Welcome to the dark side of the force, Luke!

I think you're entitled to whatever deal you deem reasonable. The dealer is entitled to either accept it or reject it. What he's not entitled to is to go on a tirade. It's not your concern what kind of a car he drives. It's not your concern how he's to generate a profit. Your concern is to get the best hi-fi for the money. If he feels he can't meet your price, he can either counter offer or refuse all together. However, telling you that "people like you piss him off" tells me he shouldn't be in business in the first place.

OMG! 7 large isn

X2 on Alex. I feel absolutely fine paying a reasonable premium to buy something from a dealer -- if you have problems later, they can be very helpful (not to mention the help they offer in deciding what to purchase).

But if they treat me, the customer, like I'm a pain in their ass, there is no freaking way I'm going to give them a dime over internet discount price. Of course, I don't know exactly how this went down, but the dealer was stupid for going on a rant no matter what you said to him. If he doesn't feel like he can afford to give you a discount, it is his privilege not to do so (and you can of course disagree with his business judgment). But as soon as he starts ranting, screw him.

Start here; http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=1&vc=1

Please keep in mind Alex has a vey different take on this subject than the majority of forum members. He has been called immoral and a thief by several members due to his attitudes on this topic. To be fair, not all members totally disagree with Alex though most are not as extreme in their opinions as Alex is in his.

Whether you agree with Alex or with the other forum members is for you to decide, I'm not interested in another go around with Alex over this particular topic. I've done this with him several times already and everything that needs to be said about the subject has, IMO, been said. I think it's fair to say most members disagree with Alex on this topic. (If you want to read more on the disagreements Alex and I have had on this subject, you'll have to do some digging through the forum archives.)

As a former salesperson I would have told you much the same thing on your old equipment, you'll do better as far as cash back is concerned by selling them yourself. This is pretty much the same advice you'll hear on any trade in product, the dealer was not being dishonest or disrespectful in this advice. A dealer must make profit to stay in business and they have to price your trade at no more than you can get on your own. They also are expected to stand behind a product they took in as a favor to the client. There aren't many dealers who take trades for this very reason. The odds are not in the favor of the house on this deal. So give your dealer a break on this one. There is a hassle on your part to sell the items yourself and this is what you trade off when you agree to trade in with a dealer. Which is more important to you, cash or convenience and speed?

Otherwise, it sounds as if you've got yourself off on the wrong foot in negotiations with this dealer. Who is at fault isn't for me to decide though I've been in the dealer's shoes more often than I have seen this as a client. As a client I knew what the dealer was saying and whether I was being jived or not.

The thing here is we all rationalize our own behavior while demonizing the other fellow's position as unreasonable. Pride then typically gets in the way of either party benefitting from the situation.

I would say it's time to reassess your position and decide whether you have any way forward with this dealer. If you've already burned your bridges and there is no hope of repairing the damage done to both sides by either side, then maybe it's best to leave this dealer behind and find another.

There are potential risks involved in this however, you might need a dealer's assistance at some point. Does that risk outweigh the disadvantage of dealing with a less than sociable retailer? Like all human interactions, once you've done the damage to a relationship it's difficult to get back to a neutral position of trust.

Depending on your political affliation, I would say look at the new President and the opposition party over the last two weeks. One side has a vested inetrest in not working with the other. Who benefits as this little drama is being played out?

If you feel you can re-establish this trust with this particular dealer, then I would say give them another chance. Take the position of being the one who says, "Let's make a deal that's fair to both of us." What would you have to loose by doing this? Your pride? If that's all that stands in the way of getting back to a degree of trust, then you'll have to decide whether it's worth the effort to you for the benefits you'll receive.

Why would you even think twice about saving 2,000.00?

Buy on the internet, there is nothing Immoral about that.

The dealer deserves to lose your business after his unprofessional response.

Frankly, he deserves to go out of business with that kind of behavior.

Agreed about the rant.

7K is, to me, a BIG purchase!

I could see a response to your request that was more polite and perhaps focused on why the dealer would actually be providing you value in the long run; talking about trade ups, or loaners during service, or handling your shipping for warranty work or upgrades...maybe telling you straight up that if they factor in employee time and other considerations, they would not be able to offer you the same trade in value as you'd realize by selling your gear online...and since this probably comes up alot, having a pre-printed list of online selling resources and which they might recommend.

Telling you to piss off and go sell your kit online and only come back with cash ready to pay full retail sets off alarms bells, and I like brick and mortar dealers!

Then, ranting about how you piss them off and telling you to basically go to hell until you have the cash money...yikes!

On the plus side, they did you a favor.

Translated into English, they told you, "Please don't do business here," and that's powerfully helpful info. Imagine how helpful they would likely be once they had your cash and you came in with a concern!

