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How low can Mr. Greed go?
Hey, I'm a poet and don't know it.
Your whining and angst are duly noted.
If you don't mind my saying so too much you should probably give serious consideration to taking a refresher course in English so you don't appear to be completely uneducated.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
And learn how to do "science" like the grade school kids!
Geoffy wrote...
"Take a cable with a black jacket and listen to it so younger [sic] an idea what it sounds like. Then wrap the outside of the black jacket say 1/4 the length with WHITE electrical tape. Listen to the cable again. You should be able to hear the sound is better with the white tape around the jacket."
Go back to http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml and read where you went wrong here.
Are you smarter than a 5th Grader, Geoffy?
Nope.
If any wish to visit TuneLand, we have some interesting projects going on at any given time pertaining to the OP. Over a hundred unique readers come every day to explore audio, their systems and the music they love. I'm happy to take you through the audio chain and explain important topics for this hobby and industry.
On TuneLand you can start your own listening system thread and explore the art and method of tuning.
Why be trolled by old folks who have not moved beyond portable sony cassette walkmans, when you can become a part of the most advanced listening forum in the hobby. Come share in the fun of listening together as many of your fellow members have been doing.
Thank you stereophile for the opportunity of sharing!
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Thanks for checking in along with your semi demented monkey. I suppose you know what I do and don't do by, what, mental telepathy? The same way you know what a system sounds like by staring at a photo of the room? See, this is what happens when you Stove Pipe for thirty years - you loose touch with what others are doing in your hobby and believe you must be the top of the food chain. We see this all the time. Your case while somewhat intriguing is certainly not unique. There are more than enough ego maniacs to go around in this hobby.
I do. You do do.
Definition of an expert: Someone who used to be a squirt under pressure.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica
People who don't do
science,
don't do
because
they don't know
that
they don't know
science.
They talk
like this...
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/7266.html
"what others are doing in (your) hobby"...
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems
Geoffy doesn't know
Geoffy doesn't do
Geoffy talks like this
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/7275.html
Michael's monkey is working overtime today flinging his feces around. Hmmmm...I wonder if he gets a discount on TuneLand stuff.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Organ grinders and monkeys
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/7266.html
There is no sound except what's in his head
He says so
"There are more than enough ego maniacs to go around in this hobby. "
There is also no room big enough to contain his own ego
He says so
Is TuneLand filled with semi retarded types like ChrisS? That's what I'm beginning to suspect.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
What's that in your head?
A neuron?
You don't get out much, do you Geoffy?
Ego too big? Can't fit through your door?
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/7014.html
There's a reason it's called Isolation Ward, isn't there?
Hi Chris
Yep, this summer people have been tuning up a storm. I'm starting to wonder if the hobby is taking on change. It use to be that audiophiles would have other things to do during the summer months and pick up their hobby again in the fall, but not this season.
thanks for the link http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems It's suprising how many people get a hold of us after finding out we tune all levels and price ranges, and showing these links displays this. I think because I spend so much time talking and showing the basics people assume we no longer cater to the big boys. Just the opposite in reality. We have far more big budget systems getting consultations than the simple hod-rodded systems. I have fun with all of them.
now on to geoffy-boy-kramer
The other day I was cracking up, while shopping for CD holders. Here in Vegas you can find almost anything cause of the lifestyle here, so if I see something that was over looked, like an amp or something I may score it. I might take them apart or give them away to someone getting started in the hobby or whatever. Anyway while in the store "Savers" I was nosing around and happened on the electronic wall, where they have little portables and all kinds of cables and what not. And on this wall there was a whole mess of CDP's and Cassette Players for a buck 50 ($1.50). Naturally I thought of our little ole forum troll Geoffy Kramer. So I grab some batteries and tapes and had myself a good laugh.
You gotta wonder why this guy would start so many fights on audio forums, claim to be an authority of any kind, then a year ago throw away his high end for these horrible sounding, out of pitch, mis-aligned disasters? I don't have a problem with low mass and few parts at all, everyone knows this about me, but he has to be certainly just making a joke and can't be serious. This is like the 5th or 6th time I've checked into this jokers card game, thinking no one can really be banking his reputation as a listener on these units and using them to make high end audio judgements.
Well, it was good for a laugh once again as I came to my senses and conclusion yet again of how disruptive an internet troll can be, LOL. At one time I gave geoff and May fair shakes hoping there was something there, but the more they say the less I can take them serious. Plus seeing that I am a man of "doing it" and between the two of them have seen their combined top "doing" leveling out at a portable sony walkman cassette player, which I just listened to, I'm sure with a pained or at least paniced look on my face, I must agree with others. Unless they can show something more than what they have, at best it's a bit of a side show for passer bys.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Stripped right down there's not much to Geoffy, just his ego.
He talks, because that's all an ego can do.
mr. greed was looking for a few audiophiles with no lives and in you he found one.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Michael wrote,
"The other day I was cracking up, while shopping for CD holders. Here in Vegas you can find almost anything cause of the lifestyle here, so if I see something that was over looked, like an amp or something I may score it. I might take them apart or give them away to someone getting started in the hobby or whatever. Anyway while in the store "Savers" I was nosing around and happened on the electronic wall, where they have little portables and all kinds of cables and what not. And on this wall there was a whole mess of CDP's and Cassette Players for a buck 50 ($1.50). Naturally I thought of our little ole forum troll Geoffy Kramer. So I grab some batteries and tapes and had myself a good laugh."
You're being a bigger knucklehead than usual. But I do enjoy it when you get all bent out of shape. Very funny.
An ordinary man has no means of deliverance. - audiophile axiom
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/6767.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/6781.html
My opponent in that particular debate has no idea what he's talking about. Kind of like you, now that I think about it. High school graduate or dropout, whatever. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Lol
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
You get challenged again and again and again.
Your comeback?
The same non-answers, the same talk.
Not much there, just ego.
Was geoff kait refering to me as an opponent? I certainly hope not LOL.
