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michael green
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Get Tuned @ the 2015 Vegas CES

Well, it's time!

The 2015 CES is about to start in my town Las Vegas NV Jan 6-9. Hope all of you visting have a fantastic time!

Coop will be covering the showrooms with the "Get Tuned" Girls.

Looking forward to seeing coverage from the other forums, here's our coverage thread http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas

thanks for stopping by

michael green, Coop and the Girls
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Allen Fant
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Happy New Year! MG.

Happy New Year! MG.
I will check out your coverage of CES 2015.

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Happy New Year!

Happy New Year Allen

Great, see you on TuneLand.

What some call a trade show, we call a trade party.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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nothing like being home

A quote from the pages of TuneLand's show report

"You know how you have your neighborhood grocery store a few blooks away from your house, well imagine having the worlds largest Electronic Trade Show that close to you. Today I hit my odometer for grins, 2.6 miles to the front door of the CC.

This year feels more set in a well established place. The hi-tech companies have their game plans and seem to be past the what if's in the direction the present and future holds. From our view, on one side you see more advanced technologies than ever, and on the other a saying goodbye of the old.

For us it's interesting to see the high end audio part attempt to head closer to the mainstream, with the mainstream itself leading the way. The roles have reversed and instead of the high end being the cutting edge in R&D, it is incorporating what the mainstream developes into a high end version. Not all but most.

Walking from the main floors to the high end audio areas is educational...."

read more http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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fantastic!

We are having a great time. The show is done for today and my rooms are full of evening listeners. Absolutely for sure we are going to need to do something bigger next year. Thanks Ladies and thanks Coop for all the hard work.

I also feel like we have been getting fantastic feedback on the future of High End Audio and that's pretty cool.

A great first day! We will have lots to talk about in the months to come. Had some good meetings and I'm especially looking forward to hanging out with our Qualcomm friends.

day 2 coming up

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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WOW, what a surprise!

Michael, you just look changed from your "official" photo! I get that time does not spare any of us.

P.S. And I thought I'm the only one whose beard is white...

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LOL

Hi Costin

That's not me, that's Harold Cooper (MGA Manager) much better looking than me. He gets to have all the fun. I'm still a long haired hippy! We thought we would give a respectable face to MGA.

michael green
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looks like

looks like the industry is having fun this CES

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Day 2

Day2 was crazy madness for me on the main floor, but had some good meetings in the areas of audio that I wanted.

My main focus was on simplicity, the front end, and how does High End fit in with the rest of the industry. One note I might make is for myself there are two shows that I look at as one, the CES and the NAMM (the pro and recording version of the CES).

The main floor was packed and bigger than last year. There is a big sense of community and the sharing of ideas. Where 20 years ago I would have and did consider the CES floor as being in some ways "the cheap stuff" this is no longer the case. The main floor is a super hi-tech palace of all things electronic. In the past I felt like I was talking to Radio Shack, now I feel like I'm talking to informed well trained engineers who are very up and involved in the now and future. Kinda funny when I think about how my perception years ago has been reversed in many ways. At one time I looked at expensive as mark of excellence, but the last 3 years of the CES has taught me something different. Innovation starts with the guys in the labs of these mega companies and spreads to the different parts of the economy scales.

What I'm learning makes me very happy because it's in-line with my belief in the entry level. This changes...

read more http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278p15-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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How do you tune the blonde?

Seen Vince in one of the photos? His Model Ones were my favs for a few years...

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the show

Yep Vince was there and I have a pic of his mini setup somewhere that I wanted to post. I set aside a bunch of photos now it's a matter of finding them.

People went pretty nuts over the girls, except for maybe 3 snob rooms. We're having a great time and are looking forward to doing more shows where we can spread some smiles around. We got a great response from people who took more pictures of them and the girls than we took ourselves.

The pictures I haven't posted much of are the girls when they hit the main floor. I think they livened up the place :)

The YouTube videos will be really fun too, when they come out. The first one is a little naughty and with your blonde.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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more photos & writting coming soon

Hi Guys

Hope there have been some good reports coming in from the CES. I'll get up more photos and some of our thoughts soon. We were swamped yesterday and today so everything had to go on hold as far as working on puting up more info.

thanks for checking out our report :)

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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responses and comments

For the last year I have been talking about change in our hobby. Some may look at change as good and of course some bad, but one thing is for sure "change is happening".

This CES we interviewed a few of the designers to get their take on the state of High End Audio and audio itself. One thing that was generally agreed upon is, the high end part of this hobby is going through a rethinking.

these are direct Q&A's added to our own thoughts

How was attendance?

"numbers were extremely low"

our thoughts

With the CES breaking attendance records of over 160,000 the amount of people making their way to the High End Audio area was very small as compared to High End Audio's prime show days.

asking the question on the main floor, have you visited the high end audio area?

"are they still showing at the Venetian"

asking one of the high end exibitors, how do you feel about the low numbers visiting?

"I think the attendance is a reflection of the general interest in what high end industry is doing, every year is less"

and another one which was pretty forcefully stated

"high end is trying to sell expensive rip offs of mass market technology that in many cases sound worse than what is on offer at 100th of the price from Sony, Pioneer or whoever, so I am not surprised that the attendance is getting lower and lower year on year, we see the same around the world"

while talking about the state of high end

"So it is hardly surprising to see that in a sign of desperation high end companies bring out $ 1,000.00 devices and systems, all made China of course and based on some standard package that costs $ 300.00 from everyone else apart from the nice box, which in a perverse way is exactly what the high end industry has been doing with digital amplifiers and all sorts of other products at higher prices as well, so perhaps the logic is consistent after all"

Another one, Where do you feel high end is?

"Ask yourself, what exactly is Ultra High End? What does it stand for apart from idiotically high prices without much real substance in terms of cost or performance to back up the price, except perhaps for the brand name and some flowery words on expensive brochures about how much closer to musical Nirvana a purchase of these will take you?"

In which way does the Ultra go beyond the normal High End?

"Apart from the price probably no far at all."

I want to point out that these comments were made from high end audio designers who are at the top of the High End food chain, and there were many more, but we felt the point with these is clearly made. read more http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278p30-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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That's what they always say
michael green wrote:

For the last year I have been talking about change in our hobby. Some may look at change as good and of course some bad, but one thing is for sure "change is happening".

This CES we interviewed a few of the designers to get their take on the state of High End Audio and audio itself. One thing that was generally agreed upon is, the high end part of this hobby is going through a rethinking.

these are direct Q&A's added to our own thoughts

How was attendance?

"numbers were extremely low"

our thoughts

With the CES breaking attendance records of over 160,000 the amount of people making their way to the High End Audio area was very small as compared to High End Audio's prime show days.

asking the question on the main floor, have you visited the high end audio area?