You got lucky. It's like learning on the first date a chick is crazy rather than having to wait until your honeymoon to find out!

Don't even go back.

Wait a bit to ponder the gear some more and sell your stuff.

Audiogon is a good site, as are Audio Asylum's classifieds, and there's Ebay. I watch Craig's List and it seems to be more of a "found this in my garage" site than a high end sales vehicle.

Check out what you can accomplish for your sale, and then take your time finding a retailer you like. If you can't, and these days are strange, then go for it online - after checking out the reputation of the source to see how other people's experiences have been.

Feel free to ask here about where to find certain pieces, too! Or even how much to ask when you sell your stuff!

Cheers.

At least in this situation, morality isn't even a factor. You look after your interests, and the dealer looks after his. I happen to think that dealers often provide value that is worth some extra dough, so looking at it in flat price terms is a bad decision although it should certainly be one of many factors. If the dealer does not add any value to a transaction, but demands a higher price, you're just a fool for accepting it. Not moral/immoral. Again, dealers IMHO are often worth the extra money. If this experience is as you describe, it sounds like an exception to the general rule -- and I hope it is a rare exception at that.

There's more to this than meets the eye. Keep in mind though I'm talking from my Australian experience which may, or may not, reflect business practices in other countries.
Dealers here often don't want to touch trade ins because they no longer have the luxury of an in house technician to check them over, and possibly repair them, for re-sale. Most audio retailers now use external repair shops. and often only for their warrantee work. Most of these usually charge like wounded bulls for their work. So, by the time they'd have your trade-in checked, serviced and re-sold they are often loosing on the deal. What many of them don't understand is that a shop that may be loosing by re-selling trade ins is the shop that's attracting potential future full price sales. Swings and slides I suppose.
In the long run though I think we can blame both manufacturers and customers for a 'chuck it in the rubbish' attitude that's resulted in very few audio/HT repair technicians passing through the education system.
Just try and find a competant technician to repair that, say, Mark Levinson 332 reference power amplifier you bought at bargain price off eBay that's arrived dead as a dodo by courier .
As to not offering any discount on a $7000US purchase (without trade in), who knows what that particular dealers' mark-up really is? The sad reality is that a particular piece you have your eye on might only have one dealer for that brand anywhere within hundreds of miles. I don't know about anyone else, but If I didn't have the blessing of a brilliant technician as a close friend there are many brands I wouldn't consider buying because I know the retailer is a $100 air ticket away & doesn't have a proper in-house repair department.
Often in cases such as the original poster's problem it can help if you phone ( don't fax or email) the manufacturer. Don't tell them you're chasing a discount, and ask for a list of recommended dealers within reasonable a distance.
You may however find they all refuse to discount due to the manufacturer preventing them (illegally?) doing so.
As to that salesperson giving you that lecture, at that point I would have given a very rude lecture back on counterproductive sales techniques.
Good luck with trying to get rid of that $7000 but my advice is only ever bargain for Persian rugs and sex.

"A $4k power amp has a manufacturing cost of probably $500 tops the rest is mark up and profit for everyone."

This is wrong. I wish it where true, but it is not correct. The costs are notably higher than that.

The responsibility lies in the hands of the manufacturer and the distributor to protect the dealer..and also in the hands of the distributor and manufacturer to be sure they have a responsible dealer.

the idea of dumping a product on line for $5k-that's too low, if the retail is $7k. This is very unlikely. I can see near $6k, is the high $5k area, but not $5,000 on a retail $7,000 item. That dealer letting it go, on line..for $5k, would be allowed to do that ONCE, and never again. Their restocking orders would NOT be fulfilled, if it was our situation. They would be collapsing our business and company with their desire to put what amounts to a pittance in their pocket. This, obviously, we will not allow. It's the same for any other manufacturers, relatively speaking.

We've had times where a retailer has tried to dump our product 'on line', and we've bought every piece in their store back --- and shut them down.

Honda has become smart about this recently and has bought back all used Hondas they can at/by the given dealership, in order to prop up the used prices of Hondas..and to support their dealers.

I can certainly understand a lower than market value for a trade in. Especially when one remembers that trade-ins may sit on the shelf for literally a year or two (sometimes more) waiting for that perfect buyer to come along so his remark about selling it on line was actually being fair to you. Instead of just offering the reduced price he advised you how you could get more for your old gear.

As far as how he responded to you request for a discount. It's ALWAYS your right to politely ask and it's ALWAYS his right to refuse and offer a professional explanation for his refusal. But trying to guilt you into paying full price would be a little childish on his part. However from your post it isn't clear how much time he spent with you before you asked for a discount. The more service the dealer has provided (allowing audition time in the store, changing equipment around for you, long discussions, and/or allowing you to take a unit home and try it out in your system) the less you should expect the opportunity of a discount.