Geoffy Kait at best is comic relief on these forums, at worst an internet troll.
back to some fun
I'm working on 4 Tunable Rooms at the moment and a bunch of Platforms, and with doing so I get to test samples of wood (and other materials) from all over the world, just got in a batch today :) Part of the fun is listening to the listener talk about their music and sound. I often will have them do sound field-trips in the homes so I can get use to what they are hearing. Pretty cool stuff! Sometimes it's more general and sometimes we use the same piece of music and I will voice (tune) my system to sound very much like theirs. As I always say here, comments like "better" and "improvement" don't really say much to the guy that is more of an advanced listener. For him, he may know a particular hall, instrument, section or artist style well, and want to make this appear in his room. I mentioned the Tunable Room, which is designed like a musical instrument and allows the listener to recreate the same hall, studio or instrument sounds extremely close to the original.
It's fun to have the tools that allow you to go anywhere and explore any piece of music, and with this, judging the sound takes on new meaning. I've just installed a new rear listening wall in one of my rooms. Well I say new but I've been curing this wood for over 1 1/2 years (some longer) and feel like a little kid at christmas. Seeing guys take to this level of listening is a blast, and no doubt the ultimate step in serious listening. Think about it, why not have your own "Real" Private Concert Hall to enjoy the music! It's fun to convert living rooms, but compared to a real mini concert hall, lol. There's only so much a living room can do with the sound, and if lucky enough, and a little knowledge, there are some great things that can be done in the home, but when I'm doing the real deal, my butts in my mini hall.
I'd like to get more into converting rooms and building the Tunable Rooms on here, and maybe when there is a cooler vibe we can really get into the judging, but for now you guys can also visit TuneLand and read up on these rooms and systems.
got Uakti playing
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Another TunnelLand denizen checks in tryng to be Relevant. No, Michael, I wasn't referring to you. It's not all about you. I was referring to Stu in the post that your lapdog ChirsS linked to. You know, it helps if you keep up with the discussion before opening your yap. You guys are convincing me that TunnelLand is the Lost Patrol of Audio.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica
ChrisS. If you are going to bring in other sources as your ‘evidence’, then I suggest you present the history behind such sources better.
As well as Geoff, I have had ‘spats’ with UncleStu over on AA for quite some time.
UncleStu’s mindset is that anything which has an effect on the sound is because of RF interference on the audio signal, or electromagnetic interference on the audio signal etc. He has (such as) various crystals positioned on everything and everywhere and he believes that the changes in the sound (from using such crystals) are because either the RF is entering the crystal and is being absorbed – therefore no longer presenting a problem - or is entering the crystal and is being regurgitated out again differently, therefore no longer having such an adverse effect – on the audio signal. And that there can’t be any other explanations !!! I have never challenged Unclestu regarding the CHANGES in the sound he hears – only challenged his explanations as to WHY the sound changed !!
Similarly, I have never challenged Michael G on the changes in the sound HE hears when he does different things in the listening environment, I have only challenged him on his explanations as to WHY the sound changed.
You, Chris, appear to have accepted Hook, Line and Stinker Michael G’s claims that his answer is THE answer, that his method is THE method and that his truth is THE truth. And you therefore appear to agree with Michael’s mindset that as ‘there are vibrations everywhere, therefore the problem is vibrations and therefore what one is dealing with is vibrations”.
In a much earlier thread on the Stereophile Forum which Ethan Winer was involved in (which actually went on for over 39 pages until it had to be brought to an end) he also had a mindset. Which was that :-
>>> “Yes, everything that affects audio can be expressed using the following four parameters:
* Frequency response
* Noise
* Distortion
* Time-based errors” <<<
And that ONLY those four parameters were involved !!
And Ethan Winer firmly believed that one could NOT make changes in the sound by cryogenic freezing, by applying a demagnetiser to LPs and CDs, by using magic hockey pucks, too-small room treatments that defy all that is known about physics, power "conditioner" products, applying different colours, etc.
Another colleague of Ethan Winer (actually a member of the prestigious AES) during a public debate stated categorically that he believed that the differences in the sound which people claim to hear are purely because when they move to change something, when they sit down again their head is in a slightly different position than it had been just before making the change !!!
I must, however, give some credit to Unclestu because when he is not quite sure of an explanation for a change in the sound he acknowledges such by saying “I don’t quite know why the sound changed but I suspect it has something to do with RF interference”.
As in :-
>>> “At least when I propose a tweak, I give the best educated explanation I can forward.” <<<
On the other hand, Michael G has stated that there are NO questions on HIS shelf awaiting answers. He claims that “they have done the questions and got the answers”.
Yes, Michael can change the sound with his techniques and devices. Yes, Unclestu can change the sound with using crystals and his other techniques. I don’t challenge any of those things.
I also KNOW that there can be RF interference on the audio signal. I also KNOW that there can be electromagnetic interference on the audio signal. I also KNOW that sometimes vibrations can have an effect.
But, I also KNOW that there are anomalies which have an effect on the sound (which change the sound) which have NO explanation from within conventional electronic or acoustic theories !!!! That, therefore, one has to look elsewhere for explanations and, again, whilst one is looking, there will be questions awaiting answers.
Presumably, ChrisS, YOU must have the answers !!!! If so, please enlighten us.
Then we all can understand everything that is going on regarding changes to the sound !!
Regards,
May Belt
PWB Electronics
It should be pointed out with respect to the discussion over on AA that Michael's lapdog ChrisS linked to that when Stu accuses me of presenting myself as a theoretical physicist, you know, as if I'm NOT actually a theoretical physicist, he's grasping at straws since, in reality, I am a theoretical physicist. And he is a retired steelworker. He's grasping at straws because he's angry and frustrated that it looks like he's in the process of losing yet another argument. Anyone who does not see the irony raise your hand. It what people like Stu and ChrisS and Michael tend to do when they can't win an argument on the merits - they attack the person who's winning to try and save face. Case closed.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
So anyway folks, as May & geoffy talk about spats they created on this forum and others let's get back into the listening.