"are they still showing at the Venetian"

asking one of the high end exibitors, how do you feel about the low numbers visiting?

"I think the attendance is a reflection of the general interest in what high end industry is doing, every year is less"

and another one which was pretty forcefully stated

"high end is trying to sell expensive rip offs of mass market technology that in many cases sound worse than what is on offer at 100th of the price from Sony, Pioneer or whoever, so I am not surprised that the attendance is getting lower and lower year on year, we see the same around the world"

while talking about the state of high end

"So it is hardly surprising to see that in a sign of desperation high end companies bring out $ 1,000.00 devices and systems, all made China of course and based on some standard package that costs $ 300.00 from everyone else apart from the nice box, which in a perverse way is exactly what the high end industry has been doing with digital amplifiers and all sorts of other products at higher prices as well, so perhaps the logic is consistent after all"

Another one, Where do you feel high end is?

"Ask yourself, what exactly is Ultra High End? What does it stand for apart from idiotically high prices without much real substance in terms of cost or performance to back up the price, except perhaps for the brand name and some flowery words on expensive brochures about how much closer to musical Nirvana a purchase of these will take you?"

In which way does the Ultra go beyond the normal High End?

"Apart from the price probably no far at all."

I want to point out that these comments were made from high end audio designers who are at the top of the High End food chain, and there were many more, but we felt the point with these is clearly made. read more http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278p30-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

>>>>>>That's pretty much what they were saying every year I went to CES since 1997. All this handwringing and angst about the demise of High End Audio is usually performed best by folks who are not in High End Audio. See the irony? The biggest High End Audio store in the DC metro area, Exclaiber, closed its doors about 30 years ago.

When the going gets tough the tough get going, into Pro Audio. Or Home Theater.

"By his fruit shall ye know him."

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't exist.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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by his fruit

Not quite sure what planet someone is from if they haven't seen technology move forward in 18 years geoff.

Also don't know why you are even here, being an internet troll, but the future for the audiophile is brighter than it has ever been.

Not only can the audiophile go back in time and have excellent Vinyl and Tape systems if we wish, but we can also take advantage of the computer age. I see this as a plus Plus.

My outlook on this is I believe the audiophile deserves being able to have an affordable hobby that performs at the same levels as the ultra high end and it seems like some of the ultra high end audio designers agree with me.

There are some interesting things to note about this particular show. One is that in over half of the High End Audio showrooms, laptops were running the systems. Another 40% were running with CD, and less than 10% running with Turntables (my numbers might be somewhat off but that's what we took in). There were zero Tape based systems in the high end. This isn't me painting a picture of High End Audio, this is High End Audio painting a picture of themselves for better or worse.

There were more smaller systems than in the past, and people were talking about the movement toward small and simple. There were more bookshelf speakers on display this year over the last 5 or so years. This CES it was not just about the flagships of the industry, and as I'm not sure what the other reports put their focus on, but from our point of view you could see the shift in the marketplace changing. One thing that I noticed was among the people (the few that were there) who were listening, they were not fooled by the huge price-tags. Flip back to ten years ago the listeners coming in would judge based on the dollars first and the sound second. That was not the sense at this CES at all from what we saw. You could feel in the air that people wanted medium to lower priced setups that sounded great instead of static displaying. Again I don't know what was told to the press, but anyone with their eyes on the ball could see that there is a divide happening, and the higher priced products were no longer winner at this divide. It was like the buyer (stores) has done enough homework on their clients and pictured maybe 2% would buy at the top, but the rest want value. This I think is perfect for the Creeks, Rotels, Parasounds, Music halls and other affordable more simple designs to come on strong in the coming years.

The integrated/receiver world is about to explode in the marketplace. And not these huge beast, but streamline and simple.

Had an interesting meeting with the digital guys "you do know that digital products are really analog". "Digital is a language not a circuit". Everything about digital as far as any of the parts working is analog. The word Digital has been mis-used and as a result mis-understood for many years. There is no such thing as a digital part. All parts are analog :of, relating to, or being a mechanism in which data is represented by continuously variable physical quantities. It isn't the digital language that is producing audio playback issues, but the playback components themselves.

This was the most meaningful meeting I could have had as my findings over this last several years has given me the same results. The challenge is not the language but the systems playing the language, and it's maybe the hardest thing that High End Audio faces. The technologies in playback need to rise to the level of the language. This was shared with me from both high end and mass camps. Those who are using old school thinking with the language as far as playback have not made better systems than the basic playbacks and most times worse.

As a side note this was demo-ed for me 2, maybe 3 now, years ago in San Diego. The demo left the techs speechless. I'll save this for another time cause the stuck will throw a fit over the conclusions.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Digital is a soulless medium

Michael wrote,

"There are some interesting things to note about this particular show. One is that in over half of the High End Audio showrooms, laptops were running the systems. Another 40% were running with CD, and less than 10% running with Turntables (my numbers might be somewhat off but that's what we took in). There were zero Tape based systems in the high end. This isn't me painting a picture of High End Audio, this is High End Audio painting a picture of themselves for better or worse."

I suspect you hit the nail on the head when you said, for better or worse. Too bad noone is showing with tape based systems. And folks wonder why attendance is down. Digital has never gotten the soul of the music right. Not to mention the treble. Tape, on the other hand, does. Digital is good if you're a dead person in a casket six feet under. They can pipe digital music too you for eternity. Lol. Computers are good for data, for music not so good. But for all you digital and technology lovers, now you really can take it with you.

http://www.catacombosoundsystem.com

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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what is digital geoff?

Geoff when you say Digital, what are you speaking of specifically?

michael green
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What's digital?
michael green wrote:

Geoff when you say Digital, what are you speaking of specifically?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Fair enough. When I speak of digital, as in digital sucks or digital has no soul, I'm referring to CDs played on CD players primarily but also CDs ripped to hard drives and music downloads. Any time digital processing is employed such as digitally mastered LPs and digitally remastered cassettes. For CDs, AAD is less objectionable than ADD which is less objectionable than DDD.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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so it's not digital itself

Geoff you've mention recording and playback systems but not digital itself. What's wrong with digital itself?

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What's wrong with digital?
michael green wrote:

Geoff you've mention recording and playback systems but not digital itself. What's wrong with digital itself?

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

 photo photo_15_zpsi3y3s6qv.jpg

>>>>>>What's wrong with digital is kind of a funny question since I've spent the past six months primarily talking about the problems with digital. You would have had to be sound asleep for most of the time to have missed my claims that CDs sound thin, wiry, metallic, hard, compressed, rolled off and unnatural in the treble, threadbare, dull and boring, dark, homogenized, congealed, veiled, like paper mâché, tizzy, two dimensional, tinny, dead and just plain unmusical.