KBK, you're coming dangerously close (to put it mildly) to admitting violations of antitrust laws.

There is a solution to that, it's called 'The Colgate Decision'. Look it up. It is exactly what I spoke of in my post, and it allows a company to survive if recklessly endangered by a retailer. Giving me grief about trying to keep stability in pricing, without knowing the depth of the details or situation - is not good, either. However, you are correct, my wording was bad, and will lead to misconceptions of what I actually mean.

For example, both parties agreed to part ways - we bought their stock back to make it easier for them to exit the market.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Distributors and retailers have been known, the odd time, to grab a line to freeze it's advance in a country or freeze it's advance in a given City area. I've received word from several directions and places that a highly respected company has told their retailers that if they deal with us, that their lines (that this company produces) will be pulled from those dealers. Some won't even try our line out as an adjunct to their existing lines, as they can't afford to loose what they have-even if they love our product. It's a nasty world out there. Some buy product just to dump it and destroy their competition and the brand name in the given area. A company must protect itself. Thus..'The Colgate Decision', handed down by the US Supreme Court.

As for 'anti-trust', with what is going on and has been going on in the US right now for the past 30-40 years..man-o-man....

Edit: look up "Colgate Doctrine".

The short answer: Walmart was using Colgate product sold at below cost to kill the mom-and-pop shops. This, of course, PO'd Colgate, as they were loosing their customer base and would end up having the bulk of their future production and thus pricing, success, validity, viability, etc... dictated to them entirely by Wal-Mart, as their sole remaining customer.

Not very nice, by any measure. Brutal and underhanded in the extreme, in fact. Wal-mart Sued them for not delivering. The court found a solution that did not violate anti-trust and handed that down to Colgate, and shut Wal-mart down in this matter-in the process.

There has to be some balance out there-and the Supreme court agreed, to the point of being the one who supplied the solution, IIRC..

I'm not talking about price fixing, I'm talking about not crashing manufacturers through inconsiderate small minded behaviour. Every one in the business that is successful finds a way to handle this situation, and they tend to be similar in their means, end, and effect.

I don't speak for everyone, of course , but almost anyone who is involved in manufacturing a retail product in North America feels the same way and acts the same way...due to and through direct, real world - experience.

You will have 'one offs' or 'demo' product, or a dealer or distributor ceases to handle a given line or product. That's normal and expected. Sometimes, especially now...the product is dumped simply to put bread on the table and I certainly have no problem with that. The other deal is that sometimes the dumper has not and will never pay the invoice for the purchase of the item to the distributor or manufacturer. That can happen at any time, for sad (poor-out of business) or nefarious reasons. The nefarious ones - are the problem.

Consistent product dumping is a real and extant problem, with a plethora of issues; and the Supreme court found a way to deal with it. It's not perfect, but it is a decent solution.

I myself almost always buy used gear. This is due to the fact that I modify the hell out of any piece of gear, and this, usually in the extreme. No use buying new for that. Buying broken is great too, if I can find it. Even cheaper.

My advice to Welsh, is the same as anyone else's: Sell his used gear himself, and then find a dealer/product that suits his mood and situation better. That's the best scenario, relatively speaking. A bit more time consuming, but that's the way she goes. For any of us.

you should be able to get at least the $1500 on 'audiogon' for these 18 month old speakers. That is likely the best course. then you get the discount you may want.

As for speakers, I've designed many a pair. There is considerably more work and material in a $20k speaker pair than 'just a few drivers'. That would take pages and pages of work, and in person, tours of factories, and cost sheets to convince you of that, I'm guessing. But it's true.

If you go and sell the speakers on audiogon for the $1500..AND buy the item you desire, on line, for the $5k range..then you get a great deal. The deal is right in front of you, if you take the mission.

I too wish to support my local dealers when I need to make a purchase on a given item, and I too get slammed sometimes and - they won't meet me half way. Sometimes I go some place else, if I can...

Sometimes territorial allotments make that impossible, as dealers sign a 'sales area' agreement-and the next guy can't sell it to you, in the place you live.. Then it's off to Audiogon, for finding the used one of the item you desire. Double, no, triple bargain! It's not that big a deal to the manufacturer. At least you chose their gear to buy, even if they didn't sell it to you new. Happy people who speak about what they own are just as handy.

Several avenues are available to you. Choose one. It does not necessarily have to be this dealer you have spoken with.

If you say it is USED and ONLINE (audiogon) for $5k, then that puts a new spin on things. this leaves the option of selling your speakers and then grabbing that device for the $5k,and that's it. No biggie, a normal world, there.

