Think Pieces

Bob Katz on Loudspeaker Isolation

Jim Austin | Dec 14, 2020

(Photo by Mary Kent)

Of late, Stereophile has written a lot about vibration-isolating footers under loudspeakers. I have been listening to the Magico M-Pods (under the Magico M2 loudspeaker, which won our Loudspeaker of the Year Award for 2020, and which I'll review, in follow-up fashion, in an upcoming issue of this magazine). Following an impressive demo at a 2019 audio show, I also tried IsoAcoustic footers under the Revel Ultima Salon2 loudspeakers. Michael Fremer tried them under his Wilson Alexxes. We both reported positive results.

The idea of isolating loudspeaker vibrations from floors is controversial. Many (perhaps most) designers believe that dynamic loudspeakers in particular—those with significant moving mass in their cones—should be rigidly connected to the floor as is typically done with spikes. A rigid connection of the speaker to the floor reduces the Newton-3 reactive motion (footnote 1) of the cabinet in response to the motion of the cones, heavy woofers in particular. Cabinet motion could be expected to smear the loudspeaker's sound.

Against that is another idea: With spikes, vibrations will be transferred from the loudspeaker to the floor, and the transfer of vibrations to a suspended wood floor will be quite different than, say, to a concrete floor, or wood on concrete, and so on. This transfer of energy could affect the sound of a loudspeaker both directly—by altering its output in ways that depend on the floor type—and indirectly, via the subsequent emission of low-level sound from energy transferred to the floor and attached walls. Loudspeaker performance, then, will vary from system to system, not just due to room acoustics—that's well-known—but also due to complexities of the loudspeaker's interactions with the room's surfaces.

In a recent conference paper delivered online to the Audio Engineering Society, mastering engineer and Stereophile contributor Bob Katz investigated in detail the coupling of a loudspeaker to a room with and without isolation, and the effect of vibration isolation on a loudspeaker's measured response.

The room in question is Katz's Studio B, which is modestly sized, with a volume of 34.3m³. The floor is well-damped and suspended. Some walls are plaster-and-lath while others are made from gypsum board. The loudspeakers are the Kii Audio Three. The isolators used are EVPs from avroomservice.com; these are essentially low-pass filters with a claimed transition frequency of about 6Hz; above that frequency they are estimated to block about 90% of sound.

When isolation was not desired, a set of blocks were substituted that were identical in form but with absorbing material replaced by kiln-dried white oak, a very hard wood.

Three measurement microphones detected changes in the frequency response (with and without isolators): at the listening position, near the front wall on the right side, and near the back wall on the right side. An accelerometer was used to measure vibrations in various surfaces, on the base of the loudspeakers and at locations around the room.

First the left loudspeaker: At lower frequencies, as expected, the isolated loudspeaker moved more than the loudspeaker mounted on the wood blocks. (Decoupling it from the floor means freeing it up to move.) Measured at the loudspeaker's base, the difference was most pronounced around 200Hz, where vibrations in the vibration-isolated loudspeaker base were some 20dB higher than when the speaker was mounted on wood. A surprise: At 1kHz, vibration was about 8dB higher with the wood base than with the isolating base.

Throughout most of the audible spectrum, the floor moved more with the speaker on wood blocks than with it on the isolating device; the difference ranged from 5–8dB, rising to 12dB at 1kHz. However, at lower frequencies—below about 60Hz—floor vibrations increased when the isolators were used—another surprise, at least to me.

Results were qualitatively similar for the right loudspeaker, but in detail they were quite different, which reinforces the assumption that the coupling of a loudspeaker to a floor is a complicated business, depending on local acoustics and details of the floor's construction.

Wall vibration was also complex, the two loudspeakers yielding different results at different frequencies, again demonstrating (or seeming to) that coupling depends on structural details.

Acoustical measurements were taken using Room EQ Wizard, at the microphone positions mentioned previously. Measured at the listening position, there were differences with and without the isolators, mainly in the midrange, but they were modest and inconsistent between the L and R loudspeakers.

Katz believes that the front microphones—the ones closest to a loudspeaker and also to a corner—tell a more interesting story. Starting at about 600Hz and extending through the higher part of the audio band, the SPLs of the loudspeakers with the isolators were lower by an average of as much as about 1dB. (These measurements were reported with one-octave smoothing, to better show trends.) This behavior was common to both speakers. Over such a wide frequency range, the difference is likely to be audible. Between 300Hz and 600Hz, there's a smaller difference in the other direction, the isolators slightly increasing loudspeaker output in that range.

