Hi Ron,
The way I understand what Michael does is he's like an instrument maker who can modify a $125 Made-in-the-Orient violin and make it sound way, way better than a Strad. If you were offered a deal to buy this $125 violin with a DIY instruction booklet and a kit of modding materials for way, way, way less than a Strad, would you buy it? If money were no object, then owning a Strad would be nice, but most violinists would probably go for the modded cheap instrument, especially if it can be demonstrated to sound much better than the Strad.
If you're involved with making music, eg. singing or playing an instrument, and especially if you are an instrument maker, or even if you listen to a lot of "live" music, you may understand that Michael's method makes total sense. If you've ever been at a live music event where the acoustics of the venue rendered the music pale and lifeless, then it doesn't matter how great a voice or instrument you have, there will be no "music"!
As someone who's been around live music most of my life, I get what Michael does.

I'd get the $29 "plastic" player and do all the mods, especially when it can be easily demonstrated that even a modest budget spent on this player and mods can hugely outperform a single component of equal value. As I currently do not have the circumstances that will allow me to do so (living in a rental suite with a growing family), I can only do whatever I can do easily (as mention in my post on Tuneland) that will improve the sound of the system (you can see my post about my system on Tuneland as well) I already have.
If you don't intend on taking apart any of your components to tune them, then you get what you get, but from what I gather from Michael's extensive experience, he's suggesting that you get the "most" tune-able player possible in the Magnavox. Like an instrument maker shaping a specific piece of wood, the Mag is only raw material to be shaped into a fine sounding instrument.
If a "plastic" violin can be made to sound better than a Strad, even when one doesn't have any real instrument-making skills, why not?

It's fun to be able to make enough changes so relatively easily to whatever you have on hand to get a palpable improvement to the sound of one's system. I think it's great to know that one can also systematically change the equipment, listening environment, and oneself to get that "concert hall" or "recording studio" sound or any sound you want with a methodical approach and very simple technology.

Way before I heard about Michael Green and "tuning", when my wife was just learning to play the violin, she was renting various violins of different levels of "quality" and price to get used to the their sound and feel. The one she settled on was of "mid-level" quality, "Made In The Orient" and had a wonderful tone. Many lessons later when my wife's playing was beyond the squeaks and squawks of her first steps, we decided to look for her own violin. She was able to bring home and try out a few good quality violins that we thought we could afford and as she tried each we noticed they each had their strengths and weaknesses, and even somethings that were intangible where we thought "That sounded great, but there's something not quite right here..." She hummed and hawed for awhile, until someone with a much better ear than either of us pointed out an old violin that was hidden in the back of a second hand shop. When my wife brought it home, I was a bit surprised to see an old, dirty, beat up violin that had a crack in it's body!! But the sound was wonderful and it only cost $100!
My wife knows a number of instrument makers and one luthier offered to do repairs at a very reasonable cost. Wow, I heard this violin at all it's various stages of repair and modification and it's become a beautiful instrument sounding well beyond it's initial cost and the cost of restoration, and way better than anything she's played before.

I first read about Michael and his approach to sound and music not long ago (last year?). Right away, it just made total sense to me.

I don't think it matters what equipment you have, there's always something that can be done to improve it's sound. It would appear that because of Michael's extensive experience with the Magnavox player and Sherwood receiver, his familiarity with their build and sound allows him to guide you in the exact changes you need to make to these components to get very specific changes in the sound. That's how he and others familiar with tuning can guide you in every single step of the way.

Hi Guys

Thank you for the thread and responses, both here and TuneLand.

I'm not sure if Ron is aware yet that we have several components in tuning mode at all times ranging from as is pointed to $29.00 to currently $25.000.00. One of the reasons I'm careful about what pictures I post and products I talk about is because I don't wish for my fellow high end audio friends to think that I am gutting their components making them look like they are incomplete. "I have stated this before here"

If you scroll through the listeners posts you will see a wide range as well. One that we're having fun with right now is a gentleman who is successfully tuning Audio Research with Sonus Fabers (little more the $29.00).

