It feels like the audiophile community keeps getting smaller and smaller largely due to the fact that audiophiles are seemingly an esoteric bunch and a huge number of people simply don't get it. like it or not, believe in them or not, tweaks like bowl resonators make the audiophile community seem odd. Like it or not, cracking open a case and modifying an expensive piece of equipment in a world where when you open the case, it voids the warranty makes audiophiles seem odd. Putting up accoustic treatments or buying large speakers makes audiophiles seem odd. Buying a CD Player, a streamer and a separate DAC, three objects that should be combined into one boxes reduce interference that casual listeners can't hear (and incidentally don't believe we can either) makes us seem odd.

The entire hobby cuts against the grain of what most people believe to be true about science and physics in the case of tweaks, what our wives are willing to let us do in the case of mods and room treatments and what is happening in all other areas of technology like flat screen TVs, tablets, etc...

Unless we can infect more people with our particular brands of psychosis or people's perceptions change radically, this hobby feels like it is doomed to remain obscure. The fact the three camps of audiophiles can't get along and there is infighting makes it even worse.

And finally, the pretention of the old school guys who think those of us who have been in this hobby for less than 30 years should keep our mouths shut till we get more listening experience smacks of an authoritarian parent scolding a curious child. If I hadn't been involved in this hobby for 20 years and am willing to admit that this is a moderately harmless (certainly better than my whisky collection) outlet for my neuroses, I would probably move on and choose a more mainstream outlet to obsess over.

The most pressing issue for the TAS & Stereophile audiophiles is that they have removed themselves from the mainstream of the audiophile hobby. When this particular camp moved to discrete and raised the prices without a method to get good sound they gave birth to an audiophile schooling that didn't know how to include the "whole" system in the process of getting good sound.

If you step back and explore the mainstream of audio you will find that the audiophile hobby is alive and well, and actually thriving. Look up forums on the topic of tweaking & tuning and you will find tons of different camps that go beyond "stock" and only "plug & play". These camps (including TuneLand) didn't leave the hobby, we just moved on from the starting point of component buying only. We look at buying forums (TAS & Stereophile along with other component reviewing mags and forums) as the place to look at new components. How often do you see these mags & forums go back and review products that are 10 years old for example? The "new" purchase story is far different than the audiophile mainstreet. Why do you not see alot of folks coming up here and posting? Simple, as listeners move from the excitement of buying into high end audio, they (some fast some slow) out grow the collecting hobby, and move on to the listening hobby. Trading out components and the basics is just the beginning. It's again exciting to see all things new, but a wise listener knows that a 5 year old capacitor out performs a brand new one. He or she understands the sound of a new component vs an aged signal pathway. They understand the difference between black space between instruments and hearing the real stage, space and size.

Quite frankly when most seriously schooled audiophiles come to a sight of beginners who aren't involved in the hobby as a whole, they don't see anything to hold their interest more than visiting what's new. There are many collectors of equipment that never break out of the cycle that the sellers are selling, but we shouldn't think this is the hobby of being an audiophile. It's merely the starting point before listeners advance to the actual methods of listening. In other words, the people who say "we question tweaking & tuning" are still back in the world of not understanding what recordings are and how they work in playback mode. The rest of us have moved from homeroom and on to audio studies.

Spend a little time reading other types of audio forums that specialize and see the difference between the component only forums and the listener forums. Big difference!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

For me the advent and domination of digital audio has ruined the hobby. I'm not saying digital doesn't sound good. It does. But it changed this hobby for us old guys in a way that removed all the magic, somehow. 40 years ago I loved my gear; turntables, tonearms, power amps, speakers, all of it. Every change you made made a difference. It was the coolest thing in my life. Digital somehow reduced everything to a common denominator that doesn't offer the same satisfaction at all. I'm only speaking for myself here, and I realize some here don't agree. There's just something lacking for me about feeding a CD into a player. The old analog days were like having a real live woman, and the new digital audio is like having a 3-dimensional holographic virtual-reality woman.She's perfect, visually superior to the flesh and blood predecessor, but just not the same. I'm not saying digital isn't good sound. Just that it's different, somehow.

I would also like to add the fact that the youth of today are simply an iPod/playlist generation. If the source sounds ok on a tiny set of in ear buds then they are fine with it. I know this to be true because my 20 year old son is like that. I was able to finally get him to sit down with me for an hour or two of critical listening just the other day. We went over dynamic range, mastering and the recording itself which was an "ear" opener for him. I feel somewhat victorious as at the end of our listening my son said to me "thanks for ruining a bunch of music for me Dad" lol!

I wouldn't call it pretention. It's just that it's a bigger hobby than the high end audio camp has been talking about, or is wanting to talk about, for whatever reason who knows. If we all read back through the comments, we will see that the high end audiophile questions or doesn't understand some of the most important parts of the industry. When those of us "do" come up and talk about these issues folks get mad. That being the case why would the more well rounded audiophiles want to come up?

We're not trying to put anyone down, just the opposite. We gladly invite others to take the next steps in advanced listening. Why that would be offensive makes no sense. It's simply music lovers who come here thinking these pages should have more meat on the bones, and when someone comes with that meat or makes the suggestion to get deeper, the ones who haven't taken these steps yet freak. They don't say "tell me more" they freak out.

some things just make no sense

What do you listen to when your playing your music? Your room! However if you read the posts here, it doesn't even get past moving the speakers around. Don't get defensive just think about it a second. You buy a race car and never take it on the road?

Of course audiophiles who never learn how to tune a CDP will find them boring, but the part we don't get is when people claiming to be in the know never even try it. To us, we wonder how someone can be in this hobby 20 or even 5 years and not know that audio systems are tunable. People will come up here and give advice without even having an in-room system, or their system is sitting against a wall in their living room.

Go back and read TAS, Stereophile and the other rags back around 90-97. You will not read one issue that did not have RoomTune in them. I haven't looked but I doubt if there have been many issues that have come out since then that weren't using RoomTune somewhere in the issue or a knock off of or competitor. However I come here to share the good news and am attacked for it, are you serious?

I bring up RoomTune because that's me, but how many designs and designers have come along to help with something as basic as the room and you hardly ever see someone giving advice starting with the most important factors that kick this hobby off for folks. You got your fellow listeners out there spending money hand over fist because they can't find the right combo and you don't even ask them about where they are putting that system. Does that make any sense to you guys? You don't know that systems are tunable and that their room is what they are hearing, yet you tell them what to buy component and speaker wise. Is it mean for me or any other audiophile to question the legit-ness here?

And here's the proof in what I'm saying. No-one's here guys. This is the stereophile forum and noone is here referencing music and sharing how they tune their systems. There's more people on reel 2 reel forums, and car audio forums than stereophile, "stereophile folks"! There are more people setting up serious listening system that never look at these pages any more.

It's not pretention my friends, it's reality. When this forum flames the experts and a little more experienced folks along the way, this is what you get. This forum should be hopping, and should have open arms for all the camps. I get great sound from CD's, but when I shared this, instead of the question how, I was attacked. Does that make sense to you guys? It doesn't to the readers. The real audiophile readers come here not to hear someone say they have 300 CD's and only 10 of them sound good, or a guy who uses portable cassette tape players giving them advice on dynamic ranges. They come here to hang out and fellowship with real audiophiles, and audiophiles at all levels. They come here for success stories and would like to share theirs or ask how they can make improvements.

Honestly this forum works for me cause I get many emails asking for help with their sound. They don't email me to challenge me, or posture. They get a hold of me cause they're hungry for music. They want to sit there and enjoy every piece of music they pick up, and to understand those recordings. They get ahold of me to become friends and they know they are going to get treated with respect and truth.

