I am interested- Ron.
KOB is the most-important Jazz album ever produced.

Stuck at work right now.

:-(

:)

One of the most important threads ever posted here on Stereophile!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I have Kind of Blue on cassette. I will use this digitally remastered cassette for my eval even though I also have the bog standard CD of KOB. We shall see in my report why I choose the cassette for the eval. I will use my new acquisition, a Sony FM/AM walkman cassette player Chrome tape capable. This particular player has been treated. Is that fair? Lol. You can see a WA quantum chip wrapped around the headphone cable as it enters the headphone plug, for example. The cassette will also be treated a number of ways, as per usual. Nothing too bizarre, Scout's honor.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Mine's coming later today....

Geoff Kait
machine Dynamica

rrstesiak wrote:

Geoff:
Are you going to review the piece with both CD and Tape? That would be a lot of work, but an interesting comparison.

If not, I think you were leaning more towards audio cassette on a low mass (portable) system. Either way, I look forward to it!

All:

And again, there is no pressure and this is everyone's chance to share their unique listening experience with a common song. That's the whole point. And remember, mostly have fun!

Kind Regards,

Ron

Yes, the comparison of cassette vs CD would be interesting. But in my humble opinion my cassette of KOB absolutely kills my CD version, just as my cassette of Heifetz Brahms concerto crushes the RCA Living Stereo CD. This was true when I had my Modded Oppo system and true today with my portable CD player. It's just more organic and analog.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Kind of Blue Review

Cassette, Columbia, digitally remastered from the original master tape, bar code no. 40579

Prep: demagnetized the cassette player including the tape head and cleaned the tape head. My trusty Sony Walkman with AM/FM radio, the one I've been listening to for the past month or so was used for the test, along with my trusty Sony Sports Walkman lightweight headphones. Nothing is stock.

Lots of air around horns. Very good transient response with no suppression or distortion that sounds like a halo around the sound as I've heard in some systems. Very tuneful and soulful, especially Coltrane and Adderly IMO. Davis' horn is very dynamic and undistorted and clear, perhaps even spitty, especially in the difficult to reproduce upper treble. More up front on this track than most of the others it occurs to me. The whole album has that tube sound down pat and despite the fact that this cassette I'm listening to is digitally remastered and being played on a stupid little Walkman cassette player the sound is very tube like and analog sounding, the Kind of Brew (lol) you almost never get from recordings after say 1970.

Very good dynamics, maybe better than some or most of the other tracks. No distortion at dynamic peaks. Saxes and are nice and mellow sounding but also sharp as a razor on riffs. Very good separation of instruments, bass line very clear. More clicking, tight tight tight. Columbia certainly knows how to record jazz as I was listening to Dave Brubeck on Columbia the other day and that recording has a lot of similarities to KOB.

The cymbal hits are very clean and not digital sounding, not quite as extended as I have heard them on a quarter million dollar system, however. But nice and natural. Very transparent and direct, tow of my favorite attributes of cassettes, in general.

The steady brush work is also correct sounding, although I used to think it was some sort of distortion on the original master tape. LOL. Interesting clicking and whirring sounds in the background, don't know what the heck that is.

The piano is correct sounding and dynamic, though a mite jangly at times on some tracks.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Ron wrote,

"My only suggestion for you: those "..interesting clicking and whirring sounds in the background.." may very well just be the actual device you are using to play the tape."

No, it's not the device. The device is very silent. It could be an artifact from the original master tape but I doubt it since it only occurs briefly on one of the tracks, who knows, it's could be brushing a drum stick around the rim of the drum. That's what makes the cassette player so fascinating - it sounds better than a CD and has less distortion.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Hi Ron

I'll be joining in after I get dug out from underneath AXPONA. We had a fairly large request response.

have fun

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

My observations mimic your own Ron- well done!

No doubt that 1959 was THE best year for Jazz music. We listeners and audiophiles, alike, were blessed w/ at least (4) masterpieces;
Kind of Blue- Miles Davis
Time Out- Dave Brubeck
The Shape of Things To Come- Ornette Coleman
Ah Um- Charles Mingus

I am sure that there could be 1 or 2 other corner-stone Jazz masterpieces from this year.
These 4 will get anyone started within the Jazz genre and will provide one hell of an education!

Pretty Earth shattering to be sure. I've heard many listeners say "59" was the birth of stereo.

nice thread!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I'll more than likely be doing my listening on 4 systems. 3 with CD and one Vinyl.

For speakers I'm going to use a couple of hy-brid, one being Music Ply and hardwood (alder/maple) , second being low mass partical and solid wood front baffle (.25" poplar instrument board), 3rd being a heat treated Blackened Brazilian Pine (maple tuning bar). Lastly a FloorStander (Music Ply, Alder, Maple and Poplar mix).

I'm going to use a Dark Star for the vinyl. Creek, Esoteric, FUNAI/Magnavox for the CDP's. Amps will be Coda, Sherwood, Vintage Pioneer and Creek. I also might bring in some Audio Note and Jolida and maybe even Jaton Audio.

Hope to see others join in as well.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I can hardly await to read your impressions- MG.
That is some wonderful gear to enjoy the music!