Here's a peek of some tunable setups http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems . You'll notice we go all the way up to multi-million dollar studios. Honestly we don't look at the price-tag when listening. We judge things by how tunable they are all the way through beginner tweaks for those who don't want to go as far in the extreme tuning department. Harold's systems for example are Audio Note and other components in that same price range. However on the design side our focus many times instead of being on the popular component side, which pretty much changes ever year included with new sales pitch, is to present a method that applies to the entire range of componentry and system environments out there (no easy task). I'm flattered that listeners many times buy into my current tuned systems, but this is far from as Ron said on TuneLand "drinking the Kool-aid". It's natural I would think that you would see many active posters on TuneLand using and talking about the same system I am, cause they are able to spend a lot of time referencing their sound with others, but this isn't by design. We're not a dealer for Sherwood or Magnavox, just blown away by their flexibility.

I believe one of Ron's concerns is that we are leaving out other components, but this again is not our intent. It's a time issue. Fact is I'm as current on tuning NAD up until the NAD c515BEE CDP, which is the last NAD product I have personally played with. Before this I have worked on several of their products with great success and even further back was a dealer for NAD, so there is no bias against them or any other products. I can't tune (make variable) every product in this hobby obviously, and so my personal choices come down to the most tunable ones I can find through doing various listening sessions and different types of comparisons. This is by no means an intented put down of other products, just a means to an end. As I said, if people follow my personal path of referencing that is up to them and honestly has led to a lot of super tweaked systems as can also be seen on TuneLand.

If there is a cult following on TuneLand it is based on others personal listening and listening skills, as well as being open minded enough to look beyond the norm of plug & play. "Kool-aid" lol hardly, more like fresh grapes, pure water with a mix of cheeses and crackers I would call it.

Here's my view and it's my own based on what we have experience with all kinds of great and fun listeners. Don't be unhappy because we do, be happy because we do with passion and the love of music first. It's very rare to see any tunee pushing anything without an experienced first hand, seasoned, closeup encounter so please take the time to visit or in your case Ron, revisit what the tune really is, why it is and what it's intention is. But also please do realize TuneLand is about tuning and not "IF" tuning should or shouldn't be. It's not some random forum where you come up and throw out a bunch of off-beat audiophile suggestions. It's a focused forum based and biased to tuning and my adventures (being the founder of the tune) and those who also tune, becoming masters of their systems through these methods. People come to TuneLand to learn specifically about the tuning methods & our particular designs and applications. We're not Stereophile, or Audio Circle, or AA or others. We are MGA/RoomTunes forum.

hopefully this helps

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

OK, so what's the difference between Tuning and Tweaking, why are they frequently mentioned in the same breath as if they are the same thing? OK, here's a quick tutorial on why tweaking and tuning should not be used interchangeably and how to recognize a tweak.

1. Mu metal is not tuning. It's a tweak. It reduces the magnetic field. Remember, the only good magnetic field is a dead magnetic field. Magnetic fields should not be free to flow around the room. They are not vibrations.m they are not sound.

2. Scattered background laser light interferes with the pure reflected laser beam and hurts the sound. Thus, you guessed it, the only good scattered laser light is a dead one.

3. Vibration isolation is not tuning. It's a tweak. I don't have to say it, do I? Just in case, "the only good vibration is a dead vibration."

4. The clever clock, the quantum temple bell, the Morphic message labels - they're all tweaks. You could see this coming, "the only good Morphic field is a dead Morphic field."

5. Suspending cables and power cords are tweaks, not tuning. The dead vibration thing.

6. Demagnetizing CDs is a tweak. Recall, the only good magnetic field is a....

7. Ionizing cables and CDs are tweaks not tuning.

8. Constrained layer dampers like mine and Marigo VTS Dots are tweaks not tuning. Example the tiny 2 mm dots for capacitors. The only good vibration...

9. WA Quantum Chips for cables, capacitors, transformers, inductors, etc. Nope, not tuning, but tweaking.

10. Reversing the direction of fuses. Yup you guessed it. Tweak.

11. Reversing the direction of interconnects. Bingo! Tweak!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I cancelled my appointments today so I could jump in and have a little fun with this. Not fun at this but fun with it.

First, speaking of plastic. When you strip down both the NAD and Magnavox you will notice that the Magnavox has much less plastic than the NAD.