Today I'm listening to Stan Getz "finest". After one pass, I decided to open up the space just a little in the upper midrange. The way my systems are laid out I have the wires organized so they can be used as part of the tuning. You can see many on TuneLand (geoff likes to call TunnelLand lol, poor old feller) doing the same thing and some are masters at electromagnetic voicing. Since May was talking about tweaks with outlets (a great place to look at tuning) I choose this area to make the change. As I have said, on my systems there are no outlet covers, unless I'm taking pics sometimes :) . The wires in these areas are not shoved back in the AC boxes, but pulled and straightened out. I'm not going to talk about the connection, but by gently moving the wires into different positions you can hear the stage change even while making the adjustments. I did so this time by slightly speading the + and - maybe by a 1/6" and as doing so could hear the upper-mid smooth right out. After about 10 minutes of playing then skin around each instrument became very detailed and you could easily see where the instrument stopped air begin and even about how close the instruments were from the mics. This is where I wanted to go. Later on though more than likely I will make similar adjustments with wires in other areas to bolden the effect even more.
I wanted to share this with you guys at this time so you could see my point on this forum. If you could set aside the flaming and twist and turning that goes on, on some of these threads you can see the differences in approaches to what May and I do. Again as I have said many times I don't want to discount other designers in the hobby, but I do want to promote a deeper level of tweaking. geoff we have to almost put in his own little anger management camp, but I do appreciate when geoffy-boy-kramer or May bring up a particular tweak-able area in audio. I know they get frustrated in regards to Fixed vs Variable but I hope the readers continue to see how amazingly flexible the audio chain is.
Why these flames, debates, discussions, challenges even take place here is something that I find very strange (mg rolls eyes again). These topics are so easy to explore by "doing" and instead of challenges we should all be "doing" together and giving an account of our findings and systems. My proof for example is found on TuneLand every day as people are actually doing the things I mention.
So while these internet trolls fire away at all who read, ask yourselves the question, who's doing and who isn't? On TuneLand you can read and see pictures of the actual events taking place and here you read people "doing" a lot of talking but very little practice. Some like geoff kait doesn't even have an audio system setup to talk about more than a $1.50 portable he picked up at some garrage sell. May, we have yet to see a system at all. Come to TuneLand and see system after system http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems exploration after exploration. Tons of pictures about the music and the systems used, and step by step referencing.
Once again I invite May and geoff to join in the fun of listening and the persuit of actually doing the Q&A's they and all of us talk about.
Thanks again for all the followers, it makes my day to see you on facebook, posting on TuneLand and coming up to visit. Listening truly is one of the greatest things going and I'm so happy we get a chance to share this every day.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
"Hook, Line and Stinker" lol
Is that what ChrisS is doing May?
I have never seen two internet folks (may & geoff) enjoy creating the reputations for spins in a hobby before, so I still may be a Newbee when it comes to internet trolling.
"In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
Internet trolling is all I see when I read the links pointed to, and personally I think it is good and healthy that ChrisS is being responsible enough to point out that this is a long standing practice that May & geoff have used to build whatever internet reputations they have.
Repeatedly they bring up their "spats" with others to prove whatever point it is they attempt to, so by all means in keeping the spirit of fairness it's important to see things in context whether it be Mr. Winer, Stu, Randi or the countless others the both of them have taken on with the same conclusions. All of this we should keep in mind is done outside of May's or geoff's listening rooms. Debates with words and no listening. How can anyone have real time debates without real time listening when it comes to audio? I don't know the other folks but I would bet that they at least "have" stereos to base their comments on. I have seen no such stereo from May, and I know geoff only listens to portable players and I think an alarm clock.
Now we see ChrisS being put on their unique hot seat LOL. I know for a fact ChrisS "does" have a stereo system. Readers should review posts of the past and discover that this is the pattern May & geoff use and little more. They're not actively involved audiophiles at all. It does keep the entertainment rolling, but it also distracts from the topics of listening and enjoying the hobby. I invite listeners to click on links to TuneLand and you will find the same topics only with responsible posting and tons of fun listening. Why is it May & geoff are unable to do this on these sites should indeed make us wonder.
"Hook, Line and Stinker" lol really May lol
I see ChrisS as an active member of the hobby of listening, and also as one who challenges you to pick up your ears and jump in. I'm proud that Chris is both active here and on TuneLand and think it's a shame for you and geoff to treat any of these listeners with disrespect the way you do. It's one thing to have a different view point based on your own personal experience or lack of, but I find it irresponsible to be so vocal without ever joining in the actual hobby of listening.
As they say “The Best Defense is a Good Offense", and I have yet to see any offense from either May or geoff.
May where is this "deeper" you once talked about? Turns out you and Peter have not gone very deep at all according to anything I have seen, or any of the reading I have done on you, or tweaks I have tried or others I trust. Why don't you stop talking beef and start showing some? If you and geoff are to be the vocal debate team here, why haven't we seen any systems? Two years May and only a portable cassette player between the two of you? This is beyond a joke, it's insanity to have your buddy come up here and put everybody down while holding a portable cassette player that can be picked up for a dollar fifty in the air. If you guys have a point about yourselves make it, and lets move on to some listening. If all you can do is create spats, then let us know this is all the further you can go, cause from my seats this is all I have seen and I would love to be a part of something more if there was indeed that more.
or
Maybe May & geoffy are only doing this so they can say their relevance in life is to be able to hold the record for the longest dead ends in audiophile history.
If your not doing, your already dead.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
The only time I post on this forum is to point out your shortcomings as a human being.
Really.
Look at all my posts.
Having grown up and lived with people who sing, play piano and various stringed instruments, I have to say that what Michael does makes absolutely perfect sense.
Like tuning any instrument, you hear the change instantly.
The answer, May?
As Michael has always said, just listen.
How would you know about human beings? You have the brain of an immature rat. You wouldn't be the first rat to have a hardon for Machina Dynamica that seems to last forever as the links you've provided demonstrate. Time for that long cold shower, Ratso.