Response at the rear microphone was once again complex, the two loudspeakers giving divergent results. Katz made several other acoustical measurements, including total harmonic distortion; he found very similar results with the isolators and the wood blocks, except between about 45Hz and 100Hz, where distortion with the isolators was reduced by as much as 6dB. This suggests (to me) the existence of a floor resonance that is suppressed with the use of isolators; other interpretations are possible. Energy Time Curve analysis revealed many short, negative-going spikes in the wood-block measurements that are significantly reduced with isolators (although a smaller number of short spikes are increased in amplitude with the isolators). Measurements of frequency-dependent reverberation time (T30) were complex.

To me, the most interesting results were the waterfall plots (figs.22 & 23 in Katz's AES paper), which show a dramatic reduction in delayed energy for the left loudspeaker, with the isolators, compared with the wood blocks, from about 40Hz to above 200Hz, with one strip of delayed energy remaining—even reinforced—between about 95Hz and 110Hz. For the right loudspeaker, the results are ambiguous (figs.24 & 25). Note that the left loudspeaker is proximate to the gypsum-board wall, which could be expected to vibrate more, while the right loudspeaker's adjacent wall is plaster.

Katz also reports, without providing details, that "some critical listeners have observed" a "subtle increase in clarity . . . when a loudspeaker is isolated from its supporting surface." Katz concludes that "In the main, isolators placed under floor-standing loudspeakers over a wood floor produce a measurable and often strong improvement in performance." The exceptions, he writes, "seem to be related to the unique and non-symmetrical shell construction in this room." In his video presentation, Katz emphasized this effect on subjective sound quality, concluding that "isolation placed under loudspeakers has proved to be an effective tool, resulting in sound quality that is cleaner, tighter, quieter, and deeper." That's consistent with Michael Fremer's experiences (and to a lesser extent my own), but it is merely mentioned, not supported by evidence presented in the paper or the presentation.

I'm inclined to spin the results a little differently. The large differences observed from one loudspeaker to the other show, I'm thinking, how important the fine details of room construction are in affecting the interface between the loudspeaker and the room. In standard construction, such details vary greatly from structure to structure and spot to spot. How closely spaced are the floor joists? How thick is the plywood under a wood floor? How thick is the flooring itself? If the floor is nailed, how closely spaced are the nails? If it is glued, how much and what kind of glue was used? How uniform is all of this? The results also appear to show that coupling via the air is important, which is hardly surprising. I also find myself wondering how the measurements would differ with other commercially available isolators (footnote 2).

Footnote 1: For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.

Footnote 2: For an examination of how the interface between a bookshelf loudspeaker and the stand on which it sits affects the vibrational behavior of its cabinet, see my article here.—John Atkinson

COMMENTS

Loved this article.

Submitted by jimtavegia on December 14, 2020 - 9:31am

As if we didn't have enough to worry about. Knowing what Bob has invested in his mastering suite, this had to be eye opening even to him.

I hope we get to read more from the Adventures of Bob Katz.

Building Loudspeakers

Submitted by tonykaz on December 14, 2020 - 10:38am

You lads are building loudspeakers where the listener is inside the 2,000 cu.ft. enclosure.

Our little hobby has migrated to 1,000 Watt Amplification, 20db of dynamic range, deep bass capability, significantly better music source sound quality and staggering prices.

Each listening room is becoming a laboratory of experimental scientists.

I admire your devotion and determination for this listening environment refinement quest.

Headphones are my short-cut to the needed solution.

Tony in Venice

ps. I wonder if a person could build a gigantic clone of one of the better Loudspeaker transducer systems, climb inside and listen away? Maybe that's what Mr.Fremmer has created with his Basement Hermitage.

ps.2) Mr.Katz, you are hot stuff in that Red outfit. I've been hearing nice things about y'all

Headphones always work better for me.

Submitted by jimtavegia on December 14, 2020 - 3:54pm

I might think that in 2020 and beyond we would not see so many 4 star or less ratings of "sound" for music releases. I cannot believe that we still need more plug-ins to make a 5 star recording, the material is another matter and why there is another rating.

What type of covering was ...

Submitted by Ortofan on December 14, 2020 - 3:39pm

... was on the floor in Katz's studio?

How much difference is there between bare concrete or wood flooring, vinyl covering, tile, area rugs, wall-to-wall carpet with underlaid padding, etc?

If the woofer and midrange/tweeter units can be separated, should they be separated and should they be coupled to or decoupled from the floor in the same or different manner?

(Where did Katz find a suit that matches the finish of the Kii speakers?)

