There is no question the Linn's are amazing but they are HORRIBLE to setup and tune in and the upgrade path is vicious. The power supply alone is more expensive than an RP8. This is my next upgrade and I am looking at tables in the $4K - $6K range and I personally am saying screw you to Linn. I currently have a Rega RP3 with an Exact 2 cartridge and a Vincent Audio Pho 8 phono stage.

I love Rega because it is exactly as you described, musical and involving for rock and jazz in particular. I find Clearaudio to be super precise and exceptional for classical but a little less engaging. I find VPI very involving but best for more modern music like hip hop but a great sounding tables, regardless.

For the money, for a super musical sound, I like a Planar 3 with an Exact2 cartridge and the external PSU. For about $2K, this is going to sound pretty amazing. I have owned tables with the Exact2 and Elys2 and there is no comparison. The bass is muddy on the Elys2. On a song like So What from Miles Davis, the opening of it sounds like crap with the Elys 2 but spectacular with the Exact2. The Exact2 delivers nice precise bass while maintaining the beautiful midrange that Rega is famous for.

I am looking at the Rega RP8/RP10 with their Alphetta2 cartridge, VPI Classic with cartridge TBD and a McIntosh MT5 which comes with a Sumiko Bluepoint which is made by Clearaudio and looks spectacular.

The phono stage is equally important. Depending on your integrated amp or preamp, there is lots of choice. Balanced vs. unbalanced circuitry can matter or if you opt for tube based gear it matters much less. What kind of amp or preamp are you looking at?

In another thread I had a conversation with an LP12 owner and bluntly, nothing is going to sound quite like a Linn, particularly one that has been upgraded. Compared to one that hasn't, an RP8 ought to deliver but again this assumes your system is transparent enough to hear the difference. That being said, the other user with the upgraded Linn has his attached to D'Agostino Equipment through Wilson Audio speakers...literally like $100K in hardware. You will hear the nuance at that level. No Question. With lower end equipment, who knows until you sit down and listen.

If you were to go with the Linn LP12 at what $2620 for the table only, say an RB808 Tonearm for $1295 and that Koetsu Cartridge at $2495 you are looking at $6410. In that price range you have the McIntosh MT5, The Rega RP10 fitted with the Alphetta with a higher end tonearm or the VPI Prime with that same Koetsu cartridge. These would all be pretty fantastic tables though you are buying a new table if you want to upgrade the Mc, Rega or VPI...you have the path if it is appealing with the Linn.

Alternatively, dipping your toes back into the water with something like a Planar 3 with an Exact2 might be a nice foray back in. It would cost you $1500 and you could probably raise $1000 in the used market if you want to move on from it. That Koetsu cartrdge is special and is not going to be easily replicatable. You could try a Dynavector 10x5 or really ask the guys at Needledoctor what is going to be a junior Koetsu. They would know best.

Hardware to some extent should be a function of the speakers you opt for, the size of your room and what level of resolution you are trying to achieve. If you are going to spend $6500 or much more on a turntable, I probably wouldn't pair it with a $1500 integrated amp and expect to get the most out of it.

Just like if you are going to go with a $6500 table, I probably wouldn't get an entry level pair of Elac Speakers. As great as they are, they won't be revealing enough to deliver the resolution you will get from a table like that Linn.

I would pick the level of system you want (Planar 3 or Linn) and then decide on appropriate speakers. Do they need to be bookshelf/standmounts of floorstanders/towers? What sound profile do you like out of a pair of speakers? How loud do you listen? Once you settle on the speakers, then pick the appropriate amp to drive them and pick your table.

This will help eliminate potential buyers remorse and get you a truly spectacular system that will live up to your expectations.

SystemShock wrote:

Hi, I'm a former audiophile coming back to high-end-ish audio after a 25 year absence. I used to have a rather nice Linn/Musical Fidelity/Spica system back in the late '80s/early '90s, 'til I foolishly sold it in a fit of pique over digital taking over (plus needing some money at the time). :(

But now, analog's come back! And I miss my old system and how my music *used* to sound, i.e. awesome and involving. So I want to get back into it, starting with getting the front-end right (turntable). I used to have a Linn Sondek/Basik tonearm/Grado MM cartridge combo. Kind of a lower-end Sondek, but it sounded great to me, warm and musical. What to get now to recreate that?

