff as someone who is carrying on what Gordon would most likely have found to be the most interesting. The fact that they both prefer classical music almost exclusively and recognize good quality recordings has always commanded my attention when they describe sound.

Attempting to recreate the stage of a live performance in an auditorium is a lot different than piecing together a heavily processed collection of electric rock performers and vocals that often times aren't even playing at the same time. The stage is created out of thin air by the mixing and engineering and so the best you can hope for is to hear what the engineer wanted you to hear that was finally created out of all the sound tracks and layering and mixing. In other words, how big the stage is will be up to the engineer. Whether or not the speakers can disappear is often up to the engineer as well.

I don't think people are afraid of tuning, as you put it, but would take you more seriously if you had any appreciation for the multitude of other important aspects of sound reproduction. When John Atkinson says Santana's Supernatural is a poor recording and you say it's fantastic...that should tell you something.

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Is this controversial?

I have accumulated quite a few cassettes of the prerecorded variety by now, stop me before I Palpal again. Here are a few observations. Keep in mind what I value most of all is realism. That certain in definable something that is entertaining, relaxing and awe inspiring all at the same time. You know what I'm talking about. Even if you don't keep that in mind as I briefly list my observations regarding cassettes. Also keep on mind these observations apply to my slightly modded Sony Sport Cassette Walkman using the original Sport Walkman earphones, which are the type that fit close to the entry into the ear canal but are not inserted into the ear canal like earbuds.

Observations

1. Cassettes are generally more real sounding than CDs. Period. Thre are some CDs that approach cassettes in this regard but none reach the level of most cassettes. Of course when I say CD I'm referring to my modded Oppo and WOO Audio SET all tube headphone amp with modded Sennheiser headphones.

2. Cassettes do not, as I suppose has been imagined by a lot of folks, loose their magnetism over the years. I have quite a number of cassettes from thirty years ago and they sound as fresh as the day they were made.

3. Cassettes are more coherent sounding than CDs, generally speaking. As if Something is lost or transmorgified during the digital process somewhere along the line.

4. Cassettes generally speaking have great air, and what I mean by that is that there is space or air around the instruments and around the singers.

5. Cassettes generally sound more like the real thing. Case in point the RCA Living Stereo CD of Brahms violin concerto by Heifetz just doesn't have the air and bite and real violin sound of the same recording on a standard cassette.

6. The bass performance is absolutely spectacular on cassette. No, I do not have Mega Bass on the Sport Walkman. The bass may not be the absolute lowest possible but it is very satisfying, deep detailed with plenty of snap and whollup. Most important the bass is pitch correct and since there are no crossovers in the system totally integrated into the music, which is rather critical to bass performance, no?

7. Cassettes that are digitally remastered while they actually generally sound quite good, better than I would have thought by far, being very dynamic, smooth and having some air, are not as real sounding as analog recordings on cassette. There are some digitally remastered cassettes here like AC/DC Live (got Blood if you want it) that are simply terrific, I cannot tell what it's heritage is. Another surprise was Kind of Blue the remastered warhorse, very good rendition of Miles Davis' trumpet, Coltrane's sax, et al.

8. I just bough a bunch of Jimmy Smith cassettes, like new, Blue Notes and others, that are really terrific musically, with Stanley Turrentine and others playing with him. Some of these Jimmy Smith cassettes are digitally remastered and some are not. While the remastered cassettes are interesting and don't sound bad at all, the analog cassettes are notably superior in the category of realism. The analog cassettes are able to play things that squeak, things that have glissandro, things that squeal, things with complex harmonics, things that have a lot of vibrato. Things like organ, trumpet, sax, bells, vibes, timpani, violin, cello, etc. Music soothes the savage breast. Know what I mean, jelly bean?

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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did you read

Hi Catch

Did you read http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code

If you could read this then tell me the parts you have questions with, it would make it a lot easier for me to get on the same page with you.

From my experience with Stereophile, the only ones I remember doing variable tuning with were Guy Lemcoe and J.Gordon. I've listened with many others but these were the ones that we took a piece of music and tuned it to particular settings. In those settings, we took the same piece of music and with tuning the equipment were able to open and close the stage like a camera. This was done with 2 speakers (no surround). On TuneLand there are a few articles that talk about experiencing surround with two speakers.

What I would like to do for the industry is set up a demo again and have them report on the findings. I think this will help people who are not quite getting it yet. Seems like the audiophile part of this industry has drifted a little since 95 or so.

On the audio code I explain what goes on in recordings in the live room and mix created sound both. I also cover this in articles talking about our own referencing studios 2004.

This part

"The stage is created out of thin air by the mixing and engineering and so the best you can hope for is to hear what the engineer wanted you to hear that was finally created out of all the sound tracks and layering and mixing. In other words, how big the stage is will be up to the engineer. Whether or not the speakers can disappear is often up to the engineer as well."