Second, If one looks at tuning you see real voiced instrument wood all over the place. The reasoning of course being we have found that less metal, rubber and plastic and more wood makes a huge jump in sonic realness, with rich harmonics and body that is harder to get from the units using more of the mentioned materials. From a listening point of view the difference is remarkable, but also from a practical more scientific view the Magnavox represents a unit that is not as stuck in the "sounds" of those other materials. Looking at instruments there is a system to the transfer of vibration used and a method of using those vibrations to make musical notes, more or less harmonic.

Third and very important, we have to be careful with transformers near other parts. DAC parts are super sensitive to transformers and you have a couple of choices here. One is to do the dampen/shielding of making the unit less flexible, possibly closing in the harmonics and as a result makes an upward tilt in tone or even a harsh pitchy sound, or from the other end a rubbery sound. Two, is get those transformers far away (as in a foot or two) from the parts. And third, design a unit using much smaller transformers. In our listening option three has been the most successful.

So lets say these two NAD c516BEE and the Magnavox MDV 2300 were on the bench side by side, all tore down to the basics and we didn't have any names or model numbers on them, or any known reviews, and we were looking at them just from a practical application point of view, considering all the variables, the question would be which one from a vibratory point of view is more suited to tune?

From this point of view, first I listen to the units stock. After this a basic tune, and after this a tear down till I find the maximum performance state, which I talk about here and on TuneLand. When I find that point and the states along the way I then decide on making transfer devices that bring the most out of the players and allowing for different levels of involvement and flexibility on the end users side. Brand names and price-tags have no influence on us when doing this.

Also we should keep in mind that I threw away a ton of inexpensive and mid-priced units to get to the Magnavox models we chose. Just for info sake, the more expensive units we do more partial tunes on because of their weight and mass. The big stuff almost for us is a different class of tuning altogether and would get pretty confusing for someone not up on the whole of tuning. Basically you have to do tuning around the units designed flexibility. Heavier products of course lean toward a particular signature, so in these cases we usually tune them in to flavor choices or a few of them. Most of the time though we'll tune them to get the units back to their original designed sound pre-shipping. As you go down in weight and mass the tuning becomes more flexible. This is why you see a lot of extreme tunees go with approved units for tuning that are way down in "cheap" price ranges. They don't pick out cheap players and start tuning, but usually make sure they have certain sonic qualities they're hunting for at whatever price, but many times will choose the lower mass units. For example with these particular models of Maggies, once semi stripped, gives a deep rich bottom end with more analog sounding highs. So for us who love the rich analog sound, these are great units to start with. For those who want more of a digital sound, maybe I would lean toward the NAD sound or that particular type of build.

It's kind of involved to be honest and is why I think a lot of guys would rather have me pick out their players than them going through the plug & play nightmere. Plug and play is fun at first and many make this their hobby, but most folks like to get to where they're going and begin the tuning process.

but anyway, there's a little more light on the subject

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Ron said

"While I totally can appreciate and applaud these efforts with very humble equipment, why the intrinsic and palpable REFUSAL to reduce the room budget by a thousand or two and step up to some truly audiophile grade components?"

mg

The most popular RoomTune setups are called the RoomTune TunePak and the RT Room-in-a-box, with both 10 piece acoustical setups regularly selling for less than $450.00 http://www.musicdirect.com/m-348-roomtunes.aspx

It appears by you trying to make some of your points your not being very realistic or accurate with your statements.

So if I read you correctly your saying a more expensive component makes the acoustics better? Ron there are three parts to your system Acoustics, Mechanics and Electric. By your approach above it looks like your short changing two of the three parts to a stereo setup.

let's take your system for example

You got the Creek and the NAD and the Epos and cables and such. Add this up and compare to the cost of your mechanical components and your acoustical treatments. If your trying to make a statement about balance you at this time are extremely out of balance puting almost all your eggs in one basket with the hopes that the 2 remaining parts to your audio system will somehow workout themselves. Not saying that can't happen in an extremely unlikely situation, but looking at your system this is certainly not the case from what I'm looking at. Second, it seems out of reason to even be making statements without ever using any kind of acoustical treatments, and using spare wood pieces out of your garrage. Doesn't this even seem a little out of reason to you, making judgements without ever even doing the other two parts of the trilogy, with the exception of moving speakers around in a room? It seems to me you are jumping way ahead of yourself on some of these threads and perhaps adding more to the problem than the solution.

