What I think is hilarious is your use of the word isoaltion, a word which you despise, at least up until you wrote the cryptic line, "I don't believe in absolute isolation." What I explained the cork does when used under circuit boards is to "isolate" the tiny electronics mounted on the circuit boards from vibration produced by the transformer. The cork does this by damping vibrations on the circuit board. I am just guessing here that the two technical courses you claim you took did not cover isolation and damping, am I right? And the use of cork under the transformer damps the vibration of the transformer, further isolating the rest of the chassis, including the circuit boards. So guess what? If you're having good luck with mu metal and cork i suggest you update your TuneLand Mission Statement to include isolation AND damping and get rid of the "all vibrations should be free to flow unimpeded" and "music is vibration" nonsense. As I have repeated ad infinitum I don't like the transformers in the box either, which is one reason I have gone to a transformer-less system. There are no transformers anywhere. Hel-loo!!

There is no real reason for you to be quite so argumentative. Calm down, everything is going to be OK.

"The only good vibration is a dead vibration." - Shannon Dickson in Stereophile 1996

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Want to repost my last entry, so to keep the results in the front row.

"I agree Chris, there has to be some kind of disorder going on with geoff and others who internet troll. I can't understand why someone would want to completely obliterate their reputation on a public forum. Especially on a forum that has to do with their line of work.

At the same time this serves to show audiophiles certain personalities within the hobby and how, I would say, more than a few make their living or at least in some twisted type of way have a need to be known. Whatever the case it is a little on the weird side to have two people do everything in their power to avoid the act of listening on an audio forum.

Anyway strange as their posting is, I've been having fun playing with both the Mu-metal & the Cork, and the other field tweaks I've been doing. It's good to revisit tweaks, even sometimes if they are tweaks we have moved away from somewhat.

I'm doing most of the testing in Room #2 where it's been easier to get to some of the parts, such as the wall outlets as well as transformers and other parts. So far the listening has resulted in "trade-offs" and not so much "improvements". As we have been saying, it's important when testing that one takes their time and doesn't get too caught up in the "flash" moment of change. This is also a case where I am able to test placement of the parts and other materials around the electronics, which is giving more to the signal than just trade-offs.

This tweak depends as much on the mindset of the person doing as it does the actual doing. Here's what I mean. If you take a stock unit all crammed together and built like a battleship and do the Mu-metal I can see why one would like it (maybe). However start to remove the restrains on that same unit and apply the Mu-metal the same way and the results are mixed. There's clearly a difference between the two mindsets, opening up and closing in. When I applied the Mu-metal to the stock unit I could hear into the music more, but it came with a signature that sounded more Hi Fi than raw notes. Good on one hand and a little disturbing on the other. Involved as the music was, I felt like I was in a Hi Fi box, and moving away from the room it felt like the music didn't carry with me. I'll get into this more later.

The cork is more interesting to me (well maybe), because this is the type of tuning I do every day and I was able to compare the cork to many other materials, such as balsa wood, corrugated cardboard, honeycomb wood, natural sea sponge and others. All of these have their own presention and comes down to how far someone wants to go in the area of transfer tuning.

Also a good time for a note. Just because something is called instrument cork, doesn't mean they all sound the same. This thread should be one that opens us up to many different thoughts and not limited to isolation or not, cause this would be a mistake and at best nearsighted. Both with the Mu-metal and the cork there are tons of adjustments to be made and this means neither of these two are isolating, but more interchanging or intermingling with the associated energy surrounding the area.

Another note which I refered to above, is the actual design of each component as far as layout. We need to spend more time looking at not only the parts used but also the layout of the parts and explore the math of electronic part spacing and function. There's a ton to be learned here when these components are taken out of their housings and spread out. And this is where the field and vibratory signatures should be studied by the industry and is not. To take the next step in design or understand why low mass or proper spacing is so important we should take a step back and look at the whole components in a box concept and pick it apart some."

Geoff, if you had something to share based on your personal experience, which we know you haven't done testing on Mu-metal and cork for yourself, or at least not in the last 8 years it would still be under scrutiny because of your past practices as with the Schumann Resonances and many other topics here. As I have not worked with the opinions you refered to, I don't wish to make a comment on, but they are welcome to tune with us. Sadly as far as geoff's opinion on topics they have been so severely discredited that he has been called a fraud by many in the hobby, so it would be hard for me to take his comments as anything other than what his reputation suggest. As a reference http://www.bing.com/search?q=geoff+kait+fraud&pc=Z161&form=ZGAIDF&install_date=20111120&iesrc=IE-SearchBox

Readers please feel free to read the threads here and other places and decide for yourselves, but as for myself I can't add geoff's comments as anything credible.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I'm on my last stages of the Mu-metal and cork adventure.

Just as a reference, I didn't have the time to dive into the big boys like I was going to (to many coals in the fire), but I had a fairly wide range of units to work with. I ended up working on two Technics (old and new school), Pioneer, Sony, Sherwood, Jolida and Audio Source. I went this route also because I didn't want to move around 50 pounders.

I started all my listening stock and took things to the next level by removing the cable ties and the tops off the units. I untwisted the wires and installed new hard wired power cords Bare Essence Type1 and Essence Ends. All the screws on every unit were tweaked to the tad loose, some screws removed completely. Even with just these minor tune-ups every amp became a different, more expressive animal.

have a client so will be back in a bit I hope, all good stuff

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green wrote:

I'm on my last stages of the Mu-metal and cork adventure.