I posted my article What's Wrong with CDs and Why Do They Sound so Horrible? many months ago here and have been talking about the problems presented by digital playback. Problems such as scattered laser light getting into the photo detector. Problems like CDs being out of round frequently. Overly aggressive dynamic range compression. Transparency of the polycarbonate layer is only about 90%. Thus, sound quality can be improved by improving the transparency such as the Japanese SHM CD discs have done using a superior clear layer. Many folks seem to be under the impression Reed Solomon Error Detection corrects all errors. Wassup with that? Lol. Furthermore, CD players contain a great number of semiconductor chips that pump RFI/EMI into the system. CDs and the player and all electronics are subject to harm from static electrical charge and magnetic fields thus respond to ionizers and demagnetizers. And vibration induced jitter is certainly a problem for CDs and computer audio. In fact, the whole CD playback is operating right at the verge of complete failure. The laser can barely stay on the nanoscale spiral of data. Even the complex servo system can't save it. Whether these problems explain all the sonic faults I hear with CDs it's difficult to say. And all of these comments apply to SACD, DVD and Blu Ray as well as CD.

You will notice, dear readers, I have not entered into the territory of the problems with CD playback produced by Interference by INFORMATION FIELDS. This interference by information fields is not unique to digital but I'm pretty sure this interference is greater for digital than for other media. Someday this whole unexplored area of information fields and their deleterious effect on the sound will make a good thread.

Finally, digital as a medium is subject to the whole range of ills that all audio playback is subject to such as fuses in the wrong direction, wires and cables in the wrong direction, the transformers infecting everything in their proximity with magnetic fields, the circuit boards and everything on them subjected to the incessant vibration produced by transformers, the subtle or not so subtle phase issues produced by all the capacitors in the system, problems associated with home AC power, and so forth.

My article, What's Wrong with CDs and Why Do They Sound So Horrible? can be found at

Www.machinadynamica.com/machina35.htm

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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analog

Geoff the things you have mentioned are not digital.

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Huh?

Michael, semantic arguments won't work. Define what you mean by the word digital. Then let's discuss it. How does that grab you? Let's have no more of these pretzel logic Q &A sessions that lead nowhere.

Geoff Kait
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I'm all for that

Hi Geoff

Digital is an audio language, it has no sound.

I said this earlier in the thread

"Had an interesting meeting with the digital guys "you do know that digital products are really analog". "Digital is a language not a circuit". Everything about digital as far as any of the parts working is analog. The word Digital has been mis-used and as a result mis-understood for many years. There is no such thing as a digital part. All parts are analog :of, relating to, or being a mechanism in which data is represented by continuously variable physical quantities. It isn't the digital language that is producing audio playback issues, but the playback components themselves."

Digital itself is not the problem, and because people have lumped the language in with the circuit, you hear people say digital has a problem, when it has nothing to do with the language. All audio languages are based on some sort of math forumla. The one we call digital is just that, a series of an asigned conversion format.

Digital as a language is extremely exacting, so much so that some analog playback parts have had a hard time playing it. This is why many times you hear that clustering in high frequencies. If you listen to a recording that has had the recorded code tuned to the play back the high frequency clustering goes away. The harmonics get a chance to spread out. This again is why I talk about tuning and real size soundstages so much.

I'm listening to a recording right now that at the beginning of this week sounded hard and tilted. After a day of settling and matching the sound of the system to the recording the highs smoothed out and became very open and extended. The thing we have noticed with digital is a discrete-amplitude signal or bitstream signal can't be treated in the same fashion as audio designers have been doing. In some ways it's far more forgiving but in other ways if the codes are not matched the recording will sound like a tin can. Match up the signal pathway though and the purity is outstanding.

A lot of times when I hear people talk about digital, they are blaming a language for what the analog parts and pieces are doing and that's not correct. As soon as that signal moves it's in the analog domain and therefore is by nature tunable.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Oh, geez, did he really say that?
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

Digital is an audio language, it has no sound.

I said this earlier in the thread

"Had an interesting meeting with the digital guys "you do know that digital products are really analog". "Digital is a language not a circuit". Everything about digital as far as any of the parts working is analog. The word Digital has been mis-used and as a result mis-understood for many years. There is no such thing as a digital part. All parts are analog :of, relating to, or being a mechanism in which data is represented by continuously variable physical quantities. It isn't the digital language that is producing audio playback issues, but the playback components themselves."

Digital itself is not the problem, and because people have lumped the language in with the circuit, you hear people say digital has a problem, when it has nothing to do with the language. All audio languages are based on some sort of math forumla. The one we call digital is just that, a series of an asigned conversion format.

Digital as a language is extremely exacting, so much so that some analog playback parts have had a hard time playing it. This is why many times you hear that clustering in high frequencies. If you listen to a recording that has had the recorded code tuned to the play back the high frequency clustering goes away. The harmonics get a chance to spread out. This again is why I talk about tuning and real size soundstages so much.

I'm listening to a recording right now that at the beginning of this week sounded hard and tilted. After a day of settling and matching the sound of the system to the recording the highs smoothed out and became very open and extended. The thing we have noticed with digital is a discrete-amplitude signal or bitstream signal can't be treated in the same fashion as audio designers have been doing. In some ways it's far more forgiving but in other ways if the codes are not matched the recording will sound like a tin can. Match up the signal pathway though and the purity is outstanding.

A lot of times when I hear people talk about digital, they are blaming a language for what the analog parts and pieces are doing and that's not correct. As soon as that signal moves it's in the analog domain and therefore is by nature tunable.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I never said digital was a circuit. Nor did I ever say digital was a sound. I don't know anyone who ever said that. Those are nothing more than another couple of your Strawman arguments. I'm getting a bad feeling. LOL What I mean by digital is the conversion of an analog waveform into digital code, you know, ones and zeros, so the code can be embedded on a CD and read by a laser. Digital coding is inherently higher in dynamic range and SNR than analog, it's the coding advantage, so that's a pretty big Mazo ball hanging out there for someone trying to claim digital is the same thing as analog. Recall I was in the coding division of Computer Sciences for military satellite communications. Hel-loo!! Coding has performance advantages which is why digital processing has been around for so long in the Military and other organizations requiring high performance. Of course audio is also interested in these specific advantages.

In my opinion it is much too simplistic AND incorrect to say as you have said that digital is the same as analog or all the parts of digital are analog. Let's make this simple.

Digital is a medium that is useful for storing a huge amount of data on a compact physical form, I.e. Compact Disc. Digital as a medium has very high data density, especially Blu Ray. As the laser wavelength comes down in diameter the size of the physical data on the disc decreases and the resolution increases. This is because of longer word lengths and higher sampling rates. provide Much higher resolution than Redbook. While theoretically the digital representation of an analog waveform should be indistinguishable from the original analog waveform we know that's simply not true.