But NEW for $5k, is skirting the edge of financial disaster, for everyone involved on the sales and manufacturing side of things. It does not matter if I dislike it, or think it is bad news (and it is), it is a possible bargain for you. Your choice.

Alan,

I couldn't agree with you more.

There's no excuse for the rant. However, it looks as if your rapport with the dealer is not exactly friendly. Normally, a dealer takes a used piece of equipment to resell it at a higher price. Not only he is financing it, he is also taking the risk of it not selling or sitting in his store for a long time. It is absolutely normal that you would get a better deal selling direct.

Some dealers would accept to sell it for you on consignment. You leave it in the store, ask whatever you want, and he will pay you when he sells it. You need to have a pretty good relationship witht eh dealer for him to do that though - which does not seem to be the case.

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Dont try and justify the prices on a material basis

Exactly the point. If materials were all it took to create from scratch a piece of high end merchandise worth owning, we'd all be in the high end audio business.

This is patently absurd and has no foundation in reality ...

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There is at least a 70% margin in any peice of hifi, on the esoteric stuff there is upwards of 80% margin

With that you have joined the ranks of those who make up crap just to have something to justify their own thoughts and actions and to fill a void which keeps their ears from collapsing in one another.

If you began negotiations with this figure in your head and then whittled the dealer down to your presumed 30% margin, it's no wonder you received a less than sociable response.

Zeb,

I think the crux of the problem is that aside from the rant, the dealer wanted to stick it to Alan twice. Not only did he offer a third of the market price for the speakers, but he wouldn't discount the new purchase either. He could have made a case for offering $500 for his old speakers by discounting the new ones by $1000 or offering $1500 and charging full price for the new ones. That would have meant that he would have sold the new speakers for full price and the discount would have included the trouble he would have had to go through to sell the old speakers.

There are all kinds of things the dealer could have done. However, not only did he decide to be greedy by not discounting a new purchase, which in this economy is just plain stupid, but he tried to stick it to a potential customer by offering a ridiculous price for a trade in. On top of that, he tried to brow beat the customer. I think Alan did the right thing by raising his hand with his index, middle and ring fingers up and telling that dealer to read between the lines.

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However, not only did he decide to be greedy by not discounting a new purchase...

First, I agree that this may have been a bad business decision on his part (I just don't know enough about his business to make that call).

Assuming that it was, I would argue he wasn't being greedy enough . If he wanted the money bad enough (again, assuming this was a bad business decision), everyone would be happy.

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Just because you dont like what im saying dont dismiss my knowledge.

I'm not dimsissing your knowledge. I'm saying you're making up excuses for why the dealer was unfair. You are grasping at straws to justify an unreasonable and unrealistic position.

Read my intial post in this thread ...

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The thing here is we all rationalize our own behavior while demonizing the other fellow's position as unreasonable. Pride then typically gets in the way of either party benefitting from the situation.

I say you are making up whatever suits your needs because there is no realistic basis for ...

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There is at least a 70% margin in any peice of hifi, on the esoteric stuff there is upwards of 80% margin

That, as it has been presented, is simply false. We've had this discussion before.

Expecting anything to be priced solely on the bulk cost of its parts is ridiculous. However, that is the simplistic calculation so many people want to use to prove they are being ripped off.

There really should be no reason to list every little thing a manufacturer must account for in their pricing. Any sensible person realizes parts are just a small portion of what goes into a product.

This is what you believe ...

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What you are paying for is hype and marketing.

I absolutely disagree but I know I'm not going to convince you to believe what I say. So then, let's just accept that fact that you feel you are being ripped off by the manufacturer.

What to do about that?

I think most reasonable people would conclude the following; if you don't want to pay for hype, don't pay for that product, go somewhere else and buy something else that suits your concept of fair pricing. But don't use your concept of hype to rationalize the dealer needing a profit to stay in business. Do the sensible thing and not the irrational thing. Go buy what you feel is priced at a fair price from the manufacturer and leave the dealer profit out of your argument. The dealer pays what the manufacturer sells for and doesn't make extra because you think the manufacturer is hyping their product. Tieing the two together is nothing more than you making crap up in a weak attempt to prop up your unrealistic position.

The high end audio community has a general rule for mark up that ranges from a low of approximately 3 times to 6 times the cost of parts. Some companies have a higher retail to parts cost due to their business practices. Linn, a very small bit of the very small cottage industry that serves the extremely small portion of the ultra high end, has a policy of taking care of their workers and those who support the company's future. When you pay the price Linn asks you understand this is part of what you buy into. If you don't want to pay a part of the cost of Linn's future and the future of its employees, then you don't buy Linn. Any reasonable person sees that connection and doesn't throw a hissy fit at the thought.

