You are here

Log in or register to post comments
rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am
Mu Metal & cork

Geoff, Michael, and All:

I am intending on isolating the two transformers in my NAD 516 with Mu Metal as well as cork for the circuit boards as was positively documented and experienced by the Pittsburgh crew.

I looked online and found there are several varieties and thicknesses of Mu Metal, all the way down to a flexible tin foil.

There are also many varieties of cork and thicknesses.

Could either of you make my research a lot easier and provide a recommended thickness of Mu Metal and source as well as a recommended thickness and type of cork and source?

Thanks In Advance,

Ron

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
Pass

Hi Ron

I'm gonna pass on this one. If you want to take this up on TuneLand that's cool with us, but I'm going to pass on this one here.

We have been swamped with clients over the past few days and need to be working on their systems.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Mu metal and sliced fingers

Ron, whatever Mu Metal you decide to use let me make a suggestion. Get some 7" angled tin snips that put a beveled edge on the metal when you cut it otherwise you will find out the hard way just how sharp the edges of mu metal are. The tin snips are inexpensive and can be found on eBay for about five bucks. Also keep in mind that mu metal is conductive, obviously.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am
Reply Geoff

Holy sh!t good point! I honestly wasn't thinking about the dangers of working around some pretty high-powered electrical components with a CONDUCTOR! Thank you for that heads' up!

I already do own a pair of tin snips (actually pretty expensive for the "good ones" that do leave a kind edge.

Thank You,

Ron

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Conductive

There is some danger if you don't think about it or you're unaware of the potential problem. That's why I mentioned it. Always turn the unit off and unplug it before applying mu metal anywhere. If you wish you can wrap the mu metal with tape or some other non-conductive material. When wrapping the transformer square the metal away by using a piece of tape to secure the mu metal onto the transformer. Mu metal should also be placed under and above the transformer, one layer or two is even better.

Cheers.
Geoff Akita
Machina Dynamica

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am
Re: Geoff

Geoff:

Thank you for the seriously detailed and excellent advice.

Is there a thickness that is preferred? I would like to order this stuff ASAP.

Also, Any idea on what kind of cork and thickness for the as well?

Respectfully,

Ron

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Thickness

Order Ultraperm 80 on eBay. For cork get the natural cork for musical instruments in thickness of 1/16" and 1/8". You will find it on eBay but for rapid delivery don't order from China. You can order cork in smaller rectangles or 4" x 6" size.

Hope that helps,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Mu metal and cork, any progress?
rrstesiak wrote:

Geoff:

Thank you for the seriously detailed and excellent advice.

Is there a thickness that is preferred? I would like to order this stuff ASAP.

Also, Any idea on what kind of cork and thickness for the as well?

Respectfully,

Ron

Hey, how's it going with the mu metal and cork experiment? It's been a couple weeks so I thought I'd check in.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am
re geoff

Geoff:

Thank you for checking up on my system!

I have been busy with some research and other work; however, I am also going to move in a different direction and actually remove the transformers and possible other components from the case; providing what I think to be better sonics than even using the Mu metal approach.

HOWEVER, if aesthetics and a warranty were very important to me, or if the unit was significantly more expensive, I would still give the Mu Metal and Cork a good try.

Respectfully,

Ron

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Mu metal and cork
rrstesiak wrote:

Geoff:

Thank you for checking up on my system!

I have been busy with some research and other work; however, I am also going to move in a different direction and actually remove the transformers and possible other components from the case; providing what I think to be better sonics than even using the Mu metal approach.

HOWEVER, if aesthetics and a warranty were very important to me, or if the unit was significantly more expensive, I would still give the Mu Metal and Cork a good try.

Respectfully,

Ron

Thanks for the update. If I can be so bold, removing the transformer from the chassis, as interesting as that might be, does not solve the problem that occurs when the signal passes through the transformer no matter where the transformer is relocated to, what with the rather large induced magnetic field of the transformer acting on the signal. So even if the transformer is relocated to another room, well, I'm sure you see what I mean. As for vibrations, they are still a problem for the chassis and it's contents thanks to structureborne and or airborne vibration, no?

Therefore, I suspect that in reality the mu metal and cork solution would be audibly quite superior to your present solution. The only good vibration or magnetic field is one that's dead.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
demo

geoff says

"Therefore, I suspect that in reality the mu metal and cork solution would be audibly quite superior to your present solution. The only good vibration or magnetic field is one that's dead."

Yet geoff has never demo-ed or experienced this successfuly for himself.

If there are no vibrations, how than does geoff hear? Dead magnetic field? Are we on the same planet.

We invite geoff to come to TuneLand and learn more about tuning. Doing and sharing is science, "I suspect" lives more in the world of fiction.