If you could look at the physical data on a CD what you would see are very tiny nanoscale pits on the aluminum layer in spaced sequences that have a specific meaning. If you go a read my article on Using Colors to Improve CDs you will see this set of codes. These sequences are the CODES OF DIGITAL.

Pits and Lands come in 9 different lengths, from T3 to T11.

T3 = 10001
T4 = 100001
T5 = 1000001
T6 = 10000001
T7 = 100000001
T8 = 1000000001
T9 = 10000000001
T10 = 100000000001
T11 = 1000000000001

Now, the only part of what you said I might possibly agree with is that the optical reading of the disc is an analog process since the optical reading is nothing more than a series of ON and OFF signals at the photodetector - the photodetector is getting a RETURN signal when the laser is refelcted off the aluminum "land" bewteen two pits or a NO RETURN signal when the laser sees a pit. The digital process occurs downstream as does the D to A conversion. This is not rocket science. And not mumbo or jumbo. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I suspect those "digital engineers" were pulling your leg.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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I don't really care what you think geoff

Geoff I don't care if you agree with me or not, this is fact. This isn't a debate between me and you.

When you say "Digital has never gotten the soul of the music right. Not to mention the treble. Tape, on the other hand, does. Digital is good if you're a dead person in a casket six feet under." your not stating the truth.

you then say

"Digital coding is inherently higher in dynamic range and SNR than analog, it's the coding advantage, so that's a pretty big Mazo ball hanging out there for someone trying to claim digital is the same thing as analog."

The only part that is digital are the digits. The signal, from the point of function is analog.

I'll state again "All parts are analog :of, relating to, or being a mechanism in which data is represented by continuously variable physical quantities." This comes right out of the digital manual.

The problem is not the language, it's the "variable" physical quantities that the analog (continuously) are involved in. In other words Digital is more exacting than most analog circuits can deal with.

Why don't you instead of trying to differ from others find the common ground with others and build on that? You can't say "Digital is a soulless medium" then turn around and say "Digital coding is inherently higher in dynamic range and SNR than analog".

Another thing you said which is not true is that I said Digital and analog are the same. What I said was, digital products are analog, and digital is the language being used on those analog products.

Your going around downing digital, when in fact it is a more exacting language type. I would think you, with your background would not be puting up stupid pictures and calling digital names when it is indeed a higher level of info. I personally love tape but am not stupid enough to call the language of analog (separate from the physics) a superior language.

BTW, I haven't brought this up before because it's too funny to hear you talk, but my manager in the biz was cheif engineer over some of the military missile programing, so when I listen to you talk and scramble around and hear him talk it makes me chuckle. I understand everyone has their own style, it's just interesting to listen to him vs reading you. He seems so exacting and calm, and you seem so divisive and out of control. I don't picture the military giving you secrets.

Two places I would like to promote http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas my show report and second http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code the audio code.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Jack, you're dead

With apologies to Joe Jackson.

Jack, You're Dead

When you've got no more assurance
Than a great big hunk of lead
And if you don't respond to cassettes
Jack, you're dead!

When you get no kicks from cassettes
And you blow your top instead
It's a fact that you ain't living
Jack, you're dead!

If you just ain't got nobody
Since you've gone and lost your Walkman
Rigor Mortis has set in, daddy
Jack, you're dead!

What's the use of having cassettes
When your life hangs by a thread
If you ain't got no red corpuscles
Jack, you're dead!

When you get no kicks from analog
And the news begins to spread
All the cats will holler, "Murder!"
Jack, you're dead!

All the breath is leaked out of you
When your friends gather 'round the bed
Look at you and say, "Don't that tape sound natural?"
When that happens to you, daddy
Jack, you're dead!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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a good example

Hi Stereophile readers, unfortunately you will need to suffer through geoff kait and his trolling, but you can always visit us on Tuneland and not have to. He is good for laughs at the very least.

"An Internet troll is someone who comes into a discussion and posts comments designed to upset or disrupt the conversation. Often, in fact, it seems like there is no real purpose behind their comments except to upset everyone else involved. Trolls will lie, exaggerate, and offend to get a response."

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Mirror, Mirror, on the wall....

If you cannot tell the difference between a digital recording and an analog recording you need to get your hearing checked. If you cannot hear the advantages of cassettes immediately you need to get your hearing checked. If you cannot hear how bad untreated CDs sound you need to get your hearing checked. Your inability to hear is and I'm just guessing the natural result of years of stove piping, getting carried away with your own handiwork and ignoring the true reality of the very thing you call a hobby and occupation. See the irony? As for your interpretation of digital you're just playing games with semantics. Digital processing is nothing more than a representation of an analog waveform, AN APPROXIMATION, but without the fine details. You do know what the word APPROXIMATION means, right? How about the word SYNTHESIS? Would a picture help?

 photo photo_16_zps4tfpa3am.jpg

That is precisely why tape and vinyl provide more details of the recording, more rounded notes, more air, more squeakiness, more sparkle, more snap, crackle and pop - they contain all of the details, not just the APPROXIMATION. HEL-LOO. If you can't hear it that's your problem. But the proponents of digital have been telling us for thirty years it's close enough. And I'm here to tell YOU - and, yes, I realize I'm channeling Harry Pearson when I say this - they are just pulling your leg. Do you actually believe digital TVs are giving you the 100% picture? Think about it and get back to me.

The reason some engineers say that the digital signal is analog is that when the digital signal is transmitted it is transmitted as an electromagnetic wave just like an analog signal. But there the similarity ends since the information that is modulated on the signal is entirely different. In one case the waveform is a smooth sinusoid and in the other the waveform is a sinusoid that's made up of square functions. See picture. If the information that is carried on the signal is digital it must be DECODED on the receiving end. Follow?

But I digress. As I have been saying for lo these past six months there are many problems with digital PLAYBACK that CONSPIRE to DEGRADE THE SOUND. So, it's not really ONLY the digital process involved in the recording and mastering and disc manufacturing that is to blame. That is why one should NOT necessarily abandon CDs. Their performance can be DOUBLED rather easily. Can their performance be quadrupled? I think so.

As for all of your angst and anger, save the drama for yo mama.

An ordinary man has no means of deliverance.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We do Artificial Atoms Right

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Wow Geoffy, lots of people are turning in their graves

The likes of Shannon, Nyquist, Fourier etc. must all have been wrong, lucky you came to explain this to the world.
Go get some sleep!

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Actually

He's on the whole right. But he's such an ass I can scarcely defend him.

That said, CD's can be just fine. Nothing to get excited about, but okay none-the-less.

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jgossman, can you at least explain...

...the part with "He's on the whole right"?