Interaction with sound waves penetrating the ground

Submitted by Gojira on December 15, 2020 - 2:50am

Vibration isolation is not an invention of the hi-fi industry.
They are mostly used in scientific applications such as electron microscopy. The results of a long series of research reveal that in our case, the loudspeakers transmit vibrations into the floor, where some of them move further and a considerable proportion work back into the loudspeakers. In addition to the diaphragm movements, there are also some from the vibrations, which leads to a reduction in accuracy and consequently to smearing of the reproduction. I've now isolated all the devices in my chain from vibrations, with a dramatic increase in sound quality of all aspects. Unfortunately, this fact has still not been sufficiently recognized by the hi-fi industry.

But in Electron Microscopy

Submitted by PeterG on December 15, 2020 - 6:49pm

Good point about the importance of reducing vibration from the floor in microscopy. An import difference though is that in electron microscopy, there are virtually no vibrations coming from the instrument, and the instrument is designed to be insulated from the room. But with speakers we have huge vibrations from the instruments, and those instruments are designed to interact with the room.

quite right

Submitted by Gojira on December 16, 2020 - 12:18am

Thanks for your thought. It is true that anti-vibration measures under the loudspeakers only solve part of the problem. I am convinced that a room and the elements housed in it, like our audio systems, can never be completely freed from undesired events such as vibrations. But you can at least reduce the effects so that the sound improves massively. I have dealt with this topic for a long time and have succeeded in converting sound into heat without much effort. Quite simply with the use of foam elements that are under the speakers and also, for example, under my turntable. I plan to equip the listening room with further elements of this kind. The sound quality has improved spectacularly.

" with speakers we have huge vibrations from the instruments,

Submitted by Jack L on January 24, 2021 - 12:36pm

...... and those instruments are designed to interact with the room." quoted PeterG.

Good suggestion !

The main stream loudspeaker design is to go for most rigid enclosure in order to reduce its vibration to minimum.

Yet there is another design concept, though not popular, contradictory to enclosure rigidness.

We know too well a musical instrument produces music through the vibration of its enclosure. So WHY not a loudspeaker enclosure so design/built to vibrate like an musical instrument in order to reproduce music closest to live ????

During one of my annual business trip offshore years back, I got the chance of auditioning a pair of small bookshelf loudspeakers built such way:- light & flimsy built wooden enclosure. Yet they sounded so exceedingly musical I dropped my jaws bigtime.

I was first given to audition the USD170,000 German Advantguarde flagship: Trio XD horns +_Basshorn XD in its regional rep studio. I was not impressed at all by the clinical sound of the gigantic horn system.

From sublime to ridiculous, I was switched to the very light & flimsy bookshelvers which happened to be there for demonstration as well. Unbelievably, they sounded exceedingly musical that I dropped my jaw bigtime !! So, IMO, this Little David killed the gigantic Goliah.

I later found out this USD38,000 tiny bookshelvers were design/built in Japan by a musical instrument manufacturer. No wonder they were built so light & flimsy like an the enclosure of a musical instrument !!!!!!!! However design I'd not care, they sounded so musically enjoyable to me.

In fact, I also auditioned a pair of small so-called floorspeakers (2-way with a 8" woofer), made by Audio Note England many years back. The enclosures were also built flimsy & light that it can be grabbed under the arm. Yet they sounded so live & enjoyable.

Listening is believing

Jack L

"I've now isolated all the devices in my chain from vibrations,

Submitted by Jack L on January 23, 2021 - 1:36pm

....... with a dramatic increase in sound quality of all aspects." quoted Gojira

Bingo.

That's what I've done to my ALL components, signal/loudspeaker cables & power cables since day one decades back. I'd consider such airborne/structural vibration as "tweaking" though there is physics behind it.

I am glad I've had my audio den installed down my house basement since day one, with seamless poured concrete flooring & wall structure. So, unlike wooden structures so vulnerable, zero concrete structural vibration to affect the sound. Being 10 feet subgrade, zip external noise to distract my listening.

Spikes underneath my 2-way KEF standspeakers tubular steel tripods, enchored onto the solid concrete floor covered with wall-to-wall cushioned carpet + thick area rug.

Concrete walls are finished with wood panels supported by glasswool filled wooden framework against the concrete walling.

Wall-to-wall suspended ceiling system with gypsum tiles to provide controlled brighter acoustics.

Spikes, tiptoes to support my CD, DVD-audio & wifi Blu-ray players & one small tube power amp. The heavy large tube power amp - its bottom plate bolted with facing down heavy-duty spikes, rested on a heavy natural grey granite block 'floated' on dense rubber pad.

All floor lying audio/power cables are elevated from the carpeted floor with small semi-rigid foam blocks, 1 foot apart.

I've left nothing to chance for undue airborne/component self-vibration.

Yes, IMO, it has achieved some "dramatic increase in sound quality of all aspects".

Listening is believing

Jack L

Thanks for your comment Jack L!