What I see is you have very nice equipment that is ready to be put in both mechanical and acoustically in tune, or just played as is. I also see that your way Way WAY to hung up on what others choose for their systems, and without you ever trying what they have your playing in a completely irrelevant hypothetical judgemental idealand instead of getting the best out of what you have. Ron, what do you care if I play my Magnavox/Sherwood/Mini Mod/RoomTune based system or my Audio Note/Tunable Room/PZC one. I own both and don't kick one in the gutt because it cost more or less.

In the context of Tuneland, would you feel better if we talked about our Audio Note? Or our Creek system. We can pretty much whip together anyone of our systems for you but the points we make regardless are based on listening first then talking, added to as little assuming as we can.

So not to be a smartA** here on Stereophile. We will put together a super "dollar" system in Harold's location and tune it, and I will stay with my work for now and we will talk about the tuning on all levels of price ranges. If this helps you get over the problems your having on here and TuneLand no biggie, we will steer you to the bigger systems so you have more of a comfort level. But lets try to keep away from hypotheticals as truth Okie Dokie?

Also one other thing I would like to clear up here. In the past you have made statements with the slant that I get upset or bullheaded if someone else says something different than me. People who I consider internet trolls here attempt the same. That needs to be squashed right out of the gate unless you are wanting to take on the same name they have and constitute yourself in that same camp of dealing with others. Here's why and you pretty much can ask anyone who knows me in the industry of music, I'm a pretty darn happy camper :) and if you paint a picture that this is not true than maybe perhaps I might just become what you are projecting and that does no service to anyone. I'm gonna get POed at you or anyone who pushes buttons hard enough. That's me being out of character and frankly is too much for me to concern myself about, when there is so much to be happy about in the world and life.

Ron you saying on Tuneland "Seriously, my head is about to explode" has nothing to do with myself or anyone else on TuneLand. Try to keep your rants in perspective if you wish for people to respond to you with a peaceful mindset. My friend if you create a mood, a mood is likely what you will receive back. As Sonic, Jim and myself and several others in private have said, why not try asking first before a rant based on something that is in your head and not something we can appreciate without it being done.

thanks in advance for any consideration

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Ron when you posted your initial post here. Mostly I see people coming to Michael and Tuneland with questions about where and how to start with getting a good sounding system. Others come with their existing equipment and ask how to get better sound with what they already have.

Do your reading! I don't see "bullheaded and blind insistence", "blanket suggestions", "German police state", "following a dictator", "Kool-Aid"(!) anywhere! That's extremely strong language and challenging statements and Michael is responding to you in kind.

Holy Smokes, man! If you don't see that as slapping Michael and others in the face and throwing down the gauntlet, then you're no better than other flamers and trolls here. Your neutrality and civility is a facade.

If you want to get Biblical, you reap what you sow.

There's plenty of examples on Michael's website of people tuning the equipment they already have. Many have players and amps other than the Magnavox and Sherwood. I can see that you haven't read any of my posts on Tuneland- my equipment is mostly Linn and I wasn't pushed at all to get the Magnavox or Sherwood!
As an observer to your exchanges here and on Tuneland, I see that Michael and others are challenging your attitude rather than anyone's choices of equipment. You don't appear to understand what "tuning" is about and hence, you are not getting answers to your questions that you wish, because your questioning is ill-informed.

Hey, you took a shot. No harm in that.

However an intellectual exploration is different than a spirited intellectual debate, if that's what that was. Looked to us like an immature, insecure what-a-be, honestly it did. You come into someones backyard and tell them they have to change their system in order to be open minded. Then you reference me to a murderer. I would call that a lack of respect, or as the emails I got said "who is that jerk". You want blind, you just did it, again.

Maybe instead of saying it, you really should take full responsibility for your thoughtless comments. Did TuneLand look like a beginners debate team forum to you? Holy Smokes Batman! You've been hanging around trolls to long, or you think a conversation is playing devils advocate, or telling people if they don't have the NAD as a reference they don't know what they're doing. Do you really think these people just started the hobby yesterday? Holy mother of audio insanity, dude lol dude.

is what it is, no biggie, but glad it's over

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green wrote:

Hey, you took a shot. No harm in that.