Everyone has a choice and no one is forced into buying any high end product. That is an indisputable fact.

Tell me this, if "Crown, QSC, Crest etc can make an extremely high quality 2000 watt amplifier for $800", why not buy one of those products?

It's your decision, if you don't want to pay what another company asks and you feel these are extremely high quality products, it would only seem to make sense to just buy what you feel is a fairly priced product.

Don't turn this around and repeat the other manufacturers should price their product like Crown, QSC and Crest do. Companies price their products as they seee fit, it's their product, their company and their future they are protecting in their pricing. Do they rely on cheap labor, cheap parts and volume sales? Or do they build a high quality product with high quality parts and a trained labor force? Yada yada ... If you can't see the difference between a Kia and a Ferrari, then don't complain about what someone else wants to drive.

Do not come back with the exhorbitant profits the manufacturers make. That is just more made up bull crap. Either you agree to the manufacturer's pricing or you go elsewhere. To stand on your heels and insist to the seller that you are being ripped off by a luxury product you choose to purchase and that you do not need for your survival is the height of absurdity.

If you see the manufcturer's price as a rip of, just tell me why you want to do business with them. The dealer in this case has no control over how the manufacturer prices their product. Which case are you arguing? Or are you just throwing all the bullshit that comes into your head up against the wall to see what sticks?

What you've done is conflate how the manufacturer prices their product with how the dealer makes profit. This is the same thing Alex has tried to do over and over again. And whether from you or him, it is bullshit.

This is not how you win an argument - if this isn't this then that must be that. It only works when the two are clearly linked and in this case they are not.

Now, do you want to discuss how Crown prices their products? Or, do you want to discuss whether you should buy from this particular dealer?

Because I have no interest in more of the made up bullshit that passes for reality on this forum. I truly don't care what you buy or who you buy it from. I really am not feeling sorry for you when the dealer kicked you out of his shop. And, until you learn how to put together an argument that actually has two legs to stand on, I'm done. You're wasting my time.

Go buy a Crown and shut up about it.

KBK - Granted, the wording was probably just a bit off. Also, MY wording was a bit off and sounded much more like an accusation than I intended. But also remember (as I mentioned before) that state laws can be more restrictive than federal laws. You seem like you've looked into it, so you probably understand this already. If you think you might be on the border, though, you should of course talk to a lawyer. If you have a lawyer you use, state law research shouldn't take too much time.

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or am i being to simple again ?

Yep, yep, you are. But that's being too kind.

You're being dishonest when you post this ...

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You even state yourself that there is 80% + mark up yet say im making it up !!

And posting personal insults isn't furthering your argument. Instead it just makes you look more and more like you have nothing to say and you're channeling Buddha.

Can't any of you people read what is actually posted?

Why should the dealer want your old gear? Does the dealer sell those lines as new? If he doesn't, why should he promote a competitive product even if only as "the guy got rid of this stuff"? How much time should the dealer take hooking and unhooking your used gear to make a sale of a product he doesn't carry? If you don't want it, why should anyone else?

Why should the dealer be tied down to a product he knows nothing about as far as reliability and repair history? If the used items fail after the sale to their new owner, the dealer will be on the line for some of the repair cost. That's fair? While you've walked away? How long should the dealer wait to sell your old gear before he recoups the entire profit on the sale he hopes to make to you? What if it doesn't sell in that amount of time? Should he push your gear over a new product he can sell at a reasonable profit and have a better deal for himself? Should the dealer not buy new stock to replace what you've purchased until he sells your used gear because his profit will be sitting in your used gear and not in his bank account? He'll have to wait on funds to become available from your gear and that could even impact paying things such as rent and utilities. Is this fair?

Do you have any idea why most dealers do not take trades? Do you understand why taking in a trade is considered a favor to the client by most reasonable people?

Do you really not believe you can sell your merchandise for more money by selling it yourself? Do you value the speed and convenience of the deal or the amount of money you will recoup?

If you buy a new car, how much is it worth once you drive it out of the dealer's drive way? How much of its value do you loose in the first week? 10%? 20%? 30%? More?

If you buy something cheap, let's say a $200 Chinese made guitar, and you use it for three months, how much do you suppose it's worth to the retailer on trade? Since they made "80% mark up" according to you, that would mean they buy that same guitar new for how much? But they should take in your used guitar and buy it back from you for more than they would pay for a new guitar from the manufacturer? But they should sell it as a used guitar at what price?

If you buy something very nice, like a $5,000 Martin or Collings and use it for awhile, how much do you suppose it's worth on trade? How much do you suppose you could get if you sold it yourself?

