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13) Blackness in between instruments?
14) Balance between frequenzy ranges? (Bass - mid - treble)

I haven't seen Geoff respond, so in case he doesn't, I'll give you my own understanding of that.

13) This is kind of like the noise floor lowering. You hear a darker background, and since instruments cover that, you obviously don't hear the same effect where there is an instrument (in the sound picture). (I actually achieved an improvement of this very characteristic today, by moving one of my ART resonators a couple of feet).

14) I believe this would have to refer to coherence, specifically, the equality (of volume) between the 3 segments of the frequency range. Sometimes a speaker might be too bassy, for example.

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Even among different manufacturers of acoustic treatments, you can hear differences in different absorptive panels or diffusers, when you seriously compare their influence on your sound.

Very true.

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But I think in being swept by the improvements, we might tend to not notice the detriments that came along with that. But the more objects introduced into the room which carry these detriments, the greater the detriment.

I agree with this as well. There is almost always something else going on. It's interesting that you find that there is a point when the qualitatively "smaller" detriments became such an issue that they outweighed the improvements.

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The ARTs enhance harmonic overtones. I describe the result as "refinement". So when I speak of a "refinement" in the sound, I am speaking of that clarinet sounding more like what it really is. <snip of other good stuff>

Great description! I understand what you are describing.

Thanks!

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. . . it "appears" to work outside the room it's in.

While this sounds nutty on its face, I can accept that there can be some interplay.

My studio is down a good length of hall from my main listening room (which is large, 32' ceiling, roughly 1,000 sq. feet of floor space, no parallel walls.) I recently installed cherry floors in the studio. Thus the room was entirely empty.

The empty room affected the sound in my main room. Adding a Karastan rug and acoustic panels (conventional stuff all) changed the sound yet again.

Hardly night and day - but noticeable.

Sound is cool stuff.

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Listen asshole, I was responding to another member, not you. I have been avoiding your continued unprovoked trolling of me in this thread. And I was responding on the topic of the thread. While all you are doing is creating disturbances left and right, initiating flame wars, and impeding our discussion on audio. It isn't even "advertising" that you're concerned with. You are clearly targeting anyone here expressing any neutral or positive sentiment toward the Synergistic Research company; calling everyone who does a "shill". Proof of that, is that you had no problem with rgibran posting a picture of the MKU footers. Only with me posting a picture of the Synergistic footers in response.

As Jan Vigne showed, you have been shilling elsewhere on the internet against Synergistic, for at least a year and a half now, under numerous aliases. That's a pretty sick thing to do, dude. And if you're this guy Ethan he talks about, then that explains it all, doesn't it? With nearly 180 posts attacking synergistic here, I suspected you must be a competitor. I am more convinced of that than ever now. Especially after I read some of your trolling garbage on that Audiojunkies thread. It shows you had an agenda to attack Synergistic long before any talk of "measurements". Long before you came to this forum. You sat there attacking the company, and everyone who posted a neutral or positive opinion, for about 18 months. The only thing I don't get, is why have you been given free reign to do the same thing here for another 7? You clearly have nothing to contribute to this forum except personal attacks. Either against other members or against synergistic.

Nothing to say, I just thought it needed to be repeated.

Your breadcrumbs are giving you away, D'ethan. "Been around awhile" slamming Ted and Synergistics, eh?

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Be mature, respectful, thoughtful. You know: Don't be an asshole.

Golllleeeeee!, D'ethan, you break all four rules all the time. Now, if you'd just be so kind as to place your industry affiliation at the bottom of your posts we can be done with this.

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Golllleeeeee!, D'ethan, you break all four rules all the time. Now, if you'd just be so kind as to place your industry affiliation at the bottom of your posts we can be done with this.

As I've said before, I have no good reason to believe that DavidL is Ethan Winer. Cool it, Jan.

Related: I do not believe that EricArjes is Michigan J Frog.

However, if/when we discover that users are posting under multiple aliases, we will call out those users, and take the appropriate action, which may mean suspending account access.

Whatever you say, Stephen. Just to be clear though, I do believe in alternative devices and in evil sockpuppets.

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I agree with this as well. There is almost always something else going on. It's interesting that you find that there is a point when the qualitatively "smaller" detriments became such an issue that they outweighed the improvements.