Much things about D/A conversion (and mainly filtering) were poorly understood until recently but now these problems are already solved. Yes, I concede that the best solutions are found inside expensive boxes (as for now) but I trust the technology and math to trickle down to more affordable products.

BR,
Costin

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Very well put
jgossman wrote:

He's on the whole right. But he's such an ass I can scarcely defend him.

That said, CD's can be just fine. Nothing to get excited about, but okay none-the-less.

You are correct, CDs are OK. If you're into Mid Fi and pretending. Which I am not. I will make the concession that if CDs are properly treated and the CD player is treated, CDs at least have a fighting chance at Hi FI. Otherwise, fuggeddaboudit!

Audiophiles never learn how to solve the real fundamental problems in audio. They are therefore condemned to repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Jumping from one medium and format to another. Can't get me no...satisfaction. Hahahahaah

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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both side of the face, but that's ok

Geoff speaks out of both sides of his mouth but that's OK it brings up some good points, one of them being some don't understand digital as a language. When you look at the graph above it is misleading. In reality look at the rounded line getting rid of the squares close up and you will see what digital really looks like. It's not a squared wave at all. Digits are not square. People who only go as deep as basic equipment set to 2D wave forms are not very advanced in their thinking but it is what the audio hobbyist has done to try to make pictures of what they think audio looks like.

If this is as far as geoff has got in his studies of digital it explains his views and how far he has gone into the study of this. It's also why his reference of music hasn't made it past a portable cassette tape player.

A better way to look at digital can be found on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t268-the-audio-code . If geoff's view of digital is the way the typical audiophile views digital, I can see why the professional audio engineer an digital programer looks down on this part of the hobby.

All audio languages have math (digits) as their value guides. The language itself is not a moving part. As soon as it moves it becomes analog. I think this is where a lot of hobbyist get messed up in their understanding of the analog language vs the analog signal. A quick study of Vinyl grooves, Tapes magnetic charge, and the Digital pit gives a better understanding into languages and the way they are put into action becoming analog. Again I show this on the audio code on TuneLand.

I think this is an example of why some audio companies have excelled in digital designs and some have become expensive copy-cats of Sony and Pioneer as our high end audio designer friends have stated. I believe some in High End Audio do indeed get it, but many clearly do not understand digital at all. To those it's a side note of must have like docking, and they have not put in the same care and attention as they have into the phono and tape imputs. But this will change in time as all things do, more than likely with a younger crowd.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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DAT

here's something you guys might want to consider in the discussion

geoff said

"That is precisely why tape and vinyl provide more details of the recording, more rounded notes, more air, more squeakiness, more sparkle, more snap, crackle and pop - they contain all of the details, not just the APPROXIMATION. HEL-LOO. If you can't hear it that's your problem. But the proponents of digital have been telling us for thirty years it's close enough."

Geoff doesn't know how to separate the language from the storage of the language. In his thinking he is comparing vinyl and tape vs digital. I see this alot in the hobbyist, talking like the piece of vinyl is somehow the recorded language, same with the tape.

There are 3 sides to look at when talking about this topic.

1) the language
2) the storage
3) the mechanics

I bring up DAT for this discussion. This is the language of digital, stored on Tape, delivered in analog (continual) playback. A Compact Disc, Tape and Vinyl are not languages, but physical storage units. With tape you have head adjustments, with vinyl you have pickup adjustments and with CD the physical adjusting part was never developed. Listen to the same recording on DAT vs CD. They sound different. Same exact language two different sounds. This is why I "tune" my CD Players. Once tuned the harmonics explode in the stage.

I understand why geoff and maybe others haven't experienced this, they haven't tuned in the recorded code and that's really all digital needs to make it open up. You can do it on DAT and also with low mass CD Players. You can also do tuning by adjusting the laser.

It's odd to me that the audiophile hasn't put the same attention into digital and digital playback as they have tape and tables. I'm thinking maybe it has to do with the age of most audiophiles. We've gone through tweaking tables and maybe just don't have the interest in doing it again. That's my guess. However when spending the time to design the adjustments and puting in the time to learn how to make the adjustments Digital is an amazingly great sounding language. I tune all three and enjoy not only the language but also the application of the mechanics. Personally I feel the picture painted by those who have not figured out digital or it's playback partnerships, should sit on the sidelines until the mechanics come full circle. Puting down digital as a language is a little shallow and short sighted, yet I do understand that people who have not done have no idea what the doing is or how to even "do it".

You can't judge a guitars performance if your playing it out of tune.

This is an interesting hobby, but sometimes I think hobbyist try to insert judgements before looking at the whole of topics. Audio languages and the line between them and the actual analog process is certainly one area that could use some cleaning up.

Like I said though a lot of this could be a generation thing for those over 70 or so. They didn't grow up with the different audio languages and never thought about a tape as a physical unit being separate from the language on it. If I were wanting to compare digital vs analog as a language comparison I wouldn't be doing it CD vs Cassette Tape. I would do it, Cassette Tape vs Digital Audio Tape. This is what we did our comparisons with.

michael green
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http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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You keep avoiding the issue

Michael wrote,

"Like I said though a lot of this could be a generation thing for those over 70 or so. They didn't grow up with the different audio languages and never thought about a tape as a physical unit being separate from the language on it. If I were wanting to compare digital vs analog as a language comparison I wouldn't be doing it CD vs Cassette Tape. I would do it, Cassette Tape vs Digital Audio Tape. This is what we did our comparisons with."

Of course you can compare anything you want to make a point. However, you entirely miss my point (again). I am comparing PORTABLE CASSETTE PLAYERS with HIGH END CD PLAYERS, in particular my modded Oppo headphone system. And what I am saying is you need look no further than these inexpensive players to see how different CDs sound from cassette tape AND how superior cassette tape is to CD in terms of sheer musicality, presence, liveness, realism, speed, coherence, treble naturalness and dynamics. I am NOT claiming my cheap players are the ultimate at all, you are still PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You can always find a better cassette player or a better CD player. I am only making a general point. You're a little bit like the author of A Clockwork Orange, creating a whole special language that only you understands. You've created a Tower of Babel. Are you climbing a stairway to heaven?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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well

Well, someones understanding it cause we just sold over a hundred tuning parts today to people reading this and thanking me for making things clear.

I'm sure these guys could have bought the portable sony walkman cassette player and distributed them but they are choosing to start tuning.

Get Tuned!

Also I want to thank the readers who have visited our show report. We very much appreciate you visiting TuneLand and you are always welcome to be a part. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Interesting
michael green wrote:

Well, someones understanding it cause we just sold over a hundred tuning parts today to people reading this and thanking me for making things clear.

I'm sure these guys could have bought the portable sony walkman cassette player and distributed them but they are choosing to start tuning.