Submitted by Gojira on January 25, 2021 - 1:20am

My experiments and research into scientific elaborations in the field of vibration isolation have led me to ban everything that is rigid on the devices and especially the speakers.

I removed all the hard spikes from under my equipment. I've gone so far as to even remove the motherboard screws in my amplifier. The circuit board now only rests loosely on small silicone pads. The sound improvements are gigantic.

My research has shown that it makes sense to me that, for example, a house or a bridge that is built flexibly is much more likely to withstand an earthquake because it can swing than a rigid structure cannot. Stiffness only increases vibrations inside and that damages the sound quality enormously.

So far, my speakers have been on MDF stands that I built myself. Later I used device feet that made the speakers float on magnetic fields.

I have a problem with neighbors who complain about noise. For two weeks now, my speakers have been standing on large blocks made of medium-strength foam. So far, there have been no further complaints, i have to check that more closely.

That was the upgrade in the greatest degree. The effects are so great it is hard to believe. I read on a university website that foam is very effective at converting sound into heat. Since I got the parts the sound quality has improved dramatically, especially in the bass. My bass is now so great that I no longer need a subwoofer. If you would like more information, please contact me, also by email.
Greetings from Germany!

“My bass is so great that I don't need a subwoofer" qtd Gojira

Submitted by Jack L on January 25, 2021 - 8:21am

Please define "so great". In quantity n/or quality. Personally, I go for clean, tight & defined deep bass. NO boomy bass for me ! That's why I've installed active subwoofers for my system to deliver powerful CLEAN deep bass.

Jack L

Hi Jack!

Submitted by Gojira on January 26, 2021 - 2:04am

I'm sorry. That is probably because I write in German and have Google translate it. Apparently, I didn't check my comment any further after that.

Since the foam was used as a speaker stand, the sound has changed so much, that you might think you're sitting in front of a new system. Overall, the power of the sound has increased significantly. Everything shines much more strongly now. The bass goes much deeper, has a powerful effect, spreads more widely, is louder, more three-dimensional and more complexly textured.

I invited a manufacturer who also believed that the subject of subwoofers was done for me.

Because it really sounds like a separate subwoofer without exaggeration. But I still have to mention, that I also modified the mid-bass drivers of my Spendors a few years ago.

What stands out the most is the fact, that the music now only comes from the speakers alone. It seems as if everything in the listening room no longer interacts with the sound.

The system seems totally separate from everything else in the room.
My turntable will also benefit from this. Acoustic feedback that is amplified no longer takes place.
As a result, distortions have decreased significantly.
And it is a cheap solution, it only costs 100 Euros for the pair.

Lately, I've believed the sound power of my system might be too great for the relatively small space. But now that is no longer the case. Apparently, there are no intensifying effects on the furnishings and walls from the sound that spreads in the room. Also, the boom is gone.

Something else completely surprised me. If I sit in a triangle in front of the loudspeakers, the force of sound is very great. If I get up and stand next to the loudspeakers, much less of it can be heard than before. The volume used to spread much more strongly in the room and now almost only in the direction of the listening position. I have to hear more first to get a better picture. I haven't used these parts that long.

"Stiffness only increases vibration inside & that damages sound

Submitted by Jack L on January 25, 2021 - 8:31am

.......quality enormously." quoted Gorjira.

But the mian stream of loudspeaker enclousres design/build is for maximum rigidness to reduce the panels vibration.

So how can you explain it ?

JacK L

Stiffness in Loudspeakers

Submitted by Gojira on January 26, 2021 - 1:28am

Hi-fi equipment is never perfect. One of the most contradicting entities in an audio system is the speaker. There is probably no other type of device that hinders its task as much as these transducers. On the one hand, they should generate sound waves, but these have a strong influence on the task of moving membranes undisturbed and as precisely as possible.

You can't suppress vibrations, especially not by giving elements more rigidity, that only worsens it. You can imagine it with a tube made of aluminum and a thread of yarn. Which of the two will resonate more strongly? It's a physical fact, and paradigms that are emerging all the time in the hi-fi world are fashionable, change over time, and are rarely based on science. Often there is simply trial and error and unproven claims are made.

We live in a universe of vibrations and resonances, that is already present in the atoms. By increasing the stiffness one only changes the resonance behavior of the material.

I mostly hear British studio monitors and understand them a bit like musical instruments. There won't be an even remotely perfect speaker anytime soon. As a designer, you can only ever make acceptable compromises. There are different philosophies. I know a German expert who is very successful in developing and modifying electronics and loudspeakers. In his opinion, he has given up fighting against resonances and instead made friends with them through structural features. For many years he has been modifying devices in such a way that he understands them like a guitar or violin. I learned most of it from him.