Picture yourself someone visiting. Do you really think these pages offer great sound? The numbers don't lie my friends. Let me make a challenge to you guys. Pick out some home audio threads on TuneLand to read and tell me the difference between what is there and what is here. What do you think would happen here if you started threads about your systems and the progress of your sound?

it's not pretention

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I have tuned my room in kind of a lame, half-assed way. I went to hobby lobby and bought these three-panel room divider things. they're about 7 feet tall, and I positioned them on the far wall, opposite the system' in the corners. My idea was they'de stop the sound bouncing off the wall. They do seem to have gotten rid of some bass resonence or something that was going on in the corners. Also I hung a 10 ft. x 6 ft. rug on the wall between them. So that far wall should be a lot less "live" , right? I didn't really notice any huge difference. Also, I put 3/8 inch high foam rubber weatherstripping between the glass shelves and the steel frame of the entertainment stand. seems like that would help eliminate vibration. Maybe the digital-analog thing is all in my head. Maybe digital is superior to analog.Maybe what I miss is all the screwing around with cartridges and vinyl .

Geoff, thanks for starting what I think is a fascinating thread.

Michael, What I find frustrating is that their is a failure to acknowledge that not everyone has the ability to pursue this hobby the same way. I can't put up room treatments. It is literally a non starter because my listening room is my living room and my wife will not let me put up treatments. I have spent an extensive amount of time shifting around furniture to optimize placement and sound but the idea of room tuning beyond where I put the sofa, hang pictures and put the globe is not possible. The only way I have seen to get a good looking properly treated room requires a contractor and if I tell my wife we need to remodel for better sound, I think I may want to allocate that money to an attorney instead of a contractor.

Secondarily, I have a lot of disposable income but not enough to be buying equipment and taking it apart when I have no idea what I am doing. I built a pair of speakers which was a fun exercise particularly since they came out sounding great. I can follow a wiring schematic but anything beyond that is not in the cards. I am not going to learn AV repair to pursue a hobby. It is time consuming and highly technical.

I get where you are coming from regarding plug and play not being much of a hobby but the alternative is a never ending, obsessive compulsive march toward "perfect sound" which evidently means Diana Krall played in a startlingly ugly room on a system that requires a degree in engineering to use. There has to be a middle ground where people who don't like Diana Krall, who want aesthetically pleasing rooms without a contractor involved and don't want to pick up part time work in AV repair can participate. It feels like "listening" is too much about the cool sound and not enough about the actual music.

I am a music lover who appreciates great sound because I want to hear my favorite artists and experience great music. It could be Avenged Sevenfold and Black Sabbath or Miles Davis and John Coltrane, I want all the music I listen to to sound great and I am not willing to alter what I listen to simply because it is a good recording. For instance, i don't like Diana Krall and am not prepared to start listening to her no matter how good her recordings sound. Maybe this means I am not an audiophile and if that is he case, I am really content with it.

David & Sloan, completely get where you guys are coming from. There is something extraordinary about sitting down and listening to an album side. Actually listening to the story the artist intended to tell. That is what digital, especially MP3 playlists misses. Everything is a list of greatest hits. that is what I dislike most about digital.

Listen, I get the room treatment thing as well as you guys do, well maybe not as much as Michael :)
Once I get my equipment set then I work what I can in the room but my is room is rather difficult to treat. The whole right side of my living room is floor to ceiling glass lol. I remember reading somewhere at some point some bigwig audiophile guy saying something to the effect of this. For 5-10k retail pricing you can get to within 90% of the Nirvana sound Gods. Anything after that will require tens and possibly hundreds of thousands dollars. That kind of money will probably never pass through my hands and I certainly do not have the patience nor the work acumen to chase that kind of disposable income. I think that for those of us without a lot of disposable income this hobby is downright maddening at times. What will work and what won't? To me that means that I can solicit opinions from people that have more experience with this than I do but ultimately all I can really do is get the equipment in here, listen to it and move on from there. My example of this is guitars. I have been playing since I was 19 (I am now 50). Guitars are extremely personal instruments and they each have their own personality and quirks. For a period of about 15 years I must have gone through 50 guitars and 30 amps before I finally came to the 2 electrics, one acoustic and the tube head that I now have. I still love this hobby though frustrating it may be at times and don't intend to quit until I am in the ground!
For what it is worth, I have been installing, tweaking and troubleshooting AV systems for more than 10 years and one of the first things that I always talk about is the room. The fact is though that most folks that I have dealt with would be like Bierfeldt and needing the services of a good attorney if they were to go crazy in a room.
Cheers

Hi Dave

I'm glad to hear your giving the CD's a chance. Also glad to hear you've been voicing your room out some. Stop in and visit us on TuneLand sometime. I'm tuning 4 guys tonight on there. Once you get started and find that you have more control over your sound than you thought, the hobby takes on a lot more meaning. Tonight I'm referencing "Brothers in Arms" in 4 different countries.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Bierfeldt

I would like to get your opinion. Here is a link to one of the listeners I'm working with tonight. Do you see his system as ugly? http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t288p285-greetings-from-malaysia

In time I hope we all get to know each other better and maybe even recommend the right listener for the job when it comes to advice given here. I hope you and everyone here understands I'm all about having fun with this hobby and if someone is happy we can't be more happy for them. However the fact is high end audio is about much more than plug & play and we should all be happy for each others level of listening, but we should also make room for those who do decide to go further. If not the very meaning of high end audio is in jeopardy, and as you can see declining monthly from these pages. This doesn't have to be so and the fact is there are far more tweakers than component collectors. You just don't see many of them here anymore partly because going further is suppressed.

Guys this is Stereophile not Better Homes & Garden. If your wives don't enjoy your love for music, maybe you should have discussed this before putting a ring on it. The way I see it, if you don't want to go all the way no biggie, but don't marginalize the hobby for others. Don't think it's strange that someone may look at you funny if you own ARC and Wilson but have it sitting against a wall in a living room. There are systems specifically designed to sit against a wall or in a corner or wall mount with a sub, but having a great system and never really getting a chance to hear it, and in the same breath make judgement calls on recordings, doesn't make sense.

I've had people here telling me off for making music sound good. Does that make sense in anyones world? Hey this forum is only going to be as good as you guys make it, and when you cut out the audio "enthusiast" and chase away people who are actually excited about building their own private concert hall, they don't loose, you do and Stereophile does.

I think we all should push for being friends, but stop and look at the people who come and go, and why they leave. If they are attracted and getting fed they would still be here. Again it's your forum, and it doesn't really interfere with my agenda one way or another. I'm just a professional in the music biz trying to lend a hand while recruiting people who want to go further in the hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Sloansong

"The fact is though that most folks that I have dealt with would be like Bierfeldt and needing the services of a good attorney if they were to go crazy in a room."

This doesn't mean that the 100,000 or so listeners out there who do go further should be turned off by this forum. I get that there are many clubs, but when someone is saying why they can't go further, this is their rationale and personal limits. Doesn't mean their a bad hobbyist, but it does mean that they might be listening to 10% of the recording while others are experiencing a much higher percentage. Either way it's ok as long as we take the time to share our personal levels of listening both good and bad. We should all know who we are talking to.

In other words, how many serious listeners want to come to an audiophile forum that says "it's not about the soundstage"? There's at least one writing on this very thread that doesn't understand what "Stereo" "Phile" even means. Stereo is a soundstage. Phile is “enthusiast for”. In my book that means a place to gather for those who are “enthusiast for” a "soundstage". It doesn't need be anything other than that.