I did read up on the choices. And, it's confusing. To me, anyway.

What do you guys think, what's the best way to attack this? You kinda see where I'm coming from.

I suggest that you get a Music Hall MMF-7.3 turntable, which is excellent and only $1395 without a cartridge. For 10 times as much you can get a turntable that is a tiny bit better, but it is very very good and few people would not love it. One important feature is that the motor is totally physically isolated from the turntable (only connected by a very small soft belt).

I have the 7.1, and it is wonderful, using a Benz Micro Ace cartridge, which ran me around $500. (the current similar one is the Benz Micro Gold).

There are many good cartridges available in the $300-600 range which will work nicely with it and make some excellent sound for you. I think it will be what you want.

SystemShock wrote:

bierfeldt wrote:

For the money, for a super musical sound, I like a Planar 3 with an Exact2 cartridge and the external PSU. For about $2K, this is going to sound pretty amazing. I have owned tables with the Exact2 and Elys2 and there is no comparison. The bass is muddy on the Elys2. On a song like So What from Miles Davis, the opening of it sounds like crap with the Elys 2 but spectacular with the Exact2. The Exact2 delivers nice precise bass while maintaining the beautiful midrange that Rega is famous for.

I am looking at the Rega RP8/RP10 with their Alphetta2 cartridge, VPI Classic with cartridge TBD and a McIntosh MT5 which comes with a Sumiko Bluepoint which is made by Clearaudio and looks spectacular.

The phono stage is equally important. Depending on your integrated amp or preamp, there is lots of choice. Balanced vs. unbalanced circuitry can matter or if you opt for tube based gear it matters much less. What kind of amp or preamp are you looking at?

Thanks for the reply, Bierfeldt. Yes, quality-wise, I think something like the Rega Planar 3 w/PSU upgrade and a high-quality MM cartridge is sort of my baseline. I want something at least as good as that, and of course, musical.

But I'm still open to spending Linn Magik money if there's something out there that beats the Linn – or on a Magik, if nothing does. Right now, I'm trying to hunt down any Michell dealers left out here in California... unlike Linn, their prices don't seem to have 'exploded' in the intervening years.

Far as amps go, I'm partial to Musical Fidelity, since I had that back in the day (one of those pure-class-A 20-watt A1 integrated amps... really nice-sounding, yet cheap). But I'm open to any of a bunch of other brands I've heard good things about lately, or back in the day... Croft, Arcam, Naim, NAD, Cambridge Audio, Creek. Probably want an integrated, unless there's a killshot-amazing pair of separates out there for the money.

Far as carts go, best cart I ever heard was a Koetsu Black Gold LIne... simply unbelievable. I realize that no MM and precious few MCs will ever come even near that cart in sound quality, but I mention it because that's the *kind* of sound I like.

Ah, hell and damn. There's a chance I may go marching down Linn's hideous upgrade path just the same, since a 'super table' plus 'super arm' plus Koetsu cart would be so seductive. But the price is high. Kinda like the gorgeous woman who invites you back to her room, and you wake up a few hours later sitting in an ice-bath with a kidney missing, =(

SystemShock wrote:

Hi, I'm a former audiophile coming back to high-end-ish audio after a 25 year absence. I used to have a rather nice Linn/Musical Fidelity/Spica system back in the late '80s/early '90s, 'til I foolishly sold it in a fit of pique over digital taking over (plus needing some money at the time). :(

But now, analog's come back! And I miss my old system and how my music *used* to sound, i.e. awesome and involving. So I want to get back into it, starting with getting the front-end right (turntable). I used to have a Linn Sondek/Basik tonearm/Grado MM cartridge combo. Kind of a lower-end Sondek, but it sounded great to me, warm and musical. What to get now to recreate that?

What do you guys think, what's the best way to attack this? You kinda see where I'm coming from.

The amplifier that I will recommend to you is the Musical Fidelity M6si integrated amplifier, which is wonderful-sounding and amazingly cheap, at only $2995. I think it competes with others costing 2 to 3 times as much.