Instruments generate vibrations that become music and for that, they need resonating bodies. The sound can then be refined because of structural properties. That is why he took the path of using the inevitable vibrations in his designs to advantage. The housings of its speakers and electronics vibrate in a very controlled manner on a microscopic scale and support the development of the sound. This gives him control over what is happening, the sound is very neutral and extremely realistic. In principle, his products swing in harmony with the music they create. It reminds me of bridges that can swing with earthquakes and remain intact.

He is a pioneer in the industry and who knows, maybe one day his insight will influence the way people understand and build loudspeakers and become mainstream. He and my findings do not represent what is currently trendy in the scene. This gives us a reproduction quality that is second to none. This corresponds to the opinion of many experts, even some from universities who conduct sound research and are in exchange. This developer is now also working at the MIT. Findings of this kind are not yet widespread. One must also consider that there are always many ways that can lead to the goal. And there is a lot more to be said about it.

"he took the path of using inevitable vibrations in his design."

Submitted by Jack L on January 26, 2021 - 2:48pm

Hi Gojira

All roads lead to Rome.

So contray to the loudspeaker design main stream: trying to eliminate loudspeaker enclosure vibrations, yr German expert friend makes use of such "inevitable vibrations to improve the sound.

That is exactly what I have found out re my above post to you that two very good sounding brandname loudspeakers built in light & flimsy enclosures: one design/built in Japan by a musical instrumen comapany & one by Audio Note England. So live & musically enjoyable for pretty reasonable price level.

So whichever big-ticketed brandname loudspeaker manufacturers employing the rigid enclosure design concept, should halt to rethink if they haven been taking the right path to achieve the musical goal !!!!

Listening is believing

Jack L

mav52

Submitted by mav52 on December 15, 2020 - 5:49am

How is speaker cabinet motion impacted by a solid concrete floor. and what isolation devices are used as not everyone has wooden suspended floors.

Just recently we tried an

Submitted by CG on December 15, 2020 - 6:06am

Just recently we tried an experiment. This experiment was new to our listening experience, not new to the world.

The floors in our house are suspended like most in our area. The basic construction is an array of 2x10's that sit on the concrete building foundation. Halfway from the front to the back of the foundation there is also a steel beam running left to right, also supported by the foundation that helps support the floor above. On top of the 2x10 frame is a couple layers of plywood. On top of that is carpet. Some people have hardwood floors on top of the plywood, then put rugs or carpeting over the hardwood. But, not us.

Anyway, our loudspeakers previously were sitting on this carpet. Two really pointy cones in the front of each speaker poked through the carpet and probably the surface of the plywood. A spike did the same in the rear of each loudspeaker.

Based on a comment from the loudspeaker designer, we tried adding a granite support under each loudspeaker. This support is slightly larger in footprint than the speaker itself and consists of two standard 3 cm thick pieces glued together to become, ahh, 6 cm thick. These platforms weigh in at around 60 pounds each and were pretty inexpensive at the local countertop fabrication shop.

Two other details.

One was that we are using small metal "shoes" under each cone and spike so that the granite doesn't get damaged and so the speaker doesn't slide around on the hard granite, probably making terrible noise on the way.

The other is that although the speakers are sitting in the same X-Y positions in the room, they obviously moved 6 cm in the Z axis. So, the spike in the rear of each loudspeaker was adjusted so the tilt put the listener on the same vertical axis position as before. This was carefully measured using a laser measuring device, before and after. The left-right tilt was also checked.

Well, guess what? The designer was right. The sound tightened up all around and became clearer. Imagine that - the designer knows exactly what he is doing!

There could be lots of reasons for this. The woofers et al are obviously 6 cm higher, so they could be exciting the room differently. The speaker could be more rigid relative to the listener than before. The overall resonant structure could be changed. Or, d) all of the above. Or, e)...

I didn't bother to measure before and after, because frankly I didn't expect a lot of difference. But, it was a cheap experiment as audio stuff goes, so, why not? It's easy enough to reverse out if we wanted to. But, we don't.

The thing is, my empirical results seem to be at odds with what Mr. Katz found. In technical terms, WTF?

The only other observation I will offer is that we tried a couple different kinds of shoes under the cones and spikes. One was made from titanium, with a fairly hard thin rubber like backing backing beneath. The other, from the loudspeaker manufacturer, appears to be made from stainless steel and has a felt backing. The sizes are almost identical. Guess what: They sound different! Neither is bad, but the difference is there. I could imagine where some people would prefer one over the other, but we preferred the version from the loudspeaker manufacturer. Incidentally, the two are priced almost the same. No expectation bias based on "more expensive is better" here. Perhaps this throws some weight to the idea that the resonant structure change is the big thing, but it's hard to separate the variables accurately. So, I don't know. I'm not looking to publish any papers. Typing this comment was work enough.