I hope some of you are understanding why I need to share this point of view, as well as understand it has nothing to do with your personal choices. I didn't come here to settle for "well ok". I make no apologise for raising the bar in this hobby. And others feel the same way.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

can someone tell how to take a picture with my laptop and put it on this forum? I'm pretty retarded with computers, so try to make it simple.This thing does have a camera, right?

I wouldn't describe that as ugly but I am certain my wife would. She wants the system to be as small as possible to deliver extraordinary sound. This meant that my Infinity Kappa's had to go since they were 4' high and 13" wide. However, she was listened to a Bose system away from the carefully tuned space of a retail showroom and realized that there is such thing as too discreet. Thus, we compromise. She would never consider the room transformation in the attached link acceptable but something that is more compact is perfectly acceptable. alternatively, i keep to a limited but surprisingly generous budget and we have a strict no construction policy.

I work within my guardrails. My current system was described recently by and audio enthusiast friend of ours as "having a live concert in your living room any time you want it." I believe soundstage is important and I am certain I am hearing more than 10% of my recordings. In fact, I would argue I am much closer to 90%. My system is flawed assuredly. My speaker placement is not ideal. My equipment is not as isolated as I would like it to be and my cable runs are longer than I want. But, I have worked hard to minimize these negatives and feel I have done a good job and can say that others agree.

Now, if fairness you have offered me some excellent advice, which was "listen". I took that advice and i listened to my system in a critical way to determine what I disliked and what the shortcomings were. This led me to realize that bass response and power were my primary issues. I needed an amp and preamp that delivered tighter control over bass and my sound thinned as volume increased due to an amp being a wee bit underpowered.

It is true that I could have made a wiser purchase in my initial integrated amp and not faced this issue. That is undeniable. That being said, I would not have learned as much about what I like and dislike and my net loss on that integrated amp was $150. I used it happily for three years. That is hardly a cost.

My initial plan was to go through and do a complete replacement and step everything forward in my whole system. I replaced my integrated with separates and was planning to replace all my sources and eventually upgrade my speakers. After buying a power amp and swapping in my carver preamp, I was shockingly disappointed and felt I had taken a step back in sound. I then took your advice again and listened to figure out what I didn't like and spent a lot of time trying to find the right preamp. I listened to 10 or 12 units and finally found the right one for me.

The amazing thing is that once I swapped in the right preamp with the right power amp, sound came to life. All of a sudden realized that upgrading my speakers may not be necessary. They sound extraordinary. I have since been spending a lot of time really focusing in on my sources and listening to their shortcomings and you know what, I am increasing certain that i don't need to upgrade them. I may want to get different functional services (spotify and tidal instead of pandora) or a lack of an on/off switch to increase usability for my wife, but I won't be doing because I believe I will be improving my sound in any dramatic way.

My point is...I found the right equipment for me and my room. No room alterations would have solved my initial problems with my underpowered integrated. Alternatively, I could have bought a different preamp/power amp combination and altered my room to get the sound just the way I wanted it but I fortunately had the budget, time and retail resources (I live in NYC metro with dozens of AV Shops) to be able to go out and evaluate equipment and find what was right.

Now, I am not saying that room alterations could not make my system even better. I am 100% certain they could but that is outside of scope for me. Secondarily, I could have bought the wrong equipment for me and my room. This, I agree is more common than it should be. I didn't largely because of where I live and as I said, am lucky to have dozens of shops I can go to and demo equipment. But if I bought the wrong equipment, you would then say alter the room, not the equipment. I think it depends on which is more appropriate and feasible.

People unfortunately are forced to buy based on reviews, advice from forums like these and often, the advice of the one or two audio shops in their part of the world and sift through all the marketing. There is an untrue belief that if you just spend a lot, you are going to get a system that you like. I have a good friend who is remodeling his house in the Hampton's (fought life) and is putting in a theatre room. His budget is $40K for the room and asked my POV. I didn't see anything particularly wrong with the recommendation but told him that at minimum, he needed to go listen to the speakers to ensure that he and his wife like them and he was shocked to learn that you could spend $20K for speakers and possibly not like them. He had a perception hat when you crossed a certain price threshold that everything began to sound the same and all of it was awesome. We went to a local shop and listened to Revels and then to B&Ws and he decided that he and his wife needed to go listen to the speakers before they bought them.

There are different ways to pursue this hobby and achieve great sound. You have a business to run and it sounds like business is good. To your credit, you do not hide the fact that you are actively soliciting for your business and genuinely try and help folks based on your methods. I don't have an issue with that in any way, shape or form. Again, you have helped me.

But is your way the only way? Also, your critique of reccos that aren't consultative can lead people down the path of making poor equipment choices but in the end, every recco should be a suggestion for what to demo and evaluate, not to go out and buy having never heard. That is, unless you are doing it with a generous return policy and want o do an in-home demo.

On a side note, you mention that there are 100,000 active audiophile and the universe is growing. I don't know if that is true as you would be a better judge than me but it doesn't sound unreasonable. Lets say that 100K number is right. That means in the US, 3 in every 10K people is an audiophile. With those numbers, it is unlikely you will ever meet more than 1 or 2 other audiophiles in your life unless you seek them out and you need to bump into them at a time to expose that passion which is unlikely. By hobby standards, that to me doesn't feel super robust or that healthy. I don't care if it is growing at 10% a year (which I don't believe it is), that is still a tiny universe.

And finally, to suggest that those of us who are happily married (and I am happily married) should have thought twice about who we wed based on their support of our hobby is fascinating. I am not one to judge but to me, if you are altering major life decisions (who you wed) based on a hobby, well...it is no longer a hobby, but a lifestyle. For those who choose to pursue that, more power to them. For me, this is and always will be a hobby.

Michael, I don't think you should have to apologize for your point of view. I think that as thinking reasoning adults we should be be to take in a lot of opinions and separate for yourself what is chaff and what has meaning for you.
I also don't feel like folks like Bierfeldt are "marginalizing the hobby" by sharing their knowledge about the things that they know. Just as I don't think that you are personally marginalizing the hobby for your view point. Look we all have different ears and hear things differently than most other folks. I would love to think that I have a "golden ear" myself but at the age of 50, several different rock bands have given my ears plenty of deficiencies although you would never get me to admit it lol!
I believe I gave credence to you before about room treatment being important and I think most of us that are hear recognize that. I mean admit it, this hobby is extremely esoteric at beast, frustrating a lot of the time, devoid of magic bullets but oh so satisfying for brief moments of our existence.
I will also say that I am never ever going to be in the stratospheric but small minority that has $20,000 to spend on speakers or other equipment as I try to live within my means and get the best sound that I can.
Having said all of this I guess my point is that I value those few of you that remain on here and your opinions with regards to the hobby. I also think that sometimes those of us that any kind of knowledge in here tend to be put off by what we would deem as simple or beneath our understanding when people ask questions. I have seen it time and time again on forums where the folks with most of the knowledge are fed up with people not checking via search first and the condescension certainly shows when they deem a post worthy of a reply. I think this has had a negative effect on any hobby that people reach out to for help on an online forum and has certainly been a factor in turning a lot of folks off.
For what it is worth, the ramblings preceding this line of text is my opinion only and certainly no t meant as a slight to anyone. As a side note I suddenly had this thought. Maybe what I come here for is not knowledge per se but others experiences.
Cheers

Hi Bierfeldt

This is a great thread as I believe it gets to some understanding of who the people posting are. Again I hope that the positives out weight any downsides.