This is not necessarily accurate. Catch have you done studio work? The job is not to create tiny stages, but landscapes that go front to back, side to side, up and down, and all around many times. The other recording values are always done within the context of the stage.

When I did recording with Warner Bros for example. In the studio we listened to the recording in front of us. This happened because of the way the studio was setup, and the mastering, but when we brought the recording to my reference room the room sound was all around us. We did the same thing with them and Digitdesign with the protools with all created sources and the same thing happened. We could float the sound right pass the listener front to back and back again with no rear speakers.

Another good couple of examples are "wish you were here" and "final cut" of floyd if you wanted to do a simple reference. I got to play with these in the studio and in my room. I can fly things right pass your head.

When you talk about reflections in the room that's also not what goes on in a well designed room. It would be good if you guys would spend time with some high end rooms and less in the audiophile part only. Not to be rude to the audiophile room guys but they lack in listening, referencing the studio to the playback.

As far as John A. goes to my knowledge he has not been in a tunable room yet, but that's something that can be done if he would like, and we'll play any of his references as well as some of the recordings he has panned and we'll see if his tune changes. If you read about me tuning at TAS this happened with their panned recordings. With their first panned reviews they described the music as disaster, and at the end of the tuning "masterpieces". Final Cut was one of such recordings.

catch said

"I don't think people are afraid of tuning, as you put it, but would take you more seriously if you had any appreciation for the multitude of other important aspects of sound reproduction."

I'm not sure where this is coming from to be honest, and if you and others wish to look and even post on TuneLand you would find that we look at everything, and in far more detail than any post I have ever seen on here or any high end audio review. I think your reading into this before looking at what we do to be honest, but might I say this. Go talk to the reviewers we have tuned with in person and ask their experience. Some of them are quite good listeners.

At the same time, and no dis on John A. but he and the others are not tunees to the extent where some of masters are, and if he or any of the others spent a day with "Herns" or some of the masters of tuning, their jaws would be on the floor at the end of the day just like everyone else. I respect the reviewers and Magazines for what they do and have done, but their not living inside of the labs that we do day in and out, and we can't expect them to review much past stock products. That's their job and should be respected for that, but comparing stock to advanced listening is two different worlds.

It's my bad, I didn't have enough of the reviewers to my places and spend time tuning for them in the 90's, I own that. But, we're going to correct that this time around. We have plans to put together a playground for these listeners to come visit, and are even talking about after doing this offering a Tunable Room for them, once they come hear what they do.

I think the best place to start though is to build a full tunable system here in Vegas and invite those who have questions or doubt to come out and play for themselves. It's a whole lot easier to deal with subjects while going through the experience.

Catch you will be more than welcome to come and we look forward to having a good time of listening with you. Harold BTW makes a mean BBQ. After you experience it I would guess you will say what everyone does "why isn't everyone doing it". And that is the challenge, letting listeners know there is another step moving forward.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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in the mastering room-in the home

Can I show you guys something?

Over the last while I have been trying to bring to attention here that there is another step to the hobby. I mention it's name "tuning" and there are reactions from different folks. Some saying this makes sense and others hanging on to the audiophile "fixed" route. The folks opposed bring up things like "you mean I have to tune every recording" as if their equipment has the ability to play all the audio code on it's own. Well as of late Catch22 introduced us to a you tube video from the mastering room, and I'm thrilled he did!

As people up here are blasting their 6-shooters at me for bringing up some facts about the recording process, it's great to look at this from the end of the engineers themselves. I'm not going to take sides with preferences, but what I would like to do is show the mindset of the mastering engineer as he receives pieces of music to work on. Keep in mind that every mastering engineer has his own particular codes that he or she is adding to the music, but this gives you some idea into this end of the hobby.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbZtrXXVFjE

"every piece of gear everywhere has a different sound"

"I have 5 EQ's and each sounds different"

"I have to make a decission on the fly, a week per project, one day on and album"

"different compressors have different sound"

"a little more treble or a little more bass"

"some compressors need EQed"

"creative control"

Here's the point. The more you as a hobbyist learn about recording the more you are going to see that a plug and play discete home system will not play all the music out there.

All these reviews based on a single setup are just that "based on a single setup and those particular songs used", they in no way represent a wide range of music.

why is this important?

The audiophile, if they do not move to tuning, will be buying different sounding equipment and fixed tweaks for the rest of their listening days and still never have what it takes to truly listen to their music collection.

Look again at the video and listen to what Greg does per each recording. Look at all the tools he uses, and very important look at his room and equipment setting. The chances of you being able to get the same sound as Greg with a system that only plays one sound is 1 in a million if that.