However an intellectual exploration is different than a spirited intellectual debate, if that's what that was. Looked to us like an immature, insecure what-a-be, honestly it did. You come into someones backyard and tell them they have to change their system in order to be open minded. Then you reference me to a murderer. I would call that a lack of respect, or as the emails I got said "who is that jerk". You want blind, you just did it, again.

Maybe instead of saying it, you really should take full responsibility for your thoughtless comments. Did TuneLand look like a beginners debate team forum to you? Holy Smokes Batman! You've been hanging around trolls to long, or you think a conversation is playing devils advocate, or telling people if they don't have the NAD as a reference they don't know what they're doing. Do you really think these people just started the hobby yesterday? Holy mother of audio insanity, dude lol dude.

is what it is, no biggie, but glad it's over

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Seems to be a pattern here. Anyone who contradicts or debates or goes against the Big Plan of Greentown is a troll, a newbie, immature, someone who doesn't listen, doesn't walk the walk, a liar, doesn't understand physics, a beginner debater (as opposed to a Master Debater one assumes), insecure, disrespectful, a jerk, close-minded or a cohort of the Devil. Well, isn't that special?!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Hi Ron

The top one is the Classic Chameleon sitting on the Western Red Cedar Speaker Platform. You can see a PZC Tunable Acoustic Treatment in the corner, and the blinds on the window are ours as well. Again you see the custom Tuning Canopies with the amps and I believe they were using the Signature Tuning Rack with Top Tuning. Top tuning is a big deal for most of the more extreme setups. It looks like they're using a MA700 mono block by Philips/Marantz. The MA700 was my reference amplifier at the time. It was actually designed to be an ultra high end unit when the company was going through changes and the amp ended up going in a mid-fi chassis sold as their AV mono block. Another one of those magic finds, that got people in the high end sound for Cheap. As you saw on TuneLand a lot of guys end up using what I do in my designing. It's not by design as your probably getting the picture of now, but because we do everything but the electronics (did have our own briefly) it makes sense for a lot of people who are getting everything in one bag and then tune it in. The CDP in the top pic was probably a Samsung (can't remember the model) or a Parasound CDX88 I'm guessing around that time. At a few of the shows I used the Parasound, Convergent Audio Technology Pre (Hi Kenny), and either the MA700's or Symphonic Line (Hi Klaus) or Pass Labs (Hi Nelson) with the Chameleons and RoomTune. The CAT was Harry's fav at the time too.

Next is my Signature TT Stand. Again PZC's for treatment. This pic was at Jim Bookhard's place, one of the great underground internet reviewers of our time and one heck of a nice guy. He also pened under another name many great listening reviews but the name escapes me.

The bottom of course is not ours. The story goes I said I was the first one to do the rod design racks and Sal says he did. We must have been twins separated at birth. My JustaRak and ClampRak were the big sellers at the time till everyone and their brother started doing rod racks. Flattery I guess.

You might be interested in reading this article and looking at these pics. It tells a chapter of tuning http://www.michaelgreenaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124 . I would say 15 or so of the top reviewers (pat on back) were using this RoomTune Rack setup. Johnathon had (don't know if he's still living there) a cool pad in a great part of NY NY. You'll see in this article that we really do work with other companies and respect their designs (don't tell geoff it will ruin his troll lol). Back then I was doing about 20 audio trade shows a year and the speakers and components in the system was one we used at a couple of shows. You'll see a list of my products there but also, see that speaker floor? I designed, built it, and Robert Stein of The Cable Company and gang installed it (I think that's correct long time ago).

Take a look at the new Racks. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t71-mga-platforms-racks-and-amp-stands This is part of what we're working on now, ramping up production.

thanks for the mention Ron!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Ron Said

"In closing, if my form of debate truly did hurt your feelings, I profoundly apologize. I certainly can say hurting someone's feelings was NEVER my intent. I just found you to be a very intellectual and worthy "opponent" if you will..and so used some strong tactics..but again, I certainly did not mean to offend you personally and truly apologize if I have."