Get Tuned!

Also I want to thank the readers who have visited our show report. We very much appreciate you visiting TuneLand and you are always welcome to be a part. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

One assumes you will be up there with Bose pretty soon. I guess I didn't realize there were so many Pro Audio dudes out there. You go, Goldielocks!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Geoff, did you figure out...

...why R2R machines with more than one speed have better frequency response at higher speeds?
It is because the metal oxide deposit on the tape is not continuous but made of granules and each granule can only take one level of magnetization.

So the actual recording language is still digital, you moron!

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Have you lost your marbles?
iosiP wrote:

...why R2R machines with more than speed have better frequency response at higher speeds?
It is because the metal oxide deposit on the tape is not continuous but made of granules and each granule can only take one level of magnetization.

So the actual recording language is still digital, you moron!

I'm afraid you're starting to sound a little too much like Goldie, my besotted Costin. Have you completely lost your mind? I mean, whatever's left of it. Besides, Goodie says digital is just the same as analog. You guys better get your story straight.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Now all is crystal-clear to me, Geoffy!

You have no clue about the physical foundation of recording on a magnetic substrate, but still insist that it is analogue by nature. Gosh, the granularity of any tape recording depends on the "perceived size" of the magnetic dipoles of the coating, i.e. their physical size divided by the tape speed.
The reason you cannot record 22kHz on a cassette moving at 4.75cm/s is just that the fluctuation of the magnetic field in the recording head is too fast for the moving dipoles to be arranged differently, so what you get is an "average" magnetization for each dipole that do not follow the precise analogue waveform (look at the picture you posted, it's quite relevant for tape recording) but rather the average (discrete) value of the magnetic field to which the dipole is exposed.
And this, my little NASA scientist, is called... well, digital!

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Vinyl

I've been listening to LP's on my shiny new Project turntable, and they do sound awesome. They have a liveness and an immediacy that doesn't happen with CD's. The problem is the only way you can realize the potential of vinyl is by playing LP's which were mastered from analog master tapes, and there aren't many of them around. I did find a brand new original pressing of a Ringo album from 1973. And I'm considering ordering "The Beatles in mono" on line. But I also have listened to some digital discs lately which sound excellent. One is a blu-ray of Supertramps "Crime of the century". So apparently it is possible for a digital disc to sound very good. Why most of them don't is a mystery to me.

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What's that have to do with the price of spinach?
iosiP wrote:

You have no clue about the physical foundation of recording on a magnetic substrate, but still insist that it is analogue by nature. Gosh, the granularity of any tape recording depends on the "perceived size" of the magnetic dipoles of the coating, i.e. their physical size divided by the tape speed.
The reason you cannot record 22kHz on a cassette moving at 4.75cm/s is just that the fluctuation of the magnetic field in the recording head is too fast for the moving dipoles to be arranged differently, so what you get is an "average" magnetization for each dipole that do not follow the precise analogue waveform (look at the picture you posted, it's quite relevant for tape recording) but rather the average (discrete) value of the magnetic field to which the dipole is exposed.
And this, my little NASA scientist, is called... well, digital!

It's a fool's argument you're making. It's not digital unless the signal has been encoded into a digital stream of ones and zeros. And decoded on the other end. That my tipsy friend is digital. Anyone can make up some jibber jabber. That's akin to claiming that since the CD laser is a quantum mechanical device that CD players operate quantum mechanically, or that because automobiles have electrical parts like distributors that automobiles are electric vehicles. Hel-looo! But you're missing the point. CDs suck. You just haven't gotten the memo yet. Anyone who thinks CDs sound the same as cassettes is in dire need of ear candling.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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David, it's not about technology but about marketing

Most recent CDs (with some relevant exceptions) were mastered with plenty of compression to accomodate boombox users and radio stations. Furthermore, you just cannot compress the hell out of LPs because of physical limitations, but you can do this with digital formats. So it's not a format problem but rather a marketing approach and a speculation on the limits of each format. BTW, record producers know that someone willing to spend serious cash on a turntable and go through the whole ritual of cleaning, playing, cleaning, playing is not likely to accept a wrecked mastering.

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Excellent posting!

I was busy all day, but was excited to read the posting when I got back to the Phile!

This is the type of posting we need here! The rubble posting based on a lack of knowledge and experience goes nowhere, so this was a welcomed breath of fresh air.

As we get a community understanding of what the recording actually is it helps to sort out some of the technical and physical parts to these processes, and that's what the audiophile hobbyist needs to learn more than anything. If we as a particular listener get

1) the language
2) the storage
3) the mechanics

and can put things in their proper place, part of the battle of getting great sound is there. Listeners have always talked about the plus & minus of every format of the hobby, and those statements like the ones geoff makes about digital are simply misleading and out right lies. I believe he does this to try to get a rise, but it makes him look pretty darn stupid in my opinion, but that's a separate issue of us having trolls here.

The real focus should be on the understanding as Costin is pointing out, and how this understanding fits in with choosing recordings to listen to and making our playback systems able to play these recordings for what they are, and for what the systems are able to do. This to me "is" being an audiophile, and is what separates the true audiophile from the rest of the pack.

The audiophile is someone who studies, collects and listens to audio recordings. It's true that many have become equipment collectors and not all that into finding out how to get things to fit together, thinking their systems are judge over the recordings but I disagree with this approach. I believe the recording itself is the judge along with our ears, and the system and room are the tools we use to get there. If we learn what is happening we can then start to move toward the art of listening, which I propose is an action sport and not static. The worst thing an "audiophile" can have happen to him is to get in the mindset that this hobby is automatic and that all recordings somehow have the same codes. This is where I have knocked on the brains of audiophiles for many years and it still is hard for many to understand. The recording is a unique code, then stored, then "played" back either in-tune or out-of-tune or somewhere inbetween. Costin showed us how to tune his drivers, and I say the entire audio chain works on the same principle. Some folks are going to get this faster than others depending on how far they wish to take their hobby, but the fact is "tuning" is how we mate the recorded code to the playback process.

As you guys, explore what makes a system more tunable than the next your going to find that you have far more freedom and control over the music than you ever expected. This is the next major step to the "audiophile" part of this hobby. Some are going to try to tune with components that are too stuck in their characters and other are going to find components and methods that make the physical part mate far easier with the codes. The fact is come slow or fast, this is indeed not an "if", but a matter of realizing. I believe the hard part of this for many is the thought that the investing in massive boxes housing the components, was really a marketing tool, and face it, it hurts to see the High End Audio end of this loose it's macho. Guys picture big amps and other audio products as muscles. Instead of stereos producing delicate notes from resonating musical instruments we created a stereotypically masculine male driven image of the audio chain that never needed to happen. The audio code never needed to be over built, the male ego did. And that statement hurts a lot of guys who somehow got that vision of style as representing sound. Trust me the guys making this stuff understand the marketing end of the male ego much more than the end user thinks. A signal that can easily pass through a 22 guage cable doesn't need that huge chassis to protect it.