Cheers,
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Michael wrote,
"I see ChrisS as an active member of the hobby of listening, and also as one who challenges you to pick up your ears and jump in. I'm proud that Chris is both active here and on TuneLand and think it's a shame for you and geoff to treat any of these listeners with disrespect the way you do. It's one thing to have a different view point based on your own personal experience or lack of, but I find it irresponsible to be so vocal without ever joining in the actual hobby of listening.
As they say “The Best Defense is a Good Offense", and I have yet to see any offense from either May or geoff."
Are you on crack? ChrisS and you have posted defamatory links for months and engage in lying, personal attacks, innuendo, all the usual tools we see with Internet trolls and defenders of cults like TuneLand. If ChrisS and you are examples of what the folks are like over on TuneLand then by cracky I will not be making the same mistake Ron did by going there and trying to discuss anything with what would appear to be just judging from you and ChrisS narrow minded, uneducated bumpkins.
It's positively Nixonian the way you use Geoff and May in all of your posts. Im sure you think you're pretty clever but Nixon was a paranoid too.
Cheers
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Go to Tuneland and read Ron's posts, his exchanges with Michael and others.
Look at Geoffy's post.
A perfect delusion.
Geoffy's in the Twilight Zone.
See what I mean...
We've been raised to cult status now by geoffy-boy-kramer! Right on, need to find a good robe lol.
So now people who listen at higher end levels than a portable sony cassette player (geoff's personal reference system) belong to listening cults? I guess I'm in good company lol.
What's geoff's status google? https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=geoff+kait+ and a search https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=geoff+kait+fraud
I don't see that ChrisS wrote any of these other reports on geoff kait. So why does ChrisS get called names for things geoff kait has done?
Seems to me that the rest of the hobby wants to get on with listening to music. Any reason why this is a bad thing geoff and May? The both of you must be proud of your spats, flames and trolling cause you certainly can see it all over the hobbies forums, till kicked out. To my knowledge the only time ChrisS or myself as far as that goes call you or others out is when we are wanting to put an end to classless trolling. If your attempting to turn that into trolling itself have at it, I'm pretty sure the good people of this hobby can read.
So what's wrong with starting a new leaf and come over to the listening side of things and put away all this behavior. You can't very well play the victim at this point in your journey, but you can certainly enjoy the music with us and become part of fruitful discussions which we know the both of you can offer up your opinions about.
Come on, what are you listening to tonight, lets start there?
The only possible reason I can think of why you guys contiue to stay in flame spin mode is because you aren't having fun listening and have personal axes to grind for some reason.
Oh well you guys keep trolling, and I don't see anything wrong with others pointing to links of the both of you doing the same thing other places. Saw on the news the other day where the caster was comparing internet trolls to "Cockroach Infestations". That's kinda how it feels when you guys or other negative people jump on otherwise constructive threads. Not so much May (she's just stuck), but for sure geoffy-boy-the kramer cockroach. Kinda like the cockroach after contaminating looking up at the shoe saying "I'm the victim".
I'm sure for the both of you this is an outlet for your venting, but when you turn a vent into a troll, especially without doing your homework on a topic or person, your bound to get spanked like two bad apples on the school playground. It's sad and I hate to see it but your both jumping infront of the paddle for attention sake and little more. If you had something to show you would have long ago.
well time to get back to the cult of listeners
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Maybe it's time for you and your pointy headed friend to take a time out. Apparently I've gotten under your skin. Was it something I said?
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
>>> “Not so much May (she's just stuck), “ <<<
No, Michael, it is not ME who is stuck. YOU have nailed your colours (the flag of variable) to the mast so firmly that you can’t get out of that position now. And, you make it clear you don’t want to !!
I, on the other hand, advocate BOTH ‘fixed’ AND ‘variable’ techniques – in other words, the best of both worlds.
NO one doubts that one can vary the sound !! Whatever one does in the room will vary the sound !!
Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.
>>> “Having grown up and lived with people who sing, play piano and various stringed instruments, I have to say that what Michael does makes absolutely perfect sense.
Like tuning any instrument, you hear the change instantly.
The answer, May?
As Michael has always said, just listen.” <<<
You make TOOO many presumptions, ChrisS.
Firstly you say “Having grown up with and lived with people who sing, play piano and various stringed instruments”.
How about having ACTUALLY done those things, personally ? I have !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And still do !!!!!!
>>> “Like tuning any instrument, you hear the change instantly” <<<
You are talking to someone who DOES !!!!!
You are claiming that because Michael says “tuning any instrument, you hear the change instantly” ( i.e says that truism) therefore he MUST BE correct about EVERYTHING !!
It is SOOOOOOOOO obvious, ChisS, that when one tunes a musical instrument, one can hear the change instantly that it is taken ‘as read’ (i.e doesn’t need saying) between intelligent people !!!!!!!!!!! People don’t need talking down to like that !!!!!!!!!!!! It is no different to you saying, during a discussion with intelligent audio people, “If you don’t switch the equipment on in the first place, you won’t be able to hear anything”.
Don’t you realise at what a basic level you are talking to people ????????
I don’t need to know what yours, or anyone else’s actual audio equipment is to know, from experience, what basic problems one can encounter with their sound.
For example. When someone reports (on the Stereophile Forum) that they have just tried Joe Bloggs new AC power cord and got an amazing improvements in their sound, we don’t NEED to know the list of their equipment. That they have heard an improvement is information on it’s own – for others to take note of if they wish to. Fine, if those people wish to list the particular equipment they are using at that specific time, then OK, but it is NOT essential to the discussion.
WHY should YOU presume that we don’t listen ????????? Just because Michael thinks we don’t doesn’t mean that you have to follow that same thinking !!
No one is disputing that when you change things in the listening environment you change the sound. You don’t have to jump in to defend Michael in that respect. No one disputes that Michael does a lot of listening.
You don’t have to jump in to defend Michael in that respect either – by insinuating that others don’t listen.