Just as a reference, I didn't have the time to dive into the big boys like I was going to (to many coals in the fire), but I had a fairly wide range of units to work with. I ended up working on two Technics (old and new school), Pioneer, Sony, Sherwood, Jolida and Audio Source. I went this route also because I didn't want to move around 50 pounders.

I started all my listening stock and took things to the next level by removing the cable ties and the tops off the units. I untwisted the wires and installed new hard wired power cords Bare Essence Type1 and Essence Ends. All the screws on every unit were tweaked to the tad loose, some screws removed completely. Even with just these minor tune-ups every amp became a different, more expressive animal.

have a client so will be back in a bit I hope, all good stuff

michael green
MGA/Roomtune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

That's nice but I didn't see anything at all about mu metal or cork. Did I miss something? What type or brand of mu metal are you using, and what type of cork and what thickness and applications of both? How are you applying mu metal to transformers. How many layers, etc. That's a nice baloney sandwich but where's the baloney? Besides, the really big transformers are the biggest problems.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

I need to run to the shops today, but will get back to you on this a bit later.

While I'm gone why don't you fill folks in on your experiments and types of materials and how you do your applying?

We'll compare notes later and if I have missed anything can go back and make adjustments according to your specs, no problem. I'd like to make this as thorough as possible before moving on.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

That's what I thought. Thanks for clearing that up.

Geoff Kait
Machina Diabolica

No problem, so why even start or participate in threads geoff, if you have no experience on the topic?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green wrote:

No problem, so why even start or participate in threads geoff, if you have no experience on the topic?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I was the one who told the two dudes from Pittsburg how to apply the cork and the mu metal, you big silly. Have you been asleep at the wheel all year?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

And so you should be able to give an account for your testing, but alas once again you go for the spins, rather than the showing of your "advanced concepts". You ask why we suspect something is wrong in Denmark, because you have not provided any practical application of your own. You are indeed a used car salesman in audio. The intelligent products, someone else (six moons article). Mu-metal and Cork, an old tweak that goes back many years, nothing original. You step into tweaks as if you know something about them, but you know nothing more than anyone who can read and recite an article. You have zero advanced proof of anything.

As I said, I don't drink and I don't do drugs. What I do is explore and develop "advanced concepts & products" that people actually "do". I don't make up phony clients with quotes cause I have real clients. I would rather play truth than spend my life proudly shouting "fiction" and "it's all a mystery". I also spend my days smiling and enjoying music and cheering on those who enjoy it with me.

So the question is once again, are you going to show us something or do your usual audio forum trolling? I'm sitting here with Mu-metal (several kinds) and other shielding materials and have my finger ready to push the cart button on other suppliers of shielding if need be, and if you wish to actually do testing with us, we can proceed, but if you have nothing, can show nothing, can do nothing, then we will call you out like on the topic of your player, schumann generators and other failed audio persuits you claim.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

It's always best when folks perform their tests independently, don't you think. If you knew what you were doing you'd be dangerous. This is hilarious. Why would I reveal my secrets to you? Are you smoking crack? Besides, as I said if you actually paying attention you would have already figured out what you need to know. As for your angst and anger, I suggest a nice cold shower.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Conceits

geoff says "It's always best when folks perform their tests independently" followed by "Why would I reveal my secrets" followed by "It's all a mystery". And the general response to this is http://www.bing.com/search?q=Geoff+KAIT+Fraud&FORM=R5FD from the actual people who do indeed seem to be paying attention.

I don't see any reason to do crack over this, or be angst. It is what geoff created for himself come good or bad, and has nothing to do with the topic. Zero X multiple posts still = Zero, from the info we have seen from geoff.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Just curious, what does your education tell about the effect of the removed transformer on the signal moving through the transformer and what if anything can one do about it? Thanks in advance. Also, when you say EMF are you referring to the magnetic field or something else. I.e., were you using a gauss meter. Furthermore, when you say inches do you mean two inches, several inches, or perhaps eight or ten inches, or twelve inches? Again, thanks in advance.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

findings and pace moving forward

Thanks for the update and desire to keep this on topic, and productive Ron. As for myself, points will stay in the empirical listening domain as usual, but when Harold arrives early next month I'll see if he wants to move forward or move on to more important issues. We travel along at a pretty good clip and sometimes have to decide if it's worth our time to redo testing.

My findings were the same as what Ron is speaking of. You don't need to do much to experience the changing. The differences from the listening side might as well have been a gauss meter cause one could hear the change even as the transformers were being moved. I'm very use to listening sessions as it is what I do almost all day, so maybe I'm more sensitive when a change is happening, but with these particular sessions on several amplifiers I once again am not all that crazy about the shielding of the transformers and I might add the influence on other parts. This is certainly not a "one size fits all" tweak, and I think Ron would be in agreement here, if a person is not going to take the time to explore variables, than merely adding Mu-metal, they may not really be able to get their mind and ears around what is happening here.

Personally if moving more in depth on this forum, I think we should have several people involved from the perspective of their own set of conditions, because I have always found this to be more of a sliding rule of variables.

As a side note, I think it's great that Ron is exploring this hobby from a "doing" approach, and believe this is the correct way to write about the hobby. There's absolutely nothing wrong with theory, it's all good, but it can also be all consuming to the point where words in our minds become reality and sometimes we can bi-pass the doing and move into assumptions, and in a hobby like audio we have to always keep in mind, this is an action sport. There are simply too many variables in this sport to be drawing conclusions outside of our own experienced circumstances. This is why I work on the variables instead of getting too focused on one point of view from a very limited fixed place in time and conditions. Getting focused on any point of view is the end result, and having the tools and skills to do this hobby at will is I believe the extreme listeners goal.