mg

Here's where I stand. If it were me, really no biggie. I grew up with being in music production (no mercy). Where I'm guarded and protective, is the "Tune" and the "Tunees". TuneLand really is listening paradise and has a Vibe once you get into it that goes the extra mile. It's true we don't have debates like on here, but it's not because I'm running a cult lol. As you look at these listeners, they are the heart and soul of this hobby. They go where no other listeners do, and instead of looking at parts and pieces all over the place we see these systems as a work of art because literally the equipment is gone and what you have left is all signal path (the heart and soul of every audio designer. What you may not have gotten first time around is almost all my clients are more stock than not. My job and passion since a little kid was and is to experience every part of music that I am talented in and take it to a place no one else has gone (making it tunable like the instruments we listen to). I have no desire to one up any listener on the planet. My goal is to make systems that allow the listener to go where they want, and be masters of their own private concert world. The only way I can do that Ron is to live with and within this extreme method. I love it when people go all the way stripped down, but I also love listeners period and am thrilled that they let me spend time with them and they with me.

Do you know in high end audio, there has never been a full method of listening that uses the same technology as the musical instrument itself?

So on TuneLand I live in listening paradise and enjoy the fellowship of others doing the same. I come here and see so much negative vibing going on about things that distract from the very goal "listening". I'm here for two reasons and two only. As much as I can share the "tune" with others and second recruit for TuneLand itself. I make no apologise or excuses for why I am here. But lets be honest I'm not some debate guy. Why debate when you are "doing". Does that make sense? On Tuneland we are "doing" music. You don't see debates because there's nothing to debate. If you would have come there and said "hey guys, when we get to it, can we tune a NADc516BEE" you have been greeted by the warmest family of listeners you ever saw. That's what we do on TuneLand. We listen and tune, and listen more, and tune more. Honestly and I'm not saying this to praise or put down anyone. The brand, reviews and looks for us (most of us) is maybe 4th or 10th on the list. We know that this may seem really weird for the guy who is into finding the signature sound of stock or lightly modded units, but most of us on TuneLand have listened to so many components that we have become blind to them as compared to having a system that you can make sound perfect for you and for every piece of music you own. Why own a Wilson (sorry Dave) if I can tune my setup like a Wilson (just an example). We're making systems that play the music any way the listener wants. Some people are going to dig that and others are going to throw a fit. But the fact is, we are and have been doing this for a long long time. It's like a sub-chapter to the hobby. We're not equipment collectors or get in-line everytime a new brochure or review comes out. As a matter of fact we don't think reviews should be about components at all but methods of listening.

All we ask of you Ron, is to learn and let it soak in as you are on your journey, and maybe curve the fast opinion that is based on what you read or a quick setup.

I'll give you one example then shutup and let you think about it. What if I said to you that we could make your NAD beat up on your DAC's? At first you would say no way right, you've already done the comparison. Yes you have done the comparison but you haven't really heard your NAD at all. Try not to over think this. Don't make that judgement yet until you read more on Tuneland. And please please please don't think I am ever down on your components, that's not my gig. Our method is to take your electronics, mechanics and acoustics to a place you never thought possible, but it's got to be a two way street and no bad vibes, or audiophile wisdoms. Look at TuneLand not as a place to change, but a place that will change the way you look at this hobby and give you the ability to take that system you have right there and make it beat up on a $100,000.00 system easily. Keep looking at those pictures and ask those questions and when it's time lets see where you want to go or not go.

As for me though understand that I not only have to do this a certain way, but I got hundreds of folks every year who depend on what I'm saying both here and on TuneLand. I can't and don't have the time to play audiophile. If you can dig this then lets start again with a better understanding. OK? Like you said don't make this over a Magnavox Player, let me worry about what I'm doing, you be thinking about your setup.

Let me know if you think this was a positive post or if your still feeling like I'm being harsh on you, cause that is not my thing, nor is it of your friends over on TuneLand. You just have to let go of us opening up our eyes and minds, we're good. Don't try to teach the tune become a student of it. I look at myself as a student not as a dictator. Listen to ChrisS and stop watching geoff kait movies. Geoff could join in the fun just like anyone else.

Thanks again for taking that step of understanding even though some of the stuff doesn't seem right or possible. Believe me I'm never going to try to sell you a magnavox again lol.