It is essentially a combining of the former M6 preamp and M6PRX power amplifier, which would have cost around $7000 separately, and also an excellent phono preamp, which is included.

It is an amazing deal, and sounds fantastic. It also has enough power to drive almost any speakers you can come up with (around 300 Watts per channel at 4 ohms).

I personally paid $3500 for the M6PRX power amp alone, and love it. I already had a Audio Research LS26 preamp, which is amazing, but now costs $7000.

Speakers have come a LONG way since the 90s. I feel like they have come further and changed more than anything I was looking at in the 90s. I can't tell you what speakers you are going to like but I can suggest a range to listen too.

I am specifically going to suggest a bunch of brands. The goal is to give you a taste of speakers that will range in price from $1000 to ~$20K. If you want to go all in with a Linn Magik, you may as well hear it the right way.

One thing you want to evaluate is if you like stand mount vs. tower speakers. They throw off a different soundstage. I personally like stand mounts with a pair of subwoofers because I think they are easier to setup. Often times, in a normal room the optimal place for bass reproduction is different than that of mid and upper frequencies. Treatment in room can correct this. One subwoofer is fine, two is spectacular.

You are going to want to evaluate a few different tweeter and speaker designs. You have your standard, soft (usually silk) dome tweeter and then there are a variety of hard designs. B&W has a diamond tweeter while Magico and a few others use Berylium. Electrostatic and ribbons are my personal preference but again, what I like you may loathe. Part of the fun of this so just because I say something is great or the angry, jackass salesperson you are almost certain to run into at the audio store says its great, it is always personal preference.

Speaker Brand List -
Scansonic & Raidho - Scansonic is Denmark based Raidho's entry point line and a pretty spectacular speaker. Very musical with a great soundstage. They are known for an amazing ribbon tweeter which I personally think is the best tweeter in the world. I am literally waiting for a pair of Raidho X-1s to be delivered today. Scansonic is ~$2000 - $10,000 price range and they like Class A power and will do well with tube or solid state gear. Raidho is incredible and worth considering as a pair with a Linn Magik, ranging from about $6500 to $225K.

B&W CM and 8XX D3 - These will range from ~$1600 to $25K. This is arguably the most successful hi end speaker company over the last 20 or so years. They are definitely the best known. People tend to love them or hate them and the CM line being available at Best Buy has greatly increased the number of haters. A forward speaker that can inch toward brightness but offer spectacular resolution. It can require care to get the soundstage just right. My favorite speakers from them are the CM5, CM9 and the 802 D3. They work best when driven by their sister gear, Rotel and Classe. Not my favorite but a must listen.

Revel Concerta2, Performa3 and Ultima lines - Revel is one of Harman Audio's higher end product lines. They also own JBL and Infinity though the latter has been largely killed off as a home speaker company despite its legacy as an elite speaker. Sound profile is slightly forward of neutral with tons of detail yet I don't find them at all fatiguing. I am listening to a pair of Performa3 M105s as I type this. These are priced competitively. The Concerta2 is priced in line with B&Ws 6xx line, Performa3 is in line with B&Ws CM line and the Ultima's compete with the 8XX D3 line. Worth a listen as they are very musical.

Kef LS50 for standmouts, Q for Value, R for Premium, Reference for Elite. Kef's LS50 at $1500 are the darlings of the audio world at the moment. A great sounding, dead neutral stand mount that looks great. Very musical. Small issue is they are only good for small and medium rooms, like a lot of power and can't be turned up to 11. I frankly don't like the rast of Kefs line but a lot of people do. I find them forward with a slightly grainy quality to the sound like B&Ws 600 series. The Reference line is excepted from this but it rages from $8K to $19K.

Monitor Audio's Silver, Gold and Platinum Line - MA Silver is easy to drive, dead neutral and an obscene value for what you get. Can be paired with tube or solid state gear. The silvers are a bit less musical than the golds but are quite a bit less expensive. Silver range from $900 to $2K, Golds from $1800 to $5500 and I forget the range on the platinum but they aren't cheap. Well worth the listen though and if you decide to go value, a very safe choice.