My point of view comes from a different set of friends vs yours, which I feel makes for good conversation. As I do know many who have high end audio systems playing in living rooms the usual people who come to get more involved do indeed have music as a lifestyle that goes further than a hobby. That's from my world looking on though. It's odd coming here for them cause they thought that this would be a forum that contained the ultimate system approach but they have been disappointed. They don't feel this forum represents what Stereophile was and wonder how it got so watered down. Please keep in mind that this comes from many others as well as myself, some of them your own members here who now have a home or visit TuneLand. Many many of them are highend audio gentlemen who have been around the hobby and industry as insiders, musicians, many concert goers but most of all folks who have made room specs call home theatres, living rooms and of course studios. BTW the comment about 10% was not coined by me but by an industry personality.

Of course I was making an attempt at humor with the wife comment, but truth be told most of my clients & friends do have wives who are 100% on board and encourage the lifestyle of extreme listening (at whatever level of money) whether their systems are $2000.00 or 2 millon, they share the all in passion. I would say that most of them don't buy into the equipment ladder approach, or they did this but returned back to simplicity. They are also unique I would say, because they mostly have systems designed around their lifestyle and not an audiophile system misplaced.

I got a call from one of them from 20 some years ago a couple of days ago. He needed a new woofer, but went on to tell me about how his systems have thrilled people for years. His four listening areas have incredible soundstages, with no speakers or equipment out in the room at all. I say this to those who talk about the WAF. Fact is you can have fantastic high end sound if you put the acoustics first and then design around it. On TuneLand you find most who have listening rooms but many systems we do are for the most part hidden. A good designer is all things to all listeners and BTW we have had systems feature in Better Home & Garden and have done our fair share of track shows. These are the high end shows that do feature home walk throughs. I share this (smiling ofcourse) for those who try to paint the picture of this garrage group of guys sitting in converted sun rooms with equipment all over the room naked. Don't let the geoff's of the world paint pictures for you of marginalizing attempts. We truly have been there done that LOL. I'm trying to think of the store Tweeters bought out in the south years ago. I think it was named NOW Audio Video Today but not sure. Well if you visited this chain of stores you would have found 10-20,000 square foot stores all with tunable rooms designed to meet most acoustical environments. These rooms had home entertainment to high end. I'm stating these things so we can talk forward from our own personal experience. In other words I have heard every WAF story on the planet and can only say, if there's a will there's a way.

My friend, if you have an audio system that sounds like a concert hall with the stereo against the wall and no acoustic tuning can we come hear it? I personally (and I've been in this professionally since 15 years old) have never heard a system with rack in middle of a pair of speakers against the wall sound like a live classical concert. Keep in mind I ran sound for the Atlanta Symphony. What I have heard is many who have said "it sounds like a concert" but after tuning say "had no idea you could do this". Not saying this to be mean just relating a little reality into the talk. If "rack systems" regardless of money produce the real space there's certainly no need for guys like me, but I have a feeling if we get down to reality people would be surprised what their rack systems would do if let loose.

let me also interject this

How many reviews do you guys use as your guide for others? Take a look at these reviewers rooms. Are they anything like a rack system setup? note: rack system is a term used by the hobby as a rack in the middle with the speakers directly on either side against the wall. Lynn for example is a high end audio rack system. Naim as well. These are designed to be so of course. Then you have Corner systems and on it goes. It's harder to get a free room system to work well against the wall. They were designed at least a little into the room all the way to nearfield. These designs develope certain wall reaction problems as well as depth and center stage issues because they were not designed against walls. So naturally when someone like me sees a high end audio system set against the wall with the equipment directly inbetween the red flags go up. Likewise the flags for someone trained go up in many setup situations. This is why I think some may get testy when people here are giving advice.

Read the advice threads and look at how many are given advice based on things other than setup and conditions. It looks to me and others that there is a lack of understanding on setup issues and a lack of respect for the biggest factor in sound, which is the sound (sound pressure) itself.

It's not that people like me are here to bash, we're just here as professionals in this specific part of the hobby rolling our eyes at failed attempts that don't need to happen. Worstly, look at all the guys trying to solve their sound problems with budget ladders when most of them could easily have far better sounding systems for less than 10 grand total. If others want to spend more fine but you can see there are many folks here wishing they would have not taken that next money step only to go backward. Most of these guys leave disappointed when they should be getting advice that is more rounded.

Also, and I will keep saying this. I believe most of the people who post here are good folks and enjoy the hobby, but I also think it's ok to intermingle with others that have had a little more experience or have been in this as a business through their life. I'm happy everytime someone hits the on botton, but this is one of those hobbies that has many levels & layers to it, and many times folks think they are at the end-zone only to find they've been hanging around the 20 yard line for most of their game.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

"There are different ways to pursue this hobby and achieve great sound. You have a business to run and it sounds like business is good. To your credit, you do not hide the fact that you are actively soliciting for your business and genuinely try and help folks based on your methods. I don't have an issue with that in any way, shape or form. Again, you have helped me.

But is your way the only way? Also, your critique of reccos that aren't consultative can lead people down the path of making poor equipment choices but in the end, every recco should be a suggestion for what to demo and evaluate, not to go out and buy having never heard. That is, unless you are doing it with a generous return policy and want o do an in-home demo."

When we first got involved as a team of guys to help the industry RoomTune ended up being in 650 dealers. Sadly most of these dealers got wiped out by internet sales. I probably spent 500 or so thousand teaching folks how to set up their systems, but had no idea high end audio stores were going to drop like flies and that teaching would not be able to be continued on that scale. However I'm thankful that enough of that movement got into the mainstream of high end and now is being revived.

I'm not sure return policies could save this part of the industry, but I believe educating the listener can.

on recordings

I've always assumed the audiophile had their act together as far as recordings go. Many of the greats I know and knew are pretty up on their collections. Maybe this is something I was hopeful of here, but am realising maybe my assumptions were wrong and the recording experts in this industry have disappeared, at least from these pages. For this I apologize and have to rethink my approach to a crowd who has not spent a lot of time reviewing different formats and recording pressings. I guess this is another one of those things I have been surprised at here. Where's the referencing? I ask myself how can this forum exist with so little referencing between listeners going on. You know out of all the talk about the loudness wars, there's almost no comparison talk to mate with it. There's bash debates on what is best but no one sitting there giving what they are specifically comparing, and doing it in a setting so others can add their input. The referencing here had to be moved to TuneLand in order to even talk about the stage size listeners were getting. On Tuneland we are doing it now, walking through recordings and comparing the end results and how we make changes among those results, but you bring this very fundamental part of the hobby here and posters jump in with flames and more of everything except for the listening itself. Honestly my friend how could you possibly know if I am giving good or bad advice without us putting on a piece of music together and walking through it together?

on actively soliciting

This is a bit of a joke for us at MGA and I can see why some here may not get it. I have always thought stereophile as a good place to reach a certain crowd. I'm a huge fan of what both Harry & JGH did in creating this part of the industry. I find it a ton of fun that a group of guys are playing with audio systems re-creating the stereo soundstage. It's been my personal "most fun" thing, in the studio and listening room. I've been called the most extreme listener in the biz and for me that's a title that is almost as fun as the listening itself. But lets come clean about the "actively soliciting" thing. Forums are usually by people who are promoting what they believe in. This forum as I have said before and just now, puts referencing recordings together, on the way back burner as compared to them promoting their audio egos. If this were not so you would see personal system threads and music being played together. I make it clear right up front that I am here to turn people on to great listening as I have done all my life and invite you and the rest to come do it with me. The rest of this stuff is just posturing among a bunch of guys promoting their egos as audio knowits.