The other truly tangible advantage of a platform like this is that the loudspeakers are much easier to vacuum around now.

" The sound tightened up all around and became clearer." qtd CG

Submitted by Jack L on January 30, 2021 - 1:21pm

Bingo!

That's exactly the sonic improvement I got for my 2-way loudspeakers on steel tripod tipped with steel spikes enchoring onto the fully carpeted concrete floor.

For the wooden floor at yr home, the granite slabs you placed under yr spiked floorspeakers help to provide the needed rigid MASS to reduce the vibration of the woode floor below.

BTW, I did the same thing to one of my (heavy) tube power amps. I bolted 3 strong steel spikes at the amp chassis base plate & then placed it on a massy natural grey granite block 4" thick which is "floated" on the concrete floor via 4 rubbber cushion pads, under my solid hardwood audio stand. Mass + isolation !!

This massy tweak does improve the sound of the power amp noticeably !

Needless to say, ALL other components are placed on my DIYed solid hardwood audio stand via either steel spikes or acoustical tiptoes.

Excepting my 2 turntables, which are installed on their DIYed discrete floor stands. Totally isolated from the main audio stand. I do not allow my TTs shared the same support with my main audio rig to minimize undue vibration "cross-talk".

Going thru such complex tweaks, am I a nut or what ??

Listening is believing

Jack L

Newton

Submitted by Varejao17 on December 15, 2020 - 6:27am

FWIW, Newton-1 (assuming you mean the First Law of Motion) is (more or less): objects at rest remain at rest, and objects in motion remain in motion at the same direction and speed, unless acted upon by an outside force. I think you meant Newton-3: Every action creates an equal and opposite reaction.

You'd never know it, but

Submitted by Jim Austin on December 15, 2020 - 10:22am

I do, honestly, have a PhD in physics. It's really embarrassing to make mistakes on stuff like that that most people learn in middle school. I'll just say that it has been a long, long time since I learned about such things, so I need to learn to be more careful. Thanks for the note, and apologies for the error.

Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile

No worries...

Submitted by Varejao17 on December 15, 2020 - 10:24am

...sorry that I came across as a pedant about it. :-)

"Newton's third law: Action = Reactiion"

Submitted by Jack L on January 25, 2021 - 7:00pm

When the loudspeaker drivers pump air in & out the enclosure, the kinetic energy thus generated sends the loudspeaker enclosure panels & its support (floor stand, footings etc) vibrating.

So reduce such induced vibration to minimum, the kenetic energy has to be dissipated ASAP by directing it out of the loudspeaker/stand into the floor.

Kenetic energy = mass x its velocity square. So by increasing the total mass of the vibrating object- loudspeaker system + floor stand/footings, the vibrating velocity will be reduced - effectivly reducing the virbration of loudspeaker system as a whole.

How to increase its effective mass? One effective way is to add spikes at the bottom of the floor stand/footings, pointing downward making PIN contact with the floor !!! Pin contact will increase the overall effective mass of the loudspeaker system subtantially than without the spikes pin contacts.

So the vibration velocity of the entire systm is substantially reduced.

By Newton's 3rd Law, the reaction kenetic energy will reverse back up to the loudspeaker system via the spikes／stand, but in a much reduced amplitude as much of the vibration energy sent down from the loudspeaker system is already dissipated in the floor.

To stop the substantially reduced reaction kenetic energy go back up to the loudspeaker, I would add isolation rubber pads sandwiched between the top of the floor stand & the base of the enclosure.

That's what I've done for my KEF 2-way standspeakers many years back. Such spikes+isolation pads installation indeed balance out the overall tonal balance of my KEFs.

Listening is believing

Jack L

Bob's research, continued

Submitted by bobkatz on December 16, 2020 - 4:48am

I'm very impressed by Jim Austin's thorough study of my AES article. My journey to a peer-reviewed paper began many months before, when I put some specially-constructed EVP isolators under my 300 pound Dynaudio Evidence M5P speakers in my mastering room, Studio A. Unlike the wood planks in the second floor Studio B, this room has a concrete slab on the ground, covered by a thick carpet with matting. There are holes in the carpet under the speakers so the isolators rest on the concrete floor. My mentor in this is Norman Varney of A/V, manufacturer of the isolators, who points out that sound travels much faster through concrete than through air and thus the ear receives a double image that softens the focus of sound when speakers are mounted solidly to the concrete. I experienced a significant quieting and tightening of sound with the isolators than with the wood blocks I had previously placed under the speakers. The area between the back of the speakers and the front wall has quieted enormously.

But when I reported these improvements in various Forums, and showed my comparative measurements with Room EQ Wizard as well--- a couple of strong objectivists called foul, saying that since my measurements with the wood blocks were taken a month before the measurements with the isolators, they must be ruled invalid.

