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geoffkait
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Soundstage
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

I currently don't have a cassette collection so I have been doing some cassette listening at a local audiophile/musician's home (cassette madman par excell-lant). Pays to have music friends :). I've only had one visit since your bringing up the cassettes, but can go back when needed. We looked up the model you showed in the picture WM222. And listened to it, as well as a few other portables. He also has a Sony Pro hooked up to main speakers by way of a tube dynaco. Based on this I hope to be able to better answer questions about the units, which some sounded pretty cool, however compared to even his in-room system do not really hold a candle, and his setup is far field against the wall.

Here's what I have noticed so far in comparison to one of my setups here. The portable soundstage is in your head mostly and doesn't give much of a frontal stage. My headphone setup as well as his give more of a 3D spread out sound. The 222 (your pictured player) sounds more like a toy compared to the Pro. Honestly I'm thinking this has more to do with the construction and the headphones.

In comparison to his Nakamichi cassette deck and Teac Reel to Reel, both of these slaughter the portables in staging. Also want to point out that he has begun to tune so these results may change.

I don't want to discourage people from these, just saying that they should be fairly picky as well as not think that these players are going to comepare to a well setup in-room system. At the same time if you don't have an in-room that is displaying a good stage, then the portables/with better headphones might just be the ticket.

As for Geoff saying these are a reference compared to a low mass setup in a good room, well honestly not even close, regardless of the noise he tries to make.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Sorry to be such a downer but you seem absolutely obsessed with soundstage. You know there is more to the music than soundstage, don't you? Besides, I already conceded soundstage superiority to speakers a long time ago, haven't you been paying attention? You're comparing the sport model to Pro model? Well, duh! I don't think you have picked up on the message yet. I never said the mid price Sport cassette player was any kind of reference system. You are putting words in my mouth for the umpteenth time.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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fact is

Hi Costin

Fact is I have not seen either one of these two do anything but internet stalking. If they were serious about themselves they would be starting their own threads on issues. Other forums would have done away with these two long ago. Sorry if that bugs anyone but thats the truth. Any time you have forum threads being constantly stalked moderators step in. It's the one complaint I have about the Stereophile forum and it is what keeps it from rising to the same reference level as their magazine or other serious forums.

This is one area where I think John and the gang are hurting themselves sorely. They're treating this like flames and real audiophiles should mingle freely. Forum misunderstandings are one thing, they can be resolved but when it goes to the extent of constant spining and stalking a forum has a choice of raising the class or lowering themselves to the same level as flame forums, which BTW have hurt this industry tremendously.

On the internet on any given topic you find quality forums that are moderated, and other forums that have been turned over to the flames and stalkers. It's not that hard to keep this under control. There's a warning, then a time out, then ban.

I do enjoy being on Stereophile, but it's a little sad that the forum does not have the same standards of class that the magazine does. It could very easily and maybe will someday.

I would like to see May and geoff try to pull on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ what they pull here, or on any of the pro sites I belong to. This is another area where High End Audio has failed. When speaking in terms of High End anything there should be class and proper moderation. Again I'm not saying that everyone agrees, just that flames and stalking does not chase away the serious people, and even since I have been here I have had members come to me and say they are done with stereophile.

I believe that people in this hobby want and need a community, not a nursery.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

iosiP
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Michael, I'm a doer not a talker

Sure I cannot stand idiocies like the "amoeba brain" and subliminal messages affecting the way we're listen to music (please notice: if I don't hear any changes then I'm lacking experience, it's not them selling snake oil).

I'm slowly moving ahead with my amplifier project but looks less simple than I initially thought: will have to separate PCBs and replace conventional PSUs with switch mode supply ones... well, I either do it properly or I won't do it at all.
Meanwhile, I wish all amoeba brain users of subliminal messages good luck!

michael green
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I figured

I figured you were up to something cool! Can always tell a real listener when we see each other. There's something about the Tone and Vibe when someone is into the music.

Will be fun to hear reports if you get the time.

Doers Rock!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May Belt
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Fine, May, so how do YOU explain the change of sound?

>>> “Please, take me slowly and only use arguments that I can follow (no, the "amoeba brain" won't do it).” <<<

>>> “So you assert that putting a purple something in place of my green identical something will change the way I perceive sound, even if the coloured thingie is out of my visual range. Explain and I'll believe!” <<<

Let me start your brain working. You have a brain perfectly capable of reasoning just like everyone else.

If the scientists are correct, then every colour is of a different frequency.

If the scientists are correct, then all the frequencies but one are absorbed by an object (or material) IRRESPECTIVE of whether you can SEE it or not. In other words, it is happening, so there IS a difference taking place when you change a colour – even when the colour is not in your visual range.!!

Now, it is your turn to use your brain to reason out how such a change can affect the sound.

When I say “it is up to you now to start thinking” I am meaning that the onus is as much on you (that is if you are interested in music and obtaining good sound) as anyone else to be ‘thinking’ “HOW” can something like that have an effect on the sound.