Women buying shoes, have nothing on us when it comes time for music shopping :)

I decided to get a few versions of KOB, including one of the mono version. I had three already but said what the heck. It's interesting how studio engineers over the years have taken some of these classics and re-visited them from their own point of view. For myself this is a sign of a truly great recording. My friends, who get involved from a distance (as long as I don't pull him and her too deeply into topics) are opening up their tapes to me if I'm willing to listen at their place. Fair enough as this means I also get in on some R2R. His Reel setup is not like mind in the respect that they like the old living room approach to listening, which to be honest on this type of music is pretty snappy. I can also listen on his wide range of headphones, which again is kind of a whos who in the history of headphones. Think about it, last night I held "kind of blue" on tape. I have to say before getting into this too far, that I'm already bias toward the R2R and even if it doesn't stack up to my soundstages, that history factor has got me "Vibed up".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Well, while my systems are warming up I couldn't help myself to have my first listen on an Akai 4000 R2R deck. Why did I pick this deck? Because as a bonus I got to hear it hooked up to Akai SW-155's baby!

After about 5 minutes of grills on I did manage to get them removed for me, and I was in Vintage Heaven. R2R, tubes and paper drivers. I can see why some folks never moved to the newer audio. Kind of Blue sounded like the music was lit by candles. Some what muddy, till I talked him into putting the speakers up on my Blocks, but after that, and the promise I would do no more tweaking, the room somehow came to life, as if someone rolled back time. I got their message loud and clear, and although my audiophile/engineer ears could have picked this sound to pieces, they graciously took me back to a gentle place in music history. Not only the recording, but me as a younger listener sitting in rooms with the tapes rolling and people chilling as if nothing else in the world was going on. No talking, just the tapping of toes and the occasional person heading out to fill up their drink.

I came home with that, almost teary eyed feeling, and believe I am ready to explore with the respect this recording deserves.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Ok, I'm ready to dive in on at least a basic level. First thing noticed just before the music started, the recorded floor filled the room and than some. I could feel and hear the recorded space with my first setup is maybe 25 wide and 20 deep with an upper halo pretty even at about 12 feet high. I waited for the crash to kick in, knowing it fills the space. As it did the halo rolled out and covered the entire stage with an even push in all directions. Because of this, I decided to let the recording play through without any adjustments. I'll probably give it some time then go after some of the tone I heard with the R2R setting. I know their setting may have not been the most accurate but that lush wooly flavor was fun enough for me to want to recreate here for the heck of it. Just a thought that may be soon forgotten. Here's another thought. If your stage is going mostly side to side and not the same distance front to back, you may want to try this sometime because there is all this motion going on with the instruments and sounds you might miss out on. One thing I have noticed about these early recordings mono and stereo is the size of the recorded space itself. People talk about the instruments being real size? I would have to disagree (maybe that's too harsh), if you listen and know the microphones, you can hear that the size of these instruments are married to those mike patterns and size of the rooms. How can I describe this without sounded too pro? Not sure I can, except to say this recording is as much the equipment used (including that room) as the instruments themselves. Listen for the immediate attack, but also that instant that follows. This will help you decide if your system is too dampened or not. Well I should say "a matter of taste" but me being an acoustic guy, I love the sound of halo follow through, on the acoustic end and the equipment.

So let's take a look

Go to 30th St Studio and get an idea for the space. If your bored enough also go to http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t273-recording-the-michael-green-way and take a peek at how I setup rooms. You'll see a lot in common between my setups and the early jazz guys. Big space and feel. BTW this recording was released 16 days after my birth date August 17, 1959.

So while your listening, take a look at them playing in the studio, and think, if I were to get a tape measure out right now, how close would I get to that room? I'm I hearing empty space between the instruments or live air from the mike patterns? These recordings with this particular group of friends in these studios are huge, and if your hearing mostly side to side that is only 10 to 15 feet wide, imagine how much more there is?

For this reason my headphone listening is now taking a backseat. There's just no way I'm going to get this kind of space out of the phones. I might go back to see if I can use them as a spot check, but the soundstage is continuing to grow as I move into my 3rd pass of the recording. This might also mean the Vinyl might end up being on the chopping block as well.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Ron wrote,

"Geoff:

That is intriguing about your observation of those mechanical sounds as being perhaps the master recording. Can you reply with the time(s) in the recording at which these sounds occur? I would love to compare notes and also try to listen for them! Good job!"

Actually I am not sure the sounds I referred to were on the track in question as I was writing some of my comments while listening to other tracks. What I was intending to CONVEY by the comment about the low level whirring and mechanical noises was the DETAIL cassette tape provides, I.e.. MORE than CD. I also was intending to illustrate that certain TYPES of sounds, WHIRRING, mechanical, whooshing, popping, scraping, RUBBING as in a hair bow on violin gut strings, and other subtle sounds seem to get HOMOGENIZED and smoothed over somehow in CDs. One particular and unusual sound that CD doesn't do well is the sound of a rock skipping over hard ice, that weird, unusual and unmistakable whirring and resonating sound. Other examples of what I'm referring to everyone can relate to are APPLAUSE and the sound of RAIN hitting the ground or street. Those sounds just don't sound right on CD, they are not believable. They sound SYNTHETIC and uninteresting, not fully developed or HARMONICALLY CORRECT. CD doesn't do them justice. Digital applause sound like real human skin clapping together and rain doesn't have that certain LIQUID sound. Or the AIR. Those sounds are not harsh or piercing in nature, and you know them when you hear them, like the whirring and mechanical sounds. Rubbing a finger around the rim of a wet glass.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Is the star of this album, for me. I love the whole thing, just like everybody else. And, any criticism on my part really takes a stretch, but I am an audiophile so I'll get right to it.

I don't like the way Davis messed around with Evans' piano on the tracks that Evans didn't write. There, I said it. lol

Thanks! for sharing your experiences - MG, GK & Catch22.

Ok, a day of repeat burn-in. The Cd at this point is giving a much larger view vs yesterday. The over all has grown about 5 feet in each direction with the back to front now equaling the side to side (a sign of getting close). The entire space as compared to yesterday is more golden maybe amber in timbre now. The mids of the piano have really come to life and the playfulness between him and the rest of the guys is starting to shine (masterful). You can see and feel the groove the guys are having with each other.