Considering all that, how the hell do you come up with this bullshit?

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Do you believe the dealer is correct to charge full price for new items but also offer 17% of the new price for my trade ins ? that means if i buy $7000 worth of kit today next week it would be worth $1200. Your logic states that is fair, the $5800 i lose is becuase i should support the dealer network ? its not because the products are ridiculously marked up and their real value is only $1200 ??

No, you really are not being too simple. You are once again trying to say "this isn't that so this is that"

Fella, you have the logic of a psychotic squirrel.

Haven't we discussed this before? Why can't you make a logical argument?

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You're being dishonest when you post this ...

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You even state yourself that there is 80% + mark up yet say im making it up !!

And posting personal insults isn't furthering your argument. Instead it just makes you look more and more like you have nothing to say and you're channeling Buddha.

Jan - are you considering Welsh's quote that you included as a personal insult? I just want to clarify. If you are, it seems like you're being very hypocritical and imposing an unfair standard. Your posts are often much more aggressive than Welsh's quote above. I honestly think you should think about this, as you're compromising how people view your logic. (I looked at Welsh's previous posts, but if you were referring to something else he said that is actually an insult, I retract my comment).

That said, aside from Jan's assessment of your honesty, Welsh, I mostly agree with him on this particular point. The dealer is theoretically willing to give you, in exchange for your used gear, what it is worth to him. As Jan pointed out, it is very likely that the gear is worth less to him than it is to someone on the market, in part because of his transaction costs in selling it and providing services. You could argue that the dealer could sell it "as is" and avoid the post-purchase support, but the dealer probably doesn't want to run his business that way -- it is much better for him if he can say he provides services for what he sells. After all, that's what a dealer is for. And even if sold "as is," the dealer still has transactional costs. Like I said before, from what you've said, it sounds like the dealer made a big mistake in treating you the way he did. BUT, the recommendation to sell it yourself was a fair one that would probably result in added value (i.e. more money) for both you and the dealer. His error in the recommendation was probably tact. A good salesperson would have explained exactly why (e.g. "I can give you XX money for your gear, but that's really all I can do because when we sell used gear, we provide services and there are transactional costs, etc. You, on the other hand, can probably sell this for more yourself on the market, and you'll get more money for it than I would, even if you sold it at a lower price.")

Again, as I said above, it still sounds like you were mistreated and that the dealer exercised poor business judgment.

Welsh,

I have to say that this is a huge flip-flop for you with regards to this "cost" issue. Just a couple of months back, you berated me for complaining about exorbitant pricing..which from where I sit, is the very same thing you are complaining about now... personal experience really drives things home doesnt it?

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Jan

We have had this discussion before.

Just because you dont like what im saying dont dismiss my knowledge. I work with audio systems every day and have done for 25 years, these admittedly are industrial in nature but the manufacturing and engineering are no different.

I love hifi and can accept reasonable mark ups, just do not try and justify the rip off levels on a basis of engineering or manufacturing costs. If Crown, QSC, Crest etc can make an extremely high quality 2000 watt amplifier for $800 why do Musical Fidlity charge $20,000 ? the electronics and laws of physics do not change for hifi.

Im not against the manufacturers and again i can appreciate the have to make a living but please !!! lets stop the rip offs and get back to good engineering for a sensible price.

Alan

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... if you were referring to something else he said that is actually an insult, I retract my comment).

I accept your retraction. Welsh's dishonesty is in not being able to read what is posted and repeat that logic into something that is not distorted to serve his own purpose. His dishonesty is conflating things that are not related.

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I have to say that this is a huge flip-flop for you with regards to this "cost" issue. Just a couple of months back, you berated me for complaining about exorbitant pricing..which from where I sit, is the very same thing you are complaining about now... personal experience really drives things home doesnt it?

Exactly. Anybody remember this post?

Actually, I thought your complaint against this dealer was quite justified. But in light of your previous post that I linked, it gives the distinct impression that you're talking out both sides of your mouth here. If you've decided to reconsider your previous position, then I must say I find the "new you" more reasonable.

Alan, I disagree with you about the "cost" to make an amplifier, as opposed to the final retail price. "Making" and amplifier is far more than the cost of the parts. It is paying the shop to manufacture in quantity. It is time and sweat in bringing the product from the "idea" stage to the prototype stage, and then implementing a repeatable design into the manufacturing process. It is committing to a dream (remember, all of this "high end" gear that has evolved through equipment reviews and competition for market share started out as a dream by the individual entrepreneur), going through months (if not years) of monetary deprivation and time spent frequenting shows and beating the sidewalks to find dealers. That simple $500 worth of parts represents countless $$$ in time and, yes, suffering by the inventor/manufacturer.