What I challenge Michael on is, as one example. Yes people can move around his magic, voiced wooden pieces and change the sound each time. Yes people can support their equipment on his magic, voiced pieces of wood and gain improvements in the sound but Michael does NOT tell people that they can place specific crystals on the capacitors and transformers in that equipment (as per UncleStu and others) and gain further improvements in the sound !!!!!!!!!!
Don’t keep accusing people of not listening because they might (horror of horrors) challenge Michael’s “the variable way is the only way to good sound” !!! It is NOT the only way !!!! It is ONE way !!
Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.
As I've mentioned before, most of my posts on this forum are directed to Geoffy.
My other posts, re: Michael Green, just say that what he does makes sense.
That's all.
For the record May Belt has never challenged Michael Green in the context of scientific practical application, not once not ever!
Also for the record, Michael Green has never claimed his way is the way! Michael supports the method of tuning as the fundamental premise of controlling the variables.
The rest of what both May Belt and Geoff Kait have done and are doing is nothing more than internet trolling.
May, if I were you I wouldn't make what ChrisS is doing here anything other than what it is. If Chris has the conviction to call geoff out you should probably look at why and not defend geoff's behavior. From what I have read people are willing to cut you some slack, but that slack will only go as far as you presenting yourself as one of reason.
If you wish to make a point, please do it with some merit higher than the standards of Geoff Kait or you too will be put into the same camp. Pretty simple math really.
Here's one of the places you loose credibility with me May and I think others.
may said
"For example. When someone reports (on the Stereophile Forum) that they have just tried Joe Bloggs new AC power cord and got an amazing improvements in their sound, we don’t NEED to know the list of their equipment. That they have heard an improvement is information on it’s own – for others to take note of if they wish to. Fine, if those people wish to list the particular equipment they are using at that specific time, then OK, but it is NOT essential to the discussion."
mg
How can I play Joe's power cord without a system, May?
let's go one step further shall we
May, how many power cords have been made with the claims plus revlews of improvement and betterment? Hundreds if not thousands. If your saying all of these are making the system better or improved, why are there so many? Then you come along and say "we don't need the system". May, on even the most basic fundamental amatuer level the system as a whole must be the context of which to put together judgements.
Hun, I have said this in I don't know how many ways, if you don't raise you game your not going to gain the acknowledgements you seek. You've had a few reviewers come along to say they heard improvements, but dear these same reviewers do this every month with new products, that's what reviewing magazines do. You keep trying to make a stand that fixed and variable are some how separate, and completely missing the point that a fixed tweak is one point of view within all the variables.
The entirety of your posts about the topic are pointless. Are there thousands of any one type of product? Yes. Does each one have it's own sound? Yes. Do all listeners hear differently? Yes. Are all recordings made unique? Yes.
This entire hobby is based on "variables", and as much as you want to sell or promote a one sound point of view, you are never going to sell the one "must have" fixed tweak that you so passionately have built your foundation on. Try as you may, and speak as loudly as you wish, the system "must" be a part of the proccess, because it is the proccess along with all the other variables. This is the basis of the entire hobby May. You trying to tell people that it is something different from what it is, only goes to show how variable this hobby truly is.
You and geoff and others can raid threads as much as you wish, and I'm afraid all you will do in the end is hurt the industry, instead of uniting it. Put away the need to prove you are right somehow and join in the uniting and watch this forum change overnight. Stop worrying about your and geoff's own relevance and watch what happens. Both of you, if wanting to make a difference, should either dust off your systems or get one and jump into the referencing of music here. Saying products have merit outside of a system approach will only take you further from the active sport of the hobby and hurt your credibility.
Back to what I said earlier, you have never challenged Michael Green. You might keep saying loudly that you have, but that's just someone saying something that isn't fact. Your talking about the same "stuck" place as all the rest who have not yet realized the variables at play here, trying to promote that one product, one must have fix. Hun, the system isn't broken, it just needs to be tuned.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
>>> “May said :-
For example. When someone reports (on the Stereophile Forum) that they have just tried Joe Bloggs new AC power cord and got an amazing improvements in their sound, we don’t NEED to know the list of their equipment. That they have heard an improvement is information on it’s own – for others to take note of if they wish to. Fine, if those people wish to list the particular equipment they are using at that specific time, then OK, but it is NOT essential to the discussion."
mg
How can I play Joe's power cord without a system, May?
Then you come along and say "we don't need the system".” <<<
Michael you are at it, YET AGAIN, with the misrepresentation of what I say and the deliberate twisting of what I say.
I DID NOT say that “one does not need a system”. I said that in the example of the AC power cord we do not NEED TO KNOW the EXACT equipment being used by the person reporting hearing an improvement !! We can easily understand the fact that they ‘heard an improvement’ – without initially knowing what equipment they have.
>>> “You keep trying to make a stand that fixed and variable are some how separate, and completely missing the point that a fixed tweak is one point of view within all the variables.” <<<
WOW !!!!!!!!! THAT is one of the most amazing turnarounds I have seen anyone make. After repeatedly claiming that the ‘variable way’ is the only way – all of a sudden you now want ‘fixed’ tweaks to be included “within all variables”. SURELY, Michael, that is the point I have been trying to make all along. That BOTH ‘fixed’ AND ‘variable’ are the best of both worlds ??????????????
If ‘a fixed tweak is one point of view within all variables’ IS what you believe, then why don’t you inform people of the ‘fixed’ tweaks AS WELL AS the ‘variable’ tweaks ?
I don’t think it is ME who misses the point.
When I made the comment earlier :-
>>> “YOU have nailed your colours (the flag of variable) to the mast so firmly that you can’t get out of that position now. “ <<<
I never realised that you would NOW claim that ‘fixed’ is also ‘variable’ !!!!!!!!!!