Let me suggest one direction in which you thinking process could go.

Is there, in Nature, a particular frequency which denotes “danger” (i.e. Watch out, there’s danger about) ?

Is there, in Nature, a particular frequency which denotes “reassurance” (i.e It’s OK, you can relax now, the danger has gone away) ?

Could we (human beings) – NOT the actual audio frequencies of the music being played – but us – be who (what) is reacting to the different frequencies of the different colours ????????????

Food for thought.

AND, iosiP, you don’t need to be an electronics or audio or acoustic engineer to start the THINKING process !!

I don’t have the definitive answer (which is obviously what you are wishing from me) – merely that there HAS TO BE an ongoing thought process proceeding to try to attempt to explain how different colours can give different sounds – which they CAN – however much you don’t want to believe such.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

michael green
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I don’t have the definitive answer

May says

"I don’t have the definitive answer", so why come up on threads that are laying out the plan?

Instead of coming up on threads giving answers and how to do and why, why don't you start your own threads talking about your questions?

I believe you might find that several of us actually do know how to engage our thinking. Your friend Geoff BTW does not agree that color is a frequency by his description of the difference between light and sound. I on the other hand follow the understanding that the entire chain bottom to top is frequency related, at least as a measuring tool.

You asked earlier about vibrations and why I'm stuck on them. I use vibrations as the term because it is the easiest route to use as the common thread as we go from low to high. At least it is for me, as I am not wanting to jump all over the place and make divisions between the different terms used as energy heads up and down the scale. I believe as the Yale papers suggest, that tuning is the proper means to keep in line physics scale.

The Yale papers I refer to was a paper written by the son in law of one of the co-founders of the fiber optic. They contacted me to build two recording studios, one at Yale and the other in Winthrop Wa. In my visits during the projects and with the school they had me speak on the common ties of energy. Not one of them had a proplem with vibration.

You see May, not all of us in this industry are just audiophile nerds as Geoff says "grasping at straws". Some of us actually do have a background and believe it or not formal training. Just because we don't want to go through the flaming that this industry so bountifully provides doesn't mean we're bench sitting dreamers waiting for the next flight to take off.

Honestly if you and Geoff didn't come off as trying to school everyone, you might find that some of us are indeed schooled and very much up on experimenting and the science of things. As for myself, I find this industry is full of people who are just shy of real practical schooling in the way of finding true discoveries. They have many questions to make conversation look tempting but not enough practice to claim proof of any given specifics many times. You for example "why do I need a reference system".

I would have hoped that this forum would have been different but have seen it is not much above flaming, when it could be exchanging. Do I really need to say I toured with David Bowie, studied at Columbia, worked at Criteria Studio, designed Yale's test studio, as well the music wing at SUNY, was the acoustician for Steinway, ran sound for the Atlanta Symphony, married to a Victoria's Secret model, design/consulting Herman Miller, Whitney Houston cooked breakfest for me, did work for the President of Nicaragua while getting shot at and hanging out with Bianca Jagger, so that it gives me the right to speak with some authority on certain issues?

You guys have got to quit trying to school people who are perhaps already in the know. Your making this hobby look like a bunch of jackasses, and is why no one wants to post here.

You guys approach me as a foe your trying to one up STOP! I've paid my dues! Your turning me off to this side of the hobby and it's really starting to bug me. Was that your goal? Do you and Geoff sit around and think about who your going to one up the next day? My God this is stupid!

No one wants or needs you to bring up questions over and over that you have no answers to. No one wants Geoff to spin everything because he really doesn't have a reference. It's all cool guys, this is music and there are some in this industry that have way more experience than others, big deal. But when you have people come up to be a part of and you do nothing but try to cut away at their contribution it hurts the industry, heck it hurts the advancement of the industry.

I shared more about my personal life in this post than I have every shared since I have been in this industry. What else would you like to know so we can move forward instead of spins. I was pals with Andy Gibb, I worked on the laser lab in Georgia, I built the only all variable audio system, met President Bush one, Mick Ronson showed me how to tune guitars, one of my studios is above the Dixie Chicks and I'm friends with the guys who made the Indigo Girls instruments. What else would you like to know, so I can be in the proper frame of mind as you school me on all things musical?

This is a joke! Why in the heck are you guys wasting my time?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Ah, the old name calling technique

Michael, I now suspect you probably should have listened to the audio dealers in Dayton, Ohio who told you many years ago that audiophiles don't want to purchase speakers that they have to tune for every single record. Instead you have made it your personal quest to shove tuning down peoples' throats. This obsession of yours explains the weird attitude and your penchant for name calling. I said it would be fun here on these threads but I didn't say for who. When you set yourself up as the paragon of sound there are bound to be consequences. Relax it's only rock and roll.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

jgossman
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What if

That's what makes him happy?