There's a reason for that. Although those 'detriments' may be finer points on the music, they happen to have been the more significant components of the reproduction, to me. To give you an idea of what I mean, I care less about sound stage size, imaging, frequency anomalies, than I care about the definition of timbre on that clarinet (ie. harmonics). Because I know that the more that is correct, the more the notes being played (on any instrument) will resonate with me, emotionally. At that point, I forget the superficialities.

Speaking in general, I find that for many people (myself included), many tweaks sound nutty, when you don't understand them, and are trying to understand them based on your limited knowledge of them. The more I learn about the ARTs, the less the idea sounds nutty. When I tried to think about why it might extend beyond room borders, well the resonators are activated by air currents (and of course sound waves that travel through the air). And air currents are not limited to a particular room. Which would explain why I found the sound did not seem as good when I shut the door to the room that contained the resonators.

I so agree, that sound is cool stuff. I have a lot of fun in audio, finding out different things about how sound can change. Never more so than with these things. In preparing my review for the ARTs, came across a remarkable change today, occurring from a displacement of about 2 feet. I know that I could never create that kind of change by displacing any of the traditional treatments I previously had up. Not by any degree of movement. Comparing the two types of treatment is really apples and oranges, if you ask me.

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Lets keep the advertising to a minimum on the forums "Ted" Jr

Listen asshole, I was responding to another member, not you. I have been avoiding your continued unprovoked trolling of me in this thread. And I was responding on the topic of the thread. While all you are doing is creating disturbances left and right, initiating flame wars, and impeding our discussion on audio. It isn't even "advertising" that you're concerned with. You are clearly targeting anyone here expressing any neutral or positive sentiment toward the Synergistic Research company; calling everyone who does a "shill". Proof of that, is that you had no problem with rgibran posting a picture of the MKU footers. Only with me posting a picture of the Synergistic footers in response.

As Jan Vigne showed, you have been shilling elsewhere on the internet against Synergistic, for at least a year and a half now, under numerous aliases. That's a pretty sick thing to do, dude. And if you're this guy Ethan he talks about, then that explains it all, doesn't it? With nearly 180 posts attacking synergistic here, I suspected you must be a competitor. I am more convinced of that than ever now. Especially after I read some of your trolling garbage on that Audiojunkies thread. It shows you had an agenda to attack Synergistic long before any talk of "measurements". Long before you came to this forum. You sat there attacking the company, and everyone who posted a neutral or positive opinion, for about 18 months. The only thing I don't get, is why have you been given free reign to do the same thing here for another 7? You clearly have nothing to contribute to this forum except personal attacks. Either against other members or against synergistic.

Pretty strong language from a shill of Ted's Anytime some one says something you don't like you go off on a blah blah blah blah rant. why would YOU care unless you are associated with Ted's company? Can't you just enjoy all the "benifits' that Ted's magic bowls brings to you and be confident in them? I still think you protest wayyyyyyyyyy too much about me to NOT be in their employment So maye YOU were Aslan on Audio Junkies instead

The only thing as far as a review goes that you have stated are the obvious subjective "oh I heard this and this so I must be telling the truth!" BS.
Still awaiting the third party tests, acoustic and DBT or it's all gonna be one big waste of time......sort of like reading your posts "Eric"

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Golllleeeeee!, D'ethan, you break all four rules all the time. Now, if you'd just be so kind as to place your industry affiliation at the bottom of your posts we can be done with this.

As I've said before, I have no good reason to believe that DavidL is Ethan Winer. Cool it, Jan.

Related: I do not believe that EricArjes is Michigan J Frog.

However, if/when we discover that users are posting under multiple aliases, we will call out those users, and take the appropriate action, which may mean suspending account access.

IP addresses is a good thing, as they can be checked

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IP addresses is a good thing, as they can be checked

Indeed they can and I endorse checking them

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Golllleeeeee!, D'ethan, you break all four rules all the time. Now, if you'd just be so kind as to place your industry affiliation at the bottom of your posts we can be done with this.

As I've said before, I have no good reason to believe that DavidL is Ethan Winer. Cool it, Jan.

Related: I do not believe that EricArjes is Michigan J Frog.

However, if/when we discover that users are posting under multiple aliases, we will call out those users, and take the appropriate action, which may mean suspending account access.