>>> “This entire hobby is based on "variables", and as much as you want to sell or promote a one sound point of view, you are never going to sell the one "must have" fixed tweak that you so passionately have built your foundation on. Try as you may, and speak as loudly as you wish, the system "must" be a part of the proccess, because it is the proccess along with all the other variables. This is the basis of the entire hobby May. You trying to tell people that it is something different from what it is, only goes to show how variable this hobby truly is.” <<<
>>> “Your talking about the same "stuck" place as all the rest who have not yet realized the variables at play here, trying to promote that one product, one must have fix.” <<<
>>> “to sell the one "must have" fixed tweak that you so passionately have built your foundation on, trying to promote that one product,” <<<
Again with the deliberate misleading. We don’t have a “one fixed tweak” on which we have built our foundation on !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>> “Turns out you and Peter have not gone very deep at all according to anything I have seen, or any of the reading I have done on you,” <<<
If, according your claim that you HAVE read about our work, you are STILL saying we are trying to promote the “one must have tweak” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just what HAVE you read, Michael ????????????? To my knowledge – at last count - we have well over a hundred !!!!
>>> “Also for the record, Michael Green has never claimed his way is the way!” <<<
Oh yes you have, Michael. THAT is why I have challenged you so many times. I will quote your own words back to you !!!!!!!!!!!
>>> “When we say "tuning" we really do mean it. It is "THE" answer” <<<
Or, have I got you wrong, Michael ? Are you NOW wanting to say that cryogenic freezing of things IS ‘tuning’ ? That applying a demagnetiser to LPs, CDs etc IS ‘tuning’ ? That applying liquids to the labels of LPs, to the label side of CDs etc IS ‘tuning’ ? That applying certain colours IS ‘tuning’? That placing certain crystals on components etc IS ‘tuning’ ? That tiny devices in the room, or such as Harmonic discs, or Shun Mook devices, or introducing the Schumann Resonance ARE all ‘tuning’ ? And so on – too numerous to mention ??????????????????
Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics
They are both plugged in the wall outlets but I plug them alternately into the power amp. One is a thick (is this small gauge or large gauge, never got the imperial measuring system) multi-stranded silver-plated copper, the other is a much thinner gold-doped solid silver affair. The braiding and insulation are the same.
Needless to say they bring a different sound... Now would these qualify as "tuning" or not?
So I said!
No text
May, I have no idea where you got me in your thought proccess, only you can figure this out for you, but as far as my position, it has been the same since day 1.
As I think people are trying to tell you including myself in many ways and many times, this hobby is full of variables. It can either be looked at from each point of sound, or as we do more of a sliding rule the more we simplify the system and make it variable.
As Toledo said early on and I have repeated countless times the entire hobby is about tuning in a recorded code to the audio chain playing it, not more not less. The more flexible we make our systems the more choices we have of the presention. Where "fixed" comes in is when someone does something that is irreversible in the chain that causes a permanent signature on the sound. As a result this "signature" appears in all the recordings played (good or bad) and may not get along with the original recorded code. It may be fine or even wonderful for some listeners and some recordings, but it will also be limited in it's range of play. The audio code is the signal traveling through the audio chain, and what we do is look to make it as adaptable (flexible) as possible.
Without getting into products, let me state again that the entire proccess is a part of tuning. This is why we say that tuning is the answer. If you turn this into me saying that people can only tune "michael's way" you haven't be reading very closely for the past two years. The whole premise of "tuning" is so every listener can develope their own method of listening dependent on their own particular taste and set of values.
Tuning is looking at the overall, while "fixed" is looking at one point in the overall. I've been giving tons and tons of stories relating to this to show what we are and have been saying. The only thing I can think of is you haven't read the threads or are not able to interpret the thought in writing.
If I might make a suggestion. When thinking about this maybe it would be easier for you to think of "tuning" as an umbrella. Under this umbrella are both "fixed" and "variable" definitions, practices and results. Tuning is the overall, and in and out of tune is the variable.
When I say "the" answer, it has nothing to do with someone listening to "michael's" sound or even product. Tuning has to do with the method of adjusting "all" the variables, recognizing that each variable (in stop) is a "fixed" point of view. With physics nothing "stays" in "stop", therefore the need for "variable tuning".
This is about as simple as the hobby gets May, and if you think I'm saying something different go back and look at how you have tried to make it sound different for what ever reason. And if I have drifted off course with my meanings it was probably in trying to relate this very simple message to you. But the message has been the same since the very first musical instrument with adjustments. You nore anyone else needs michael to explain that to them.
May, you have to grab the basics before you can make the specifics.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
>>> “May, I have TWO power cords for my power amp
They are both plugged in the wall outlets but I plug them alternately into the power amp. One is a thick (is this small gauge or large gauge, never got the imperial measuring system) multi-stranded silver-plated copper, the other is a much thinner gold-doped solid silver affair. The braiding and insulation are the same.
Needless to say they bring a different sound... Now would these qualify as "tuning" or not?” <<<
As I understand it, such as 22 gauge is thin and such as 16 gauge is thick. In other words, the high the gauge number the thinner the wire.
As you have described it, and as each cord gives different sound, then my interpretation would be that “each gives different sound”. The crucial thing would be if YOU thought that the ‘sound’ of one cord is preferable when listening to one recording but that the ‘sound’ of the other cord is preferable when listening to a different recording. If that is what you find, then that would come within Michael’s term of “tuning” and it would come under the description of “variable” !! Because you can vary the sound to YOUR choice !!
Now, to describe a slightly different situation. If you acquire a second set of identical AC power cords. Listen to each cord and confirm that they sound identical to the ones you already have.
Now if you apply (say) the Nordost ECO 3 liquid to the outer insulation of both of the second set of AC power cords and listen to each one and you now hear an improvement in the sound. Say the improvement in the sound is less harshness, with more open and expansive sound. The differences (as heard previously) in each cord is still there, as before, but the whole sound of each cord is now better. You were not aware that there HAD BEEN any harshness with your previous cables – until you heard something which reduced that harshness. Then when you go back to listening with your previous power cords (the ones which had not been ‘treated’) you now realise that there IS some harshness in the sound from both !!
The ‘treatment’ with the Nordost ECO 3 liquid is a ‘fixed’ tweak. Once applied it has done it’s job. So, you can’t go back to how it was before the ‘treatment’ – so you can’t DO ‘variable’.