You do realise, that most of my exchanges here are with a troll who has a portable cassette player as his reference and a gal who won't even show her system. I promote the most extreme systems in the sport and build them from scratch. Maybe this doesn't sit well with some, I don't know, but I do feel I belong here maybe even a little more than some.

this thread is called "the most pressing issue" and this is my take

I'm glad that most folks who see me up here are saying "where have you been" and I hope the rest see me as someone having a great deal of fun, and a representitive of the hobby of listeners.

bumping into

you said

"On a side note, you mention that there are 100,000 active audiophile and the universe is growing. I don't know if that is true as you would be a better judge than me but it doesn't sound unreasonable. Lets say that 100K number is right. That means in the US, 3 in every 10K people is an audiophile. With those numbers, it is unlikely you will ever meet more than 1 or 2 other audiophiles in your life unless you seek them out and you need to bump into them at a time to expose that passion which is unlikely. By hobby standards, that to me doesn't feel super robust or that healthy. I don't care if it is growing at 10% a year (which I don't believe it is), that is still a tiny universe."

To be accurate I said "the 100,000 or so listeners out there who do go further". And bumping into music lovers period, how can someone not bump into them lol. I think this forum should look more at what is instead of the small box they tend to put themselves in. The audiophile world in general is huge and growing by leaps and bounds, another reason it concerns me that this forum is not bringing them into it's fold.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Sloansong

Forums are interesting creatures and sometimes takes a few go rounds to learn the moods and personalities of them. One thing though as with all involved hobbies, there's always going to be levels we reach on our own personal walk up the stairs where we will turn around and say "why did I do that" and worse "why was I so bold in saying that". The truth of it is if we as listeners would move forward with practicality, patience and hype meters we would find that this hobby is not as hard as it seems. I could come to one of your spare bedrooms right now and with less than $10,000 spin your world (have done it for $2000). How would and can I do that? By treating all parts of your system as equals, and this is the biggest down fall of the High End audiophile hobbyist.

High end audiophiles have been missled into thinking they can ignor what audio is and somehow step over some of the basics. What are the basics?

1) your listening to pressure
2) your system is analog (meaning it moves)
3) your components are electronically driven

Fact is, if you have a balance of these 3 and are able to play it's hard to not get great sound.

here are some other basics

Every recording has a recorded code. That means, recordings are different in their sound and have been put on the format as unique play-throughs. Do you know how many high end audio audiophiles have no clue what this means? Even many reviewers don't know that recordings need to be reset at the playback end.

lets take a look at this, this is for anyone

Grab 8 recordings and play a song off of each. Besides the song itself why do they sould different? Give me an answer better than recording quality and the loudness wars. Those answers and we'll be here forever. Guys here on this forum need to be able to move past this. Go to my forum or others and see why they sound different.

Ask yourself why do they EQ records and tapes? Is it because they are better or worse, or is it because they are recorded differently and have a different frequency response code?

For the last 2 years at least, this forum has not explored the different recorded codes and how to play them. This my friends is part of the very foundation of this hobby that goes back to the beginning, and when I mention it here all I got was a few smart A***s that questioned what a recorded code was. And these were people in the industry or so they call themselves.

This forum needs to do the basics, and it fails to do so cause it's too busy window shopping. People come, ask what component, and leave. No system threads that talk about their listening adventures and what they are learning about recordings and their systems abilities to tune to the recordings.

These are the issues, not if Michael is being unfair in judging someone who hasn't even learned about tuning their systems yet. What we should be asking is why someone or the industry at large has not been teaching the basics as well as the different levels that the hobby has. I promise you, all those guys saying they can't go there is because they have never sat themselves down in front of a system that does go there. Or, they haven't taken their own system there.

How many of you guys have spare bedrooms doing nothing, raise your hands?

Some of you have limit space, so for you, how many of you have heard a high end audio lifestyle system where there are no components in the room at all?

There are so many options today that really no one should be saying their systems can't play 95% of the recordings out there well. Or, at least people who can't play that recording should be able to reference it with someone here to figure out what's going on. We all know there are different levels of format quality that varies all over the place, or you would think so, but using this as excuses makes no sense.

Sorry sloan, I deviated (I do that alot in my writings), but my point now is, for the life of me I don't understand why so many here have not realized why people pack their bags and go somewhere else.

This hobby can only be learned by doing it and as you mentioned with guitars there are levels of playing and tuning them. Why the same throught proccess is so elusive to this forum is beyond my ability to understand. Most of the people here seem nice enough, but the lack of going for it, or at least letting others do so and share is a mystery.

at the same time I love it when some do become more open and visit us at the tune and turn into wild listening animals

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Geoff said :-

>>> “I am used to some folks who hold the opinion, "we don't need tweaks here" or "I'd rather hear the pure sound of an untweaked room." I think this (conservative) attitude probably stems from feelings of satisfaction with your present sound and like you said an unwillingness or uneasiness with respect to tweaking and modding.” <<<

On following the Stereophile magazine for quite a number of years I have found that when such as Stereophile DO review or do articles or refer to the beneficial effect of certain so called “tweaks”, is when they get the most criticism and attack.

As after Robert Harley’s “The Cryogenic Compact Disc” article, especially when he wrote, in the middle of that article:-

>>> “In addition to CDs and LPs, the process has been used on Laser Vision-format video-discs, speaker cable, interconnects, integrated circuits, and musical instrument strings.” <<<

As after Michael Fremer’s article describing his experiences after doing the ‘tweak’ of applying a demagnetiser to discs.

As after Jason Victor Serinus described the beneficial effect (on the sound) of Ted Denny’s tiny ART devices at a Hi Fi Show. The whole thread on the Stereophile Chat Forum, after Jason’s mention, extended over 39 pages – much of it antagonistic!!

As after Jason Victor Serinus described the effect of the Stein Music Harmonizers which prompted one response in the Stereophile Forum of :-

>>> “Nah. It's just another dalliance brought forth by the mentally ill for the mentally ill and which does nothing more than saddle this industry with yet further embarrassment.

That Stereophile of all publications should brand it as "intriguing" in their show report is truly sad.” <<<

I would extend Michael G’s sentence :-

>>> “In other words, the people who say "we question tweaking & tuning" are still back in the world of not understanding what recordings are” <<<

To further say :-

In other words, the people who say "we question tweaking & tuning" are still back in the world of not understanding what recordings are and are still in the world of not realising that people are not hearing (resolving) ALL the musical information which is available to them – until they…………………(fill in the blank with your preferred ‘tweak’) !!

In reply to David.

Although I appreciate that your experiences have been that the pleasure in the ‘sound’ from LPs has been different (better ?) than with music in the digital form, there have still been numerous ‘tweaks’ which are able to improve the sound from LPs still further – showing that there are also adverse situations created with the LP form as with the digital form.

As evidenced by the specific example of Michael Fremer’s (and John Atkinson’s) positive experiences after applying a demagnetiser to LPs.

There are two significant experiences with audio. On the one hand there is the listening experience and it’s associated pleasure from just listening to the equipment and discs purchased (either LP or digital) – without doing any further ‘tweaking’ and, on the other hand, the listening experience and increased pleasure from listening after certain ‘tweaking’ has been carried out. What so many of the ‘tweaks’ over these past 30 to 40 years have shown, is that there are ‘things’ (and listening situations) having an adverse effect on the sound and therefore on it’s associated pleasure which is not appreciated until one has actually had the experience of a (or more than one) ‘tweak’ giving further improvements in the very enjoyment of the music.