It is, in my view, impossible to try to identify a quantity of money that goes into the finished product, because of the intangibles. Of course, once you have made it, like a Mark Levinson or a Dan Angostini (Krell -- did I spell it wrong?), economies of scale eventually take over, and perhaps, someday, a $4000 amplifier may indeed "cost" only $500 to build. But it is a long, painful road to that point. Steve McCormack (again, I apologize for the misspell), one of the most talented amplifier designers ever, went bankrupt trying to put in the gruntwork himself and sell quality for reasonable prices.

Concerning the rest of what you say, I agree with you, Alex, and Buddha 100%. The trade-in should not be an opportunity to make a little profit there and a bigger profit selling you the new system. Especially with good speakers. Unlike electronics, you can check for dents and dings, and run the speakers full out to determine their re-sale potential. If everything works, the speakers should be worth at least half-price if they are are in good visual shape.

Buddha's point is well-taken. You were lucky to find out on the first date that this guy is a whore pretending to be a dealer. I have had that unfortunate experience (a guy named Weinhart, who used to run "Ambrosia Audio" in Brentwood/Los Angeles), and, looking back, I would have been much better off in my dealings with this guy if he had made me an offer I could refuse.

Jan's qualifiers are valid. But all of that has to take place up front and early. I suspect that Jan would have told you right away exactly why you would have been better off selling your own gear yourself. If I were the salesman, I would have offered to help you sell the gear, if I couldn't take it myself. And, consignment is always an option, if the dealer has a better chance to sell the stuff at a good price than you do.

Good luck. Eschew the assholes, and enjoy your new system, when you get it.

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6 times the cost of the parts is 80% plus margin as stated in your email.

This is dishonet, it is not factual. The cost of parts has only a small amount to do with the actual cost to the manufacturer. You see the entire difference from cost of parts (which I have to think you have seriously under-estimated despite your personal experience - didn't you say there was a $10 transformer in the amplifier?! In a high end amplifier? Really?!) to the cost to the dealer to the cost to you as one single "mark up". You can either accept that as dishonest or not too bright. Take your pick. Either way, your argument is one that is dishonest because it is filled with errors and, I suspect, a less than honest retelling of the events as they occured. Dealers and salespeople do not suddenly start to "rant" when faced with a calm and sedate customer. There is more to this story than you are telling, of that I am certain.

Let's put that aside for the moment and just look at how you've gone about arguing your case here.

You must either argue the cost of parts as it relates to the retail pricing or you must argue the profit the dealer makes. It is dishonest to suggest only the cost of parts has anything to do with the actual retail price of a product. Do the facts of high end audio need to be laid out in any more explicit detail before you understand why that is so?

That said, you don't control the retail price of the merchandise any more than the dealer does.

It is even more dishonest to suggest only the cost of parts has anything to do with the dealer's profit. You are throwing everything at the wall hoping something sticks and then you won't have to face what the real issue is in this situation.

What is the problem you have seeing that you are not arguing with any logic? If this is how you approached the negotiations with the dealer, with a scattershot approach that included "the manufacturer only has $500 worth of parts in there" or "Crown can build a good amp for $800", you probably got the exact answers you asked for.

I don't know the real circumstances of your encounter, however, I've become less inclined to see your simplistic version of how things went as the honest truth. What most people want when they enter into negotiations of any sort is simple honesty. I don't get the feeling this is what you provided the dealer or to us and I know what it is like to deal with an irrational client who begins telling me how little it should cost to build what I'm selling.

Sorry, you won't find any sympathy here.

I see you've deleted the post where you pretty much called me an arrogant so and so. If you don't like my opinion at all, why do you keep coming back for another dose?

Look, I'm not trying to start a fight here, but you are not playing fair. I'm willing to let this pass and have no hard feelings in the next thread and I hope you will do the same but as I said, you just aren't going to find a sympathetic shoulder here.

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1:............ hifi people are constant fiddlers and are always looking for the next magic upgrade..................
2:What I will not do is get it shoved in my ass at both ends with a dealer saying that i have to pay full price for new stuff but the old stuff is worthless. His new stuff is tommorrows old stuff, why is this concept of value not sinking in ?

Can anyone see the connection between statement 1 & 2?

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[
Exactly. Anybody remember this post?

ja or.. http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...=true#Post51329

Alan, once again I must disagree with you. On a nit-pick. But, since we are all being honest here (chuckle), I must register the miniscule as well as the grandiose.

"I still 100% believe that hi-fi is a luxury purchase made with monies that are not necessary (italics mine) to live."