Now, would you want to continue listening to your previous power cords – without any ‘treatment’ – still now with the harshness or would you wish to give them the same treatment with the Nordost ECO 3 liquid ??
My understanding of such a situation would be that the ‘treatment’ with the Nordost ECO 3 liquid is a ‘fixed’ tweak for BOTH cords (can’t be removed once applied) but with the earlier available variation of being able to swap the cords around to fit whichever recording you choose – as before !!
My understanding of what Michael is NOW saying is that EVERYTHING under the sun, which changes the sound, comes within the description of “variable” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND within the description of “tuning”.
Michael says :-
>>> “Tuning has to do with the method of adjusting "all" the variables, recognizing that each variable (in stop) is a "fixed" point of view.” <<<
No wonder these threads go on and on and on !!!
Michael says – on the subject of “fixed”.
>>> “Where "fixed" comes in is when someone does something that is irreversible in the chain that causes a permanent signature on the sound. As a result this "signature" appears in all the recordings played (good or bad) and may not get along with the original recorded code. It may be fine or even wonderful for some listeners and some recordings, but it will also be limited in it's range of play. The audio code is the signal traveling through the audio chain, and what we do is look to make it as adaptable (flexible) as possible.” <<<
THIS is how Michael goes about ‘knocking’ (pooh poohing) “fixed” tweaks. He describes a “fixed’ tweak as “it will also be limited in it’s range of play”. He uses the words “it will” – not ‘it might’, not ‘it could’, not ‘maybe’ but “it will” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And, yet, on the other hand, Michael also wants to include “fixed” – this thing that can also be limiting – within an “umbrella” of “tuning” !!!!!!!
>>> “When thinking about this maybe it would be easier for you to think of "tuning" as an umbrella. Under this umbrella are both "fixed" and "variable" definitions, practices and results.” <<<
So, iosiP. On your reading of that latest paragraph by Michael. Would you describe a treatment giving an improvement which you would describe as “more open and expansive sound” to be “limiting it’s range of play” from the power cords ? With the original power cords (without treatment) but now producing a harshness in the sound – surely the ‘untreated’ power cords would be the ones “providing limitations” ! And, what would (might) be happening to Michael’s “audio code” with the untreated power cords ????
So many questions. As I keep saying.
Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.
I never tried the ECO 3 treatment but it might just be beneficial on the silver cord (removing harshness) but also deleterious on the stranded copper cord (making it even softer-sounding than it already is).
I do appreciate Michael's approach but my cup of tea is different: I try to apply all reasonable (and ear-tested - that is, my ears, not the reviewer's) FIXED tweaks an add a touch or two of "tunability" for those recordings where the mastering engineer was too drunk to do a good job (or my system has a weak spot).
I care for the results and I think you admit that any existent audio gear cuts some corners! I would appreciate having a pair of Harbeth LS3/5 monitors for Beethoven's piano sonatas and a pair of JBL 1600 Stacked Arrays for Mahler, each with its different amplification, but since I am no Bill Gates I have to make do with a single system... that I try to tweak for best sound and to tune differently for Bach and Yello.
Regards,
Costin
May says
"So many questions. As I keep saying."
mg
Yes, you do keep saying this, but what you don't refer to in your writings are the answers given, and this makes your posting look one direction when there are actually answers given in the form of "doing" & "results".
may
"My understanding of what Michael is NOW saying is that EVERYTHING under the sun, which changes the sound, comes within the description of “variable” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND within the description of “tuning”.
mg
You shout "NOW" as if there was a change. On our earliest prints we said "air, mass, energy, everything affects everything else". We also call our site & forum "TuneLand". I can't imagine our point being more clear, May.
There's only one reason "No wonder these threads go on and on and on !!!". May, your making them go on and on. I would suppose many here would rather get to the topics, instead of the continual lack of you understanding the answers.
may
"The ‘treatment’ with the Nordost ECO 3 liquid is a ‘fixed’ tweak. Once applied it has done it’s job. So, you can’t go back to how it was before the ‘treatment’ – so you can’t DO ‘variable’."
mg
Why not?
I've worked with both Yamaha and Steinway pianos. Two different builds, sounds and finishes. Both tunable!
may
"Say the improvement in the sound is less harshness, with more open and expansive sound."
mg
May, why would a high end audio designer build cables that were harsh with less open and expansive sound? Who's audio cable are you "pooh-poohing"?
mg
I'm not sure why some in this hobby try to make things that are simple physics into these miracle must have drugs. I guess they have a need to prey on those who have limited knowledge and experience. They of course also have their pocketbooks to think about. Why instead don't they just come out and say there are physical properties that take place that affect the sound and we should learn how to treat them. More we should learn "what they are". Instead people like May would rather take something as understandable as static and turn it into these "must have" questions that need to be answered by these mysterious "must have" formulas of magic potions. Now I could care less about what potion anyone chooses to deal with the events of nature, but when we start to make all of this rumble and hokus-pokus up about simple facts of nature, it makes my skin crawl. I try not to say much and encourage those who are being pushy to back off, but when they don't I have no choice.
FACT IS
Audiophiles, fact is you can go to your favorite pharmacy and pickup tons of different components to make up your own audio-creams. You can also go to your local home depot and hobby shops to pickup and make your own spectum light diffusers. While your at it, you should consider picking up a high end dehumidifier, which you will need to keep both the cream and other physics tweaks stable.
Did you know that your local Schumann Resonances change according to your humidity settings and altitude?
If May wishes to get specific, than by all means lets go at it, but I have yet to see specifics from her within the last two years. She says I pooh-pooh products when I'm doing nothing more than trying to stay somewhat quiet so they can make a living, but if she continues to paint us in a negative light why don't we all wake up and call this for what it is. If the audiophile doesn't understand fields and static and humidity and pressure, light and all the other variables, lets talk about them. Lets get real about what affects what and why. Let's also get off of these stupid spins and take some time to study a little before opening the holes on the front of our faces. Quite frankly isn't it a little embarrassing that a (any) reviewer would say "it made a difference, but I don't know how" and then not follow it up with the how and why? Or to have someone in the industry waving the "I don't know the answer" flag as May and geoff keep doing?