OK, sorry long winded, now I got to run.

see ya, keep that smile and for now try not to reason something out that you haven't explored or asked about

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Ron

Of course I accept and I extent the same wishes toward you. The fences we build around our houses are to keep our animals in, safe from harm, and predators out. All of us everyday decide if we're going to look through that fence to the neighbors yard. I look at it this way. We can decide to stay in our yard, climb higher to see the neighbors, keep climbing and see the neighborhood, and then city. Eventually the climbing will reach a level so to be able to see a vast land. At that point we have very important decisions. Do we stay on this mountain top living alone, do we come down and share what we have learned on our climb, if we do come down do we stay in our yard seeing the world as the same or do we see the world as a different place because of our climb. My personal view is not about being at the top, but each step of that climb. What did I learn when I took that step, when I actually instead of planing and hypothetically thinking what it would be like, actual did the climb. I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself, at each step of that climb I realised a couple of things. First and for most, I had to take that climb. No elevators or helicopters or spy drones were going to tell me anything more than a limited view. Second, I realised that the climb was nothing like I pictured before doing it myself. All the thinking in the world was never going to prepare me for the doing. Third, while on that climb, everytime I stopped and took in the view, it was a different view from the last. There was always something different and just as beautiful. Same mountain, just a different place on that mountain, and a different set of thoughts from that particular point of view. At each view, it was perfectly right. What I learned and what changed my life, were not the thoughts before the climb but the wisdom I was able to take in by me myself taking each step. It wasn't even about my wisdom, but about the wisdom that was always there in varying points of view if I chose to explore that part of that mountain.

This my friend and readers is why I defend the "doing" and exploring the different views with a method that offers me what ever view is there. Not fixed or stuck or opinion as they're not wrong but only one viewpoint of the vastness, but instead with the freedom to explore it all.

just a personal opinion for all

It's not about being the teacher, it's about staying the student.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green wrote:

Hi Ron

Of course I accept and I extent the same wishes toward you. The fences we build around our houses are to keep our animals in, safe from harm, and predators out. All of us everyday decide if we're going to look through that fence to the neighbors yard. I look at it this way. We can decide to stay in our yard, climb higher to see the neighbors, keep climbing and see the neighborhood, and then city. Eventually the climbing will reach a level so to be able to see a vast land. At that point we have very important decisions. Do we stay on this mountain top living alone, do we come down and share what we have learned on our climb, if we do come down do we stay in our yard seeing the world as the same or do we see the world as a different place because of our climb. My personal view is not about being at the top, but each step of that climb. What did I learn when I took that step, when I actually instead of planing and hypothetically thinking what it would be like, actual did the climb. I can't speak for anyone else, but for myself, at each step of that climb I realised a couple of things. First and for most, I had to take that climb. No elevators or helicopters or spy drones were going to tell me anything more than a limited view. Second, I realised that the climb was nothing like I pictured before doing it myself. All the thinking in the world was never going to prepare me for the doing. Third, while on that climb, everytime I stopped and took in the view, it was a different view from the last. There was always something different and just as beautiful. Same mountain, just a different place on that mountain, and a different set of thoughts from that particular point of view. At each view, it was perfectly right. What I learned and what changed my life, were not the thoughts before the climb but the wisdom I was able to take in by me myself taking each step. It wasn't even about my wisdom, but about the wisdom that was always there in varying points of view if I chose to explore that part of that mountain.

This my friend and readers is why I defend the "doing" and exploring the different views with a method that offers me what ever view is there. Not fixed or stuck or opinion as they're not wrong but only one viewpoint of the vastness, but instead with the freedom to explore it all.

just a personal opinion for all

It's not about being the teacher, it's about staying the student.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael Green is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Guys-

just reading through this thread, which CREEK products did you guys mod?

2nd note-

MG, have you modded any CREEK cd players?

Much Thanks! Ron-

Hi Allen

Sorry for the late responses (busy summer). I've modded the Creek CD43 Mk2 and 50Mk2. Plus almost all the early Creek. The mods consisted of removing the chassis and building a completely new one. The new chassis was bigger and had one tuning bolt on top. Very Scandinavian in style.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Thank You! MG

have you heard the Creek 'Destiny' cd player?

I want to read more about your CD player mods= MG and Ron!

Yep, been following it- Ran.