I want to say, Ron I'm enjoying your pursuits more and more each day. I can see that science based brain feeding on every step. I'm seeing both teacher and student and that's about as good as it gets my friend.

a pleasure getting to know you

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

So far I haven't actually seen any results of your so called experiments with mu metal or cork. What's up with that. Most likely,if you don't mind my answering my own question is just more of the same posturing from Mr. Bluster. I can certainly see why he would know tow to Ron since Ron is one of those scientific types Michael is fond of collecting.

Have a nice day,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Of course I don't dispute Maxwell's equations. I'm only suggesting you might have measured the wrong parameter. It's the induced magnetic field that's the problem with both transformers and wire in general. That's why mumetal is efficacious in treating transformers - because of its high magnetic permeability. In fact that's what the mu in mumetal stands for - magnetic permeability. Thus mumetal improves the sound by reducing the strength of the induced magnetic field in proximity to the transformer and in the transformer itself. Therefore, I suspect you probably should be using a gauss meter to measure the magnetic field strength and attenuation.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

"attenuation", a rare word to hear from you geoff

Now there's a building block! Attenuation is a reduction of signal strength. It's a term used in variable tuning. Now your talken!

It's not a do or don't do, hit or miss, but a blending of forces to work in harmony. This is what the Tunees have been saying geoff. It's not a matter of "improves the sound" or "that's the problem", but a particular setting in sound and signal and the variable means to get to another sound.

wiki

In physics, attenuation (in some contexts also called extinction) is the gradual loss in intensity of any kind of flux through a medium.

and

In electrical engineering and telecommunications, attenuation affects the propagation of waves and signals in electrical circuits, in optical fibers, and in air.
________________________________________

don't you guys want to go deeper?

Variable tuning geoff. This is what audio is about and the point gets made on every topic. Tuning is the umbrella of putting into "action" audio.

What does a gauss meter do? It measures variances. Have you "used" a gauss meter geoff? When you speak of absolutes outside of the variable continuum I think is where people might have issues with your absolutes. I don't think anyone here questions what Mu-metal is or does, along with other shielding materials, but the question at least I have is why you would suggest an inflexible formula for something in flux?

this is where I challenge both you and May on these topics

Debates over a broken system of sound are marginalize in meaning because sound is not broken, but merely at some range of performance, a varied point in strength. When the two of you (may & geoff) build the case of broken to be fixed, it's an incomplete assessment of a process in action. A still snapshot in time, not motion and/or time continuum based itself. Here's where your theories of absolutes and "fixed" are problematic, evaluation or estimation of the nature is just that. You may be throwing a limited educated dart, but it's still throwing a dart at a moving target.

Let's spend some time talking about what the signal is and what it is doing and the meaning as such and move past the 6th grade wiki reading. Wiki is great and I love it as a reference and meaning, but what do you guys have in the actual doing tank that supports your talk is something that always comes full circle. I mean reading something all of us know, or should know doesn't make or break the "ED" deal for me. Neither does clipping parts out of partial context to prove a point or opinion. You guys all claim to be educated and certainly posture that thought, well then show it.

Let's "do" this project together in real time a share the actual sound results and move past the beginner stage. By "doing" this we can all build a healthy understanding that goes beyond these very basic schoolings. Why play in the sand box when you can harvest a crop?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

so, now you are challenging me and May? Are you smoking crack? I have already spent quite enough time talking about the signal. however, you are either very dense or pretending to be dense. We have been challenging YOU, you big lug, at every turn. but you refuse to actually debate the subjects under discussion, instead coming up with non sequitur arguments that say nothing. lets do this project together? Are you nuts? I thought you already did the project. I'm afraid your on your own, pal. A self educated man is like a defendant who insists on representing himself in court - he has a fool for a client.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica
Advanced Audio Conceits

LOL, seems to me geoff & May have been challenged ever since they started posting on audio forums.

geoff's view of education (my opinion) is a little...well stupid LOL. Everyone is self educated and the fool would be the one who is not smart enough to understand this. There's a terribly heightened amount of BS that floats around about "higher" education. I'm glad I got the schooling I did, but have to admit that formal schooling only got me thinking there is much more than schooling when it comes to learning. The real smarts is indeed those things I have done on my own or through applying the schooling. A person would have to be pretty stupid to think sitting in a class and passing tests gives them smarts. Smarts of any kind, is what a person does with those brain cells.

Someone who comes to an audio forum and has to resort to stupid picture posting as their represention of brains, pretty much is their own judge and jury.

Like we have said, any time you wish to get into the listening part of this hobby, we're happy to have you.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak wrote:

Geoff:

A Gauss meter is precisely synonymous with an EMF meter.

So yes, I used a "Gauss" meter.

This reply is not to embarrass you. The only reason I even own such a gadget is from my EE studies and sure hobby. Most non-EE types I am sure would also be confused.

Cheers,

Ron

Really? I was under the distinct impression a gauss meter was a different animal. What are the units that your EMF meter measures? It doesn't actually make sense that the magnetic field falls off rapidly as you claim from a large transformer. Mans that is precisely why mu metal is used to wrap transformers, I.e., to absorb (most of) the induced magnetic field. It also explains why relocating the transformer doesn't solve the problem for the transformer itself. Follow?