So he's a little long winded. Who cares? He's not shoving anything down anyone's throat. I'm not spending my audio days loosening screws and taking covers off my equipment, etc. But it's interesting to me that HE is and that HE is approaching it in a somewhat scientific manner. Hypothesize, try it. Soak it in. Try again if you don't like it. I really don't know what your issue is. So much that you have to track down every parade to bless with your rain.

geoffkait
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Somewhat scientific manner
jgossman wrote:

That's what makes him happy?

So he's a little long winded. Who cares? He's not shoving anything down anyone's throat. I'm not spending my audio days loosening screws and taking covers off my equipment, etc. But it's interesting to me that HE is and that HE is approaching it in a somewhat scientific manner. Hypothesize, try it. Soak it in. Try again if you don't like it. I really don't know what your issue is. So much that you have to track down every parade to bless with your rain.

You both need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills if you think running the portable through a Dynaco into speakers is in any way comparable to what I have been talking about, you know, a much simpler earphone system, without all the shit that produces distortion. The cables, the wiring, the speaker magnets, the transformer. There's nothing scientific about it. Have you been asleep?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Asshole

That's all.

I don't even know what you're getting at or where you're going. All you do is lob insults and change the subject.

geoffkait
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See, this is what happens
jgossman wrote:

That's all.

I don't even know what you're getting at or where you're going. All you do is lob insults and change the subject.

This is what happens when I try to have a scientific discussion with someone with a high school equivalency. About time for that cold shower, eh?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

iosiP
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Geoff, as May would put it, you're asymmetrical

From the point of view of our senses, this means that all comments written by you are constantly, by virtue of personal attacks and aggressivity, pointing to your ass and then to your mouth. This creates a most alarming and disconcerting situation for your stomach to attempt to resolve.

See original at http://pwbelectronics.co.uk/whatamess.html

ChrisS
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Geoff-y, You've Been Out..

too long!

When Michael ventures into the world, he has great discussions about tuning, he makes friends, he does a lot of business, he interacts with everybody.

When someone lets you out, you don't seem to do any of that.

Call a cab. Go home.

michael green
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reminds me

Seeing some of these interactions between music lovers and audio talkers reminds me of going to the Shows. I found it interesting that there would be free concerts for audiophiles to visit at the CES and other shows, but you saw very few audiophiles attending. There's most certainly a disconnect between the typical high end audio audiophile and the music lover. Pretty creepy really.

I hope the last few months have given a picture as to these differences.

It's very strange to have someone say "pushing tuning down peoples throats". It shows me how out of touch high end audio really is from the music community. Have these people never seen a band seconds before the show begins, and inbetween the songs? I've never seen an audience say "darn their tuning again" at a concert, or "I wish he hadn't done that" during a recording session.

All I'm doing is introducing the next logical step to this hobby, and some of these people act like I just beatup their mother. I'm not the one who swung this hobby out of tune guys, I'm just someone who cares enough to put it back in-tune. I don't understand the level of fear people have about progression. All industries do it. Maybe in this industry the spins were put on a little deeper than others, but that's not going to stop the wheels from turning. Time will move on and high end anything will eventually move toward an improvement in the technology. You nor I can stop this from happening and why would you?

I mean what's so tough about going to a forum and reading about people tuning in their systems? Are audiophiles afraid someone is going to make them wear a tuning T-Shirt? Which BTW the "Get Tuned" girls will be at the winter CES, followed by our you tube video complete in their tuning attire :)

There's no stopping the tune, look at how the magazines have slowly changed from all components to talking about acoustics and tweaks. It's just the beginning of understanding, and before too long the talk will change from kill the sound to bring it to life, watch and see. It will go from fixed to variable, and from components to tools.

So if some guy in his sixties doesn't get it no biggie, he can read about what just past him by or his grandkids can share it with him. Honestly though, let me ask you guys. Did you really think high end audio would get to a place of stuck and not have someone move things along to the next level? Is it really so hard to see someone in music doing what I'm doing?

Why wouldn't I be listening to a tunable system is what I'm saying? Why would the audiophile not want to associate with the most common practice in all of music? I would think that people would get in line to claim they have a tuned setup. Geoff and people like him make it sound like it's better not to be in-tune.

The question is not why tuning, but why not tuning? Are you guys telling me you want your systems out of tune? Or how about telling the piano player we're going to remove his choice pedals. Make the connection people. Big deal, so high end audio didn't know about tuning, now they can incorporate.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

ChrisS
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Saying Geoff is part...

...of the community is a stretch. Like I said before, having a discussion with him is like trying to have a conversation with someone in a bar.

iosiP
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Sorry Chris

Talking to someone in a bar always allows you to say "sorryI'mgonnapee" and never come back again close to the moron. But here we have to make up do with what the moron says!

Oh yes, and any decent bar has bodyguards throwing out old incontinent drunkards. But looks like this forum has no moderators...

michael green
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yep

Yep, I would have to agree. The lack of mods is a bit of a mystery to me as well.