PSB Imagine Line - Range from like $1200 I think for the stand mounts to $7500 for the flagship. There $3500 imagine T2s are unbelievable. Neutral, very detailed and very musical. They focus on value so they tend to be simple and they will punch above there weight at every price point. Might have delivered the best production of Roger Water's Amused to Death I have ever heard paired with Ayre Acoustics gear. They can be a pain in the butt to setup as they can be a bit bass heavy out of the box and require a lot of care and experimentation with the port bungs and placement.

Wharfedale - The Jade line is great and the Diamond line is generally considered one of the best value speakers. I find them dark but musical. Range from like $300 to $5000, worth a listen.

Dynaudio Excite and Contours - Dynaudio is the company that audio purists tend to like very much at the lower end. $1200 to like $5K for the Excites and like $3800 and I don't recall where the contours cap out. Dead neutral and the speaker that if you wanted to be able to hear the difference a steinway and yamaha piano, you could probably tell. They try to achieve completely uncolored sound. Lots of people love them, others feel they are missing a certain something. I find them revealing but blah.

Vandersteen - as you mentioned above. A fine speaker and commsysman I think has the Treo's I have never heard these as my only dealer in the area is in the middle of nowhere NJ. The Treo's and above get RAVE reviews, not a lot of love below that. Not sure why. again, never heard them.

Magneplanar - These guys make electrostatic panels. They are large but very special sounding speakers. If you have the room and the right power amp, these things can be unbelievable. They like true class A power and function at a low impedance. It isn't about the absolute quantity of power but more that the amp can thrive at 2 ohms.

Sonus Faber - Very colored but very musical sound. Huge range to pricing across a variety of lines but an amazing speaker. Not everyones cup of tea. They are the most colored on here but also the most unique. Really wonderful, engaging and musical. My gut tells me you might really love these.

Other brands to look for -

Wilson Audio - starts at $16K. These are one of the true benchmark speakers. Effortless soundstage. They deliver the neutrality of the Dynaudio's but with musicality.

Magico - Extruded Aluminum speakers with Berylium tweeters. Also start at $16K. Slightly more colored sound but super musical and they completely vanish. I literally had to ask the dealer what speaker was playing.

Verity - Finns are the entry point at like $6800 - $7200 depending on the finish. Super musical and very efficient. Can be driven with anything. The Finns look like the Vandersteen Treo's. I loved them and they were the runner up to the Raidho's at there price point for me.

Acoustic Zen - Adagio's are the entry line. Towers are $4300 and a great sounding, good looking speaker. Hard to drive and they need 200w or so to open up but if driven properly, are what you want to look for.

Endeavor - The E-3s are a great sounding Tower. I like them and at $8K are worth serious consideration if you can deal with how large they are

Devore - Like Sonus Faber, very colored sound but really rich and musical. Absolutely worth a listen. Gotta respect what they do even if you don't like them. These are absurdly easy to drive and again, I think based on what you have said thus far, you might love them.

For hardware -

The speaker will dictate what hardware you get potentially but I would check out the following brands -

Tubes tend to be warmer with a bit of a rolled off high end. Class D's tend to be forward and can inch into brightness from the wrong manufacturer. Solid states can range from very warm (Rega) to very forward (Krell). Most are about neutral to slightly forward.

Class D
Rogue Audio - they have a unique Tube D series of amps that are a hybrid Class D with a tube based input stage. These are truly great sounding amps. The Sphinx at $1400 is an awesome integrated. I have its big brother, the Hydra as the power amp in my system. Sound profile is slightly forward. Their tube gear sounds good but you will burn through tubes faster than you would probably like. The Cronus Magnum sounds incredible but you see a lot of them in the resale market.

Tube Class A
I like Manley & PrimaLuna - PrimaLuna is partially owned by Kevin Deal who runs Upscale Audio down in SoCal. They make some great sounding, well made, reasonably priced tube gear. For some reason I am thinking like $2300 to $4800 depending on the model and power level.

Manley Labs also offer some great equipment and that sounds incredible. Not as inexpensive but fabulous equipment. You won't burn through tubes as quickly as the Rogues do. Exact model and power level vary widely.

Mystere - a European company that has been around for a while and makes darn good tube gear but has a limited footprint in the US. Worth a listen.