It's time to get to the music. That might be a painful statement for some, but only you can make the choice of what you think brings you the best sound possible, and if you look around you the audiophile masculine marketing has ran it's course.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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Define audiophile

Michael wrote,

"The audiophile is someone who studies, collects and listens to audio recordings. It's true that many have become equipment collectors and not all that into finding out how to get things to fit together, thinking their systems are judge over the recordings but I disagree with this approach. I believe the recording itself is the judge along with our ears, and the system and room are the tools we use to get there. If we learn what is happening we can then start to move toward the art of listening, which I propose is an action sport and not static. The worst thing an "audiophile" can have happen to him is to get in the mindset that this hobby is automatic and that all recordings somehow have the same codes. This is where I have knocked on the brains of audiophiles for many years and it still is hard for many to understand. The recording is a unique code, then stored, then "played" back either in-tune or out-of-tune or somewhere inbetween. Costin showed us how to tune his drivers, and I say the entire audio chain works on the same principle. Some folks are going to get this faster than others depending on how far they wish to take their hobby, but the fact is "tuning" is how we mate the recorded code to the playback process."

Well, putting aside your audio code goggledegook for the time being, I simply wish to point out just how far we are apart on something so seemingly simple as the definition of an audiophile. There are I suppose many definitions of an audiophile but if I can be so bold to point out a few things you left out: audiophiles are determined to improve their sound. They investigate. They are curious. They don't claim to have all the answers. They don't assume Science has all the answers. They actually don't even need Science's approval for anything related to what they can determine simply by listening. They don't get all hung up on their own words and deeds. They maintain their composure in the face of overwhelming mystery and confusion. They seek the true path to enlightenment and have learned to spot phony baloney a mile away.

She must have tapped my phone
She saw me coming
I felt like I was cloned
She saw me coming
She had me on the ropes
She saw me coming
Took me for a dope
She saw me coming
Yes she did, yes she did
She saw me coming

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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defining the audiophile

Geoff being with you here over the past year I can see what you would like me to say, but you see when I wakeup every morning and turn on my big flat screen I get to see what we listeners from all camps all over the world were and are up to. This makes me only wanting to answer you to keep these threads infront of the audiophiles reading.

The number of Stereophile readers who have come over to TuneLand exploring, has been worth every angled attack you have made. It's like waking up to the orders, designing and other jobs I need to do to share info to the inquiries. So on one hand I have to tolerate you and May, and on the other I have to deal with the attention you and May have given us. At first it was a pain, but now all I have to do is decide how much time I give to your spins, and how much info I share. You and she have done the rest for us.

There's nothing that makes someone look like they know what they're doing than to be engaged with a some who don't on an open audio forum. I would love nothing more than for the readers to visit May's and your's websites and then come visit TuneLand. I don't want to marginalize anything that you point at that fits in our camp, and recently both you and May have opened the doors for us to share even more of our experiences. Things that we do daily but don't get a chance to talk about much. But since the both of you have been on the war path, I have been able to share things that otherwise would have looked like I was being a mystical psychoacoustics psychophysics nut. As I said, it works much better you guys looking like the nuts and me being able to break things down either here or TuneLand in more reasonable ways so others can understand.

What both you and May are failing to recognize is there are intelligent people here who would probably love to have fair exchanges about these topics and more. This isn't about trying to gather people up to choose sides, and when you make it look like that the readers know that if they choose the wrong side they will in time be called out on it, cause it's there in writing. They look at you for a source and see you pushing portable CD and Cassette Players. They look at May and see no system. They look at Costin and can see someone thinking through the hobby and industry and can identify a particular level of experience and I might add, is one that is not afraid of doing, and having his own mind.

I don't claim to know the minds of anyone until I get to know them through their words and actions, but I believe you are right when you say

"have learned to spot phony baloney a mile away"

I know I've learned to spot internet trolling since meeting you. I also know now when some come up to heckle for the sake of their own ego. There's a few things I have learned since coming up here posting. I've learned there are a lot of people who come up reading who don't post. A lot of listeners who wish this forum would tighten up on the antics you engage in. I've learned that many here are happy to see me bring back to light "the audiophile cheapskate" and I've heard from others who have hope in this hobby again after feeling they have been sold a bill of goods for so long.

There's a lot to learn geoff, and there's all the time in the world to learn it.

So, sorry I didn't engage with you on the meaning of an audiophile, I'm too busy being one for that :)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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"There's a lot to learn"

Yes, there is a lot to learn and I have attempted to convey some of the more advanced concepts lo these past six months. But for some reason, perhaps a learning disability, an all-consuming tuning obsession, who knows, you have been particularly immune to learning new concepts. You know, Advanced Concepts like how to absorb scattered laser light, visible and invisible light. Advanced concepts such as mind matter interaction. And Why transformers are bad for sound. Why cables are bad for sound. Advanced concepts such as sub Hertz vibration isolation and constrained layer damping. You claim to be familiar with these concepts, but one suspects your protestations are just so much marketing fluff. This is the old Ethan Winer approach to audio marketing: if someone has a competing product, the best approach is claim the competing product doesn't work, or is unscientific, or has been examined by experts and found to be ineffective. All of those logical fallacies (translation - phony arguments) are straight out of Zen and The Art of Debunkery.

Zen and Art of Debunkery (excerpts). Feel free to use any of these phony arguments against real audiophiles.

<> Put on the right face. Cultivate a condescending air that suggests that your personal opinions are backed by the full faith and credit of God. Employ vague, subjective, dismissive terms such as "ridiculous" or "trivial" in a manner that suggests they have the full force of scientific authority.

<> Reinforce the popular misconception that certain subjects are inherently unscientific. In other words, deliberately confuse the *process* of science with the *content* of science. (Someone may, of course, object that since science is a universal approach to truth-seeking it must be neutral to subject matter; hence, only the investigative *process* can be scientifically responsible or irresponsible. If that happens, dismiss such objections using a method employed successfully by generations of politicians: simply reassure everyone that "there is no contradiction here!")

<> Arrange to have your message echoed by persons of authority. The degree to which you can stretch the truth is directly proportional to the prestige of your mouthpiece.

<> Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, "I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims!" (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!)

<> If examining the evidence becomes unavoidable, report back that "there is nothing new here!" If confronted by a watertight body of evidence that has survived the most rigorous tests, simply dismiss it as being "too pat."