First grade picture posting is not exactly what I expected to find on something that J Gordon or Harry Pearson put pen to.

This forum could be so much better if the class was brought up a few notches.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

ChrisS
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One of the gang...

That's exactly how you treat someone like Geoff. Take your drink and head the other way...

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What's He Sayin'...?

There's really no need to enter into a discussion or "interact" with Geoff in any way. He doesn't really represent much in the audio community.

He's like that guy we all meet in a bar who's got a lot to say, but doesn't say anything. Looking at pages and pages of his entries on this forum, he's just annoying.

The mods/bouncers can put him in a cab and send him home. Or we just walk away.

michael green
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or

Or as Geoff says "we can all go back to school and end up with a Sony Walkman Sport2 portable cassette player as our reference system".

This Geoff guy is one smooth cat, for sure the future of stereo. Oh wait sorry he doesn't like soundstages, my bad.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Everything is topsy turvy

Everything is topsy turvy. Me topsy, you turvy. Please advise when you figure out the difference between volume and dynamic range. Oh, wait a second, look who I'm talking to, the guy who thinks soundstage is the only performance parameter. My bad.

ChrisS - walk away from what? A drunk mumbling to himself? The rules of the game here are simple, even a drunk can remember them: I win, you lose.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
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Looking in the mirror?
iosiP wrote:

Talking to someone in a bar always allows you to say "sorryI'mgonnapee" and never come back again close to the moron. But here we have to make up do with what the moron says!

Oh yes, and any decent bar has bodyguards throwing out old incontinent drunkards. But looks like this forum has no moderators...

Good one! Looking in the mirror again? There is only one rule here and that rule is I win, you lose.

Give my condolences to your liver.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
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Win?

Spoken like one of "The Hollow Men"...

geoffkait
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Nice to smell you again

What's that fragrance., Eau de Vomit?

Geoff Kait
Machina dYNAMICA

ChrisS
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Praying at The Great White Temple...

It's not the light at the end of the tunnel.

michael green
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don't think so Geoff

Geoff

I can't speak for everyone but it appears that you giving meaning to audio terms is not exactly what the audio God's had in mind.

you again said

"Everything is topsy turvy. Me topsy, you turvy. Please advise when you figure out the difference between volume and dynamic range. Oh, wait a second, look who I'm talking to, the guy who thinks soundstage is the only performance parameter. My bad."

Do you really want to keep making statements like this?

This is showing you don't know very much about recording or playback. Calling recording engineers names is not going to win you any friends in almost any part of this industry.

If people wish to go back and read, they can see where and how all the parts to the recording are found inside of the soundstage, it's what stereo is. Tone, dynamics, volume, value, harmonic structures, space, time, pace, pitch are all inside of the Soundstage. The soundstage is like the Earth's atmosphere. Inside of this evironment are all the elements that hold the parts and pieces together. Saying any of these parts can operate independent of the stage is physically impossible as they are all pieces of a whole. That "whole" is the actual recording itself, and if not able to be played as the "whole", meaning real size and space, than the conclusion is, not all the recording is being played back. This means that any one of those parts and pieces have something missing until the whole is achieved.

You can't look at a globe and decide your going to start removing states countries or even continents and assume your looking at the whole globe. You can look at parts and pieces close up, but you can't say this is the world until you back up and take a look at the whole thing, and the whole thing in context of how it works. It's the globe and all the energies that keep showing themselves as you keep opening up and pulling back.

Saying the Stage is the whole is exactly how it works. The Earth doesn't do so well when you don't include the universe (space). So looking at something like tonal qualities for example is only like looking at a forcast in a particular area on the planet and how it works over a particular mass. It's not the whole picture at all, it's just what's going on in that particular spot in the soundstage.

The body works the same way. You can limit yourself to take in the audio through the ears only or you can open the event up to involve all of you (vibrations).

So, what I see Geoff doing is first choosing to take in the music with only a small part of his body, and then limiting his focus to the state of Nebraska and claiming it as the whole music experience. That's cool if he is going to retire in Nebraska, but if he is planing to travel to other recordings and hear the world he's going to need to do it by means of the soundstage. You can't squeeze the music into one sound incomplete, and call it right. Sorry but this is how recordings are and how they are meant to work. Looking at the Nebraska road map might be fun, but there's a big world out there.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Ah, there you go again
michael green wrote:

Geoff

I can't speak for everyone but it appears that you giving meaning to audio terms is not exactly what the audio God's had in mind.

>>>>>>I describe things in my own terms. Why would I try to use someone else's words? If you don't understand what I am referring to then ask me to define my terms or get a better vocabulary. But limiting your audio vocabulary to SOUNDSTAGE seem way to restrictive and even self serving. I have already stated many times, I can't help it if it hasn't sunken in, that there are many audio parameters, characteristics, adjectives, that can and should be applied to the sound other than soundstage. If you wish to continue to presemt yourself as some sort of soundstage freak be my guest.

you again said

"Everything is topsy turvy. Me topsy, you turvy. Please advise when you figure out the difference between volume and dynamic range. Oh, wait a second, look who I'm talking to, the guy who thinks soundstage is the only performance parameter. My bad."