IP addresses is a good thing, as they can be checked

If subjective audio dbt testing is involved I would suggest, from page 12, that the following variables be accounted for, solutions mentioned.

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Factors such as excessive bass, echoes, habituation to stimuli, cochlea fatigue, memory problems resulting from the time interval between initially hearing the reference until the ABs during testing were completed, and any other variables. All slew towards no sonic difference.

I would like to add spl levels, actual time interval from hearing reference to conclusion of a set of ABs etc be listed, and that instead of simply the total responses be given, that individual AB results per AB also be given. Also the collective total per AB, so we can see how each AB was responded too during the test, individually and collectively. One can gather critical information to see if variables have been acounted for.

Cheers.

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Although those 'detriments' may be finer points on the music, they happen to have been the more significant components of the reproduction, to me. To give you an idea of what I mean, I care less about sound stage size, imaging, frequency anomalies, than I care about the definition of timbre on that clarinet (ie. harmonics). Because I know that the more that is correct, the more the notes being played (on any instrument) will resonate with me, emotionally. At that point, I forget the superficialities.

YES!

I couldn't agree with you more. I like those other things. In fact I like them a lot. But timbre and expression is where the music is. I think that microdynamics (in all frequencies) are incredibly important as they directly impact timbre, as well as subtle expression.

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Speaking in general, I find that for many people (myself included), many tweaks sound nutty, when you don't understand them, and are trying to understand them based on your limited knowledge of them. The more I learn about the ARTs, the less the idea sounds nutty.

Your review contains great descriptors of what you believe is going on. Great stuff and really fun to contemplate.

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I so agree, that sound is cool stuff. I have a lot of fun in audio, finding out different things about how sound can change.

Again: YES!

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Never more so than with these things. In preparing my review for the ARTs, came across a remarkable change today, occurring from a displacement of about 2 feet. I know that I could never create that kind of change by displacing any of the traditional treatments I previously had up. Not by any degree of movement. Comparing the two types of treatment is really apples and oranges, if you ask me.

Fascinating.

I have on occasion experienced a pronounced change by adding a single wide band bass panel directly behind the listener (two or three feet away) and fine tuning it by moving it vertically. This is always audible and sometimes a tremendous improvement.

This surprised me when I first came across this (by accident when I walked behind a visitor with a large panel while she was listening). It is a much greater difference than placing a panels on the first reflection points, at least in the rooms I have played with. Not to say that this is a similar affect, but I have an appreciation of the type of change your are referencing.

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I do believe in . . . evil sockpuppets.

And then there are those dreadful teddy bears. <shudder>

It's good their paws are so big they can't type anything other than sdklrtjifgbnxcqwkltyio gh,.

So you do have "fears". We thought so.

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So you do have "fears". We thought so.

Only Teddy Bears named "Chuckie."

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I have on occasion experienced a pronounced change by adding a single wide band bass panel directly behind the listener (two or three feet away) and fine tuning it by moving it vertically. This is always audible and sometimes a tremendous improvement.

Try taking a double fold LP cover and placing it behind your head. Not extremely close but close enough to minimize rear of the room sound. If the sound improves, you need to do something about the back area. If you prefer to stick with conventional ideas, I prefer diffusion in the rear of the room.

I thought that end of the room was the "hard" one. I always learned to "soften" the end with the speakers...!?!

Depends on your taste and your system, Freako. Live end/dead end has been debated as to which is best for home audio. I happen to use dipole speaker systems so a dead front wall doesn't work very well for my system. None the less, no matter whether you're using dipoles or monopoles, I've never much cared for absorption behind me.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&...stics&type=

The story thus far for those coming in late

The story so far for David

Ouch!

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Try taking a double fold LP cover and placing it behind your head. Not extremely close but close enough to minimize rear of the room sound.

Interesting thought - but wouldn't the sound of the speakers reflect off of the hard LP cover, messing up the sound as well?

And yes, rear diffusion can be very nice.

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Try taking a double fold LP cover and placing it behind your head. Not extremely close but close enough to minimize rear of the room sound.

Interesting thought - but wouldn't the sound of the speakers reflect off of the hard LP cover, messing up the sound as well?

And yes, rear diffusion can be very nice.