Whether Ron uses cork and or Mu-metal or not, he is exploring audio with options, variable options that put him in control of his system. "that's scientifically sound"

ever present

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_magnetic_field

ever changing

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/29dec_magneticfield.html

Ron is exploring a far bigger world than opinions and spectulations. Instead of closing in his hobby he is opening up the potential of his listening experience. I for one am glad to welcome Ron to a more openminded way of approaching this hobby and science. This is certainly no put down to shielding, but from my point of view seeing shielding as a fixed view-point for something is the proper view, not fixing something that is broken. This hobby doesn't hang on only two choices, live or dead. It's a hobby of variables and the more we understand those variables the closer we get to being part of the solution, or should I say equation.

Dead vibrations, dead magnetic field? It seems to me that both of these play a huge role in our hobby, as well as our existence. It's a fools fiction to pretend physics doesn't exist. Only someone who has not gone far enough in this science would say kill instead of tune. The deeper any of us go, the more variable this hobby becomes.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
The Backfire Effect in full bloom

As I have been saying for the past year or so getting rid of the transformer is the best solution. But apparently it has fallen on deaf ears, the deaf ears of folks who have become so enamored of their own words and beliefs they refuse to consider anything that contradicts their precious beliefs. It's nothing more than the sound of Backfire Effect rattling around in your head.

BACKFIRE EFFECT

The backfire effect occurs when, in the face of contradictory evidence, established beliefs do not change but actually get stronger. The effect has been demonstrated experimentally in psychological tests, where subjects are given data that either reinforces or goes against their existing biases - and in most cases people can be shown to increase their confidence in their prior position regardless of the evidence they were faced with. In a pessimistic sense, this makes most refutations useless.

By eliminating the transformer altogether (as they do with Output Transformer-less amps) you get rid of the large magnetic field the transformer produces, the field that poisons the signal not only in anything in proximity to the transformer but the signal that runs through the transformer itself. The problem with the magnetic fields is even worse than I am describing as current running through all wires and cables in the system produces the unfortunate side effect of the induced magnetic field. This is precisely the problem that mu metal solves when used on transformers - it reduces the effects of the magnetic field on electronic components inside the chassis, you know, by ABSORBING THE FIELD BEFORE IT CAN DO ANY DAMAGE. Because the mu metal is an absorber, not simply a shield, it has the added benefit of reducing the effect of the magnetic field on the wiring of the transformer itself. If mu metal were only a shield that would not be the case. In fact mu is the symbol for permeability, I.e., absorption of the magnetic field. The magnetic field issue also raises it's ugly head in power cords, interconnects...all cables. Again, to bring you up to date, I have eliminated almost all of these magnetic field issues related to cables by ELIMINATING (MOST OF) THE CABLES, INTERCONNECTS AND POWER CORDS THEMSELVES. Hel-looo!! If you're having trouble keeping up you might consider asking Ron to explain it to you.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 11 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am
My take

All:

Ideally, I would like to also try Mu metal and cork.... I just am feeling that physical isolation from the entire chassis is a stronger approach to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

As for teaching other people, I am only a student where most around me are teachers. I look forward to learning on here every week.

Best Regards,

Ron

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
doing just fine :)

I think your doing just fine Ron. Plug and play is just the beginning of this hobby as you have been finding out.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Physics explanation
michael green wrote:

I think your doing just fine Ron. Plug and play is just the beginning of this hobby as you have been finding out.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you didn't ask Ron for his explanation why the transformer no matter where it's located is still a problem.

"It's what I choose to believe." Old audiophile expression

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
going deeper on topics

If someone wants to go deeper on a specific topic, I would recommend they spend time on TuneLand where we actually "do" things and then talk about them. Old TuneLand expression :)

The reason you can't judge for yourself geoff is because you don't "do".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Blah and more blah

I suggest you start your own thread thread on whatever bizarre things you guys do over on TunnelLand instead of poisoning this thread with more of your crap. If you don't know anything about mu metal and cork just say you don't know. It's OK. See if Ron will sit down with you and (slowly) explain the facts of life regarding transformers, electromagnetic waves and magnetic fields.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
TuneLand, thanks for the plug :)

Hi geoff

Thanks for your interest in TuneLand. Here is the link http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ to the forum since you asked.

When you stop by to visit be sure to register and start your own personal system thread.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Cute!
michael green wrote:

Hi geoff

Thanks for your interest in TuneLand. Here is the link http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ to the forum since you asked.

When you stop by to visit be sure to register and start your own personal system thread.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Trolling for naive gullible hobbyists on the Internet is not something to be exactly proud of, Mr. Greed. Not that I'm surprised at your desperation, your greed or lack of character. Have you considered placing an ad on Craigslist? Something like, "looking for naive easily influenced audiophiles to participate in group obsessive compulsive experiments. No experience necessary."