Do you really want to keep making statements like this?

>>>>>Why not? You are presenting yourself as someone who puts soundstage above everything else. Even to the exclusion of everything else.

This is showing you don't know very much about recording or playback. Calling recording engineers names is not going to win you any friends in almost any part of this industry.

>>>>>I called them names? Where is that? Are you now saying you have not called anyone names here? Boy, what a hypocrite! Your memory is conveniently missing in action.

If people wish to go back and read, they can see where and how all the parts to the recording are found inside of the soundstage, it's what stereo is. Tone, dynamics, volume, value, harmonic structures, space, time, pace, pitch are all inside of the Soundstage. The soundstage is like the Earth's atmosphere. Inside of this evironment are all the elements that hold the parts and pieces together. Saying any of these parts can operate independent of the stage is physically impossible as they are all pieces of a whole. That "whole" is the actual recording itself, and if not able to be played as the "whole", meaning real size and space, than the conclusion is, not all the recording is being played back. This means that any one of those parts and pieces have something missing until the whole is achieved.

>>>>>Again with the soundstage is everything. The soundstage is like the Earth's atmosphere? Is that what audio engineers think? Really? What ever happened to transparency, pitch, tone, rhythm, bass response, musicality, air, and snap, crackle and pop?! It is quite possible to have a great soundstage and not have all the rest, happens all the time. It's actually better to have a good vocabulary when trying to describe the sound you hear to someone else, someone who cannot BE there to hear it for himself. You know, as opposed to trying to describe the sound of someone's system by looking at a picture of the system or the room.

You can't look at a globe and decide your going to start removing states countries or even continents and assume your looking at the whole globe. You can look at parts and pieces close up, but you can't say this is the world until you back up and take a look at the whole thing, and the whole thing in context of how it works. It's the globe and all the energies that keep showing themselves as you keep opening up and pulling back.

>>>>>>Actually, and I realize you have a short memory for these things, there are many things WRONG with playback systems, especially digital systems. That is why it is important, well, critical to find the problems that exist and attempt to correct them. Otherwise, what's the expression, you're just burying your head in the sand. It is just as possible to get soundstage without tone and without pitch and without details as it is to get great tone, air and pitch, without a great soundstage as you can with headphones. That is the reason why many folks prefer headphones I suspect. It is for me. Unless you address the scattered laser light, the magnetic fields in cables, the transformer magnetic fields, and the vibration in circuit boards and the other things I've been talking about you are living in a Fool's Paradise.

Saying the Stage is the whole is exactly how it works. The Earth doesn't do so well when you don't include the universe (space). So looking at something like tonal qualities for example is only like looking at a forcast in a particular area on the planet and how it works over a particular mass. It's not the whole picture at all, it's just what's going on in that particular spot in the soundstage.

>>>>>>Goodness, you do go on. What about transparency, air, pitch, etc. Etc.?

The body works the same way. You can limit yourself to take in the audio through the ears only or you can open the event up to involve all of you (vibrations).

>>>>>>Oh, geez, here we go again with the vibrations. Well, I am going to throw my hands up in the air!! I suspect we have beat this baby to death. There is no better example of the BACKFIRE EFFECT in all of these threads than your "let the vibrations be free" argument. If it were really true that vibrations are good for the sound, I have an idea for a new Tuning product for you, a shaker table. If you won't listen to reasons and isolate the components from vibration at least you can vibrate the crap out of them. Shake it Don't Break it! Or maybe Shake and Bake, lol

So, what I see Geoff doing is first choosing to take in the music with only a small part of his body, and then limiting his focus to the state of Nebraska and claiming it as the whole music experience. That's cool if he is going to retire in Nebraska, but if he is planing to travel to other recordings and hear the world he's going to need to do it by means of the soundstage. You can't squeeze the music into one sound incomplete, and call it right. Sorry but this is how recordings are and how they are meant to work. Looking at the Nebraska road map might be fun, but there's a big world out there.

>>>>>>Well, actually that's not what I'm doing at all. What I am doing is finding problems and solving them. See, that's not too hard to understand. Problems like static electricity, magnetic fields, the Vibrating Earths crust, the vibrating Transformer, the vibrating capacitors, scattered background scattered light. All of which I have already pointed out. At this point in time I get the distinct impression that I'm pissing up a rope.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Geoff Kait
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lol

That was actually quite funny!

my partial list was
Tone, dynamics, volume, value, harmonic structures, space, time, pace, pitch

your partial list was
transparency, pitch, tone, rhythm, bass response, musicality, air, and snap, crackle and pop

Are any of these independent of the SoundStage? Your list or mine, or anyone elses? They have to be hosted by something Geoff? There's not just going to appear by themselves goofhead lol.

Your trying so hard to be contary, you make everyones point for them.