From our friend Wikipedia -

"Electromagnetic fields can be generated by AC or DC currents. An EMF meter can measure AC electromagnetic fields, which are usually emitted from man-made sources such as electrical wiring, while gaussmeters or magnetometers measure DC fields, which occur naturally in Earth's geomagnetic field and are emitted from other sources where direct current is present."

From the Wiki page for mu metal,

"The high permeability of mu-metal provides a low reluctance path for magnetic flux, leading to its use in magnetic shields against static or slowly varying magnetic fields. Magnetic shielding made with high-permeability alloys like mu-metal works not by blocking magnetic fields but by providing a path for the magnetic field lines around the shielded area. Thus, the best shape for shields is a closed container surrounding the shielded space. The effectiveness of mu-metal shielding decreases with the alloy's permeability, which drops off at both low field strengths and, due to saturation, at high field strengths. Thus, mu-metal shields are often made of several enclosures one inside the other, each of which successively reduces the field inside it. Because mu-metal saturates at such low fields, sometimes the outer layer in such multilayer shields is made of ordinary steel. Its higher saturation value allows it to handle stronger magnetic fields, reducing them to a lower level that can be shielded effectively by the inner mu-metal layers.

RF magnetic fields above about 100 kHz can be shielded by Faraday shields: ordinary conductive metal sheets or screens which are used to shield against electric fields.[3] Superconducting materials can also expel magnetic fields by the Meissner effect, but require cryogenic temperatures."

You needn't worry too much about embarrassing me as my skin has gotten rather thick over the years. Lol By the same token I have no real interest in embarrassing you, either. I do think it's fair to let the chips fall where they may, however.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Here's a six moons article by Steve Marsh on the pros and cons of wrapping mu metal around the offending transformer in the case of transformer hum. This is a particular case where there is a high level of (audible) magnetic hum, but mu metal is also effective (in improving the sound) in cases where the magnetic hum is inaudible as the radiated magnetic field is present even without audible hum.

Note editor's comment at the end of the article,

"Publisher's comment: Perhaps Steve's concrete example will encourage manufacturers of fine hifi components to pre-install more effective shielding around known high-radiation offenders so customers needn't retrofit unsightly solutions. It's one thing to say that one knows one's gear to radiate strongly and hence recommends distance (which obviously does nothing to the radiation per se). It would seem altogether more professional to actually do something about it during the design and implementation phase." - Ed

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/lessemf/4.html

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green wrote:

LOL, seems to me geoff & May have been challenged ever since they started posting on audio forums.

geoff's view of education (my opinion) is a little...well stupid LOL. Everyone is self educated and the fool would be the one who is not smart enough to understand this. There's a terribly heightened amount of BS that floats around about "higher" education. I'm glad I got the schooling I did, but have to admit that formal schooling only got me thinking there is much more than schooling when it comes to learning. The real smarts is indeed those things I have done on my own or through applying the schooling. A person would have to be pretty stupid to think sitting in a class and passing tests gives them smarts. Smarts of any kind, is what a person does with those brain cells.

Someone who comes to an audio forum and has to resort to stupid picture posting as their represention of brains, pretty much is their own judge and jury.

Like we have said, any time you wish to get into the listening part of this hobby, we're happy to have you.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Sorry if you don't like my pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words. I don't like pretenders. So I guess we're even.

Knowledge is what's left after you forgot all the things you learned in school. He not busy being born is busy dying.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Hi Ron

This isn't confusing at all to the guy who understands gauss meters and the measurements of, which you obviously do. Good reporting my friend. A gauss meter, should actually be one of the first tools the audiophile should reach for when learning about their system and the hobby in general.

I've always found it interesting that the audiophiles claiming to be EE's don't bring some of the major parts of practical Electrical Engineering into the hobby. This, if I may say so, is going to separate you from the audiophile crowd in a good way (at least here on this forum), and hopefully the others will take your lead.

Than again, I look at your last statement Ron "this is a confusing topic to be fair" and say, that I have run into many of these topics that the audiophile has not even scratched the surface on. As in the case of another thread where they talk of mysteries and the how's & why's of audio and yet don't even know of all the different types of testing. Of course they're confused and mystified. They are so because they have limited themselves to participating on a platform that doesn't take into account the whole picture, or should I say a completed science on the topics. They spin a theory without the actual practical application.

again, very good reporting Ron

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Sorry to,interrupt the mutual adoration society meeting but something is wrong somewhere since it is obvious that the magnetic field is affecting electronic elements in the amplifier or preamp chassis, just as the article in Six Moons points out. Perhaps you erred in your measurements. Obviously the induced field falls off according to the inverse square law so the only issue is what the field strength is to begin with and how far away one measures. Duh! You're not actually saying there is no effect are you? Oh, by the way, aerospace engineers like myself get plenty of electrical engineering in school. As opposed to Electrical Engineers who get little if any mechanical engineering as I believed you admitted early., while I can appreciate that a friend of yours has a mechanical engineering background. And as opposed to mr. green who took a couple of technical courses, or so he says.

You keep referring to EMF and that EMF is the most important thing in audio. I trust you are not implying that the magnetic field is the same thing as EMF.