Solid State -
For Value I like Musical Fidelity, the M3 ($1500), M5 ($2000) and M6 ($3000) are all great values at the respective price points for integrated amps. Slightly forward of neutral but a lot of detail. Damn good equipment. A few years ago Musical Fidelity switched distributors and they went from being exclusively dealer based to selling on line. This angered many dealers and as a result they can be tougher to find on display.

Parasound Halo Integrated - I find them to be a very good sound but just short of extraordinary sounding amps. The JC lines is a bit different but so is the price. Some people love this. Again, I find them less musical. Paired with a lively speaker like Sonus Faber or Devore, it could work really well. Paired with Dynaudio's...I would not love it. Again, personal taste.

Ayre Acoustics - this is quite a bit higher end. The entry point is a $4k, 60w integrated. Pure Class A, they do things a bit differently and the sound shows. People always rave about them having the blackest blacks, etc... I have a 5 series preamp in my system. Dead neutral with a huge soundstage. If you go higher end, they are seriously worth considering.

There are tons of others. Creek, Naim, Hegel, Marantz, Peachtree, PS Audio, Rotel, Classe, etc... Most make great gear. I happen to also really like Marantz and Peachtree. There is just so much, particularly for hardware I figured I would touch on a few favorites.

I know this is a lot but given that you are probably looking at a budget range of $5K to $50K, putting in the time listening to as many of these as you can is wise. Find out what you really like and then, once you have heard as many as you can, then decide. I would take your own music, a notebook to take notes on what you hear and listen to anything else the dealer has to offer. Take your time and you will find something that you will really be happy with.

Music Hall TT, eh? Can't say I'm at all familiar with the brand, or how it sounds (musical? analytical? somewhere in between?), but if you vouch for it and there's a dealer near me, I'll check it out.

Thanks for your help. This is a good forum. :)[/quote]

I don't know about local dealers.

I got mine from Audio Advisor, and Needle Doctor and other online companies carry them.

Of course Audio Advisor gives you 30 days to return anything for a full refund, so it is easy to audition one at home.

Book an appointment with them and ask them when they won't expect to be busy. Most likely this will be a week day during normal business hours.

I would also be upfront about the fact that you are reengaging in this hobby and want to listen to a spectrum to decide what you think is worth it.

It will give them a chance to setup in advance and I would go in with a set of tracks planned for screening. I take in 5 to 7 CDs with the intent of testing the limits of the speakers in different ways. I usually start of with an ultra bright track like Only the Young from Journey that if I can tolerate it, then the speaker is in the game. I Then move on to something subtle like So What from Miles Davis. In a Sentimental Mood from Duke Elington and John Coltrane for bass. Then a live track like Don't Give up from Peter Gabriel off Secret World Live which doubles as it also has great female vocals. Then classical to listen to separation of string. I like Prokofiev for this. There are a few Bernstein Conducted recordings that are spectacular. Then Three Wishes from Roger Waters off Amused to Death to test bass and if I get to Run to the Hills from Iron Maiden I am clearly in love with the speaker and it is time to let the sales people have their store back.

Pick your series of tracks and if you don't like the sound at any point, cut off the demo and move on. I stop 50% of all demo's within the first 5 seconds of Only the Young. If the speaker is going to be too bright for me, why bother listening further.

Musical Fidelity is terrible about publishing specs on its ability to handle lower impedance speakers. They tell wattage into 8 ohms only and maggies have a variable impedance as low as like 3 ohms. I am hyper sensitive on this because first speakers (Infinity Kappa 8.1s) had a variable impedance as low as 1.7 or 1.8 ohms and my two power amps (I bi-amped) fell well short of being able to handle it. It may be fine but good luck determining that from published materials. If you opt for this amp I would buy it from a place that has a 30 or 60 day money back guarantee and if it can't handle the Maggie's (if that is what you go with), send it back.

The onboard phono stage in the M8 preamp was good. I listened to it when I was looking at preamps. I wouldn't say "Top-Notch." You can do better but you would need to spend a fair amount to do better. Based on everything I could glean at the time the M6 and M8 preamps had the same phono stage and they likely carried that into this unit. The dealer I went to said it is better than the V-90, not quite as good as the MX-VYNL. If you get a Planar 3 with a MC cartridge it will be fine.