I give a detailed account of the signal path and the things that go on and how to treat them for all to read, then you come back with "scattered laser light, the magnetic fields in cables, the transformer magnetic fields, and the vibration in circuit boards and the other things I've been talking about", which I addressed all of them and how they were treated, and started two specific threads to address all of these plus an entire forum of my own where we have been working on these in real time. In usual fashion though you couldn't stand this and instead of starting a thread of your own decide to jump in with your spins and distractions, without ever thinking that a reader is more than likely coming up to read from the begining then gets to the place where you start jumping in all in a panic, and are probably looking at you as if "why is he doing that when someone was addressing the issues".

and after all

you make the statement

"Problems like static electricity, magnetic fields, the Vibrating Earths crust, the vibrating Transformer, the vibrating capacitors, scattered background scattered light. All of which I have already pointed out. At this point in time I get the distinct impression that I'm pissing up a rope."

lol

It's almost like an SNL character you have created that keeps popping up with these lines, as if no one on the planet has ever looked at them, but the group being lectured by you is standing at the laser plant while you are at home ranting about how they are not there. Every skit that gets played is shot in the actual place and while they are working on something you are at a completely different location (like in the middle of a field) telling them they're not where they really are.

Then at the end of every skit has a shot of you standing in a remote place saying "All of which I have already pointed out. At this point in time I get the distinct impression that I'm pissing up a rope."

All of this to me, if it wasn't so time consuming, is quite funny. You calling everyone every name in the book while telling them they are calling you names, you bring up tweaks that almost every one has tried 30 years ago and acting like you discovered them, you discovering just now the Sony Walkman after it was introduced in the 70's, as the answer to high end audio. Your spins of course, and probably the most interesting is you talking down to almost everyone, but most of them are actually quite a bit brighter than yourself. Then you throw in the title of NASA and all of us who have lived near the space centers start thinking "dear maybe we should move away from this place".

Half the time I'm feeling bad for these audiophiles who have to deal with this and the other half of the time you keep me from turning on the comedy channel.

michael green
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Name calling, part 3

Aside from name calling some more what can you tell me about how you deal with scattered laser light and the magnetic fields in transformers and speaker magnets and the induced magnetism in cables and wires and how you deal with RFI/EMI. And please do tell how you deal with the directionality of fuses and wires and cables. And I'm expecting something beyond the usual pablum response of "we deal with all of those things." You cannot get rid of them with a wave of the hair.

Which name are you thinking of adopting for your Tuning Foundation, Shake 'N Bake or Shake it Don't Break it?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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A good idea

Not a bad idea, but so I don't have to repeat or have someone spin off into nowhere land, I'll point to threads on TuneLand. Let me start with lasers in audio.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t269-how-do-cd-s-work

Also for those wanting to read this thread without the Geoff spins.

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code

michael green
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CDs

geoffkait, Ive been pissed off for months about how the treble sounds on my CDs. I tried switching to better speakers. Same sound. I bought a better player(Marantz SACD player). Same sound. The top end sounds something like ( Ive given this a lot of thought), a steel cookie pan with a hundred bb's rolling around on it. In fact, the better equipment seems to make it even worse. The only CDs I have which has a listenable high end are Classical. Maybe it's the way pop and rock are recorded?

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Exacta Mundo!

Yes, that's the primary issue, the treble. There are things you can do to improve it, to make it less harsh, less irritating, more natural, more detailed, more extended, with more air, but a lot of effort is generally required. That's why the humble cassette is such a Godsend. Beautiful, flesh out and extended treble. CDs just don't have the sweetness, the air, the naturalness of tape.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the King's horses, And all the King's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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That's actually pretty spot on

For it's faults, cassette is the most "immediate" and tactile format - including LP currently available. Little music is released on cassette anymore, but it is, especially if you get a good Nakamichi or Teac deck from the late 80's or 90's in most ways a superior format to CD. The one area where it is better, dynamic range, doesn't matter because no recording engineer takes advantage of it anyway. The siblance in most vocals especially.

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would be nice

I haven't found a problem with CD's themselves, but CD Players and systems. Still though, it does seem sad that tape was moved to the back of the class.

I would imagine if the audiophile numbers did come back enough to support a market, tape could make a comeback. Hopefully with a little better cassette mechanics, as jgossman is saying.

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so you've been told

Hi David

you said

"the better equipment seems to make it even worse"

Better equipment doesn't make something sound worse. If it sounds worse this means you went the wrong direction in the equipments abilities. I can all but bet, if you had a modded Magnavox 2100 player sitting on the right feet and or platform your view of your CD's would reverse pretty quick.

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Actually that's the same argument that got us where we are today
jgossman wrote:

For it's faults, cassette is the most "immediate" and tactile format - including LP currently available. Little music is released on cassette anymore, but it is, especially if you get a good Nakamichi or Teac deck from the late 80's or 90's in most ways a superior format to CD. The one area where it is better, dynamic range, doesn't matter because no recording engineer takes advantage of it anyway. The siblance in most vocals especially.