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Not Even Geoffy!

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/isolation/messages/6776.html

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
I am the bearer of bad news

The bad news is that you're actually mentally defective. I trust you're not the typical TunnelLand member, hanger-on, whatever, who knows?

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Geoffy Reduction

"You are a perfect

Posted by unclestu (D) on September 7, 2011 at 16:04:07

In Reply to: More huffing and puffing posted by geoffkait on September 4, 2011 at 08:58:57:

example of all the faults you enumerate.

LOL!

Stu

PS:

Fact one:

You claimed to be a theoretical physicist.

Fact two:
You posted explanations outside of AA, so hiding behind the mission statement does not apply. Since the ISO mission statement is to encourage discussion in an enlightened manner, it is clear that you are avoiding the issue at hand.

Fact three:
You have yet to prove that the effect is "real". At least May acknowledges that she believe the effect is on the listener's mind i.e. psychosomatic.

Fact four:
Burden of proof? LOL! Who was it that proposed that NASA jump in with an experiment? Yes you avoid the issue of proving anything, because , quite obviously, either you are afraid to submit to testing or you don't know how to conduct an impartial test.

Fact five:
When confronted with your extremely limited credentials and the fact that your "explanations" outside the forum are truly bogus in that thert is nothing "scientific" about them in terms of postulating a cause and effect, you run and hide behind "mission statements" and a total ignoring of answering the issues raised.

Do you ever think about what you write before posting? Your contradictions are so evident that no one reading your comments can put any trust in your writings.

As for your 12 foot room, how the hell did you develop the means to recommend placement of the crystals about your speakers? Don't have a living room available? You sound like a high school kid that never grew up.

Stu"

When people figure you out, this is who you are.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
The erection persists

Gosh, you really are stupid. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you are even slower than Stu.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
No Facts About Geoffy...

The same comments and questions about you persist all over the internet.

It's all about you Geoffy.

You create "opponents" and criticism towards yourself.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
If the erection persists for more than 3 hours see your doctor

You're truly an idiot. Lots of folks say stupid and mean things about others on the Internet. People like you. It's how the Internet works. Don't you know that?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Stupid and Mean Things

all about you.

Calling me an idiot doesn't change the fact that these mean and stupid comments are about you.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
and to be honest....

even on a debate level, both geoff & May usually don't fair very well with others they choose to debate against. I don't really consider myself on the debate team, I'm more confident than that. If I haven't done it, I don't bother making it up, it's more likely I'll go "do". My own insecurities cause me to check and cross-check my work, and bring others in to cross-check my work even more. I've been put in too many absolute choice making places to make things up. If I do an "IF" you will usually find me sweating it out till I get a good practical application session in. Being the QC of so many systems and methods leaves little rest.

The one thing that you do pick up along the way though, with my own personal checking & re-checking, is when someone is playing salesman for a topic or idea they don't understand themselves. People who are lying to you are going to create patterns in their debating styles that allows them to keep the debate going without ever producing a result or actknowledging a result when given it. In May's case she figures out a way to keep repeating herself as if the questions she asks are new and fresh even long after the answers and explainations are given. When cornered she'll deny that there was ever any conclusion. May uses the "IF" and "un-finished" as her door to stay relevant. Geoff on the other hand is much more in pain about his need to be relevant. I believe geoff battles with being a psychopath. When I read most of his posts I see this "a person with a psychopathic personality, which manifests as amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc."

I'm guessing most internet trolls are probably psychopathic or sociopaths: "a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience" by nature. To what degree who knows, but if you look at the patterns of both over the many years you see the exact same debates with the exact same results. I honestly believe the both of them don't have the tools to get outside of their patterns, and to them the repeat button is as close to comfortable as they can get. If you keep hitting repeat you don't have to accept responsibility or change. You can always blame the other guy or use the same patterns and just change the names.

You see geoff wriggles and squirms and attempts to use whatever technique he can to paint pictures that deflect away from him as being responsible. My first tip to his patterns was his tactic of not being cornered to long before the lists of disoders someone else has and not him comes out. Second part to his pattern is to play the reversal trick. "backfire effect", "strawman argument" and a bunch of other cases he will bring up that others have when asking him to explain. Once someone like geoff makes up his mind to deflect it turns to all about others being wrong at any cost, including playing the victim card as often as possible, trying to somehow make others look like bad guys instead of building relationships of commonalities.

I think that both May and geoff have built such extensive track patterns, that to break the cycle to them would be too costly at their age. It's like belief in the belief system right or wrong at that point, just because it is easier.