I beg to differ. When I was finishing my PhD dissertation, 30 or so years ago, my wife divorced me. She was a zoomie, and good riddance, but she didn't like the future prospects of my being a future provider of the requisite $1,000,000 house (now, it would be $5,000,000, but why quibble over the details?). Being a Californian (where the gals, God bless 'em, are always right..) I had to come home to a sound-less living room and a car-less garage. She took my stereo (the bitch!). And my car (of minor importance -- hell, I am an ex-grunt, used to 50-mile forced marches). After the smoke cleared, I received a tax-refund of $750 (Shhhh, you bastards -- even after 30 years, if she finds out I snarked her out of $400, she'll be on me like a fucking banshee). I was living on piss and punk, literally, trying to reclaim my life, finish my dissertation, and remain reasonably sane. Still, I came home to a silent house. No music. Fuck the rations, NO FUCKING MUSIC!!!!

Did I go out and buy a nice steak? No. Did I hit High-Times Liquor for a better brand of knockout juice? No.

Did I head for the nearest audio dealer? You bet your sweet ass, I did!!! Life without music is death. I picked up a pair of Rectilinear 3's, a Dynaco preamp/power-amp combo, a Dual/Shure combo, and some zip-cord to strap it all in. I had 23 bucks left over for some road kill and rot gut.

The best night of my life. Music, at last! Fuck the bitch, and fuck the judge. I gots me some tunes, after 3 months of silence!

Alan, a "hi-fi system" is not a "luxury." Music is life. And it has to sound right in your cave. A "hi-fi" system is a basic staple. Look. If you are starving, there are options -- soup kitchens, garbage cans, and fries dribbled onto the asphalt in the parking lot at Mickey D's.

But MUSIC??? Go without MUSIC???

You gotta be shittin' me....

Alan, here's one of the first lessons any salesperson receives; don't ever ask a question you don't already know the answer to.

Our local beloved used Hi Fi and repair shop buys at 60% of what their expected sale price would be.

As much as I like supporting local shops, that salesman would have really ticked me off.

So here's what I would do (and HAVE done in the past). After telling the sales guy where he can shove his products, I'd get the best deal I could, whether it's online or from another local dealer, and then I'd send the bozo an e-mail, letting him know exactly what I paid for the kit.

I would also state that it's people like him who drive away customers who are simply looking to get the best bang for their money. In these tough times, the customer has as much right to get the best value for his cash as the dealer has to make a profit. The bottom line is to reach a price that is acceptable to both.

Out of principal, I refuse to pay list price for anything. The manufacturer can set a value for an item, but negotiation between a vendor and purchaser ultimately sets the price. Refusing to budge from list prices is price fixing and illegal (in Canada).

Try calling a manufacturer and telling the owner/manager that you are planning on reporting their practice of establishing fixed retail prices to the government. Trust me....you will have a very interesting conversation!!

R

While I don't disagree with your sentiment, RobertaZ, a dealer deciding to refuse to sell something below list is not price fixing anywhere in the world. Maybe you meant something else?

Generally speaking, price-fixing would NOT occur if an individual dealer decides not to sell below MSRP. Price fixing would occur if either the manufacturer forced all dealers not to sell below MSRP (illegal), or if all the dealers conspired to not sell below the list price (that would be a criminal conspiracy - and illegal).

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Jan You are correct in that i should not come back for another dose. You win.
Im going to retire from this area and stick to the music section where things are not so confrontational.
Alan

Hey Alan, once JV starts spewing the venom and insults, there is no point in reading or paying attention to his posts. Ignore those, and read just constructive posts. (most good posts tend to be short!) Don't get chased out of forum areas, stay in this one or any ones you want to.

How nice of you to make an appearance just to insult me.

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Generally speaking, price-fixing would NOT occur if an individual dealer decides not to sell below MSRP. Price fixing would occur if either the manufacturer forced all dealers not to sell below MSRP (illegal), or if all the dealers conspired to not sell below the list price (that would be a criminal conspiracy - and illegal).

Forcing all dealers to sell at/above MSRP is not necessarily illegal anymore under U.S. federal law(i.e. it isn't per se illegal). It was per se illegal before the Supreme Court's 2007 decision Leegin. It might be prohibited, but might not be. Depends on the circumstance.

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How nice of you to make an appearance just to insult me.

Wasn't talking to you, I was giving advice to the other guy. It's not all about you, JV, even though you think it is.
Glad to see you are able to write a short post, tho.

I'm sorry to see you can't write a post that doesn't include an insult.

How about giving it a break? You have nothing to say in this thread that relates to the thread. You came with one intent in mind. Like a child, you've put some dirt where it doesn't belong thinking it is humorous. You've taken a dump in this thread. Isn't that enough for you? Are you that f'ing obssessed with another forum member that you have no control of yourself?