That's precisely what they said about digital, all we need is a better mechanism, or better DAC, better, speakers, better sample rates, and all the rest of it. As Roger Miller put it so well, You Can't Roller Skate in a Buffalo Herd. A relatively cheap and relatively UN-technically advanced cassette player will kick an expensive CD player's ass any day of the week in most ways that matter. Digital was the single most obvious con job ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting naive public.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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have you compared

Geoff

Have you compared your portable tape players vs tape decks?

Also, guys who are experiencing the trouble in the higher frequencies with CD's would you share how your system is setup?

Where I'm going with this so there is no guessing, is back to the audio code where we started. If your system is not playing the signal it could easily make the highs react. This is more sensitive with digital. This doesn't make digital good or bad just more picky when it comes to playback.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about people who are doing general listening but those who have some real size and space going on. When someone says to me they have a brighter sound with any source I immediately know they are listening to a smaller than life stage.

michael green
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Most of the problem rests with the recording

I prefer analog, but a well recorded CD still gets my juices flowing. A poorly engineered recording, of which there are many, and poor in a variety of ways not limited to simply going way over the top with compression, are far more objectionable in a system put together to reproduce the really good recordings in the best way possible.

A well engineered recording will sound good on ANY system, but a poorly engineered recording will only sound acceptable on a system with very limited capabilities to begin with.

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that's just not the case

Sorry Catch but that's just not the case. Limited systems play limited music.

Systems that can replay the code will play whatever is there.

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portables vs tape decks
michael green wrote:

Geoff

Have you compared your portable tape players vs tape decks?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

No, I haven't. Have you?

Geoff Kait
machine Dynamica

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Yes

Hi Geoff yes I have. It was part of my job as tape runner.

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Huh?
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff yes I have. It was part of my job as tape runner.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

So, let me ask you, what does that have to do with the price of spinach since my whole point has to do with comparing a portable cassette player to CD? I do have a Sony Cassette Walkman Professional model here if that helps.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Ah, I see..
geoffkait wrote:
jgossman wrote:

For it's faults, cassette is the most "immediate" and tactile format - including LP currently available. Little music is released on cassette anymore, but it is, especially if you get a good Nakamichi or Teac deck from the late 80's or 90's in most ways a superior format to CD. The one area where it is better, dynamic range, doesn't matter because no recording engineer takes advantage of it anyway. The siblance in most vocals especially.

That's precisely what they said about digital, all we need is a better mechanism, or better DAC, better, speakers, better sample rates, and all the rest of it. As Roger Miller put it so well, You Can't Roller Skate in a Buffalo Herd. A relatively cheap and relatively UN-technically advanced cassette player will kick an expensive CD player's ass any day of the week in most ways that matter. Digital was the single most obvious con job ever perpetrated on an unsuspecting naive public.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

So all the effort Sony, Nakamichi, JVC, etc. put into getting S/N ratio to levels exceeding that of most CDP's (around 89db - approaching that of the associated solid state electronics) and the effort Nakamichi put toward surpassing R2R wow and flutter numbers, which they had done on pretty much all decks by the mid 80's and were nearing unmeasurable by the 90's - that was all for naught? All that had nothing to do with the depth and width of the sound stage of say a Nakamichi LX-5 or the power and dynamics of a Tascam 122?

I'm happy you found the joy's of the "lowly" (said with a dose of irony) cassette, but this is an exercise in futility if you'd rather listen to tapes on your walkman than my old (and sold :( ) LX-5, the 480 I'm repairing, or my once mighty 581 which has unfortunately become a parts deck (it is nearly 40 years old). Or for that matter the lowly low end Sony now in my system or the Technics M7 I'm restoring.

I understand the joy of discovering something is better than it should be, but being skeptical of something that is clearly better? I don't get it.

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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

So, let me ask you, what does that have to do with the price of spinach since my whole point has to do with comparing a portable cassette player to CD?

The point is simple: if you did compare and found the tape deck sounds better your whole theory about "look ma, no transformers" goes down the drain.

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CD's

Hi, Micheal. Better equipment can, indeed,make a CD sound sound worse because it reveals the shortcomings of the recording and the medium (CD)which were not apparent on lesser gear. The distortion was always there, but my previous system's frequency response wasn't reproducing it as accurately.
I just received from Music Direct a High-Fidelity Pure-Audio Blu Ray of Supertramps"Crime of the Century". It blew me away. I've finally heard something which makes owning a Hi-Fi system worth it. NO HIGH-FREQUENCY DISTORTION!!! The piano sounds as if it's in the room with you. You can actually hear the wood cabinet of the piano. Anyone who's heard an actual piano in real life knows what I mean. The dynamic range is awesome. I've never heard anything like it in my living room. The disc is 24bit/192Khz. The crescendo in "Crime of the Century", starting with the drumbeats, had me sitting there in disbelief. This is the format I'm buying from now on. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of titles available on this format.I'm going to order a Diane Krall disc, and Supertramps "Breakfast in America" My speakers(Polk Rtia5's) finally sounded the way they,re supposed to. I can't believe the crappy quality of most regular CD's. The only ones that sound decent to me are "The Traveling Wilburys" And Robert Plants "Principal of Moments". The Beatles "Let it Be" sounds surprisingly good.