Further I think the both of them would have been a lot better off in life doing that one thing stated above, being open "first" to building relationships, rather than using their patterns as a means to stay "correct" in their own minds. They fail to actknowledge that all humans feel "correct" or "incorrect" in their minds as a quality of uniqueness not a weakness. To people not able to open up to learning, they see others as the fault and not able to see their own resistance to what they accuse others of being. Again geoff in this case will come back with a reversal of some sort instead of a chance to build on understanding. It's easier for him to cause a negative debate or deflection of some sort rather than build a bridge. For May it's an endless challenge instead of a sitdown listening session to obtain the proof or some means of resolving her questions other than word spins.

For both it's a quest that has nothing to do with music and everything to do with staying relevant in some way. If you can't make it happen, make it look like you can make it happen is their mind set. Everything they talk about could be dealt with in two simple steps. One a change of mindset from isolation to relationship building, and second to look for the positive first before the need to trump.

They of course as I have said will need to respond to this with another opposite view as this is their goal, not the actual building of proof through reasonable means.

That's what I truly see and feel about May and geoff. Saying all this our door is still open.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
What a maroon
ChrisS wrote:

all about you.

Calling me an idiot doesn't change the fact that these mean and stupid comments are about you.

But they're lies, you knucklehead. Like your Master, Michael's. I'm going to have to clunk your heads together.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Oh, geez, not again!
michael green wrote:

even on a debate level, both geoff & May usually don't fair very well with others they choose to debate against. I don't really consider myself on the debate team, I'm more confident than that. If I haven't done it, I don't bother making it up, it's more likely I'll go "do". My own insecurities cause me to check and cross-check my work, and bring others in to cross-check my work even more. I've been put in too many absolute choice making places to make things up. If I do an "IF" you will usually find me sweating it out till I get a good practical application session in. Being the QC of so many systems and methods leaves little rest.

The one thing that you do pick up along the way though, with my own personal checking & re-checking, is when someone is playing salesman for a topic or idea they don't understand themselves. People who are lying to you are going to create patterns in their debating styles that allows them to keep the debate going without ever producing a result or actknowledging a result when given it. In May's case she figures out a way to keep repeating herself as if the questions she asks are new and fresh even long after the answers and explainations are given. When cornered she'll deny that there was ever any conclusion. May uses the "IF" and "un-finished" as her door to stay relevant. Geoff on the other hand is much more in pain about his need to be relevant. I believe geoff battles with being a psychopath. When I read most of his posts I see this "a person with a psychopathic personality, which manifests as amoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc."

I'm guessing most internet trolls are probably psychopathic or sociopaths: "a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience" by nature. To what degree who knows, but if you look at the patterns of both over the many years you see the exact same debates with the exact same results. I honestly believe the both of them don't have the tools to get outside of their patterns, and to them the repeat button is as close to comfortable as they can get. If you keep hitting repeat you don't have to accept responsibility or change. You can always blame the other guy or use the same patterns and just change the names.

You see geoff wriggles and squirms and attempts to use whatever technique he can to paint pictures that deflect away from him as being responsible. My first tip to his patterns was his tactic of not being cornered to long before the lists of disoders someone else has and not him comes out. Second part to his pattern is to play the reversal trick. "backfire effect", "strawman argument" and a bunch of other cases he will bring up that others have when asking him to explain. Once someone like geoff makes up his mind to deflect it turns to all about others being wrong at any cost, including playing the victim card as often as possible, trying to somehow make others look like bad guys instead of building relationships of commonalities.

I think that both May and geoff have built such extensive track patterns, that to break the cycle to them would be too costly at their age. It's like belief in the belief system right or wrong at that point, just because it is easier.

Further I think the both of them would have been a lot better off in life doing that one thing stated above, being open "first" to building relationships, rather than using their patterns as a means to stay "correct" in their own minds. They fail to actknowledge that all humans feel "correct" or "incorrect" in their minds as a quality of uniqueness not a weakness. To people not able to open up to learning, they see others as the fault and not able to see their own resistance to what they accuse others of being. Again geoff in this case will come back with a reversal of some sort instead of a chance to build on understanding. It's easier for him to cause a negative debate or deflection of some sort rather than build a bridge. For May it's an endless challenge instead of a sitdown listening session to obtain the proof or some means of resolving her questions other than word spins.

For both it's a quest that has nothing to do with music and everything to do with staying relevant in some way. If you can't make it happen, make it look like you can make it happen is their mind set. Everything they talk about could be dealt with in two simple steps. One a change of mindset from isolation to relationship building, and second to look for the positive first before the need to trump.

They of course as I have said will need to respond to this with another opposite view as this is their goal, not the actual building of proof through reasonable means.