The reflections near the head don't have enough delay to "mess up the sound" as you say. It's when the reflected wave delay is longer, say from the side wall or front wall, that they interfere with the time coherence of the primary signal. Ever see a bat-eared fox?

Cute, plus they have extremely great hearing

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The reflections near the head don't have enough delay to "mess up the sound" as you say.

HRTF's?

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It's when the reflected wave delay is longer, say from the side wall or front wall, that they interfere with the time coherence of the primary signal. Ever see a bat-eared fox?

Of course, it is how the ears interfere with the sound that means the fox has good directional hearing.

And an LP cover is a lot bigger than our Pinna.

Ergo, your comment is inappropriate and misleading, as well as begging the idea of what "messes up" might be.

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... wouldn't the sound of the speakers reflect off of the hard LP cover ...

To begin with, this is nothing more than a quick, convenient and easy check point for room acoustics, it is not meant to be a permanent solution to anything.

The small amount that encounters the LP cover will be reflected, yes. That would still be opposed to the large amount that encounters the rear and side walls. How much information will actually pass around the LP covers and not be seriously affected? I'm not suggesting you shut off all rear of the room sound.

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Not extremely close but close enough to minimize rear of the room sound.

If it makes you happy, use a large pillow instead. The point is simply to "minimize" the rear of the room sound. You get to choose whatever makes you happy. But a pillow will give a different result, will it not? You probably won't be happy with all the rear reflections suppressed. Try both the pillow and LP cover and determine which is preferrable.

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... messing up the sound as well?

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If the sound improves, you need to do something about the back area.

I post it, Elk, it's up to you to actually read it. Try it, this is way cheaper than your reason for not trying the ART devices.

Just show me one post you've made that isn't meant to be insulting to someone or some company. Just one.

SM, he is a troll.

Can't see the pic...

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Just show me one post you've made that isn't meant to be insulting to someone or some company. Just one.

SM, he is a troll.

Right back at ya goober Try looking up all my posts and find them yourself or is that too much effort? The reason you perceive me as being a troll is just me defending myself from troll posts. Like Stephen suggested, if you don't like me then use the IGNORE feature.

I do ignore you, none the less, you're confusing me the vast number of people who don't like you. Though SM did tell me once to ignore someone who sounds a lot like you ...

You're a troll and you continue to prove it.

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Just show me one post you've made that isn't meant to be insulting to someone or some company. Just one.

SM, he is a troll.

Jan is right. Smelly Old Cat manages to spray every thread with his narrow, redundant agenda despite the topic at hand. The forum is his litterbox. The web is filled with these types because they have a need act out negatively without consequences. If they behaved thusly outside of this virtual world they would get their asses kicked forthwith. They are the ultimate narcissistic cowards. But I mean that in a GOOD way, Smelly Old Cat.

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Just show me one post you've made that isn't meant to be insulting to someone or some company. Just one.

SM, he is a troll.

Jan is right. Smelly Old Cat manages to spray every thread with his narrow, redundant agenda despite the topic at hand. The forum is his litterbox. The web is filled with these types because they have a need act out negatively without consequences. If they behaved thusly outside of this virtual world they would get their asses kicked forthwith. They are the ultimate narcissistic cowards. But I mean that in a GOOD way, Smelly Old Cat.

Better watch it rvance, "ass kicking" sounds like a threat I guess an "ass kicking" online wouldn't amount to much coming from you though or in real life so *yawn*

Okay here's the topic at hand........when's the silly little magic bowls getting tested? Acoustic measurements and DBT or it's all BS Will my prediction from last year hold true? "No measureable difference BUT there's some things we just can't measure" excuse? Stay tuned for the exciting conclusion coming..........a few months from now.....maybe........perhaps........don't hold your breath.

*Sound of crickets chirping*

Ahhh yes that about sums up the "tests"
Please feel free to close this thread and start something "relevant" Looks like "Eric" ran away like his cohort Ted.

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*Sound of crickets chirping*

Ahhh yes that about sums up the "tests"
Please feel free to close this thread and start something "relevant" Looks like "Eric" ran away like his cohort Ted.

Stephen:

Please note that this is another unprovoked and unwarranted personal attack against me by David L., after you said "end it now", under threat of banishment. Apparently the ones I mentioned where he posted an attack 3 minutes after your directive, and then 8 minutes after, doesn't count. Does this count? If so, please moderate. Otherwise, if it's okay by you for this person to continue to provoke and attack my character like this, then can you please make it clear for us what you mean by "end it now"?