The only real question is what is the magnetic field strength at distance x from the transformer and what is the threshold for when the magnetic field strength no longer affects the sound. For someone who was all set to make his own Schumann frequency generator without realizing what was involved you know what with the length of the wavelength, I am not sure I am totally on board your EE engineering education to the extent you say you are. Since I am the only one here who has actually performed experiments with mumetal and transformers I think I choose to disregard yours and Ron's comments if that is not being too harsh. I am not trying to embarrass you.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I thought it was supposed to be about how to get the best sound possible !!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Ron, you seem to be minimizing the magnetic field produced by transformers with your measurements. I actually find this rather odd since you apparently support Mr. Green's removal of the transformer entirely from the component and relating it somewhere else. Why do you think Mr. Green relocates the transformer? Hint: see the article by Steve Marsh at 6 Moons I linked to yesterday.

Onwards and upwards,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Watching May try to get back to sound, yet has never referenced music with any of us, and geoff caught in another credibility spin.

One can almost smell the smoke coming off of geoff's fingers as he desperately tries to wiki his way out.

This is better than the GOP debates.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I look forward to, and hope this particular debate continues as I believe we are getting somewhere in the credibility department that gets started, then somehow is let go before the answers are in.

If we have a place to refer to, it makes it easier to see if someone has the credentials, he or she claims.

for example

Geoff Kait has stated his schooling stopped in the 70's, so we from that point forward should be looking at geoff's experiences to see if these plus his schooling measures up to his statements.

I think at least a one time background fact finding is telling, so we don't run these topics from assumptions but fact.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Can't we move beyond credentials? This is getting a little silly. Either the transformer generates a magnetic field that interferes with the sound and distorts it ot it doesn't. Time to cut the crap. Which is it? As I said, I'm apparently the only one who has actual experience with mu metal and transformers here. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that moving the transformer one foot or ten feet from the chassis will not prevent the transformer's magnetic field from infecting the wire inside the transformer. Duh! "I don't have to read the article." That's an interesting attitude. Tip for Michael: when you're non technical like yourself taking two technical courses is like pissing up a rope. How can you understand a technical course without a technical background? Duh? That's akin to sitting through two classes of Greek 301 and claiming you are fluent in Greek. What I'd like to know is how can someone like Mr. Green attack my credentials when he has NO credentials? Hel-looo!. OK, you guys can carry on with the Mutt and Jeff routine.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Ron, you said :-

>>> “To be fair, I don't think any other members at present have EE backgrounds though; outside of myself and either yourself; as you seem to know what I'm talking about or your associate Harold.” <<<

Where on earth did you get the impression that you and Michael are the only members who have EE backgrounds ??? AND that ONLY people with EE backgrounds can ‘know what you are talking about’.

I can quite understand how the ‘contributor’ David could have had some sense that all does not seem to be quite believable about Michael. I would suspect that David has the ‘feeling’ that things don’t seem to be real but that he can’t quite put his finger on what exactly is real or not real.

You, Ron, however, don’t seem to sense anything unusual at all. Not quite as enthusiastic a supporter of Michael as is ChrisS but you don’t seem to question anything about Michael’s writings at all !!

You replied to David :-

>>> “I personally am a Research Scientist with an excellent education as well as an undergrad degree in Electrical Engineering…… What I do see in Michael is a very unique way of approaching this hobby and to a pretty decent success judging by his client list alone.” <<<

I personally do not challenge Michael’s “unique way of approaching this hobby”. Anyone can have a ‘unique way of approaching this hobby” without being criticised for it !! And, just because others of us choose not to publish our client list does not mean that we don’t have any ‘clients’ or ‘customers’.

Let me make it absolutely clear. I am NOT against anyone having a ‘unique way of approaching this hobby” UNTIL, UNTIL that is they claim that their way is the ONLY answer !!

But, Ron, having a “unique way of approaching this hobby” does not mean that Michael’s method is THE method, that Michael’s truth is THE truth and that Michael’s answer is THE answer !! Which is what he has claimed !!! Michael has claimed that tuning is THE answer. As in :-

>>> “When we say "tuning" we really do mean it. It is "THE" answer and what allows all energy to work together in a "fair exchange".” <<<

Michael has also replied to me :-

>>> “If you had any understanding you would know that tuning "IS" the science open to all ways. That's why it's tuning you imbecile.” <<<

>>> “Think about it, a change was made. There's the proof of tunability.” <<<

When a change is made, that is all it is, a proof that a change has been made. It is not PROOF of tunability. It is PROOF of a change !! But Michael, constantly, uses the word ‘tuning’ and peppers his paragraphs with the truism sentences of “That is what one has to do with musical instruments – one has to ‘tune’ them”. As though repeating that, endlessly, makes it automatically fit and confirm ‘the tuning of the audio system’. Which ChrisS copies, also endlessly !!!

Can I put it into some sort of perspective.

Michael has discovered what Peter and I and Geoff and others have discovered – that everything affects everything else. Michael has discovered what Peter and I and Geoff and others have discovered - that everything one does, in the listening environment, has an effect on the sound !! Michael has discovered that if he does A he will change the sound, if he does B he will change the sound, if he does C he will change the sound, if he does D he will change the sound – and so on.

But, from what I understand, Michael does not know exactly WHICH of A or B or C or D etc to recommend to get to the exact sound any specific individual is searching for. So, all he can recommend is for them to try A and if they don’t get the exact sound they are wanting to then try B, or try C or try D. Even Michael admits he has to do that !!!

>>> “These are Tuning Blocks!