[quote=SystemShock][quote=bierfeldt]In another thread I had a conversation with an LP12 owner and bluntly, nothing is going to sound quite like a Linn, particularly one that has been upgraded. Compared to one that hasn't, an RP8 ought to deliver but again this assumes your system is transparent enough to hear the difference. That being said, the other user with the upgraded Linn has his attached to D'Agostino Equipment through Wilson Audio speakers...literally like $100K in hardware. You will hear the nuance at that level. No Question. With lower end equipment, who knows until you sit down and listen.

Speakers? Back in the day, I loved the Spica TC-50 (owned a pair, was going to get a sub for them), the Spendor BC-1s, and the Vandersteen IIci's. All very nice speakers, and all great value for money.

But Spica is now out of business, and Spendor has apparently lost its mind and jacked the price of their modern BC-1 equivalent to literally 12x what it was in the '80s. Can afford it, but stuff like that makes me want to tell 'em to go pound sand. The updated Vandersteen 2CEs still look like a win. But perhaps are not enough for that third level of front end, again. So if I go that route, I've got a lot of listening to do.

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I have the Vandersteen Treo speakers, and love love love them. They run around $7000, which shouldn't break your budget. The only thing one needs to watch with them is that their sensitivity is on the low side, so you really want an amp that will give you at least 150 watts per channel.
They are a lot better than the 2CE, and also do not take up as much floor space. You can also choose from 7 or 8 different hardwood finishes. In the past I had the Model 2, and then for many years the Model 3A.
The Musical Fidelity M6si integrated amp would be perfect for them. It is only $2995.

I use the Musical Fidelity M6PRX power amp, which is a similar earlier model, with a Audio Research preamp.

MFs specs are vague but that doesn't mean they are hiding anything. I legitimately have no idea how their integrated amps handle an impedance that is below 4 ohms. Might be worth a search on a Maggie board to see there thoughts on Musical Fidelity for pairing. They are incredibly good sounding amps for the money and with most speakers they will be fine.

It is only when you get an impedance below 4 Ohms that I would worry and Magneplanar's are one of the few that I would worry about.

Wonderful amp/speaker combination, IMO. Detailed, and very dynamic.

Consider a pair of Dynaudio Contour 20s ($5000). I heard them when I bought my Excites. Superb loudspeakers, one of the best I have heard.

Let us know how your search goes. Definitely would like to hear updates on your progress.

Hi again, Comm, and thanks. Yep, I have no doubt that the Treos are absolutely awesome... Richard Vandersteen is a legit audio legend, and I really liked his IIci's back in the day.

But I don't know if they're going to be a good 'first' speaker for me, maybe more like a 'destination' speaker, as I might be on a bit of a journey to justify to myself spending that kind of money. I think a lot of ppl are in that same boat. :)

Given that, how would you personally characterize the 2CE's? I've never heard them, only the IIci's, and a long time ago. And what are the important differences between them and the Treos, for you?

Finally, how good a system would you think the 2CE's justify, and how good a system do you think the Treo's justify?

Sorry to inundate you with questions, but you and Bier and quite knowledgeable, and apparently two of the only guys here willing to impart advice and listening experiences.

(It's a bit weird, these forums should be busier than they are. Maybe it'd help if all the top of the page forum categories weren't commentary on three year old back issues of the magazine? Dunno.)[/quote]

The Treos are my "ultimate" speaker. My system has an Audio Research LS26 preamp ($6000) and the MF M6PRX amp, and the new Marantz SA-1 SACD player ($6999). I also have a OPPO SACD/ video player, and a turntable setup that cost around $3000 including cartridge and phono preamp (also Musical Fidelity).

The 2CE speakers are very good, but they do not quite have the ultimate degree of resolution of the Treos, or as much bass extension. Most would want a sub with them.

You could pair them with the MF M6si integrated amp, and that amp should be all you want ever, even if you went to the Treos or other more expensive speakers; it is that good. It also puts out over 300 watts per channel at 4 ohms which will run ANY speaker! I have seen independent lab results to that effect.