Halos

With the front to back matching the side to side, I can hear the halos over lap and intermingle even though they have their own statement. You can hear as the dynamics increase the overflow from the live room feeding into the mics. Once in a while there will be a dynamic that goes way out there touching what I would say is the right wall as you look at the guys straight on. It's an echo that cuts way out there and hits a surface maybe 30 feet off to the right. The left hasn't done this yet, but I can hear it's wanting to. Don't know but my guess is they were closer to the right wall than left. Don't quote me it's just what I'm seeing so far.

You can also hear acoustical barriers placed around the room. For example: Listen again to the piano, and you can hear the mid keys to just shy of upper end ride on top of the lower keys (the bottom washing sound) as they roll out across the rooms floor, and then you hear it hit something. This is something really cool as you can hear the floor in the space interacting with the instruments. Sounds like a round echo (pressure) off the floor into the mic. Also if interested, listen to the pitch change slightly as the mic picks up the direct sound and then follows with the room being just a hair out of pitch with the fundamentals. You can hear this really well with the sax and Miles.

I'm going to let this settle in a tiny bit more then make my first tuning change, so you guys can get a taste for what we do with tuning, if interested in trying it yourselves.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

OK, got 3 systems going on Miles now. Good thing I live on 2 floors lol. Of course all 3 systems sound different, but this will give an idea of what I do.

I want to show you guys a couple of things if I can. I don't mean to be teachy or even preachy, so if you are set in your ways please let the others read on.

A lot of times you hear people say "better" or "improved", and they give some audiophile terms and move on, but if I may let me share some things in real time that might be of some help as you listen and make adjustments to your system. Of course first and formost the more open your system is the more you are going to hear, so if you would like to know how to open up things we can start a thread that is all yours here or on TuneLand.

While the other two systems are burning in, system two started to already do some of the stuff system one is doing so this allows me to do some comparing and tweaking. Earlier I talked about the wide splash of the cymbal filling the stage and some of the other recorded room sounds. Since I do have 3 systems to toy with I thought I would take some tweaks that we have been talking about and share the results. I'm going to leave out brand names cause we don't want to go down that path, at least I don't, but let me say this. The products are ones recently talked about on here.

The very first thing I want to share is the importance of space. Again earlier as I was listening the system used has not been touched for a couple of weeks besides puting on different music. The cables had not been cleaned for sometime and the cable connections are minimal, to not cause blockage. I removed the cable from the back of the amp, did a fast simple clean and put them back in. Turned the music on and if I wasn't paying attention would have said all the way around things improved. Cleaner, faster and all the other good terms (I'll spare you) but when I got to the crash of the cymbal, the float of air that had before moved across the stage and filled the room was gone. Wait a minute! Listening more critically, these aren't improvements. My CD now sounds brittle, bright and harsh. Someone or something put a choke hold on the upper harmonics. In a smaller soundstage I probably would not have noticed all that came up missing as a result, but here it is staring me in the ears. A quick fix, sure it's different but when paying attention, I've been robbed.

I go back out and listen to the 2 systems not cleaned and there's the air on system two and system 3 we'll see. I decided to play system one as I wrote and did other things and it's like someone has put a pin in my ear everytime, Miles especially, plays. What did you guys do to my pretty system? I thought cleaning made things "better". So I go back and look at some of the system setups reviewers have used in testing stuff. I look at the system, read the review and get my first peek into the size of their stages. I'm going to let these clean cables burnin for some time, and then replace them with an uncleaned set, later.

In the meantime system 2 is my temp reference.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I've been working around the place (yes I stay up late) and couldn't bare the cable cleaning any longer so I very carefully put in some that had been sitting around else where. Within an hour things began to take shape again. Now I can play. While listening through the day my mind started thinking a 4 point transfer instead of a 3. Tunees know what I'm saying, but to break it down, both my amp and CDP are setup with LTR Blocks underneath and then on a Brazilian Pine Platform underneath. The Equipment Platform is 36"x23"x7". This configuration is then sitting on Low Tone Redwood risers which then sit on a 3" high floating floor, made of a mixture of voiced pine, Brazilian pine, redwood and birch music ply. I should also mention that the two upstairs room are of course built with typical US floor joisting and the downstairs is tile flooring (at the moment). The CDP is next to the amp and both are currently on as I said LTR Blocks. I have a range of voiced blocks so that I can change timbre, size and attack at will. My setup was 2 blocks in the back and one in front on both the amp and CDP, but with that cable cleaning also came an awareness of a tonal move I wanted to play with. So now that the more settled cables are back in I made my move. From my sound closet I grabbed 4 super light weight blocks, and went to a 4 and 4 setup, which has the transfer now going down from each corner and on the 2 front corners a lighter less dense block. Right from the get go the splashes of the halos took over, and the feeling of a much larger room is now at play. The mid-range came out more and highs are extremely relaxed. The bonus though is the new front to back of the piano. Hello, Mr. Piano! My keys were thick before but now I can see an actual size that goes front to back and hear more of the sound board play. Sorry, I've moved away from So What, but can't help myself. I think I'm going to let this break in for a while, just like it is. Man that snare.

Good choice Ron!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael wrote,

"The very first thing I want to share is the importance of space. Again earlier as I was listening the system used has not been touched for a couple of weeks besides puting on different music. The cables had not been cleaned for sometime and the cable connections are minimal, to not cause blockage. I removed the cable from the back of the amp, did a fast simple clean and put them back in. Turned the music on and if I wasn't paying attention would have said all the way around things improved. Cleaner, faster and all the other good terms (I'll spare you) but when I got to the crash of the cymbal, the float of air that had before moved across the stage and filled the room was gone. Wait a minute! Listening more critically, these aren't improvements. My CD now sounds brittle, bright and harsh. Someone or something put a choke hold on the upper harmonics. In a smaller soundstage I probably would not have noticed all that came up missing as a result, but here it is staring me in the ears. A quick fix, sure it's different but when paying attention, I've been robbed."