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I have heard this..

But it never lessened my enjoyment of my CD's. My Arcam CD 72, another unit I wish I'd never sold, really made some recordings sound pretty terrible compared to the Denon DCD 1520 (I think) that I was using before. That said, the best recordings I had met and sometimes surpassed the commercial release on both LP and cassette via both my Nak's. It was a VERY good CD player. And one day I may get another now that they are cheap. It's nice when a unit is so good that it becomes THE ubiquitous audiophile player. When you want one used, there are hundreds for sale at any given time!

Just because we all (almost) agree that the cassette and LP are often superior to CD doesn't mean you abandon the format. That would be silly.

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Out of curiosity

What would you listen to on those excellent cassette decks? AFAIQ there is no offer for pre-recorded cassettes (and anyhow most of the old ones were dubbed on high-speed machines with horrible results).
BTW, I am shopping for a R2R machine but this will be just for fun, to make my own selections from my CD collection (yes, I could easily do this on my computer but then there is the magic of the spinning reels).

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Double HUh?
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

So, let me ask you, what does that have to do with the price of spinach since my whole point has to do with comparing a portable cassette player to CD?

The point is simple: if you did compare and found the tape deck sounds better your whole theory about "look ma, no transformers" goes down the drain.

Well, if you go back and read what I said there was a lot more to it than just the transformer, but you're getting warm. Besides, I was unaware tape decks had big transformers in them. Maybe you're confusing them with amplifiers, who knows. In addition, have you forgotten the fine work with mu metal reported by the two dudes from Pittsburgh? Hint: we already know that transformers are bad for the sound. You can scratch it off your list of controversial audio topics.

Geoff Kait
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Wrong again!

You wrote

Quote:

Here we go: no transformers, no capacitors, no big motors, full range transducers I.e., no crossovers in the earphone drivers, very lightweight transducers for lightning fast transient response, no cabling, no electronics boxes, no chassis, no house power, no ground so no ground issues, relative immunity to RFI/EMI, no room anomalies to worry Po me anymore, no thin, bass shy, tizzy synthetic CD sound due to a while raft of ills, including scattered laser light, out of round CDs, no seismic isolation, etc. etc., etc.

Now let me see:
1. A cassette deck has transformers, so it should sound worse than the walkman (FIY, a 3-motor deck requires a bigger transformer than your usual CD player).
2. A 3-motor deck has "more motor" than a CD player, so it should sound worse than the walkman.
3. Full-range transducers? For me, full range means 20Hz to 20kHz. How does an organ concert sound on the earphones, and what "dynamics" can you get from them??
4. Yes you are right about the rest but my argument still stands: if a cassette deck (with all the transformers, capacitors, motors, cabling, electronics boxes, chassis, house power, ground etc. etc., etc.) sounds better than the walkman what exactly remains valid from your arguments?

P.S. You can use the same headphones on a cassette deck (at least most of them).

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tape and CD's

Hi Geoff

I was asking so I could see how much experience you have had with tape and the sound of it. Since the topic is called "the audio code" I was trying to figure out where your posts were fitting in.

There are several levels of tape machines and tape itself, and I don't think we should be making general statements without understanding the scope of what we are talking about.

To answer the question of "me having a portable vs deck"? My answer was yes and a fairly good understanding of taping along the audio chain including being a tape runner. You asked "what does that have to do with anything". I assume you don't know what a tape runner does?

A runner controls the mastering machines and makes the copy masters. After this the masters are made into mastering slaves. The system (depending on how direct and speed and bias), is a few machines hooked up to each other pumping out the reel to reels or cassettes, or in my case those plus DAT, Beta, VHS, 8-trac (studio track), and 3/4". Every machine sounds slightly different from the next as well as every cassette does. My job was not only making the copies from start to finish but also referencing the sound quality of the tapes as they played on different take playback machines. My particular setup had several of the new models of tape machines from portables to home to car playbacks. We were an independent lab for Sony, JVC and a few others.

Your point being that you have a walkman and pro walkman now according to you, and I worked on the entire process, and feel like we need to be talking about what things really are and not making statements based on limited knowledge or doing. I notice that a lot of times guys come up here and make comments but they're not really based on much more than a couple of systems owned over the years. I ran into this a lot on the pro-side as well. I'm not sure why the pro-side and home playing side aren't closer in touch, it would save a bunch of guys throwing around guesses as if they were fact.

What I would like to see is us getting down to what really is instead of all these loosely written opinions and assumptions. There are people out there including myself who actual have done the work.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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