I also suggest the new OPPO UDP-205, which is coming out any day now, for around $1300 (?). It should give you 90% of what my expensive player gives; good enough that most people would never feel they are missing out on anything.

SystemShock wrote:

Well, my first update is way earlier than I thought it'd be. Just wanted to pass it on, plus a couple of questions...

My two questions:

1) What's all this 'balanced inputs/outputs/circuitry' I keep hearing about? (Brit voice: "What's all this?").

Reviews on, say, the Ayre integrated amps mention that it's basically a superhero in a 'balanced system' (a system where all components in the chain from source to speaker have balanced circuitry??), but is only 'good' otherwise? This is a new one on me, never heard the term back in the '80s or early '90s. Does it make that much of a difference?
Ah, high-end audio. You're always a journey.

A balanced cable has 3 conductors; two for the signal and a third for ground. This is a very superior arrangement for running a signal. It is the only kind you will find in a recording studio or venue, because it has an inherently super-high resistance to noise and signal interference. It is so good that in recording an orchestra, for example, cables can be run 100 feet or more from microphones (which output tiny signal voltages) to equipment with no noise or interference problems.

High quality professional gear uses only balanced connections, and it is the only thing I will use in all of my system connections. Top-quality audio gear provides balanced connections in most cases.

An unbalanced cable, which uses an RCA connector, has only 2 conductors. One carries one side of the signal current, and the other is sort of grounded, but not really; it is what is called a "floating" ground, because if you truly grounded both ends it would not be able to carry the return signal current, which it must do to complete the electrical circuit for the signal. One wire is not a circuit.

The unbalanced cable is really a mickey-mouse arrangement from an engineering standpoint, because having the outer "shield" conductor carry the return signal current while trying to act as a shield is stupid. The two functions are incompatible from an engineering standpoint. It makes the cable susceptible to all kinds of nasties, and this can lead to degraded sound quality.

I personally find it very frustrating that the home audio industry does not abandon the unbalanced system completely and go 100% balanced.

I use the Audio Research LS-26 preamp in my system (the current model is the nearly identical LS-27).

In addition to sound quality that is superb, it provides balanced inputs and outputs on all 7 channels, and also two balanced outputs.

It also has a ton of desirable features that give it amazing functionality and convenience.

There are few, if any, preamps that have comparable features.

I can't recommend it too highly for a top-quality high-end system.

Here is an article that technically explains the difference of Balanced vs. Unbalanced cables.

https://www.presonus.com/news/articles/balanced-unbalanced

In practice, results vary wildly. In my house, with my equipment balanced equipment radically reduces the 60hz hum I have dealt with in the past. Others have had not issue, especially with short wire runs.

Fully balanced circuits are less susceptible to noise and interference than unbalanced and I find them to be quieter. Ayre seems to be quietest of the quiet. Kind of like Vanguard for years was the lowest load of no-load mutual funds, Ayre is the quietest of very quiet equipment and will always perform best when the entire system is fully balanced. Musical Fidelity behaves exactly the same way and is at its best with fully balanced equipment.

Regarding Ayre Acoustics, I can't speak for the integrate amps but I will tell you that my preamp sounds spectacular despite not having any fully balanced equipment attached to it.

Ayre has that little 60w integrated for $4K which is a spectacular unit for the money. They also have a $13K integrated which is incredible but in that case, separates might be a better deal. If you can live with 4 inputs, the K-5xeMP preamp with a V-5xe power amp sounds INCREDIBLE for $10,350. I feel that my Rogue Hydra (with upgraded tubes) is delivering 90-95% the quality of sound I would get from the V-5xe for half the price. When I have a ton of cash lying around I will upgrade to an Ayre power amp but in the interim, I think my Rogue does a very admirable job.

Getting a fully balanced system is not as hard to do as you would think. You can get a spectacular, fully balanced phono stage from Musical Fidelity for $1000 and by its nature, turntables are balanced.

Then it comes down to picking out a Digital setup. There are three parts; DAC, Disc Player and Network Streamer that most people have these days. You can keep them separate or combine parts. Musical Fidelity, Simaudio Moon and Marantz all make spectacular, fully balanced units for DACs and/or disc players and you would send a digital signal from a streamer to that DAC or Disc Player most likely.