Far be it from me to criticize someone else's test protocols, but it seems like a rather BIG MISTAKE to remove the connectors and clean the connections just before a test. I'm pretty sure most audiophiles have learned not to touch ANY connections or unplug them and 0lug them back in. Rule No. 1 is don't get the Heebie Jeebies just before a big test.Once you disturb the electo-mechanical interface you damage the connection. It takes time to heal. I think it makes more sense to have done your homework far in advance rather than drag us though this exercise in Audio Nervosa. Why anyone would take a chance and run around trying something like cleaning connections just before a public test is well, just plain odd. Remember the Boy Scout's motto. I move we get someone to write The Complete Handbook of Good Audio Housekeeping.

People love chopping wood. In this activity one immediately sees results. - A. Einstein

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Michael wrote,

"Since I do have 3 systems to toy with I thought I would take some tweaks that we have been talking about and share the results. I'm going to leave out brand names cause we don't want to go down that path, at least I don't, but let me say this. The products are ones recently talked about on here."

I for one am on the edge of my seat. I can hardly wait to hear the results. Gee, I wonder what the results will be? Lol. Why all the mystery? People get reviews both good and bad all the time. Tweak manufacturers are adults and can take criticism if that's what's coming. Do you really think you are the Arbiter of Sound? Lol. Why mention it at all if you're not going to tell us the products? Besides, it didn't stop you from mentioning having played with May's products and my products even though that turned out to be a lie if memory serves. When you say "we don't want to go down that path" pray tell, what on Earth are you even talking about? Finally, I would not put much stock in someone's results if they unplugged the cables to clean them just prior to the test. As you said yourself, the results sucked.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Hey Geoffy,

Shall we bring it up one more time that you're the one who can't make a simple comparison in a simple scientific experiment...

Having messed around quite a bit playing with cables, the first thing that I always notice when breaking a connection to either clean or swap out cables is how the stage constricts and the bass becomes much less well defined. This has occured in every instance. The time it takes for the cables to resettle is quite short...an hour or so if I'm simply reinstalling the same cables. But, there is an immediate impact on the system focus that can last several additional hours.

This occurs when powering down gear as well and is most obvious if you tend to leave your gear on all the time. For whatever reason, I don't find that valve gear suffers to the same degree and resettles much faster than solid state. I can only speculate that it has to do with the higher temperatures that tube gear produces.

I truly love referencing!

So much happens when we put on a piece of music and begin to share our experiences. One of the things that happens is we come up with methods based on our applications. Our own lists of do's and don'ts. A lot of times I'm asked "do you really keep one piece of music on for so long"? Absolutely! Not only has it stayed a learning curve for many years, but it also allows me to see into a recording deeper and from different angles. It's like your on your own journey and discovering things that maybe are unique to your personal experience, a bond with that recording. I sometimes feel sorry for reviewers because they are manytimes put on the spot to make judgements on products that may have not had the proper settling time.

This thread is already becoming an interesting one for me and I'm sure others as they read. Not only can you follow my results (and the real time results of others), but you also get to read peoples reactions to those results.

OK, back in for another listen, but before I do system one has not changed volume connections or any other tweak since the block change.

Oh, I should make one more comment for those reading on, the cleaned cable has been put into my burnin station and playing since I removed it from system one.

Be right back

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

You have to love this hobby!

I think Geoff mentioned "heebie jeebies" and "Audio Nervosa". All I can say to that is, if that's his hobby it certainly is a different one than mine. I have been referencing music for all my life and it has never, not for one day been a bad experience. A lot of learning experiences as listening presents it's challenges as you walk in and out of different situations, but the thought that "I can be involved, I can make a change" is liberating.

back to listening results

Here's something you need to understand about the hobby, your system never stops settling. It doesn't get to a place then stops. Your system changes, you change and your conditions change. You can either roll with this or expect a lot of things happening that you can't explain. If you don't experience this, I'm not sure you are in the same hobby. I love the changes, and I also love following them into where they are going.

Most of the time when I make notes of changes on my systems or others, there's something that happens that I call the "breakin swing" or swings. It goes like this. You make the change and the system is in shock, kinda like what Catch22 refered to above, then that first level of settling hits and it sounds like the system has stablized, but let's take a step further and explain what is happening.

Everything physical works off of a fairly simple system of forces. You can call it whatever you like act & react, plus & minis, up & down, whatever floats your boat. Vibratory (oscillative) systems work on a pendulum basis and schedule. Without going too far into this on this post, let me tell you how this works in music and mechanics. You have two parts to your system, the fundamentals and the harmonic structures. When a fundamental happens (change or frequency) there's a force that takes place. At first it's an immediate action (force) followed by the immediate re-action (the opposite response force) and then followed by a scheduled system called harmonics. The harmonics are a system of re-action plus settled action as the harmonics interact. It's kinda like watching a bomb hit with the different waves and types that follow. This system takes place all the time and never stops because we and everything on the planet are in motion. When the audio pendulum is put into motion (the audio pathway) there is that force (change), immediate re-action and then as time goes on the system settles into a conduit pathway that either settles in pitch or out of pitch. Pitch is not an automatic result. Your system will also go through pitch "swings" as it settles. Action, re-action, first harmonic, re-action, second harmonic, re-action, third and so on. This is one of the reasons you make a change hear the immediate, and a few minutes later hear it change, couple hours more change, and a day later even more, and again on it goes until the force meets it's transformation into dissipation or amplification. Because the audio signal itself is traveling through an analog mechanical conduit the change (action/force) goes on forever. As the settling matures it developes an audio pathway that becomes stronger as the pendulum settles into it's schedule and developes the support system (harmonics). So if you can picture this firm foundation being laid and the longer time goes on the less friction allowing the action/re-action (pendulum) swing to become more and more stable. Again remember this is "change" not good or bad, but change.