I would recommend reading up on when and why they are used by some of the members up here. I for example change their positioning anytime I want a presentation change. For example if my drums are sounding tight but I want more air and body I will adjust for that. The key to this is to get use to the sound of your blocks and come up with your own voicing plans based on the sound they are giving you at the time of listening. You might find (I do) that they sound great with 4 on some recordings and the next you might favor 3. I basically learn the sound of each block I use and then as I'm listening make any change accordingly.” <<<

In other words. Yes, he does this and it changes the sound. Yes, he does that and it changes the sound – no one is disputing that. i.e 4 blocks on some recordings and 3 blocks for other recordings. Michael now calls that “tuning”. And, because one CAN vary the sound depending on what one changes, depending on what materials one uses, depending on what one moves, then he refers to it as “variable tuning”.
But, it is not THE answer, or THE method or THE truth !!!!!

To be continued,

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Michael wrote:

>>> “...... in audio or any physical activity comes down to one simple answer.” <<<

>>> “The WHY? In audio or any physical activity comes down to one simple answer. Something I brought up on Stereophile a few times now and got jumped on for my terminology, yet when I revisit the question and do a little studying I come back to the same answer. The term that sums it up for me is "Vibratory Code".<<<

Now, he introduces what he refers to as the “Vibratory Code” !! As a ‘simple answer’

In my opinion and experience, there is nothing as simple, in audio, as a ‘simple answer’.

However, even though Michael refers his solution as a ‘simple answer’, he then constantly resorts to bluster, waffling, boasting and exaggeration in order to try to ‘puff out’ his ‘simple answer’ concept.

I suggest you look back at all Michael’s posting since he began posting on the Stereophile Forum (since January 2011 to my knowledge).

Michael has been Everywhere, met Everyone, tried Everything, been to Tons of classes, attended Tons of courses, been involved with and visited Tons of scientific labs, met Tons of scientists – and so on.

Michael stated in answer to one of your questions:-

>>> “Our wire is based on 22guage heat & vibratory treated if that helps.” <<<

You, Ron, replied :-

>>> “22 gauge, check. I'm afraid I'm going to need a pointer on vibratory treatment though.

I apologize for my ignorance to the topic. This area of audio especially is very new to me. I never encountered that in VLSI design either..so perhaps its analogue term?” <<<

Ron, you seem to have presumed that YOU might be ignorant about some ‘analogue’ term – that Michael must have more technical knowledge than you have.

Much earlier in his postings, Michael encouraged people to go onto his home pages and read about what someone called “sonic beaver” was doing.

Michael said on his home pages 08/07/15 in reply to “sonic” asking why Michael recommended plugging all equipment into just one AC power outlet instead of separating into two outlets.

>>> “In physics we learn that there are more forces at play than what we picture in our minds as "the audio signal". Before you had two separate electrical sources fighting for the same space domain. Breaking it down, you have the Earth's magnetic field wanting to be in-tune with the other (mini) sources of electromagnetic field. You see it's not really a bunch of "fields" but "A" field with many parts feeding into the overall. The "field" the electronic parts are creating are done within the same core function of the Earth's and solar interactions. Their not so much creating their own but more responding to the generated field of the Earth/Solar relationship. We don't create magnetic anything, but borrow the energy that is already there. Basically giving birth to baby fields all part of the same field. This is why I don't use the word "isolation" in regards to "the" electromagnetic field. There's one parenting field and all the activations that we harness using that field.

Your system wants to be in "harmony" with the Earth's (parenting) fundamental forces. In audio we think of discrete as being the answer, but in reality discrete doesn't really exist. Another myth about our hobby unfortunately. When going from two strips to one, you removed a layer of fighting. A fight that is much bigger than 2 or 3 feet, but actually a fight that plays out in the overall Earth's field structure.” <<<

No wonder David queried Michael’s technical credentials !!!!!!!!!!

I see that you, Ron, will be investigating the technique of removing the transformer to position it outside it’s housing.

You say :-

>>> “My goal is to move the transformer 12 inches or so away from the rest of the circuits, as the EMF Gauss readings reduce exponentially and at that distance should have minimal impact on the circuitry of the rest of the unit.” <<<

You refer to ‘the distance should have minimal impact on the circuitry”. Circuitry – meaning therefore any neighbouring circuit and components carrying the signal (musical information). Meaning ‘an effect on the audio signal’.

So, logically, you must be thinking that any ‘field’ from the transformer must have an adverse effect on any neighbouring circuitry. So, logically, one moves the transformer (and it’s adverse field) away from any neighbouring circuitry. So, logically, if one DID LEAVE the transformer inside the equipment, there would be the adverse field left interfering with the circuitry (the audio signal). So, logically, one would consider ‘dealing with’ that adverse field from the transformer – whilst it is inside the equipment case ??????????? NO ????????? Or, is it the other way round ? By you moving the transformer out of the equipment case, away from any circuitry, that you will be reducing the adverse field (from the circuitry) affecting the actual transformer ??????????? In that case, by moving the transformer out of the equipment case do you, Ron, feel that that is all that is necessary for you to do ???

So, in your opinion Ron which is it ? Is it an adverse field from the transformer affecting the circuitry and components in the equipment or it is an adverse field from the circuitry and components in the equipment affecting the signal going through the transformer ???