Regarding tonearms, Rega generally is perceived as making the best tonearms for the money by far. You will find any one of there arms will be rated as equal to those that are 3x as expensive. That being said, I have no idea how they work with Linn tables. I know a lot of dealers don't like Rega because they require them to carry the whole line (integrated amps, speakers, etc...) not just turntables. My dealer puts a ProJect arm on Linn tables and that is what I typically see. I am not sure if that is a Linn Recco, my dealer due to the fact that he handles Linn, ProJect and Clearaudio.

Dealer networks are thin. The Internet caused the fist round of shops to close, the last economic downturn pushed any that were on the edge out of business. Then, manufacturers like Musical Fidelity switched from exclusive dealer networks to on-line sales. This angered MANY dealers and is why they have a big dealer network and very dew display them. The reality is, it is a balance. Even McInstosh, Audio Research, Sonus Faber and Vandersteen moved a portion of their products to on-line sales and go into a Magnolia at Best Buy and you will see all the same brands along with B&W and Marantz.

SystemShock wrote:

PS– Checking all high-end dealers within a reasonable distance (which I should've done in the first place), looks like the turntable choices are as follows:

Linn
Rega
VPI
Clearaudio
SME
Pro-Ject

That's what we got 'round here.

So, the front-end will be one of those (still annoyed about no Michell though). Thanks again.

The Pro-Ject Classic is a nice turntable that is quite reasonably priced.

I own a Rega RP3 with exact2 which is nice. Lots of detail, low noise and precise bass, particularly by Rega standards.

I am not familiar with SME, the rest of these are great. Not saying SME isn't, I just don't know.

At each level, each one of these manufacturers make nice tables. They will each have a certain sound profile and will progressively get better as you rise in the range. If you pick the manufacturer that has the sound profile you like, then it is a matter of getting to your decided budget. There are no tables from any of those manufacturers I would avoid.

Good luck listening

VPI has shuffled there lineup and introduced new tables. There are a bunch of retailers that still have inventory of discontinued models. If you go to the website, the "production line" is what they are currently manufacturing. The current lineup has "Prime" in most of the names.

You will likely find that there is a fair amount of inventory out there for the Scout Jr, Scout and Classic. If you can get a deal on discontinued inventory of the Scout or the Classic, that would be awesome. I have not heard any of the Prime tables yet but since it is VPI I am sure they are great.

Also, each company to me has a distinct sound profile or "house sound." What you get as you rise in the line is generally a more refined sound. In some cases you get a HUGE step change like when you step up in quality of Rega Cartridges from the Elys2 to the Exact2 regarding bass but if you hear a Planar3 with an Elys2 and an RP6 with an Exact2, it will be obvious they are both Rega tables. The primary difference will be clarity at <80hz. The other improvements will be more subtle. Same will go with VPI, Clearaudio, etc....

Lots of good info here, I'm in a similar boat, building a system from scratch after dabbling in stereo and HT over the years. I have a music hall mmf 2.1 and I really enjoy it, pretty much entry-level and will be upgraded at some point, but man is vinyl addicting! What I wanted to contribute, is this: man is that Michell Gyrodec a hot looking piece of equipment. I'd have to imagine that paired up with a stack of Music Fidelity equipment powering some Vandersteen 2ce's would be VERY tough to beat for under 15k.
I'm dealing with lack of dealers too, so I came up with a plan to buy my top 2 amps from refundable sources and audition my top 2 speakers with these amps in person. In doing so, I'm planning on 1.) having some fun with it for a month 2.) accepted that I'm going to potentially eat some shipping costs. Maybe you can use a similar tact?
I found the Audio Alchemy DDP-1/DDA-1/PS-1 to be quite compelling, but just out of my reach. I'm going to do a shootout between the Schiit Ragnarok and the Nuprime IDA-8 amps and test them each with Revel Concerta2 M16 and the Magnepan .7
Me personally I like Music Hall, and I'd second the 7.3 and while there are SEXIER ways to spend 1.3k on a turntable I think your money goes further with Rega/Project/MH, but that's a feeling I get more so than anything founded in substance or fact... I'm kind rooting for you to get the Michell. Jump on a plane man! :)

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