That's what I truly see and feel about May and geoff. Saying all this our door is still open.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

What are you going on about, now? I don't think I've ever seen anyone who can write long paragraphs and go on and on yet say absolutely nothing quite like you. You're quite unique in that regard. My advice - go back to school.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
LIes...

Only to you.

Everyone can just read your posts.

(Yes, quite right! We must make our condemnations of you absolutely clear to everyone.)

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
English spoken here?

I suggest you take a remedial English class. You sound rather uneducated, frankly.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Go Back To Grade 5, Geoffy!!

And learn how to do "science" like the grade school kids!

Geoffy wrote...

"Take a cable with a black jacket and listen to it so younger [sic] an idea what it sounds like. Then wrap the outside of the black jacket say 1/4 the length with WHITE electrical tape. Listen to the cable again. You should be able to hear the sound is better with the white tape around the jacket."

Go back to http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml and read where you went wrong here.

Are you smarter than a 5th Grader, Geoffy?

Nope.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
gathering the facts

While all the chatter rings from the corner of May & Geoff, I've been gathering amps in my not so spare time to do testing with. I might pick up a few more but I already have enough to do some transformer shielding, isolating and or tuning with. I have my Mu-metal and instrument cork standing by.

One thing to report on already is the removal of some of these transformers outer "shielding" jackets. Some products come with shielding casings around their transformers to begin with. With a little careful prying they can be removed. In all cases so far I have heard the system open up greatly when removed. Also, and this is harder to do, I have chiseled away at the center core of the toroidal transformers, so I can compare hollow and filled.

This is no new exercise for me, and I will pull from past experience as well as real time listening. In all of this I want people to understand how variable your system can be if you have the will to make it so. I won't be playing the better or worst card as much as possible but more the actual change. What you get with your systems and your own personal taste is completely owned by you. I don't have any interest in swaying ones personal listening preferences, just an interest in showing some choices.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Hiccup

No text

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Shielding

Geez, for a second there I was expecting you to actually claim the "shielding" you removed from around the transformers was mu metal. Or the equivalent of mu metal. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it would appear there is considerable confusion on your part on the role of mu metal in dealing with transformers.

This is all very suspicious in any case.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
A question for geoffy kramer

Hi geoffy & readers

It continues to seem that geoff kait wishes to place himself in some type of authority as if some here takes him serious. If it is not too much trouble can you recall transformers and chassis that have been made for or by you or perhaps any of the transformer companies you associate with?

Reason I ask is because several times in the past you have stated positions on topics and we then find out that you have not explored the topic by actually doing at all. Such is the case with Schumann Resonance Devices. For the sake of all who read maybe we should consider what you say with a truck load of salt and the intent of only trolling the thread, which is your practice on many audio forums http://www.bing.com/search?q=geoff+kait+troll&pc=Z161&form=ZGAIDF&install_date=20111120&iesrc=IE-Address Personally I think we need to be aware of your reputation before getting too involved with you as an actual voice on any topic.

Saying this regarding the Mu-metal topic it would be good if you could state your personal involvement ahead of time and proof of this before getting too engaged in rants or the topic matter.

What I am doing is practical application and giving listening results. I'm not here to make Mu-metal a villain but to simply explain the materials sounds as I use them.

Maybe geoff will wish to explain the differences between the many types of shielding that are used in audio and the transformers, or maybe quote Wiki and add to the topic. Others may jump in at any time as well, but be clear I am only doing listening tests. If any wish to add with their experiences this could be a good thread. Maybe we can even keep trolling to a minimum. If not, I will simply ask those of you interested to join us on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ so you can avoid the trolling here.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Gosh, that's interesting (tongue in cheek)

It's becoming very obvious that not only are you a liar but also have no idea what you're talking about most of the time. I trust others will see this pattern of lying, mischaracterization, memory failures and plain old ignorance as clearly as I do. I may respond further in the morning but this is fine for now.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
You Like To Repeat Yourself, Over And Over Again...

Don't you, Geoffy?

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1361402869&openflup&67&4#67

And your popularity keeps spreading...

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1361402869&openflup&80&4#80

More exchanges with your fan club... Nice that you change your cartoons occasionally...

http://www.stereophile.com/content/machina-dynamicas-brand-new-product-1

Geoffy Debunks Himself!!

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/artificial-atoms-used-to-improve-compact-discs.198220/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Bad, Princess, bad!!

Bad dog!

 photo photo_50_zpsvb6lsfz4.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Mu metal

Michael wrote,

"Maybe geoff will wish to explain the differences between the many types of shielding that are used in audio and the transformers, or maybe quote Wiki and add to the topic. Others may jump in at any time as well, but be clear I am only doing listening tests. If any wish to add with their experiences this could be a good thread. Maybe we can even keep trolling to a minimum. If not, I will simply ask those of you interested to join us on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ so you can avoid the trolling here."