Michael G said :-

>>> “This doesn't have to be so and the fact is there are far more tweakers than component collectors. You just don't see many of them here anymore partly because going further is suppressed.” <<<

If that reference is implying that such as the Stereophile magazine suppresses articles appertaining to ‘tweaking’, then I would suggest that it is not a ‘suppression’ but more that it is extremely difficult for a Hi Fi magazine to actually write about various ‘tweaking’ devices – without naming what equipment such a ‘tweaking device’ was used on and how it improved the sound of that ‘named’ equipment……. For example. In the same issue as Michael Fremer’s description of improving the sound by applying a demagnetiser to LPs, there was a reference to the effect of placing the Shakti Stone device on an audio item – and gaining an improvement in the sound by doing so. Wes Phillips had chosen a tiny power amplifier on which to try the Shakti Stone device but just imagine if he had chosen such as an expensive Joe Bloggs Mark 2 amplifier and described improving the sound by placing a Shakti Stone device on it. If the Joe Bloggs Mark 2 amplifier had sold in the tens of thousands then it would have been extremely unfair to Joe Bloggs for their amplifier to be named as having an inherent problem which could be alleviated somewhat with a Shakti Stone device when hundreds of other manufacturers’ amplifiers could have a similar inherent problem – but who were not named !!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Quotes from Stereophile forum members.

"Take note of Geoffy's pattern... Read carefully all of Geoffy's exchanges with posters here and other forums around the internet. Whenever posters ask about or take issue with Geoffy, he turns those questions and issues around and accuses the poster of the same. Geoffy often refers to alcohol/ medication use, sexual dysfunction, intellectual deficiencies, inconsistencies with facts and truth, etc.
Whenever he is questioned about his posts, he constantly replies with insults, cartoons, and often refers those issues (as above) noted in his posts back to others. Even using the exact same words of other posters. As illustrated above, Geoffy bats 100%."

"....but at last both may & geoff have spilled their agendas, for all to witness, and that's important for this forum and the other forums to see.

Announcement to the other audio forums and members here.

geoff said

"I never said I wasn't a troll. Don't act so surprised. Deal with it."

may said

"Geoff using mockery and I use the method of challenging their replies"

They talk about "sparring" with members of audio forums, and as can be seen here and those forums, they have no desire to have productive audio discussions. Based on their self declarations I see no fault in the findings others have.

http://www.bing.com/search?q=geoff+kait+may+belt+snake+oil&qs=n&pq=geoff... "

After these were read and the entire thread & threads they came from I know of at least 5 members who left these pages never to return. These and others have emailed me stating their discuss with the Stereophile Forum for letting the topics and threads since around 2008 on slip into a less than up to the standards Stereophile had previously.

My answer to these complaints was and is an appeal to the mods here. Second after this had fallen on deaf ears, was to invite the members to TuneLand as an addition for those wishing to have the same discussions without the trolling. Since that time 3000 new registries on www.tuneland.info and over 100 on the techno-zone. We have also recieved around 150 emails since 2014 from your members. As time goes on I'm sure this will grow as well as the concern over why these threads end up in the same dead ends.

My suggestion to try futher was to invite listers to reference their systems and music and report the results and explorations together, something that thrives on TuneLand and is all but none on this forum.

If you read the threads here it doesn't take long before the listening together is turned into excuse land. The very purpose of this hobby is ran from like the plague. Somehow these pages turned from the sharing of music to the fear of being exposed. Go back and look for yourselves and watch the members drop out. More important watch these same members appear somewhere else.

I know many great listeners who are members here who have walked away with their pride intact, and love of the hobby restored. Stereophile itself is not mostly to blame in the decline even though I feel they need to take the next step forward to keep in pace with the extreme listeners. The extreme listening setups are all but non-existent here. Most look like ad photos and not actual advance listening rooms & systems where hobbyist are able to dig deeply into recordings as individual events. The practices that are done on every recording made are not done on the playback end. Because of this many have left to pursue more involved listening explorations.

Mainly the days of myself, Tom Miiller, Mike Gindi, Kenny Stevens, Les Linton and others in the golden ear crowd are no longer gathering around Paul Simon's "Hearts & Bones" together, sweating over the perfect tone and presentation of one line on one song. Thousands of these moments are now archived in high end audio's greatest meetings.

This is what happens when talk replaces listening. When designers in the biz can only quote links of others and not break down the music themselves, and make themselves availible and accountable for every note, you might as well pack up and leave.

For those of us who "are" in the middle of todays listening, the greatest moments of our musical lives continue to be discovered with as much passion as the golden days of High End Audio.

Will this forum and the hobby come back strong? For some of us, it was never weakened, just moved on to the next step.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael, please consider this an official invitation that if you ever find yourself in Southwestern, CT, you are welcome to come by and hear my system. I would hope it delivers above your expectations but I am sure my ignorance would be exposed as I am not an audio professional. That being said, I believe I have the best sounding home system that I have heard.

I do not have a "rack" system in that I do not have the speakers up against the wall at ear level on stands with the equipment in the middle. My living room is a multi-function room that is half office and half sitting room. With my wife out of town, I got out my handy furniture moving pads, my speakers stands and I played around with a bunch of placements including the "rack" system you described above which I found surprisingly underwhelming.

I have ultimately settled on a situation where the speakers are close to the wall with port bungs installed. The speakers are on top of bookshelves and I have them carefully aimed down toward the listening location which is about 15' from the front of the speakers. The subwoofer is near the wall about 6' in front of the speakers. This obviously creates a situation where I am getting a reflection off the ceiling only a short distance in front of the speakers. Additionally, there is a sofa in the middle of the room about 8' from the front of the speakers which I am sure is dulling the reflection I would get off the floor. (I am using reflection as a descriptor, if not the right term will at least illustrate my perception of what is happening.) There are drapes and shades on the windows and pictures on the walls.

As I said, I have turned this room upside down and although strange and far from "ideal," I feel like this delivers a deep and wide soundstage on what I am certain are excellent recordings and most everything I listen too sounds great. I have ultimately found that Black Sabbath's Sabbath Bloody Sabbath and my CD version of Iron Maiden's the Seventh Son of the Seventh Son are the only recordings that I feel are really poor sounding. Interestingly, the vinyl addition of the latter sounds fabulous.

If we were to go back to the original topic of this thread, your point around the loss of all the dealers you trained and the fact that most of them are gone is probably the biggest issue with this hobby. Unless you live some place like NYC or LA, you are stuck listening to whatever the few dealers in your area display, not even what they carry. Guaranteed at least one of them is going to be dominated by McIntosh, Rotel, Classe and B&W which have a certain sound profile. It has increased dependence on magazine reviews and reccos. Reviews are impossible to interpret without proper context and tons of time spent listening to equipment. Reccos's are based on someone else's personal preferences and their listening experiences and again, without context, are worth what everyone paid for them.

In many ways, a huge gap in understanding among non-audiophiles is that there is no objective definition of "good sound." There's the soundstage and you want both depth and width but the way the equipment presents it with emphasis on different frequencies (bright vs dark, etc) is a matter of personal taste. That creates a lot of the unhappiness that I think you describe. People take a recco and buy it without listening. What they end up with is ideal for someone else's taste or room.

Hi Bierfeldt

Can I see the system?

"I have ultimately settled on a situation where the speakers are close to the wall with port bungs installed. The speakers are on top of bookshelves and I have them carefully aimed down toward the listening location which is about 15' from the front of the speakers. The subwoofer is near the wall about 6' in front of the speakers. This obviously creates a situation where I am getting a reflection off the ceiling only a short distance in front of the speakers. Additionally, there is a sofa in the middle of the room about 8' from the front of the speakers which I am sure is dulling the reflection I would get off the floor. (I am using reflection as a descriptor, if not the right term will at least illustrate my perception of what is happening.) There are drapes and shades on the windows and pictures on the walls."