Every engineer on the planet is doing what Greg is "making personal quick decissions on EQ and compression". Every engineer since the beginning of recording has made a different audio code for you to play back in your room and system. Your system "any system" does not have the ability to play back the music any other way than the way the parts, pieces, drivers, room and much more dictates. Your playing music with millions of different codes on systems that only play those codes "one way".

Look at these types of videos and think beyond you being judge of the music from one small point of view. Look at all the equipment these guys have and put two and two together. Look at their room, equipment and personal taste. You sitting in your room playing judge over what is good or bad goes only as far as your own ears and has absolutely no truth for your fellow listeners. Truth be told, not only do all these studios and mastering rooms sound different from each other and always have, but so do the performances of test equipment itself have different results and flavoring.

I've said this a few times and you need to plug this into your brains. There's far more on those recordings than your getting. Your experiencing maybe 10% of the recording whole with a typical high end audio system. And every time you put on a new recording you are listening to a completely different set of audio codes to deal with.

The game of high end audio discrete plug and play may be fun and popular, but it doesn't take you to the next level of the hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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or

I was listening this morning and the thought came to me mind, that possibly people in this hobby don't even know there is an audio code.

Can it be possible that the high end audio playback listener is not aware that there is a signature code that comes with every recording ever made? I'm looking through pages of mags and on forums now thinking that the recorded code that is put on every recording regardless of source may be something that for the last several years has been over-looked or certainly not put high enough on the list, and now people are thinking that their systems are actually playing these codes automatically.

So I have to ask, do you guys know that every recording has a code?

I've been in my world so long tuning in that code that maybe, I have been assuming that the industry knew this as common knowledge, now I'm starting to have my doubts. I guess it's possible that the reviewing and industry experts have somehow missed this, but how? How can an industry based on codes not know that the playback systems are all about matching those codes? Ask yourselves, and I think many of you are, why do all these systems sound different, and why is no one asking about or talking about the recorded codes that are put on the playback units? I'm reading some talk about various parts of the technologies, but no one is stepping up to the plate describing how the code is made, processed and delivered. We have created a whole industry based on tweaking and changing out one piece for another but no one is looking at each recording and the matching up of the two codes, one being stored and one being delivered.

Let me explain this in simple terms

Your recordings (all of them) are like combination locks. Each one has it's own unique combination setting. Once you seal that lock (put the music on a playback source like Tape CD or LP) that information can't be fully un-locked until you get the combination to match up the codes and set that recording free.

This is the part that I think the high end audio industry somehow started to completely over look. Not that it's a mistake that can't be corrected and moved on from but it certainly has become somewhat of a stop sign for this hobby. I look and hear all these discrete systems (you do too) and all of them play certain music better than other music, system dependent. Compression people resist your comments, I'm talking about the very best of recordings as well.

Lets say we set aside all of the recordings you call so so or bad. Come on do it. lets not even concern ourselves with those. Now lets pick out the best. Lets compare notes. Notice how all the lists are different even amoung the best of the best? Lets do this comparison for real audiophiles and I bet you won't get 50 recordings out the door before conflicts will start to happen. I also bet you will not find any of these recordings sounding the same on any one of these systems.

lets not let this storm blow over this time

Look at what is going on with the recording itself and the playback systems. Your system is "NOT" an "AUTOMATCH" playback system. You don't have a sensor and auto-adjust servos throughout your setups that retune your electric, mechanics and acoustics everytime a source is put on. We need to get our audiophile heads out of the sand guys. Your years are running out as well as your wallets and explainations.

The next level of listening is writing this to you right now, and not just me but many others who are tuning the two codes together and un-locking the doors.

Instead of responding based on little to no experience with this all I ask you to do is get out some recordings and listen to them until you run into one that doesn't quite fit. Again use only good recordings according to the audiophile reviews if you want. Maybe a few of you guys can do this independently of each other then get together and play through some of these recordings. One thing I can guarantee, go ahead hobbyist and reviewers and designers, play them. Not one system is playing any of those recordings exactly the same.

Your trying to fit something that needs to be tuned into a world that is based on systems with only one setting. This has nothing to do with good better best, but instead an entire method and philosophy shift. You don't have to say "I don't know" any more. You can reach that next level of listening, but your not going to do it by sitting on your sofa pretending your high end audio gear can do something it can't. Your not going to cheat physics and if you keep trying your going to end up in the trading game the rest of your listening lives.

I'm sorry to say this listeners and reviewers but your sitting still when you should be past this line in the sand. Your not going to fix a variable with a one sound mentality. How can you make a variable play without the variables?

Again listen to this question.

Why are your soundstages less than full size? Why are they not the real space and real size of the recordings? Making them real size is not only possible but a practice that has been used for some time now and is proven.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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