Don't you even know what mu metal is? Geez! You know, rather than trying to drive naive audiophiles over to TunnelLand where the streets end at the edge of town you might try, just once to address the topic. But that would be expecting too much. in your bizarre world a troll is someone who knows something you don't and forces you to use personal attacks to try to get a leg up. Same church, different pew. And you refer to TunnelLand as some sort of pro testing facility. That's hilarious!

Everything is topsy- turvy. Me topsy, you turvy. Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
doing is believing

As we await geoff providing us with his personal testing, which doesn't seem to have ever happened, I wanted to give an update.

Before applying any additional shielding I want to explain a simple few tweaks that almost all of you can do. Look at your units and you will find with most, there are cable ties holding the wires in place. Snip these wires and separate the cables. Play for about 3 to 4 hours straight and you will hear the stage start to loosen up and your front to back image should grow some. Heavier products you won't hear as much change, lighter weight (lower mass) ones and the change will be bigger.

Next raise your transformers up from the floor of the chassis. Transformers should never be on the same plane with your other amp parts. In reality all of your grouped parts should be operating on different planes. If I'm not removing my transformers away from my components I will raise them with my LTR Tuning Blocks. You can try other types of risers if you wish but for me I like the tonality of the Low Tone Redwood.

Another tweak for you way before the mu-metal is used. Purchase a good (adjustable) anti-static hair blower or even dryer. Also purchase a good anti-static equipment bush (get a few while your at it). Don't try to convert a paint brush lol. I like using a long fiber round type. You'll need to develope your own method based on where you live and the humidity, but after a few go rounds you will eventually learn how to energize your brush and then use it to remove the static around your parts. I may do a chemical static remove in places of heavy carpet and let the area reset, but after this I find that dryer treatments work fairly well. If you have setup a hair dryer you can build a shelf to set the brush on before using. Mine is a kinda like a wooden grill so the baking can go around the brush.

When I have my brush ready I'll then turn off my components and do my brushing. It's more of a light dusting, just enough to de-fuse the static charge. I get better results with the equipment fairly warm (just turned off). You can do this cold but the charge comes back faster.

So I pickup my transformer, static treat then set my transformer down on the tuning block or blocks.

Why do I do this first before Mu-metal?

Many times I find that the distortion from transformers is because of two things. One they're too close to other parts and materials, and two the charge that builds up around them doesn't have a good way to dis-charge (dissipate). I understand mu-metal shielding for industrial parts, but when we're talking about the audio signal we shouldn't always think kill. When we go to dampen we also, most of the time, are taking away part of the signal along with the energy we're wishing to isolate. The more you reference this the easier it is to hear what comes up missing.

Here's again the way I look at playing audio. Audio is a signal made up of a language and physics. If we can harmonize the energies, allowing for proper dissipation, we are way ahead of the game over trying to kill or choke out part of the signal. Any time we apply any type of filtering there's always a chance that we are sacrificing one part of the audio code for another.

If you have no choice than I recommend going slowly studying the signal as you shield. If you do have a choice there are other methods to use that may allow you to keep more of the recordings you love.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Back off, Bugaloo!

We've already been through all that. I understand your neurotic need for people to view you as some sort of authority on everything but there is already a thread on mu metal I started and that was demonstrated to work along with cork for the various components under test by the two dudes from Pittsburgh. Your insipid attitude is not an acceptable response in this or any other thread. You know what I'm talking about, just to mark your territory with murky and misinformed rumblings about nothing. Back off, Bugaloo! If you don't know the difference between a steel or aluminum housing and mumetal get thee to a library!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
thread?

Hi Geoff

You started a thread on Mu-metal. Could you give us a link.

geoff said

"I understand your neurotic need for people to view you as some sort of authority on everything but there is already a thread on mu metal I started and that was demonstrated to work along with cork for the various components under test by the two dudes from Pittsburgh."

mg

Are you refering to the thread Bill started, or is there another that we should be looking at?

Covering a topic such as this deserves as much info as needed.

geoff

"We've already been through all that."

mg

This is something both you & May do often. You act like something has been covered to a satisfactory level and it never is or was. Second thing the two of you do infamously is say things haven't been cover when they have.

If you wish to share your experiences we're all ears, but if you can not why don't you consider someone with more experience to share?

geoff

"neurotic need"

mg

You tend to do this often as well. If anyone explores a topic you start throwing out flames instead of being able to jump in the discussions in any meaningful way. Is this possibly why we find http://www.bing.com/search?q=Geoff+KAIT+Fraud&FORM=QSRE1 these types of links about you and your practices all over audio forums?