Major big step forward vs guys who get trapped in the rack system setup. nice job! How close are the speakers to the ceiling, and what type of ceiling is it construction wise? If things are what I am picturing I think it's great your using the ceiling as part of the delivery. So many folks get stuck in that "I got to use floorstanders" trying to remove the furniture effect while firing right into the furniture. As you have found, your head and shoulders (no pun) above the rack setups.

For others reading where can they best go to read about your unique setup? Now I'm getting excited!! Isn't it funny that a picture tells a thousand words in this hobby! I hope I can visit a thread where I can see everything or if not maybe you would start your own thread on TuneLand.

If not on TuneLand and if you haven't here yet, maybe you could break things down again on this thread. Obviously TuneLand is a much better place for doing this type of thing, but either way I'm looking forward to hearing your system through your ears as we enter I'm sure a deeper understanding of your expertise.

thank you so much for sharing!!!!!

Sharing our system experience is exactly what we need here as we help each other learn more about the pressure we listen to. All of us deserve to be masters of our own listening world and I appreciate you opening up the doors of your kingdom to us. I am your willing student :)

the fun continues

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Wow, here I thought I must be crazy for thinking the speakers sounded better in the unusual spot I have them compared to what is "ideal." Good to know that this may not be a manifestation of my burdgeoning insanity.

Here is the link over to a new thread centered on my 2 channel system

http://www.stereophile.com/content/my-unusual-setup-delivering-great-results

Michael, please feel free to let me know what you think

Hi bierfeldt

Busy day on TuneLand, so I got over here just now. I'm thrilled that you have taken the time to start your own system thread. If I may make a bold statement to other members. There's really no way to know how serious someone is about the hobby unless we are able to see what they are doing. Many times I have ask those who are talking to please share their current pics and have been shocked at the scrambling around and excuses to avoid being a part of the actual on going hobby of listening and personal system journeys. In this particular hobby I think it's only safe to say that if you can't show it, you ain't got it, and in my book that eliminates or disqualifies members who may only be here to give opinions based on thin air. I call them audio trolls and have noticed that the talkers throughout these forums are called out often.

You have to ask yourself, why is someone here if they can't show their system. On every review we find a list of components at the end of the review as well the reviewer shows their listening environments to show us how serious they are about their conditions. A picture tells 2000 words or something like that. I find this so important that I have my own forum that covers every inch of my listening. To date 1325 pics and drawings of how I got to where I am as well as the others whose ears I trust.

A major part of this hobby is to be able to reference music together so we can see/hear where others are so we know where we are or may want to go, or if our system is able to go there. This is the whole idea and concept of community.

As this thread brings up the most pressing issue, there is no doubt that the most pressing issues on "stereophile" are about stereos and the music they play. Could anyone possibly disagree that this forum is about anything other than the topics of our stereos? We have stereos, we play them, then we share in the on going of that playing.

I once belonged to a car club when I had my show car. This forum was about half and half words and pics. We as members share what we did and showed a pic of us doing it. Simple formula right? That particular forum thrives to this day, why? Because the posters are actually doing that hobby and showing it as an on going practice.

What bierfeldt did today, was make a commitment. What he did is show us that he's willing and is a part of this community as an active listener. I can now look at bierfeldt's posting and see his point of view. In talking to him from this point on I can make a reference according to what I know about him or ask him how he came to the knowledge of his statements. I can then see how we are similar and different based on reality. Point is, if I had this reference point to who he is right from the start, trying to figure out how his thoughts matches or fits in with others and myself would be far easier.

we're breaking some listening ice here folks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I would put up a pic of mine but it is missing pieces right now

Hi Geoff

Is this the model Sony D-FS601 S2 Sports CD Walkman Portable Disc Player?

thanks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Guys

Been a busy time but I've been trying to keep up and share as much as possible.

Had an interesting chat with one of the pro audio site guys. In a round about way we talked about the audiophile camp. From what was said High End Audio has less of a presence than it did even five years ago. Here's the thought according to this particular gang of guys which adds up to 5000+members (one of the smaller sites). "the high end audio world has crippled itself by not being involved with it's co-parts". The audiophile world is growing as the high end audio world is barely noticed.

for example, mention the name NAMM and high end audio has no clue as to what this is

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2015/07/summer-namm-expected-to-bring-record-attendance-to.html

Go visit a pro-site and see the members talking about music, and the making of. Come here and see the extreme lack of music. Do you know that many pro-sites you have to give your audio bio right up front so they can see if you are a "troll, spammer". Here, the two members that come to mind, one has a portable CDP as a reference and the other refuses to name their system. Both of these would be booted as soon as they opened their mouths in the professional audio world (the world that actually makes the music).

It's the overwhelming ignorance that is sinking High End Audio. The music world gets it. You capture the music then you deliver it somewhere else. Mention this here and those very two members tell you how difficult this is, and how out of touch the "tune" must be, because we are tuning in the music every day.

Think of it. On one side you have successful listening and on the other ear buds and no system to show. No-one is taking the time to ask these two "why are you here" while the rest of the music world has moved on and then some.

The Music world is on the verge of making this hobby into something that can be standardized, while these two are upset with websters definition of audio: acoustical, mechanical, electrical. Mind you one of these is in their 90's and the other 80's. Both fighting against the very profession of making music.

You wonder why this forum can't gain traction and is pulling this magazine into the gutter, or at least obscurity? One of the founders of listening to stereo is spinning it's wheels sinking into the intellectual mudd, while the rest of the music world is thriving like never before. Let me repeat "thriving like never before".

The one person I refered to says "there are no answers" while the music world is moving toward playback standards for all raising the playback quality bar with it. The other person says "It's all a mystery" while the industry is working on a direct to listener EQing system that puts the listener in control of their levels of purity.

The music world is all about the variables and these two fight tuning (the very science of music rightness) as if a bad thing for music to be in-tune.

I'm not sure what old miss-informed classmates they have been talking to, but whoever it is, they are out of touch with what is happening as we speek. The CES is around the corner and we will be there in force. Will these two be anywhere near the advancements? One here to argue and the other to troll. The music world both CES & NAMM reach for the stars bringing the innovation with them and all they can due is post random DR results from people not even in the music biz.

What's the most pressing issue is as easy as reading these threads that turn into a mess.

Maybe we should stop saying the loudness wars and start saying the trolling wars.

As for me and the rest of the music industry, we enjoy every moment we're getting closer to being in-tune.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael G:-

>>> “The one person I referred to says "there are no answers" <<<

Michael. I had decided that in future I would not reply directly to any of your postings because of how you have repeatedly distorted and misrepresented what I say. But you are STILL at it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will you stop doing it, Michael. I did NOT say and have never said “there are no answers”. What I DID say was “that there are still many questions regarding sound, on the shelf, awaiting answers”. I am right.

However, what you have claimed, Michael, is that you have “Done the questions and got the answers”. You might have got some answers to some questions as to what can affect the sound but you certainly do NOT have all the answers to all those questions – which are still on the shelf, awaiting answers !!

I had also previously decided not to reply directly to you, Michael, so as not to be repeatedly accused of ‘trolling’ for ‘trolling’s sake’ or ‘arguing’ for arguing’s sake’.

Michael G :-

>>> “One here to argue and the other to troll.” <<<

I am not understanding, Michael, exactly what or where you are wanting Stereophile to step in and ‘moderate’. Are you wanting Stereophile to stop anyone challenging you regarding anything you write and claim ?