Although the NAD has taken a little back seat in our neck of the woods, I've been gathering Magnavox's to get ready for the comparisons. I now have several 100's, 200's, 2100's, 2300's an early FUNAI (same as the 2300). I've brought in other brands this summer Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, Marantz, Cambridge and Oppo, and a few others still to be burnt in, but have been seduced by the non-digital sound I get out of the Maggies over the others. Not stock, but with little work the Magnavox just keeps coming back with warm music, huge stages and flowing detail, which suits my taste to a tea. The tuning tools I'm using love the Magnavox and make it easy to make the adjustments from recording to recording, or if I want to just pick the flavor of the day and do the DJ thing.

I hate to mention models if they get a not so good review from me, cause you never know what taste is going to fancy someone, so I figured maybe I can get by with naming the brand without getting too cut throat. I'll let the readers worry about the legitimacy of doing this, but my main goal is to be able to promote a non-digital sound out of CD players, which is the major complaint listeners bring up about the CD world.

more to come

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I am looking forward to your comparison's -MG!

michael green wrote:

... I've been gathering Magnavox's to get ready for the comparisons.... but have been seduced by the non-digital sound I get out of the Maggies over the others. Not stock, but with little work the Magnavox just keeps coming back with warm music, huge stages and flowing detail, which suits my taste to a tea. The tuning tools I'm using love the Magnavox ...

I have several models of Mags and Philips -- late 80s/early 90's -- of the Philips chipset variety: TDA1541A+SAA7220 (DAC IC + OS DF) .
Yes, these are popular with the DIY community mostly because large (DIP or SOIC) IC footprints are easy to work with (solder/wire).
(For nostalgic reasons, classic audio gear is also popular in Forum-based communities like Circle, Asylum, etc.).

My own Mag project is very good sounding: It does not sound like good analog or even good digital ... it's different from both.
But it took a long time/much effort to get my first Mag project to sound "good" (as described in my Ancient Magnavox thread). Also, Naim and certain Marantz/Philips models -- from the same era as the cheap Mags -- ALREADY had very similar sonic characteristics of my modded Mag.

Indeed, classic gear -- budget or high-end -- is, in many ways, over-appreciated for wide variety of reasons (some of them just as ridiculous as modern, over-priced golden-ear gear).

Recent, renewed interest in "classic" multi-bit digital -- how great the retro stuff was (or still is, compared to yuckky/modern Delta-Sigma) -- is, IMO, largely due to the same human drive that propels any human hobby/interest: boredom. I.e., the hedonic treadmill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmill

Sometimes, Sam Tellig used to mention such philosophical topics, via snuck-in book reviews, in his Stereophile cheapskate beat.

Tellig has gone ... but you can go to Google, Amazon or your library card catalog and look for keywords "Science of Happiness".
If you are willing to read/absorb and ACCEPT the take-home message elucidated in these books, you may just walk away from the audiophile pathology ... with some change in your pocket ;)

Hi hollowman

I'm extremely happy to see you posting on these threads and making your own. We had the R2R adjustable, cassette adjustable, turntable adjustable and now with listening explorers like yourself we can give the CD Player the same attention the other sources received. Not that this is new, but ceratinly not givin the fair shake deserved.

There's a wide range of approaches (just as many as the others) and if this became common knowledge we would find out that CD truely is a prized possession.

What you are doing could turn out to be one of the most important postings on the "phile" at this particular time. Not that everyone is going to do the exact same tuning, but that people start seeing the CDP as a serious source after years of the industry not taking advantage of what we have.

great stuff

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green wrote:

Not that this is new, but ceratinly not givin the fair shake deserved.

Stereophile is the WRONG place to look for DIY/mod discussions. DIYAUDIO.com is your best bet ;)
Ultimately, I became bored with DIY, so I'm coming back to the real world ... for a while, anyway.
I think you do get what you pay for ... DIY initially takes a lot of time (but is "fun", like any new hobby).
For now, I just want to listen to music ... thru whatever is convenient ;)

High End Audio certainly is an action sport, just depends on ones desire, and time to explore. Also I wouldn't put DIY in the same class as adjustable. Personally I find most designers and designs develope great products and performance, they simply need to be tuned to the associated components, environment and conditions on the users end.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Thank You! MG