The way I interpret Michael’s techniques is that he says ‘don’t block off the adverse field’. Leave it alone. Whether the transformer is inside the equipment case or outside the equipment case, ‘don’t block off the adverse field’. Try to ‘tune it’ in with the rest of the ‘sound’ !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that what you are going to do, Ron ????????? Because if you want to follow Michael’s suggestions, you will need to do what the person called ‘sonic beaver’ is doing. Look back at the photos ‘sonic’ has posted during these past few weeks. Sonic has his transformers, outside the equipment case, balanced on a number of wooden blocks, and with other wooden blocks positioned on top of the same transformers – to be moved around and repositioned as required – from one recording to another. Following Michael’s ‘variable tuning’. I don’t have a problem with ‘sonic’ doing whatever he wants to do, and he appears to be as happy as a ‘sand boy’ doing it. But, the amount of molly coddling of just the transformers – whilst leaving other significant areas completely neglected – seems to be completely out of all proportion.

Your thinking seems to be that once you move the transformers outside the equipment case, (this 12 inches you refer to), that you believe the problem of an adverse field, will be solved. That is not Michael’s thinking and yet you applaud Michael – as in :-

>>> “To be fair, I don't think any other members at present have EE backgrounds though; outside of myself and either yourself; as you seem to know what I'm talking about or your associate Harold.” <<<

You may have a research science and some EE background, Ron, but you seem to exhibit some naivety as to who you are going to take notice of in your pursuit of good sound !!

Of course, it is important to pick up ideas and knowledge from whichever source you can and I can’t emphasise too greatly the word Everything !!! Everything you do – or introduce – into the listening environment will affect the sound.

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Hi May,
Do you play a musical instrument?

>>> “Hi May,

Do you play a musical instrument?” <<<

ChrisS.

I have already answered your question in the section headed Judging the Sound in July 2015.

You said :-

>>> “Having grown up and lived with people who sing, play piano and various stringed instruments, I have to say that what Michael does makes absolutely perfect sense.
Like tuning any instrument, you hear the change instantly.
The answer, May?
As Michael has always said, just listen.” <<<

I answered :-

How about having ACTUALLY done those things, personally ? I have !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And still do !!!!!!

You said :-

>>> “Like tuning any instrument, you hear the change instantly” <<<

I answered :-

You are talking to someone who DOES !!!!!

I will now go on to say. As well as playing musical instruments I also have considerable knowledge and listening experience with audio !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Ron said :-

>>> “Yes…… By following the scientific method, my hypothesis is in fact the transformer has a negative impact on the adjacent circuitry in consumer audio equipment. I further hypothesize therefore by relocating it to 12" away according to empirical data will be a sufficient distance to measure any effects to the digital information...aka the music.

I also believe there are many many other tweaks and tuning that can be done. This particular one just happens to lay within my realm of expertise and comfort zone; and costs very very little money to try. I am also having a lot of FUN along the way...and DOING and LISTENING to hear the minute changes in the music.” <<<

Thank you. Now I know where your thinking is. No problems with your approach. I am just curious now as to what you will do with the transformer when you have positioned it outside the equipment. Keep us informed.

Ron :-

>>> “As for Michael, whom also refer to many times, he is merely trying to improve the digital information by doing methods and practices that are in HIS comfort zone, experience, and learned expertise.” <<<

I don’t understand the reference to Michael “merely trying to improve the digital information” !!! Where did you get that impression from ? That he is only looking at the digital information ? My understanding has been that he claims to be dealing with ALL music, in whatever form .

Ron :-

>>> “I also believe there are many many other tweaks and tuning that can be done” <<<

Could that be you agreeing with me that Michael’s techniques are NOT the only answer, or NOT the only method or NOT the only truth ????????? That there might, possibly, be “many, many other tweaks” as you say ???????????

Where I challenge Michael is that he emphasises so much and so many times that his method is THE method and that his answer is THE answer and that his truth is THE truth that people are actively encouraged NOT to try or do any other ‘treatments’ !!!

Nothing to do with saying that there is anything wrong with people

>>> “DOING THINGS in this hobby that cost little money in comparison to high end gear that could possibly have a POSITIVE IMPACT and IMPROVE the listening experience?” <<<

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

Sorry, May, I forgot about your response!

Can you tune your instruments with your products and procedures?

I'm a little confused by your answer to May. Why are you ignoring the effects of the induced magnetic field on the wire inside the transformer? Do you think that by ignoring it it will just go away? Or perhaps you don't think it's an issue. Share, share.

Sorry for the interruption. Please carry on.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

So May is upset that I have been involved with tons of music....OK....I think

I've always felt it a big plus to be involved.

Geoff is upset because of my schooling.....a little creepy

I enjoyed my education and continuing of.

My tutors, teachers and masters were and are some of the coolest people, I'm very lucky and fortunate to have had this style of training.

Hopefully it has come through on the recordings, in the halls and listening rooms, as well as my products.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

goeff says

"Can't we move beyond credentials?"

mg

I'm not sure, geoff. We haven't seen yours.

On this particular thread your sorely lacking in the doing department, and I would need to see you in a lab situation before I would personally be able to think of you with any credibity. Based on past threads and this one I don't see any expertise or even willingness to perform experiments at all. Honestly I haven't seen any proof that you have worked with any type of shielding beyond your say so.

point and case

You are unable to describe the sonic effects as well as any of the variables, of which there are many. I can pick up the cage I have here and give a description of the changes in sound as I do so and have. You on the other hand are spending your time trying to disprove others instead of giving your real time results.

Again you and May are puting the spin on, instead of the actual "doing", and I believe thes are the main reasons that both of you are called into question. Anyone May, Geoff or David can trash talk, but it still comes down to actually doing and you guys run for the hills when this is suggested.