Where does this stop kids?
Are you guys telling me you can't "do" your own research into the why and how's of this hobby? I can't believe I am in a hobby that can't reason any better than this, and at the same time act so much like they are some kind of an authority. Are you guys telling me you can build $133,000.00 amps and can't explain simple physics? You take things like static, resonances, fields, atmospheric conditions, pressure and instead of seeing the big picture of action and reaction, you would rather spend your time focusing on one fixed point (a snap shot) of sound, not able to see the continuum that every living thing experiences every day on this planet.
May, if you don't have the answers, shame on you. You've had 90 years to explore and find them. Honestly, you would rather spend your remaining years (hope all of us live to 120) telling people there are no answers? That's not the world I live in May. I live in a world that is full of answers, and all I need to do is "do". All I need to do is learn about what makes this world turn, and what happens when A bumps into B. If you guys want to spend your time on spin cycle, it's totally your choice and you can paint what ever pictures of me or anyone who is using the answers to make our systems perform at the level we do.
But for the life of me I can't imagine why May would spend so much life trying to debate the issue of variable.
May, why do you think static happens? Cause we're spinning. May, why does the electromagnetic field happen? Because we're spinning. Why the Schumann Resonances? Cause, that's right, we're spinning. Why May are we spinning? Because nature "IS" motion, May. May, why do we have the laws of physics and the theories of relativity and the thousands of others? Because all of this is made up of various qualities and quantities.
May, tuning is anytime you apply any adjustment or make any change within the nature of physics: the natural science that involves the study of matter and its motion through space and time, along with related concepts such as energy and force. May, is there something you don't understand about motion, space or time that makes you fight against what I'm doing so vigorously? You try so hard to attempt to over-turn the laws of nature, why don't you just go with the flow of nature and live in harmony with it?
I find it interesting that so many say plug and play and completely over look the meaning of "play". They completely mischaracterize the act in action. To be more to the point May Belt, show me one thing on this planet that is standing still? Show me one thing in audio that doesn't change?
My dear your fighting again for the sake of fighting and nothing else.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Michael wrote,
"May, why do you think static happens? Cause we're spinning. May, why does the electromagnetic field happen? Because we're spinning. Why the Schumann Resonances? Cause, that's right, we're spinning. Why May are we spinning? Because nature "IS" motion, May. May, why do we have the laws of physics and the theories of relativity and the thousands of others? Because all of this is made up of various qualities and quantities."
Michael, Michael, this is pure folly! This is what was bound to happen when you take a couple of "technical courses" and try to pretend you are a physics guy. Don't you know that all the laws of physics apply anywhere in the universe in any frame of reference? It doesn't matter if were spinning, standing still, moving around the sun at high speed, revolving around the Milky Way at great velocity, or moving outward in the expanding sphere of the universe from the Big Bang at even greater velocity. The laws of physics are independent of our motion, spinning as you call it. Motion is relative. So, all of your examples are in fact independent of spinning. Static electricity, electromagnetic fields and the Schumann frequency are well understood and are produced by physical conditions that are INDEPENDENT of the Earth's motion, including it's spin. In addition, ironically perhaps, both static electricity and Schumann frequency are fixed, not variable. We know that the Schumann frequency is 7.83 Hz. It's not variable. We've already been through all that. Hel-loo! It is fixed because the circumference of the Earth is fixed. But has nothing to do with our spinning. It's really just you spinning a tale that gives a naive person the impression that you have some idea of physics. Case closed. Isn't there anyone over at TunnelLand who has the physics background to discuss these physics topics here? I recognize your need to drop physics terms as if you actually know what they mean but really don't you think enough is enough?
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
No Thanks geoff, I'll stick with the laws of physics if it's OK with you. But I do appreciate you making your level of knowledge clear.
BTW, I see you refering to Schumann Resonances. My question would be, if 7.83hz is independent of motion (quoting geoff) "The laws of physics are independent of our motion", why are the schumann resonances asigned motion (hertz or cycles) values?
It appears to me, for a motionless world there sure are a lot of references to moving.
let's make it easy boys and girls "Geoff's laws of physics are independent of our motion"
Did you ever wonder geoff, why so many people from so many backgrounds all agree that you are fairly stupid? Not only stupid, but arguementively so. Meaning you help prove with your own words your own stupidity. Maybe that's too harsh of a word, but than again stupid: lacking intelligence or common sense. I would add, and or common sense. So geoff why do you think all these folks think this of you?
Then, you say stuff like "case closed" as if some how you have made things final. Dude your an internet troll and very little more. I don't think I have seen one intellectual debate you have had with anyone, come out in your favor. I mean every single one of them crashes and burns.
http://www.bing.com/search?q=Geoff+KAIT+Fraud&FORM=R5FD
sorry, but I can't even imagine, a man who lives to be noticed by nothing but his trolling reputation
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
What else can a high school graduate and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt on that except try to use sarcasm and that inimitable Michael Greed style to stay on the thread. I don't know anyone who thinks I'm stupid. I do know a lot of people don't like what I say sometimes. I think of myself more as a song and dance man. One assumes that the folks over on TunnelLand are a more educated and reasonable bunch than yourself. A bunch capable of learning. Have you ever been diagnosed with a learning disability? Just curious.
Have a nice day....and good luck with all those emotions.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamics
In terms of Evasion, Obfuscation, Denial, and Delusion, Geoffy's fanmail says he's one of the best.
Google search "Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica"...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1361402869&openflup&77&4
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Machina-Dynamica/Falls-Church-Maryland-22042/Machina-Dynamica-False-claims-about-electronic-enhancement-products-Falls-Church-Maryland-286484
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/everything-else/145765-diy-teleportation-tweak-clc.html
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?101564-The-Official-SB-Audiophile-Forum-Quantum-Audio-Fruitloopery-List/page9
On and on...
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