Because I'm really not getting why this individual is able to get away with threadcrapping all over audio threads, posting over 200 negative attacks against Stereophile's members and manufacturers, and completely flaunting the only rules I've seen posted so far: "Don't be an asshole" and "End it now". I have not even posted anything since his last attacks against me, because it isn't much fun posting here with him harassing me all the time. Even less so when I get threatened with banishment if I dare return some of his fire, while he remains bulletproof.

Yet, unbelievably, despite your warning, I'm still receiving attacks from him for simply not posting anything. Others are receiving their share of his negative assaults since then as well. So it looks like I will receive character attacks from him no matter what I post, or even whether I post. I've tried ignoring his abusive trolling before, but he even followed me into my own threads solely to post such attacks against me and derail the thread. It is not fair to expect one member to behave but not another. It seems that not only is he doing his best to try to get other members banned, but also to destroy threads, and productive discussion therein. I know of no other audio forum that would tolerate such obvious and incessant trolling.

"He's very smart or very dumb."

Ahhhhhh yes just more cricket chirping and nothing to do with the upcoming "tests" I see. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

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Stephen:

Please note that this is another unprovoked and unwarranted personal attack against me by David L., after you said "end it now", under threat of banishment.

Pointing out a repeated failure to perform on your part is not a "personal attack", and such allegations are themselves a classic "victimization" type of propaganda.

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Pointing out a repeated failure to perform on your part is not a "personal attack", and such allegations are themselves a classic "victimization" type of propaganda.

How very "Republican" of you, Limbaugh-ish to be exact.

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Pointing out a repeated failure to perform on your part is not a "personal attack", and such allegations are themselves a classic "victimization" type of propaganda.

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. You don't seem to like that when people do that to you, so don't do that to others. There have been no "repeated failures to perform on my part", so I don't know what you're going on about now. Quoted below is what your friend David wrote, that my post is responding to. There are 2 personal attacks against me in this sentence. Wherever do you see "repeated failures to perform" in this attack, pray tell?:

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Please feel free to close this thread and start something "relevant" Looks like "Eric" ran away like his cohort Ted.

This was posted after the moderator's directive to "end it now". 3 minutes after telling the mod "no problem" to his directive, David L posted a cartoon insulting me in my Sugarcubes thread. 8 minutes afterward, he targeted another troll provocation against me, following my post in the "Re: Something for your car?" thread. Even using my own personal photograph to attack me with. Where do you even see anything about audio in these posts of his I referred to? You obviously have shown you can not be trusted to forward an objective opinion regarding your friend David L. So please refrain in the future from commenting if you don't know, care about or understand the facts of a particular matter.

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Pointing out a repeated failure to perform on your part is not a "personal attack", and such allegations are themselves a classic "victimization" type of propaganda.

I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.

I didn't. You're playing the victim for all the sympathy you can muster here.

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Please feel free to close this thread and start something "relevant" Looks like "Eric" ran away like his cohort Ted.

This was posted after the moderator's directive to "end it now". 3 minutes after telling the mod "no problem" to his directive,

Well, where are the tests and measurements?

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Well, where are the tests and measurements?

Several months in the future is my best guess..........oh you meant REAL tests and measurements.....hmmmmm........we may not live long enough for those to see the light of day
j_j have you ever heard so much whining? I thought my truck's automatic transmission was low on fluid or something

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Well, where are the tests and measurements?

j_j have you ever heard so much whining?

Righty-oh.

I can say that I haven't ever heard such whining....you are to be commended for your dedication.

One of the few times I agree with B/Beck, your persistent whining, DL, is nothing short of troll-like. "Eric" has nothing to do with getting the measurements done, "D'ethan", and you agreed to "end it now", remember? Yet you continue to snark. I suppose it would be ridiculous to expect you to live up to your agreements now. And look everyone, "D'ethan" is buddying up with "D'jj" who is otherwise totally lost in this thread and doesn't realize the answer to "where are the measurements" has already been provided.

I knew there was a finger involved here somewhere.

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I knew there was a finger involved here somewhere.

It's probably the one stuck up your ass