I see you mention Mr. Winer and James Randi and a member named stu along with other people in which you engage in trolling threads rather than joining the actual explorations of audio. I know you have abandoned your audio system some 8 plus years ago so in saying this, how would you call yourself more qualified to answer questions about current events without even having an in-room stereo to begin with?

You also attack peoples schooling which I must admit I find interesting. In other threads you point to you not being in any formal schooling or training since the 70's. How would you relate this to others who continued or still continue their schooling (such as myself) way beyond my grad days? I'm sure I can speak for others here and say, schooling today is far more up to date than in the 70's. It's common practice and actually a requirement to take certified classes in areas of technology in order to keep your legitimate status. So again, how is it you portray yourself as one thing and state the opposite? I've read on forums where you do a fair amount of embellishing only to get busted, many times by your own words, so with this and with the fact that you haven't had a system in quite a while, how do you find your relevance on these threads?

There are at least a handful of threads here where you admit to not having the experience or even going to the point to say "just kidding" during a topic discussion, yet you yourself paint yourself as an authority. Don't you find this to be dishonest or at a minimum deceitful? I think this is why so often you are called an audio fraud and internet troll.

On this particular thread for example, I see you doing nothing more than reading up on the topic and posting as if you have done. Same with the Schumann Resonance devices and many other issues. It's good that you bring them into view, but wouldn't it be far more acceptable if you actually partook in the doing of and then shared your findings from that viewpoint?

Anyway, I hope you will take these into consideration.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
Eat more fish

I realize you fried your memory with booze somewhere along the line but last year's thread in which the two dudes from Pittsburgh were testing mu metal and cork to isolate and damp the transformer and the circuit boards was inspired by my suggestion that they perform such tests. If you don't remember, who's fault is that? There was also a thread that Ron started more recently suggesting he was going to obtain some cork and mumetal according to my suggestion but he has apparently put that off indefinitely. I'm guessing you don't remember that thread either. Eat more fish.

Judging from your confusion and anger you not only have no experience with mu metal you don't even know what it is.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
Thought so!

So what geoff kait is saying is, all the knowledge he has to share about Mu-metel can be found on these threads he points to? I just wanted to make this clear, and you did thank you.

As well, I do like fish thank you, and I'm not much of a drinker but I have a funny feeling you would be a fair guide into that world.

So, besides saying I know nothing about Mu-metal, is this all your info on the topic? I don't wish to short change you.

Lets review shall we

geoff has never had a chassis made for him, mg has
geoff has never had a transformer made for him, mg has
geoff has never made a transformer, mg has
geoff has never compared various types of shielding, mg has
geoff has never tested the removal of a transformer from the chassis, mg has
geoff has never compared different transformer types, mg has
geoff has never tested the shield effect on other parts, mg has
geoff doesn't believe placing Mu-metal around a transformer is shielding, mg does (geoff calls it isolation)
geoff doesn't know that mg knows what Mu-metal is, mg does lol (mu-metal has a high content of Nickel followed by aloy blends depending on specs and use)
geoff hasn't had formal schooling since the 1970's, mg has
geoff has no formal schooling in electrical engineering, mg has
geoff has not used a wide range of shielding techniques and materials, mg has
geoff has not done spacial shielding, mg has

This is a brief comparison based on what geoff kait has expressed in his writing saying "We've already been through all that". Fact is we know little about how extensive geoff's schooling and training is on the topic and can only compare this topic to others where we found that geoff never really did any testing at all. Hopefully this is not the case, and now is geoff's opportunity to give his experience on this topic.

If I indeed don't know the topic geoff, I invite you to come explore it with me. If there is something both you and May wish to teach me in this area I'm happy to learn. Always useful to learn something new.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
How to tell when Michael is lying

Excellent example of misrepresentation, lying, putting words in my mouth, and ignorance. The usual, in other words. Pop Quiz: How do you know when Michael's lying? Answer: When his mouth is open.

Have a nice day.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Audio Insider

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
OR.....and I like this one better...

how to tell when Michael is telling the truth http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems . So let's see. It seems geoff gets caught up on calling people he doesn't know, or who call him out for internet trolling or even those who invite him to come share in the music liars. An interesting approach I would say. Wouldn't it be easier to do some listening?

He doesn't have the schooling, he doesn't have the experience, he doesn't come reference the music with us, and he doesn't have an audiophile stereo. What he does have is a reputation throughout the industry of fraud, trolling and as we can wittness here one crazy bad temper. I think he even threaten some guys to a physical fight on some of the other audio forums. All this to me doesn't seem like someone who is enjoying the fun of music at all, but maybe more a guy who hasen't such a positive outlook on life, and as I said earlier perhaps some other issues.

So why don't you let me send you a plane ticket and you can visit with me and we'll do some good listening together, nice eats and entertainment. You can come over with all your tweaks and I'll give you the keys and let you loose. What do you say? Instead of talking lets get you and May into the listening part of this hobby.

Oh that's right I forgot, we offered this to you and May before and you said what? Something about never and May saying a system isn't necessary to talk about stereos. You guys make an interesting couple.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

May Belt
May Belt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 3 days ago
Joined: May 8 2006 - 1:51am
Will you please stop it , Michael.

>>> “and May saying a system isn't necessary to talk about stereos.” <<<

Michael. You are at it YET AGAIN. Will you PLEASE stop misrepresenting what I say.

I DO NOT say that “a system is not necessary to talk about stereos”.

What I have said, and said regularly, is that one does not need to HAVE A LIST OF what audio equipment I am listening to this week or last week or last month for me to be able to (or be allowed to) take part in discussions of what affects ‘sound’ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
PWB Electronics.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 52 min ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
A desperate character

Mr. Greed has been reduced on this and many other threads here to name calling, mischaracterization, lying, buffoonery, megalomania, and repeating the lies and personal attacks of other nitwits around the Internet. All of this in an attempt to mark his territory on threads like some grinning hyena peeing on a tree. Maybe it's time for Mr. Greed to take a stress tab and a time out.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
ChrisS's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 hours 29 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Geoffy, Take A Test...

...any test.

http://illnessquiz.com/agitated-depression-test/

http://illnessquiz.com/alcohol-addiction-test/

http://illnessquiz.com/antisocial-personality-disorder-test/

http://illnessquiz.com/dissociative-identity-disorder-test/

http://illnessquiz.com/histrionic-personality-test/

Perhaps the test you would most be interested in taking...

http://illnessquiz.com/does-he-like-me-quiz/

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
Yep! and more on the testing

I agree Chris, there has to be some kind of disorder going on with geoff and others who internet troll. I can't understand why someone would want to completely obliterate their reputation on a public forum. Especially on a forum that has to do with their line of work.

At the same time this serves to show audiophiles certain personalities within the hobby and how, I would say, more than a few make their living or at least in some twisted type of way have a need to be known. Whatever the case it is a little on the weird side to have two people do everything in their power to avoid the act of listening on an audio forum.

Anyway strange as their posting is, I've been having fun playing with both the Mu-metal & the Cork, and the other field tweaks I've been doing. It's good to revisit tweaks, even sometimes if they are tweaks we have moved away from somewhat.

I'm doing most of the testing in Room #2 where it's been easier to get to some of the parts, such as the wall outlets as well as transformers and other parts. So far the listening has resulted in "trade-offs" and not so much "improvements". As we have been saying, it's important when testing that one takes their time and doesn't get too caught up in the "flash" moment of change. This is also a case where I am able to test placement of the parts and other materials around the electronics, which is giving more to the signal than just trade-offs.

This tweak depends as much on the mindset of the person doing as it does the actual doing. Here's what I mean. If you take a stock unit all crammed together and built like a battleship and do the Mu-metal I can see why one would like it (maybe). However start to remove the restrains on that same unit and apply the Mu-metal the same way and the results are mixed. There's clearly a difference between the two mindsets, opening up and closing in. When I applied the Mu-metal to the stock unit I could hear into the music more, but it came with a signature that sounded more Hi Fi than raw notes. Good on one hand and a little disturbing on the other. Involved as the music was, I felt like I was in a Hi Fi box, and moving away from the room it felt like the music didn't carry with me. I'll get into this more later.

The cork is more interesting to me (well maybe), because this is the type of tuning I do every day and I was able to compare the cork to many other materials, such as balsa wood, corrugated cardboard, honeycomb wood, natural sea sponge and others. All of these have their own presention and comes down to how far someone wants to go in the area of transfer tuning.

Also a good time for a note. Just because something is called instrument cork, doesn't mean they all sound the same. This thread should be one that opens us up to many different thoughts and not limited to isolation or not, cause this would be a mistake and at best nearsighted. Both with the Mu-metal and the cork there are tons of adjustments to be made and this means neither of these two are isolating, but more interchanging or intermingling with the associated energy surrounding the area.

Another note which I refered to above, is the actual design of each component as far as layout. We need to spend more time looking at not only the parts used but also the layout of the parts and explore the math of electronic part spacing and function. There's a ton to be learned here when these components are taken out of their housings and spread out. And this is where the field and vibratory signatures should be studied by the industry and is not. To take the next step in design or understand why low mass or proper spacing is so important we should take a step back and look at the whole components in a box concept and pick it apart some.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Pages

  • X