<> "Occam's Razor," or the "principle of parsimony," says the correct explanation of a mystery will usually involve the simplest fundamental principles. Insist, therefore, that the most familiar explanation is by definition the simplest! Imply strongly that Occam's Razor is not merely a philosophical rule of thumb but an immutable law.

<> Since the public tends to be unclear about the distinction between evidence and proof, do your best to help maintain this murkiness. If absolute proof is lacking, state categorically that "there is no evidence!"

<> If sufficient evidence has been presented to warrant further investigation of an unusual phenomenon, argue that "evidence alone proves nothing!" Ignore the fact that preliminary evidence is not supposed to prove *any*thing.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
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Geoffy can't do...

...a simple scientific experiment. He couldn't make a simple comparison between two items where all variables except one are controlled. Geoffy wrote "Take a cable with a black jacket and listen to it so younger [sic] an idea what it sounds like. Then wrap the outside of the black jacket say 1/4 the length with WHITE electrical tape. Listen to the cable again. You should be able to hear the sound is better with the white tape around the jacket."

Geoffy doesn't know what all grade schoolers need to know about scientific methodology.

Go back to http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_m... and read where you went wrong here.

Are you smarter than a 5th Grader, Geoffy?

Nope.

michael green
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The CES 2015

First off, I'm glad our CES 2015 Report has received so much attention http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas I hope we have and will always be able to show a fun side to the hobby. I also appreciate members like ChrisS, who don't mind pointing out the internet trolls who pollute the hobby. Some of these trolls like May Belt and Geoff Kait seem like they haven't enjoyed the audiophile hobby for years. At the same time for those who wish to try the toys they push and the mind tweaks, if you got the bucks to spend and you have the time, why not. The hobby is just as much about the weird characters who have found their money pond, as it is about writters who have audio equipment floating through their homes every couple of months.

For myself, if this is what it takes to get the hobby to the next level of performance, it is what it is. I'm more interested in the people out there who have seen us take the extra effort and are beginning to or have already been walking the tune.

In case your new to this, the tune is about "how to take your system from A to Z in performance". We point to what audio is, how it works when recorded and store, and how to play it back in a way that represents the original recording. The audiophile hobby is huge and goes all the way from the performer to the end listener. More people are listening to music today than ever before, however the High End portion of the hobby is shrinking quicky. I don't think this will last long. It's nothing more than the changing of the guard, technology meets listener, that's all it is. Stereophile whether we view them as slow or up to date is making the change with the rest of the world. Each year we see a little more of the new make it's way to the pages, and I believe Stereophile must see the future written on their wall as well as the rest of the listening community.

Watching the hobby, any hobby, go through change is what shows who the real "phile" is. True the fellas who stay in the past are just as much a part of the hobby as the very latest, but the true audiophile is the guy who is able to look at this hobby as having it all. We don't look at the old being better than the new, but more our world has expanded. We will always have bench designers as well as the bigger companies that give us far more to choose from and fall in-love with. The days of the stuck in the mudd old farts is dying off literally and I find the elder listening gentlemen, having less of the chest pounding guilt drive and more listening maturity. I picture the true audiophile as the guy who has spent his years having fun looking through the golden age of equipment and now has settled down into the method of listening. The method of listening is the next chapter for the serious extreme audiophile. The buying part of the hobby for them is coming to a close and the learning part is settling in. How many times can we buy the same thing, is coming to an end, and what makes the sound happen and how do I get to that sound, is the future.

I also see the end to the equipment "classes". At one time this was an important part of the marketing behind the high end audio, but year after year of buying the "best" only to watch it be replaced by the "next best" had to end sometime. The hobby can only go so long selling to the same crowd of guys who have to own their favorite reviewers bests. In every hobby, especially listening, there comes a point where your personal best is better than following someone elses. We who have been audiophiles for many years have become our own experts and have developed our own sense of expertise. I remember many of these reviewers for example when they were clients of mine (don't worry I won't tell on you lol). Now they write for the very industry they themselves were very confused about, and maybe that's the way it should be. After all isn't the audiophile hobby more about personal growth over anything?

So I watch these people still coming up to posture once in a while, and of course the trolls flame away, but I know your out there, cause many of you contact me and help me to stay on course. I know the true audiophile spirit is alive and well. Your the guys spending your time listening while the rest of the hobby is talking. You have your collection and every time you add to it, it's like someone just donated to your retirement, or added an extra day to life. Your the guy who has that smile on his or hers face everytime you think about the next recording, and your also the guy who when it may not sound just right, knows the tricks to your system to get it there. Your the guy who has gotten past yourself and is willing to learn. Learning about the system, the recordings, and most of all yourself. You are the guys I consider fellow audiophiles. And you guys hold the keys to the treasures we call music.

So Chris, let me thank you for helping to keep these pages clean. And geoff, even though I wish you would chill sometimes, let me thank you for, in your own way, providing me a chance to talk to my fellow audiophile friends. I guess it's true what they say about press and gossip :)

And Stereophile, thank you for giving us much of our history in review, but most of all thank you creator, for creating music. There are many parts to us, all a part of indeed us.

“The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains.” Paul Simon

have fun listening and thank you for allowing us to be apart of your journey

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
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Mirror, mirror on the wall....

Michael wrote,

"First off, I'm glad our CES 2015 Report has received so much attention http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t278-ces-2015-las-vegas I hope we have and will always be able to show a fun side to the hobby. I also appreciate members like ChrisS, who don't mind pointing out the internet trolls who pollute the hobby. Some of these trolls like May Belt and Geoff Kait seem like they haven't enjoyed the audiophile hobby for years. At the same time for those who wish to try the toys they push and the mind tweaks, if you got the bucks to spend and you have the time, why not. The hobby is just as much about the weird characters who have found their money pond, as it is about writters who have audio equipment floating through their homes every couple of months."

You know, you should be a little careful about calling people names. Especially when YOU call people TROLLS. When a person posts Internet trash about someone - as you did when you posted the link to the unintentionally funny and ridiculous Rip Off Report and the link to the equally funny but totally untrue James Randi Education Foundation article that focused on yours truly, do you know what that person is called? A troll. Hel-loo!!

I can certainly understand why you appreciate ChrisS so much, you know, what with his being such a helpful Sockpuppet and everything.

By the way, love your spelling of the word "writers" ....Very charming. Lol.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
trolls

Actually, I only recently learned what internet trolls were in an attempt to find out why people often call you this name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

As far as the spelling, guilty as charged. I'm a terrible speller, always have been. One year (the only class I ever failed) I passed French and Spanish and flunked English lol. Never thought I was going to spend my later years having a forum and being asked to write books. I pitty my editors LOL.

Poking a little fun at myself though, at least I'm in good company. http://www.onlinecollegecourses.com/2012/01/24/15-famous-thinkers-who-couldnt-spell/

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

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