You setup your new system and love it, and in time begin hearing something that bugs you. At that point you can either live with it, or "change" the fundamentals & Harmonics pathway by adjusting. That adjustment can be changing to another component, or whole system, or room, or a thousand of other events, but the one thing you won't change is the physics of action & re-action. That breakin swing is going to take place no matter what system you have, what music you play or what frame of mind you happen to use as your belief system. The world doesn't stop spinning and neither does settling.

When tweaking, tuning, dampening, plug & play, isolation, whatever it is you choose to call your method, the fundamental forces are going to be a part of your listening. Sometimes your going to listen and something won't sound right and other times you swear the best you have ever heard it. That's what makes this hobby fun and if you learn how to make these adjustments when you desire change and learn how to better guide that pathway to success for any given recording you will become the master of your system and will also give yourself "choice".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Michael wrote,

"Here's something you need to understand about the hobby, your system never stops settling. It doesn't get to a place then stops. Your system changes, you change and your conditions change. You can either roll with this or expect a lot of things happening that you can't explain. If you don't experience this, I'm not sure you are in the same hobby. I love the changes, and I also love following them into where they are going."

I actually agree with your statement that the system is always changing. Unfortunately for your argument it's not really for the reasons you think. At least not entirely. It's not really that the system never settles in, it's that there are SO MANY things that influence the sound OUTSIDE THE CONTEXT OF THE SYSTEM ITSELF that it's virtually impossible to control all of the VARIABLES. Im referring to things that do not affect house AC, the cabling, the wiring, the acoustic waves or the components, none of those things. Even when you think you're totally on top of things. Thus it's quite possible for folks to JUMP to the conclusion that THE SYSTEM HASNT FINISHED SETTLING IN or THE CONTACTS NEED TO BE CLEANED or the THE ROOM NEEDS TO BE TUNED or cartridge needs to be realigned or a variety of other Audio Nervosa type responses to frustration with the sound and the system. So the issue with the sound is often but not always NOT EVEN AN AUDIO SYSTEM ISSUE. See, THAT'S THE BIG SECRET! THATS THE THING THAT DRIVES AUDIOPHILES TO TRY FOR 40 YEARS TO REACH THE PROMISED LAND BUT INSTEAD WIND UP ON A BED OF NAILS OR IN A FOOL'S PARADISE. They cannot reach Audio Nirvana because they don't know what's causing the sound to BE SO UNSATISFACTORY, SO UNINSPIRING. These external non system influences that CHANGE AND MULTIPLY AND SUBTRACT are the very things that make audiophiles suspect or be to be convinced that the component is not broken in yet, the hideously expensive Capacitors haven't broken in yet, even after 500.hiours. Side note on these hideously long break in times: do these people actually sit there for 500 hours and do nothing else to their systems? Of course not. Not to mention the external influencyes I'm talking about here. It would be extraordinary If ANYONE CAN BE ABSOLUTELY SURE WHAT'S CAUSING THE SOUND TO CHANGE in many of these long break in times, like the C-37 lacquer to name one, or cable break in or fuse break in. OR CAUSING THE SOUND TO CHANGE FROM DAY TO DAY, WITHOUT HAVING MADE ANY CHANGES TO THE SYSTEM ANYWHERE, NOT IN THE CABLING OR COMPONENTS OR SPEAKERS OR HOUSE AC. As we shall see, the sound produced by system is the same, it's your hearing that changes. It's your perception of the sound that changes. The excellent full and complete sound is in the room the whole time! But you experience it as being inferior, not complete, not like the real thing. But the really good sound is in the room the whole time, you just can't hear it.

Now, of course I realize that what I'm referring to in this post - THE EXTERNAL INFLUENCES OR FORCES -TO USE MICHAEL'S WORD - is a difficult concept to wrap one's head around. It's from out in left field. Lol We have seen already here on these fora how stubborn and intrenched we are sometimes with respect to our thinking when it comes to audio and in particular this very subject of break in and WHEN DO YOU KNOW WHEN A THING IS COMPLETELY BROKEN IN? Or can you? But jumping to the conclusion that a thing, a capacitor, a cable, a component, whatever, NEVER BREAKS IN is not the answer. It's one of those logical fallacies, you know, a pre-conceived notion, a self-fulfilling prophesy, a foregone conclusion, along those lines. What follows is a brief introduction to some of the EXTERNAL NON-SYSTEM INFLUENCES THAT AFFECT THE SOUND. the better you can control the internal variables of the system the better off you will be, but when you can control,the external variables that's when REAL PROGRESS CAN BE MADE, THAT IS THE SHINING PATH TO THE TRUTH. There are a number of revolutions occurring in the audio industry but the biggest revolution of them all is the one in your mind.

So, without further ado, here is the OUTLINE FOR MY INTRODUCTION TO EXTERNAL FORCES THAT AFFECT THE SOUND. NOTICE, DEAR READERS, I WILL NOT BE ADDRESSING SOME MORE COMMON OR MORE PERHAPS BETTER UNDERSTOOD EXTERNAL VARIABLES SUCH AS CLIMATE, RFI, TIME OF DAY, TEMPERATURE, HUMIDITY, THINGS OF THAT NATURE, EXTERNAL FACTORS THAT AFFECT THE SYSTEM SOME WAY OR ANOTHER - AC power, acoustic waves in the room, etc,

This preliminary outline will be filled in during the day in between my running around so please check back in regularly for updates.