I again honestly don't see anyone here confused only geoff and May telling people they are. For two years now people have asked for the demo and for two years nothing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May said

"Michael said on his home pages 08/07/15 in reply to “sonic” asking why Michael recommended plugging all equipment into just one AC power outlet instead of separating into two outlets.

“In physics we learn that there are more forces at play than what we picture in our minds as "the audio signal". Before you had two separate electrical sources fighting for the same space domain. Breaking it down, you have the Earth's magnetic field wanting to be in-tune with the other (mini) sources of electromagnetic field. You see it's not really a bunch of "fields" but "A" field with many parts feeding into the overall. The "field" the electronic parts are creating are done within the same core function of the Earth's and solar interactions. Their not so much creating their own but more responding to the generated field of the Earth/Solar relationship. We don't create magnetic anything, but borrow the energy that is already there. Basically giving birth to baby fields all part of the same field. This is why I don't use the word "isolation" in regards to "the" electromagnetic field. There's one parenting field and all the activations that we harness using that field.

Your system wants to be in "harmony" with the Earth's (parenting) fundamental forces. In audio we think of discrete as being the answer, but in reality discrete doesn't really exist. Another myth about our hobby unfortunately. When going from two strips to one, you removed a layer of fighting. A fight that is much bigger than 2 or 3 feet, but actually a fight that plays out in the overall Earth's field structure.”

thank you May here is where this thread can be found

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f10-audio-around-the-world

also would recommend

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f3-home-audio-systems

and for more www.tuneland.info

On these threads people can read real time accounts of listeners, listening and tuning. We welcome those curious to join and begin tuning their systems, based on step by step real time tuning.

If readers wish to pick up on when Sonic received his package you can start on page http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t258p255-tuning-my-musical-journey 18. Also I would recommend reading Hiend001 system, which is using more of my designs http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t169-hiend001-s-system .

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

may said

"The way I interpret Michael’s techniques is that he says ‘don’t block off the adverse field’"

mg

This is not and never has been what michael says. Michael refers to energy as being in-tune or out-of-tune. Michael doesn't paint the picture of energy being anything than what it is.

May says

"Michael says HIS answer"

mg

Again not what michael says.

May, where you are lost is, your trying to paint pictures that aren't there. Now when people read (since you like to yell at people lol) michael never says HIS Answer, but that he follows the teaching and techniques of tuning as THE answer.

May just because you have spent your life painting audio mysteries, doesn't mean that all must be lost in the wilderness with you and geoff. Even if you were successful in fooling people into believing what you want them to believe about michael, it doesn't change that listeners are "doing" and finding "tuning" to be the method for adjusting variables. I'm not sure how many horses your going to beat to death trying to say michael is saying something he is not, but someday your going to make your way through the whole corral.

Can I repeat a sentiment that has been made recently. You and geoff are somewhat retired being that you are in your late 80's or so, right? No disrespect but instead of painting negatives, why don't you spend your remaining years painting positives. The quests you and geoff have taken up against me and others are futile and old news to be very plain. It really just boils down to two old folks wanting to out ego someone for whatever reason, and trying to paint pictures to a crowd who could care less. Anyone who cares if MG is right or wrong has completely missed the point of why MG is here.

Do you really want me to say a million times, I'm here for the variables and how to adjust them? My God you and geoff are relentless to prove a point that changes absolutely nothing. One, you've picked the worst opponent you could have possibly chosen, mainly because I'm no opponent. I'm not even a peer. Geoff doesn't even have an in-room stereo system and you won't talk about yours if you even have one. Don't you see that spreads us about as far apart as you can get in this industry and hobby.

May, the only thing you have ever had to hang onto is you saying it's all a mystery, and you saying I think I am the answer to audio, both of which you are so far off the radar on it's embarrassing to keep going on.

There comes a time in life where you have to claim what is yours. Your either happy and happy for others or your not and you want others to not be as well. When you come here to paint a picture I can promise you that I and everyone else would like to see that picture be about you and your progress. You and geoff coming here to spend your time trying to paint a picture of me that isn't, is not going to be what the intelligent people will see. What they are seeing is two older folks not able to stop spinning. Sure you might drag me into it because I'm here, but the reader knows I'm nothing to do with your spin. If I disappeared tomorrow what did you tell the readers about you?

May Geoff, if all you have are false pictures about somebody else that you have created, what do you have?

Sometimes you guys break my heart, I'm not kidding, when I think this is all you have. I hope someday I find something more. I want to say "way to go" about something somewhere in your threads, but when I have to answer to the same ole spin, it just tells me to let the old die, their way.

I hope that you both give me the hope that you care about music. If not than I have to say that this particular chapter has been very sad for me.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

A little defensive, Commander. I suggest you take a cooling off period and try to yet your train back on the tracks. Maybe take a vacation from your troubles.

Have a nice day.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

LOL

The point is, neither of you have shown any credentials, systems or much more than internet spinning.

This cast the doubts hundreds have had about you, as well as the inabilty the both of you have to engage in much past audio warfare. Without this credibility and with the continuing of spins, the only conclusion one can come to is what the people say about you as being true.

I'm truly sorry you feel the need to do these spins, and think they replace real answers, but there comes a point when it simply is what it is and more than likely both you and May are too old and stuck in your ways to care at this stage of the game.

Shoot, I don't know, I would guess though that perhaps once again you pointing to mean & hungry is more a reflection on your own feeings about yourself. Who knows I'm not your doctor, just someone who is sad that you have not found your happy place in life.

other than that, I am having a nice day, thanks

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/