So when I had the opportunity to try again in a much smaller room with a wood floor and ~100 pound speakers, I did. However, I believe the evidence is even stronger and more consistent in Studio A. The room is larger, with solid block walls on 3 walls stereophonically symmetrically, and the back wall is double reinforced styrofoam with two Gypsum layers. I have published comparative waterfall measurements which are far more symmetrical from left to right and show similar improvements as illustrated in the left hand speaker of Studio B. The congruence circa 300 Hz in the two measurements is a testament to my care in reproducing microphone position and loudspeaker height, even though the two measurements were taken a month apart. So, once again I have objective evidence of the improvements gained with isolators under loudspeakers. Anyone who wishes to get the REW mdat files for either Studio with and without the isolators is welcome to contact me through my website, digido.com. Here's a link to a mini-article at my website with that report: https://www.digido.com/installing-dynaudio-m5p-loudspeakers-on-custom-isolators-from-av-room/

Enjoy!

Thanks.

Submitted by Jim Austin on December 16, 2020 - 7:43am

Bob, thank you for your kind words and your contribution to the conversation.

It's sometimes tempting to be disappointed by inconsistency in results--but inconsistency can be very interesting. Of course it would be good to have a firm understanding of what's happening, but I am most intrigued by the complexity--specifically, the difference in behavior between the two loudspeakers placed symmetrically in a (dimensionally) symmetric room. I could mention several measurements, but the waterfall plots, to me, tell the story most clearly (figs.22-25 in the AES paper). There is an obvious reduction in delayed energy in the left speaker between about 35 and 300Hz (figs 22 and 23). In the right speaker, it's difficult to discern any such improvement (figs 24 and 25).

One cannot say with any certainty what this difference is attributable to, but one likely possibility is the difference in the construction of the adjacent walls, as you point out in the article. Wouldn't it be interesting if you were able to correlate vibrations in the walls with the change in delayed energy in the left (but not right) speaker!

There are some well-known stories relating construction of performance spaces to structural factors--like the famous story of the stage at Carnegie Hall. If you don't know the story, check out the video below. The relevant discussion start after the 4-minute mark.

Jim Austin, Editor
Stereophile

Amazingly Useful and Interesting

Submitted by Sandy Gross on December 16, 2020 - 10:23am

I think that this research and article are very special. I am certainly a subjective kind of guy, but one who has a tremendous respect for measurements. The whole subject of loudspeaker physical support has been a rather hotly debated subject since it began in the mid/late 70s when Ivor from Linn suggested taking a cassettes case and using it, lengthwise, to couple (using mortite) the top back of a loudspeaker to the wall behind it to brace and minimize cabinet movement. Now how many people remember that? And in the ensuing years we have had all kinds of devices (Tiptoes, spikes of all sorts, Stillpoints, Iso-Pods, Isoacoustics, and all kinds of new ones at all kinds of price points): some stiff, some soft, some with all kinds of unique and not so unique technologies. And, in terms of their use with loudspeakers (I won't go into use with other gear) we have listened, heard all sorts of things and opined and reached all sorts of conclusions. Now, with thIs article and its measurements, (although it certainly does not cover all possibilities), we can clearly see that there are dramatic measurable differences with different kinds of coupling to the floor (and different results with different kinds of floors). My Goodness!!! So we were not hearing or imagining subtle nothings. Now, we are still faced with deciding, subjectively, what we prefer. And, of course, as a loudspeaker designer, this dramatically complicates the process. Kudos to Stereophile to help to open up in a measured objective way this whole subject. No, it is not snake oil or black magic!!!

Not Snake Oil

Submitted by tonykaz on December 16, 2020 - 11:40am

But it sure reads like it.

Should we consider our listening room variables as tuneable? I think we should. It's definitely DIY in a world where the Super expensive gear room is the most needy.

Little suspension footers are not the quick easy fix for a problem that is still not well or properly stated.

We should be reading about how to diagnose SoundQuality issues in our listening rooms, shouldn't we.

Probably Bob Katz is the only one that ever attempted to describe tuning a room as he has done in his Florida Location.

We've all had these same Room issues for all our decades of listening but we didn't have Kilowatt Amplifiers driving low impedance, low efficiency loudspeakers with an increased possibility for feedback loops from sensitive record players and Digital players playing Audiophile grade high dynamic range recordings featuring unprecedented transparency.

Personally, I've set-up my listening rooms as semi-anechoic chambers, wall bounces loosing 9db, ambient SPL of 35db & remotely located signal sourcing.

All the above seems like Acoustical Engineering problem stating, trial & error, solution building with the final product being a well designed Music Review Studio.