1. Information fields and how they turn grown men into neurotics

2. What is an INFORMATION FIELD And why is it bad for you?

In MY context an INFORMATION FIELD is the same thing as a Morphic Field, which in very broad terms is defined in this paragraph,

"Morphic resonance is a process whereby self-organising systems inherit a memory from previous similar systems. In its most general formulation, morphic resonance means that the so-called laws of nature are more like habits. The hypothesis of morphic resonance also leads to a radically new interpretation of memory storage in the brain and of biological inheritance. Memory need not be stored in material traces inside brains, which are more like TV receivers than video recorders, tuning into influences from the past. And biological inheritance need not all be coded in the genes, or in epigenetic modifications of the genes; much of it depends on morphic resonance from previous members of the species. Thus each individual inherits a collective memory from past members of the species, and also contributes to the collective memory, affecting other members of the species in the future."

Morphic fields underlie the organization of proteins, cells, crystals, plants, animals, brains, and minds. They help to explain habits, memories, instincts, telepathy, and the sense of direction. They have an inherent memory and imply that many of the so-called laws of nature are more like habits."

Instead, he (Sheldrake) proposes that there are "fields" (energy fields or, more broadly, fields of some type of force) which he calls "morphogenetic fields" -- "form-generating" or "form-producing" fields -- which act to organize the biological material at all levels into their characteristic forms, and that these fields give rise to all the different families of the biological world. In fact, going beyond this, he also proposes that morphogenetic fields act upon and organize inorganic matter. However, in the field of biology, he points to evidence discovered by genetic researchers which suggests that the genes between different species differ much less radically than expected, suggesting the possibility that something else might be responsible for the divergence of widely different species with nearly-identical genes."

Now, I know what you're thinking, "what in bloody hell does that have to do with audio?"

3. Can you measure information fields?

Morphic fields/information fields cannot be measured, at least now according to how we measure electromagnetic waves, electric fields, magnetic fields. Now, having said that we can INDIRECTLY see the effects of these Morphic/Information fields on the sound and picture quality if we perform careful tests. One thing that distinguishes information fields from other types of fields is that they DO NOT OBEY THE INVERSE SQUARE LAW. Information fields' intensity is a function of how many things there are in the universe that are producing the field and the intensity of the field doesn't diminish with distance.

Electromagnetic fields are abstract and invisible, detectable only by their ability to interact with particular arrangements of matter, like ionized gases or magnetically polarized metals. Similarly, morphic fields, which are equally abstract and invisible, are detectable only by their ability to resonate with particular arrangements of matter under particular circumstances, like those of embryonic development or electrochemical activity in the brain.

Sheldrake thus places his views on a firmly realist ground: Morphic fields exist objectively in nature as part of it, next to other objective parts of nature like atoms and fields of other types. In other works, Sheldrake also suggests that mind itself is a kind of field centered in the brain but extending beyond the brain, much like the electromagnetic field of a magnet is centered in the magnet but extends beyond it. Here again, Sheldrake’s metaphors seem to be underpinned by a realist assumption: Minds are objective and causally-effective fields just like electromagnetic fields. As such, mind-fields are a part of nature, but not the very medium of all reality, as idealism entails.

4. Can you feel information fields?

5. What's are some examples of an Information Field? Almost everything if not everything in the Universe has a Morphic Field associated with it. The strength of the Morphic Field is proportional to the NUMBER OF THINGS THAT ARE PRODUCING THE FIELD. For example, electrons everywhere are identical so they would produce a VERY STRONG Morphic Field. Fortunately electrons do not fall into the category of things we need to be worried about. However, anything related to audio and visual media including books, VCR tapes, magazines, newspapers, CDs do fall into that category. The television, cell phone and radio and iPad also fall into that category. As do photos, pictures, even stamps, bank receipts and OMG telephone books!

6. What's the connection between an information field and the sound. How does it change the sound. If it changes the sound why can't it be measured? What is it about a thing that produces a BAD Morphic Field?

Let's take an example that PWB electronics uses frequently. That's the innocuous looking COMPACT DIGITAL AUDIO DISC logo that appears on almost every CD and every CD TRAY 2 per tray. Those compact disc logos are very bad for the sound because there are so many of them in the world, more and more even the ones just sitting around are bad. These compact disc logos produce a very powerful Morphic Field because there are SO many of them and because of the nature of the objects they are placed on - media files. The reason media is such an ugly word in the world of Morphic resonance is because when the human mind "picks up on" that fiield - like a radio transceiver - the mind interprets the COMPACT DIGITAL AUDIO DISC logo as a THREAT. This all subconscious or mostly subconscious. It all part and parcel of what I refer to as MIND MATTER INTERACTION. WE ARE SUBCONSCIOUSLY INTERACTING WITH OUR ENVIRONMENT. And that environment actually extends beyond the boundaries of the home. It actually extends to the entire world and actually to the entire universe since as I mentioned the strength of the Morphic Fields do not diminish by distance.

Another example I wish to discuss for a second is the ubiquitous BARCODE that is stamped on everything from the CD jewel box paperwork to CDs to magazines to food packaging to books to beer bottles. All barcodes are unique to the particular item on which they're found but the issue for audiophiles is that for any given object or thing you can think of there are perhaps what millions of not billions or many billions in the world. All have the same identifying BARCODE. So, without even getting into which barcodes are the worst for audio it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there are a goddamn lot of them that ARE bad. So how do we deal with BARCODES? Well, there are a number of ways to deal with them. One is to destroy them remove them with a razor or Dremel tool. THEREBY BREAKING THE LINK TO THE REST OF THE MORPHIC FIELD. This will require a certain amount of patience as there are most likely a lot more barcodes floating around the house than you thought. Lol. We also treat barcodes. More on this later.