I have, repeatedly, explained why I have challenged certain people in the past. I have explained, again repeatedly, why I have specifically challenged you, Michael. I have carefully explained that I completely agree with you that EVERYTHING in the listening environment has an effect on the sound. I have explained that I completely agree with you that everything one then changes in the listening environment can change the sound.

I have, however, challenged you, Michael, when you have specifically claimed that your ‘variable tuning’ is THE (your emphasis in capitals - inferring the one and only) Answer.

As in Michael G’s reply some time ago:-

>>> “When we say "tuning" we really do mean it. It is "THE" answer” <<<

I have challenged you, Michael, when you have specifically claimed that your ‘variable tuning’ is THE (emphasis in capitals - inferring the one and only) Method. I have challenged you, Michael, when you have specifically claimed that your ‘variable tuning’ is THE Truth.

I have, instead, said that BOTH ‘fixed tweaks’ AND ‘variable tweaks’ are important and should be considered with equal importance.

You constantly write as though I am suggesting that people do “fixed” tweaks only and then all their listening problems will be solved. I have never suggested such a thing. I repeat again. BOTH ‘fixed’ and ‘variable’ tweaking should be used, in tandem, to get the best results !!

I would never challenge the basic and sensible concept of “try to keep everything as variable as possible” so that one can ‘go back to how it was before’. However, accepting that basic concept is completely different to deliberately discouraging people from doing ANY “fixed” tweaks. Sometimes, some tweaks, are “fixed” by their very nature.

I have also explained that whenever I have challenged other people in the world of audio it has been around a specific claim – such as with Uncle Stu’s belief (as stated often on the Audio Asylum site) that everything which adversely affects sound, is to do with RF interference. I challenged that belief and will continue to challenge that narrow belief. There are many things which adversely affect the sound – not just RF interference.

MANY questions, sitting on the shelf – regarding how ‘sound’ is affected – have NOT been answered, Michael, however often you wish to claim they have.

Challenging some people and their belief structure does, yes, result in ending up a ‘sparring match’ with such people – but the original purpose was never a deliberate ‘sparring’ in itself (which is what you, Michael constantly imply and are STILL – today – implying) but to challenge the narrowness of their thinking.

Michael G :-

>>> “and you'll see the same trolling practice by them. Keep reminding yourselves that what they do is normal for internet trolls. Once you go through this a couple of times, you'll not be so fooled by their attempt to disrupt. Honestly I blame this more on the Mods than I do them. May & geoff are just doing what they always have to gain some type of relevance.” <<<

Yes, I have referred to such exchanges as ‘sparring’ because that is how the exchanges have ended up. But the aim was not to deliberately ‘spar’ with people per se but to challenge a specific claim.

So, I query again what you, Michael, are actually asking Stereophile moderators to moderate !!

Michael G :-

>>> “You and geoff are somewhat retired being that you are in your late 80's or so, right?” <<<

No, you are not right – regarding me. Firstly I have not retired and secondly I am not in my late 80s. – As you would KNOW if you had ACTUALLY read about me !!!!

Michael G :-

>>> “It really just boils down to two old folks wanting to out ego someone for whatever reason, and trying to paint pictures to a crowd who could care less.” <<<

Again, you are wrong Michael. I know I am quite wise beyond even MY years and have a considerable amount of understanding, knowledge and experience regarding what provides good sound. This is not an ego matter at all. I see your technique of encouraging people to leave what might be a major problem alone (untreated because that treatment could be a ‘fixed’ treatment) as not conducive to them getting the best sound they could possibly get.

Michael G :-

>>> “I hope that you both give me the hope that you care about music.” <<<

THAT is low and quite unnecessary Michael, even for you. You really are threatened, aren’t you !!!

I have never attacked you, Michael. I have challenged your claim that “variable tuning” is THE Answer, yes, but never resorted to a personal attack on you personally. But, it looks increasingly as though you really don’t like being challenged !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

I just don't like answering the same questions tons of times only to be told I haven't. I've said this scores of times to you May.

Several members here said to you that you were just repeating what has been answered and you haven't been able to deal with this for whatever reason. You just did it again now. This isn't challenging anything May as you have been told by many members, many times. You reference me in almost all your posts. If you stopped I would have no need to reference you. Simple enough!

May, I haven't slept yet since yesterday. Do you know why? Because I am on my 17th system tuning for the day. Now maybe you would like to get ahold of these folks and tell them there's more or something else, but because they are getting the best sound of their listening life after falling prey to non-answers for so many years, I doubt they're going to be all that interested in your challenges, do you?

No one is stopping you from promoting what you think, nore do I care if you disagree with me. What I do care about are those 17 listeners this last 24 hours who have finally found music bliss after lifetimes of searching.

May, makes no sense for you to challenge me on something you have never done. the only way you will ever be able to answer your challenge is to jump in and tune for yourself.

May, that's the best advice I got for you. Besides that I hope you have a very Merry Christmas and have a stack of music to enjoy today.

have a great day!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

This is the way Geoffy does "science"...

Geoffy wrote "Take a cable with a black jacket and listen to it so younger [sic] an idea what it sounds like. Then wrap the outside of the black jacket say 1/4 the length with WHITE electrical tape. Listen to the cable again. You should be able to hear the sound is better with the white tape around the jacket."

A Fifth grader knows better!

See Geoffy's internet legacy by Google searching "Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica".

Heaps of scorn and ridicule!

Check out Geoffy's participation throughout this site's forum.

His "re-butt-als" often refer to body functions, drunkiness, drug use, or sexual dysfunction.

That's Geoffy!!

Hi Chris

Great to see you! Hope you've been listening to some great tunes!

It has been interesting to watch over the last two years geoff trolling Stereophile. I've gone back to do a little research and have found that the reputation of this forum as a trolling playground has been growing for some time. Most of the serious listeners have left the forum with a few (very few) faithful remaining.

I have to say, I'm even surprised that the few faithful still debate with geoff even knowing geoff's reputation as what we find when simply searching his name. Do these few know that they are talking to a fella that doesn't even have an audio system above earbuds hooked up to a portable player while he sits in his recliner posting internet trolls?

I barely skim his posts any more, but sometimes get interested why members even engage with a guy who hasn't had an inroom stereo in 9 years. I would think that this forum would at least have a minimum bar, but the gutter seems to rule the day here.

and this

"His "re-butt-als" often refer to body functions, drunkiness, drug use, or sexual dysfunction."

May Belt asks me why I think this place should be cleaned up, while she supports geoff's posting. I hardly read her stuff anymore either, umless I have the time for amusement instead of the listeners I am working with.

Shocking how members can go through their threads or threads they jump into and stay here. Are they not getting mail asking them to leave? Are they not getting mail at all? I get mail to hang in there until the changes take place and the forum gets back to serious audiophile-ing. Are the members here not seeing their friends leave? Are the members here not seeing their friends are moving on to successful listening instead of staying in the "IF's" of audio.

While this mass exodus is taking place, we should ask the question do people really want to come to a place that is saying "there are no answers", "all is a mystery". The only thing that attracts people here anymore are a few newbies, and those interested in reading flame wars. That's coming from the very members mouths who use to participate.

An interesting forum that at one time was at the top of it's game, but has falling siege to something as easy to solve as pushing a simple button called "banned". Why would a forum not want to protect it's reputation?

I will always be a fan of what was started here, but am sadden by the losses being encourage or ignored at best.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Have you checked out the new line of MGA Speakers yet?

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t72-mga-speakers

We'll be at the CES 2016. Looking forward to another fun show!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Google search "Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica"

Heaps of scorn and ridicule!