Copy Bob Katz! or make a hobby out of Diy gizmo devices and hope to get a little lucky.

Headphones remain the super efficient solution and diagnostic tool to evaluate room performances.

Tony in Venice sorting thru >>>)))))'> oils

"We've all had these same Room issues for all our decades

Submitted by Jack L on January 31, 2021 - 11:13am

....... of listening" quoted Tonykaz.

Hi Tony.

"Snake Oil" ????!!!

First off, tweaking like spikes or tiptoes installed under an audio equipment does produce different sound to many critical ears, including mine, period. Better or worse is another story.

I got ALL my components suspended on tiptoes or spikes & I DO find the music is noticeably improved in terms of transparency, stabilized imaging & overall soundstaging even at very high volumes.

Back to your concern about "Room issues", sorry I have to disagree to your too generalized across-the-board statement: "We've ALL..." !

I must be a very lucky audio fan. I've not yet encountered "Room issues" serious enough to affect my nearly daily music enjoyment on LPs spinning on my 2 turntables, where acoustical feedback should be the worse "room issue" !!!!!!

As an electronics handyman, I got my 700sq.ft audio den installed down my house concrete basement without hiring an acoustical consultant.

Pretty standard interior budgeted finish: wall-to-wall cushioned carpet with large thick area rug, wood wall panels supported by wood stud frameworks with voids filled with fiberglass quilts, wall-to-wall suspended ceiling system with gypsum tiles covering the wood structure of the main floor.

Yet even at up to 95dB measured with my digital sound level meter (C weighting: -5dB@20Hz & @20KHz) for heavy music like Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture & the like, the imaging & soundstaging remain same sharpness, & the tonal balance maintains, no apparent disturbance by the room acoustics at all.

Music to me like life & death. I don't mind fix any acoustic issues at all cost with the easy money I've been getting from the money markets.

Understood why you've raised the room acoustic issues here given you are an audio vendor.

Listening is believing

Jack L

Hello Mr. Jack L,

Submitted by tonykaz on January 31, 2021 - 12:21pm

Thank you for writing back on this.

I can sort-of agree that spikes & tiptoes can make a profound difference. Jim Theil would demonstrate with and without Spikes on his CS3 Loudspeakers, he did it for me, a Dealer, and I did it for my customers. My customers would DIY a range of tweaks in this regard. Everything would/could affect/effect Sound Quality.

The happy thing about pointed feet Is the ultra low price.

If you let me into your house with two little red&blue bottles of Cramolin from Monster Cable, then let me treat all your interconnect connections,,,, you will be pleasantly surprised with the revealed transparency your system now exhibits.

Hmm, you have a Concrete Bunker.

700 sq.ft. -- does that suggest 5,000 cubic feet ? All of it dampened on 5 of 6 sides ! Playing vinyl above 50 hz. but below 100 db. You have a significant amount of Volume for your Loudspeaker's Drivers to compress in what amounts to an acoustically dead or semi-dead room.

Your system description reads like you step into an acoustically weightless nirvana. Your home sits above the proverbial Desert Island. Lucky you, you seem to have won Life's Lottery.

Put in a couple of big Active Sub-woffers and you could rattle the dishes in the Kitchen- yikes !

Do you have any opinions on any of the R2R DACs ?

Tony in Venice Florida

" little red&blue bottles of Cramolin .." quoted tonykaz

Submitted by Jack L on February 2, 2021 - 2:50pm

Cramolin is no strangers & was available in the stores over 20 years back.
To me, it is a contact cleaner. Yet to spend $400 for such a "brandname" contact spray is way way too much for average consumers,IMO. I can pick up a 400ml contact spray can for a few bucks from an electronics store nearby.

My cheapskate & yet effective way to maintain proper audio cable connection, as an audio handyman, is to plug & unplug a few times the cable connectors, say once every 3 months or so. Why spend any money on it ?

Frankly, I don't feel comfortable to get my audios messed up by chemicals. This includes cleansing of my tons of LPs - 100% pure ionized distilled water (0ppm) only. No additional chemicals allowed.

That said, when contact noise heard on turning the volume control or selector switch, contact spray is needed for sure.

Any "Room issues" in my 5,600cuft basement den ?

Something I did not mention in my last post you. The 95dB(C) sound level
I measured with my 3 active subwoofers (L,R, L+R) ON, with their volume set to half or less. It is enough to rock the den with some heavy music, like Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture, one time sending my wife rushing down from upstairs to find out what was going on !!

Pretty balance sound with clean deep no-boom bass. Hi-5 from all my audio guests who attended.

Yea, I hit the acoustic jackpot !!!

Jack L

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Bob Katz on Loudspeaker Isolation