7. Audio Products that affect information fields.

Words are flowing out
Like endless rain into a paper cup
They slither wildly as they slip away
Across the universe

Thoughts meander like a restless wind
Inside a letter box
They tumble blindly as they make their way
Across the universe

Ok, Quick interrupt is complete. Back to scheduled programming.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We Do Artificial Atoms Right

Very nice over-view and information, here, Geoff. Thanks! for sharing.

I did a late night listening to system 1, but then got distracted by some things I needed to do for a different time zone, so I didn't get to fill people in, so I will do both today's and earlier together.

When sitting down for the late night listen, I was greeted with a stage that was quite remarkable. The energy of the recording had moved completely around me. This is what I was waiting for. I could get up from my chair and walk around with the stage still being intact untill I put my ear right up to the speaker. This is when I know a system is starting to balance itself with the recorded code. It's amazing to hear a system, recording and room become one. My session just moments ago was even more of a gel. The whole system has united. For myself when a recording gets to this level the fun begins.

I'm going to by-pass geoff's comments, at least for the moment, cause this is for me about personal listening and how to reach the highest levels of performance, and what you can do once inside of that level. The one comment though before moving on, is the peaceful feeling of experiencing all things coming into tune. Quite often when reaching this level I catch myself tip-toeing around my place as if there was somekind of worship being performed. The soundwaves and energy have developed into a state of harmony. My system at this point can maybe best be described as a full body headphone. Instead of hearing through my ears alone my entire being is part of the intake. Anything remotely audiophile-ish is pretty much gone. Speakers and room have vanished, and I can't hear any system. Even standing outside the room looking in you can see the stage, and as Harold said a few months ago, it's like hearing a soundstage that is far outside the room.

Within a short time now, maybe even now, I will be able to go in and make subtle tunes and be able to explore different parts of the recording if I'm careful. This is what I mean by puting the fundamental forces to work. When the energy becomes for lack of better words "one", there's a level of transparancy that transends the mere frontal stage, and ear only involvement. There is no real sweet spot that limits me at this point, or maybe I should say the entire room has become the sweet spot.

Going to go in, be right back.

back now

I wanted to be careful with my use of words concerning the sweet spot, so I went from my writing room and went through my open area to system 1. The open area is every bit as much of the sound as the the listening room. As I walk closer to the door I can see and hear the stage around the corner. You can tell things are at standup level in the listening room, and can even hear that studio floor I described earlier. I get to right outside the door and can feel I am entering the recorded space. I walk past the speaker and there is no dip into the speaker, all stage. Had to kneel down a foot or so to get the direct sound of the Min Mod. I take a couple of steps to my chair and even with my head side ways with the plane of the speakers I have no disembodiment of the stage, hang on. Yep (stuck my head back in) no breakup of the stage at all. I'm stepping into a live room and can hear and feel the space around me. The speakers and the room have become one and the same.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Heading out for a R2R session, and I'm told a surprise.

Will report back in a few.

BTW Geoff. I enjoyed the read! I didn't read it before cause I didn't want to plant anything in the brain before the session. But doing so now is a nice additive to the topic. This to, as Costin and I mentioned before are also a part of the listening ritual, and everyone does it no matter if they think they are or not.

A variable Tune!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green wrote:

Heading out for a R2R session, and I'm told a surprise.

Will report back in a few.

BTW Geoff. I enjoyed the read! I didn't read it before cause I didn't want to plant anything in the brain before the session. But doing so now is a nice additive to the topic. This to, as Costin and I mentioned before are also a part of the listening ritual, and everyone does it no matter if they think they are or not.

A variable Tune!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

If it pleases you and Costin to believe so, by all means, knock yourselves out.

"Because it's what I choose to believe." - Dr. Elizabeth Shaw, when asked why she thought the aliens were inviting them for a visit.

;-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I might have exceeded the capacity of the buffers on the long post on information fields because the stupid system will not let me edit any longer. Lol

So, here are the final two sections of the outline of the article filled out.

4. Can you feel information fields?

You cannot feel them but you can see and hear the effects when harmful fields are removed or when beneficial fields are introduced or their strength increased. Since a great number of information fields have always been there we are usually only aware of them when they are removed or attenuated. Actually, we aren't even aware of their presence unless someone points them out! It's the sensory perception of the sound that changes so you can guage the effects of removing links to external information fields by evaluating the sound quality and picture quality of any video system. Generally speaking the effects are perceived as less noise, higher signal to noise ratio and less distortion.

7. Audio Products that address information fields.

These are products that generally speaking attenuate "harmful" fields OR increase "Beneficial" fields. An example of a beneficial field is a message of affirmation written with a red pen.

Only two companies manufacture audio products that address Morphic Fields/Information Fields - Machina Dynamica and PWB Electronics. Examples of such products are Silver Rainbow Foil, the Red X Coordinate Pen, Cream Electret, the Teleportation Tweak and the Clever Little Clock. Yes, I know what you're thinking, if only two companies are making audio products that address information fields that stuff must be pretty advanced, right? Well, yeah.

Next up, how you can experience beneficial information fields free of charge: The Photos in the Freezer Tweak. Now YOU can experience the wonder and awe of information fields in the safety of your home.

Survival of the Fittest and Mind over Matter.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Hi Ron

above & beyond is what we "DO"

As reference threads continue my setups like everyone elses will be talked about more and more, but let me share a couple of things from my point of view as well to maybe paint the picture. BTW people can always go to TuneLand.

brands

If my designer friends in this biz knew I was taking their stuff apart they wouldn't be friends for long. For this reason I keep some of the names on the low. The mid-fi mass market stuff I don't mind mentioning, but those who make their living off of a few pieces a year, not gonna do, past maybe a brand or two here and there.

let me share

Like for example. You guys talking about taking apart and building your own versions of a Revive for me crosses a line of ethics that I can't do as a fellow designer.

On this forum you see me weave in and out of a few topics. Not because I wouldn't talk to you about them in person, but more I wouldn't talk about them on an open public forum. I realize that this opens me up for flaming, but it's a line I have to choose every day.

Saying this, I also don't look at components the same way a consumer does. You (general audiophiles) see a component more as a unit to plug in and play and lets be honest, most a form of furniture as much as function. I don't see the audio chain that way. If you look on Tuneland you will read what I feel the audio pathway is and how it works, and so me saying I use brand X isn't really using brand X if the chassis is gone, transformer removed, cables replaced and the pieces spread out on a tuning board. I walk a balance between super high end sound, and super high end gear. For those who want the gear I tune one way, for those who are listening madmen, it's a totally different MG.

For this thread and on this forum however I'll do as much sharing as I feel comfortable with, but so far on this particular thread if I mentioned what I started with most of you (unless tunee) would be un-impressed, or maybe even embarrassed.

But lets see how it goes, If I start getting flamed or schooled I'll back away, if not I'll probably share more, but it won't be what you expect I promise that.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

What Ron was talking about doing was NOT taking an Acoustic Revive apart and knocking it off. He was talking about building his own from scratch. Geez, besides, there are at least five or ten other manufacturers of Schumann Frequency generators around, most of them sold for health and wellness reasons but also sometimes to audiophiles who might have a problem with the price tag of the Acoustic Revive device, which has always been around 450-600 USD. As Ron already said, how difficult could it be?

You get schooled? No way, dude!

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

Everyone has to live with their own ethics.

I actually gave a long answer here and then thought, if people can't figure out ethics through common sense....well?

I'd rather be dealing with the folowing

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t169p180-hiend001-s-system
_____________________________________________

"Michael, my system has transformed from Ferrari 458 with engine power of 562hp to Bugatti Veyron with engine power of 1,000hp
WOW! WOW! WOW! What a sound

Never hear bass sounds like this rich....... could hear the cello nearing the bottom of its register, pops a few notes that ripple the air with such girth and extension, it's easy to imagine sitting with the audience

Yes.... the impact of the drum beat was explosive and weighty with full thunderous roar....

Started with Speakers and Woofer platforms - the sound volume increased with soundstage deeper, wider and fuller

Then large equipment platform - the imaging of the vocal was solid

At last my platform system is dynamic and juicy"
__________________________________________________

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Busy day but I wanted to share that I was able to listen to the recording on production run cassette (store stock), the R2R and a copy from the R2R to cassette.

It really is remarkable how much better the reels sound over cassette tapes, but I was fairly impressed with the copy from the reel. Even though this is a limited time of listening I would have to say cassettes might have a hard time making their way back, especially if open reel becomes more of an option. Of course this store bought could have been who knows how old or how well it was treated or stored.

I didn't get it from the cassettes but the warmth of the open reel was so good, I want to hear it in one of my rooms. That might be a goal, but for now I'm going to see if I can tune that in on my CD systems. My systems kill his place, but that's not really fair, their going after something different there.

Should be a fun night, or as it looks morning.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green wrote:

Everyone has to live with their own ethics.

I actually gave a long answer here and then thought, if people can't figure out ethics through common sense....well?

I'd rather be dealing with the folowing
_____________________________________________

"Michael, my system has transformed from Ferrari 458 with engine power of 562hp to Bugatti Veyron with engine power of 1,000hp
WOW! WOW! WOW! What a sound

Never hear bass sounds like this rich....... could hear the cello nearing the bottom of its register, pops a few notes that ripple the air with such girth and extension, it's easy to imagine sitting with the audience

Yes.... the impact of the drum beat was explosive and weighty with full thunderous roar....

Started with Speakers and Woofer platforms - the sound volume increased with soundstage deeper, wider and fuller

Then large equipment platform - the imaging of the vocal was solid

At last my platform system is dynamic and juicy"
__________________________________________________

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

That's nice. Did you write those yourself?

I'm surprised you can spell the word ethics, frankly.

Is the juicy an official Tuning Society word?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Michael wrote,

"It really is remarkable how much better the reels sound over cassette tapes, but I was fairly impressed with the copy from the reel. Even though this is a limited time of listening I would have to say cassettes might have a hard time making their way back, especially if open reel becomes more of an option. Of course this store bought could have been who knows how old or how well it was treated or stored.

I didn't get it from the cassettes but the warmth of the open reel was so good, I want to hear it in one of my rooms. That might be a goal, but for now I'm going to see if I can tune that in on my CD systems. My systems kill his place, but that's not really fair, their going after something different there."

All this huffing and puffing isn't fooling me. Just how naive do you think we are? You are just a big fat liar. Once you lie to me once I won't believe anything you say subsequently. Just so we're on the same page. Your opinion of what anything sounds like interests me less and less. You simply have no scruples and your puffed up descriptions have no resemblance to really. You're obviously simply here to market your goods. You should have listened to those guys in Dayton, people just don't want to get up and tune their whole goddamn room after every record. You know, like a bunch of lemurs on crack.

I said it would be fun but I didn't say for who.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica