& allow me to add the wikipedia quote of the day:

Belief....
.......... a psychological state in which an individual holds a conjecture or premise to be true.[1]

Hi Geoff,

Thought provoking manifesto. I love the historical references.

In broad terms, I wonder how the data could be presented to allow hobbyists (or designers) to choose the areas they wish to apply when designing and evolving a system that meets their individual tastes (or clients tastes.)

When I was playing the drums and piano I decided to separate the two in space by just a little bit. I noticed that my wires going from the transformer to the board were running in parallel and very close together. I moved them maybe 1 inch apart giving them their own space. Things opened up nicely, but I wanted yet a little more warmth so I barely loosened the board screw closest to where the wires attached to the board until I could hear the space of each instrument get nice and warm within their own place in the stage. I wanted to make this complete so I dropped a canopy rod about 2" away from where this was going on and the magic was there waiting on me. Body, their own space and real to size.

I'm thinking though of maybe going from the brass rods to the LTR and making the top tuning board go to the platform by means of the wood instead of metal rods. Might have a little balancing act to do but we'll give this a shot as I have had good results with this in the past. I would love to do this with the low profile brass inserts but you have to be very careful that the insert doesn't over power the transfer into the canopy board. For this reason I have usually stuck with different voiced down tuning rods but might want to revisit the threads.

we'll see

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Geoff,

I read the manifesto as an indictment of how the industry currently operates and the products they produce which leads to the never ending struggle to find components that work well together and tuning and tweaks that complement these components.

Maybe I misread it, but you stated "What is required is a synthesis of the best ideas in achieving great sound." and "Everything is on the table, nothing is off the table."

If this was not an indictment of the industry, then I question the assumption and validity of using current state of the art componentry as a fixed accepted baseline and the only issue is determining the best aftermarket tuning and tweaking ideas or products and their correct usage.

Hello Michael,

I was thinking about putting my speakers on wooden platforms. I have access to various woods ranging from pine to oak to maple to exotic stuff, all cured for many years. All come in 450x450x40 mm boards, enough to hold my speakers (well, the length is a close call but I can always place them diagonally).
My problem is I have no way to change the boards as the speakers are heavier than myself. Could you recommend a few woods to try, with a little help from my friends?

geoffkait wrote:

........Why don't high end amp manufacturers use better
Power Cords or better fuses, things of that nature?

It is as if they all got together & made a pact.
Shiny, sparkly, outward aesthetics & branding are what is for sale & what generates sales. "No users serviceable parts inside, warranty invalid if seal broken". It is the pond they refuse to dip their toes in.

"'m trying to limit the Stove Piping to audiophiles"

This should be turned around. Industry stove piping has led to audiophile stove piping.

This is how variable I am. I didn't know what stove piping was till I just looked it up lol.

In a hobby like this we should be doing every thing we can to help all listeners get the sound they want and be able to play as much music as they can.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Hi Costin

If you look here it might give you some ideas http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t71-mga-platforms-racks-and-amp-stands . I need to update that page.

sorry guys with this being off topic

I have enjoyed working with the Brazilian Pine, Northern Redwood combos but any of the wood that is able to be drained of it's moisture by 70% are good ones to look at. I don't like pitchy woods like Maple and some oaks cause they stick close to one note and I like full range. But your pine family or reds or cedars, I think Toledo is playing with a piece of alder. For my taste I like a piece of wood that carries the harmonics really nice. I'm in the lumber yard at least 4 times a week looking through wood to voice. But, here's the thing, you said it is cured. Does that mean dry cured or what has been the conditioning? This will make a big difference, cause if you do go with a pine for example and don't get the moisture out of it, it will sound cloudy. So you need to if you haven't yet get a little up on voicing wood. I bake my wood which is a little different then kiln drying. I don't know where you are but if the humidity there is 25 or over you don't want to try baking. It will be too fast for the wood and will end up sounding weird.

I've tried a few times to help people voice wood long distance but it never really worked out. There are so many steps and if you screw up something like a sanding at the wrong time condition or grit you might as well throw the wood away. I'm pretty picky though.

But the basic steps are find a wood piece that resonates full range then dry the heck out of it (the reason I live in the desert). If it's too fast or too slow you have to know when to rotate it and move it from one condition to the next. Like here I have 4 drying spots, one in the sun, one in the shade, one downstairs and a bake room upstairs. I have fans setup and control the heat and then I have a waiting area so the wood can sit there inbetween the sanding and coats. All the steps can make or break a piece so if your making your own you might screw up the sound a few times before you get it right. But if you get it right your going to love it. Like I have mini monitors here (tiny things) and they play 40 hz and below. That's all from the voicing. My floorstanders can play organ music pretty fair. So if you get the right combo under your speaks you'll really like the results. I think speaker platforms are the next big component, I really do. You can transform your sound with these babies.

I'd share how I do the voicing but then I'd have to get a job and forget that.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

It comes from a factory that exported wood for various instrument makers around the world, including Italy and Japan. The factory went belly-up and one of my friends acquired all remaining stock. We even had no time to go through all the woods, but I'm talking about (roughly) one full container.

"The industry does it out of self interest and self protection. And to a certain extent out of ignorance (the better power cord, better fuse, etc.) ....

Audiophiles do it (develop systems in isolation) out of ignorance and/or lack of curiosity. Am pretty sure they do things like they THINK everyone does it, actually. "

The groupthink mentality originates within the industry based on what they perceive are best design practices and what they think sells. It goes a little deeper than power cords, etc. Hobbyists are then left to deal with the consequences in any way they can.

Geoff,

Any debate can be characterized as a having a backfire effect in the absence of refutable facts. Your non audio example exemplifies this. Once the facts presented themselves, the effect was successfully proven.

Your audio related example is an opinion and could easily be characterized as suffering from the same backfire effect.

I am inclined to believe that pointing out this effect in the midst of a debate is a method primarily used to discredit anything said by the other party.

What happened to the original thesis of this post or did it suffer from a backfire fate on your part.

Geoff,

Actually, the salient point of the backfire event is that people still hold onto their beliefs more strongly even after being presented with the facts.

Carefully re-read my post. The only ones that can determine if a backfire event is occurring would be a third party as they are not biased and look at the facts. Your non audio example showed this as it could be shown that once the facts were in, sceptics still held their beliefs.

Your audio related example relies on your bias and opinion that the sceptics will never weight the facts and data presented to them even though they may have and simply did not agree with the facts presented to them. The only one who can prove this is occurring would be a third party without bias that can weight the merits of the facts. When you factor in an area like quantum mechanics and it's applicability to audio, I would say the facts are a bit murky. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a horse in this race, just pointing out the basic assumptions and logic flaws.

Why do think listening is so important. In many ways this is the unbiased third party.

I think that the Backfire Effect is also related to the source of information.

Sticking to audio, I am o proponent of SS vs. tubes and digital vs. analogue, but I am open minded and would rehash my opinion about tubes - or at least give it a second thought - if (say) Dan d'Agostino or John Curl would say they're good. OTOH, when Michael Fremer states digital is bad it only strengthen my preference because I'm fully aware of Fremer's biases.

Hi Costin

We should take this somewhere else as not to be off topic here, but I want to tell you even if the wood has been cured according to what I think I'm hearing you say, that's only the beginning point. It hasn't been prepped yet, it doesn't sound like it anyway. If the wood sits somewhere for a day or two in higher humidity 25% or above the moisture has gotten back into it and the prepping has to be done over. If you give me the town it is in I can check it for you but I have a feeling it is not ready. Also if it is instrument wood that means it has been picked for particular instruments sound and doesn't mean it will do well as a full range producer. When we tested instrument wood from some of the factories we found them to be pitch specific and couldn't use them. This was also true for the finishes. Keep in mind that reproducing the whole scale is a lot different from each individual instruments signature. We have had speakers before made out of specific instrument wood (violin, cello, drums, piano, double bass, guitar) and they sounded horrible. Lots of glare and pitching problems. I'm not saying thats what you've got I'm just saying that's what happened with us, and I was pretty tight with the factories cause I was their acoustician. Even went to their forest lots and bought my own trees, and had them prepped for me by them. And honestly they didn't sound so good. Made for a nice storyline, but that was about it. So if you got instrument wood more than likely it was harvested with a certain predetermined sound signature in mind. It's probably (don't know) wood for different parts of the instruments all having their own fixed character, like the boards braces and bodies. That said, out of that wood I would recommend finding the wood that has the lowest tone and and lightest weight to start with, that way you'll get the fuller range and that's the key for reproducing. My gutt feeling is that this particular wood might be pitched too high though to start with. And if it's what I think it might be might be pretty touchy if you try to take it down to 4%. Maybe I don't know. Most instrument wood (the bodies) don't like going down that low without cracking. And the body pulp is probably the softest stuff you have. Do you know the type of instruments they were used for?

Not trying to be the bearer of bad news, just giving what I have been through with this before. But doing is half the fun and you guys will have a good time learning about this stuff cause it is pretty cool.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

My post was about a correlation between the source of information and the Backfire Effect.
Whatever you use as a headphone amp or some anecdotal talk about Curl & The SET are irrelevant.
Guess what? At a High-End show I found myself stuck in the toilet without any "dedicated" paper. I had to choose the only poster not printed on glossy paper: one that extolled the sonic benefits of direct heated triodes, which also shaped my opinion about SET amps - they're good in case of dire needs but do not bring any satisfaction.

geoffkait wrote:

SS sucks, is that technical enough for you?

So did Monica Lewinsky, but at least Bill had an explanation!
Or if you just don't get it: no, it's not technical enough for me: try harder!

Geoff,

You position yourself as some sort of intellectual yet when your arguments are pressed you resort to lashing out and I am so smart why can't anyone see that and take your ball and go home.

You done this now twice on this thread. Once for the stove piping proposition and now the backfire.

Regarding bias, you need to work on your reading comprehension.

"Bias is an inclination of temperament or outlook to present or hold a partial perspective, often accompanied by a refusal to even consider the possible merits of alternative points of view."

What didn't you understand about my point or were you too busy playing the I'm so smart card.

I described several free (or at least cheap) tweaks in the thread I started, but I see noone has comments.
I guarantee they work, and I make them public for no financial benefit (well, maybe except the quantum Martini), so why not give them a try?
Now, to prove I'm not interested in any financial gain, here is another easy (and free) tweak for you all: just ask your barber to cut the hair in your ears in a pattern that is complementary to the Monsoon-Fletcher curves: you're going to get a more linear listening and a vastly better soundstage.
Just try it, along with pulling off your nails and replacing them with rainbow foil from May Belt, and I vouch your listening experience will never be the same!

Now ya done it Costin and got May involved .... Slap me every once in a while if I start snoring, will ya.

... was it Steinberg or Sherwin or ...... no no no wait ... I'll get it ........

Listening is an interesting mind changer. Kinda odd how it works, but it's one of those things I've noticed where people reach a certain level of listening and knowledge, and they plateau or they are true music explorers. Doesn't matter if they are a reviewer, designer, engineer or hobbyist. And depending on how strong their ego is and how limited their actual exposure is they'll stay right there defending that position for ever, or until they experience another level, and then their personal bar is raised and they reach that next level. Everytime they reach a level they look back at all the folks that haven't gotten there yet and usually want to see the newcomer rise to their level. That's natural I would think, but as a listening/designer there's that thing in me anyway that doesn't want to stop learning. This is probably why my systems may look more like a science projects than high end audio systems to some. I'm not going to lie, I look at a system that is still in a chassis and see what it is not doing, heavy multiple driver speakers and see the same thing, room conditions and a ton of other stuff and I pretty much know what is or isn't going on.

You know it's not so much that those who have done a little more want to come across as putting down the path of someone else but we really have been there, and for me anyway I try to find the words to not come off wrong but I do think with this being such an ego driven thing it's tricky. Again I do think this is normal, there's no malice there. It's a step further and some can go there and find the same things or not, or even say they don't believe until they are ready to take a next step. No harm done really. It's just an ego, and learning gets us past egos I believe. But for me it's those who stay at that plateau and try to bring people down from climbing the rest of that mountain that get under my skin. And it doesn't get under my skin for me, but it gets under my skin because I know there are so many out there that just want great sound, and there are many people claiming to have something that they don't. It's not that hard to see when we start talking about listening.

for myself

It doesn't matter what music someone says they have, or what they have done with a reviewer or designer, or when they say what they have spent or claim the level they are at. For me, it comes down to when they start talking about that picture of music in their room. They can blow all the smoke they want but until you start referencing it means ditty. I'm use to listeners describing what they are hearing and they're not shy about where they want to go and where they are now. This is what I look for and it tells me how far someone has come and how far they might go as a listener and as a person. If they can't talk about a piece of music they are taking apart I wouldn't buy "jack" from them, that goes for products or advice or listening to their theories. If someone is on a forum and doesn't have a place where they are describing their sound, they get a zero from me in the credibility department, I don't care who they are or claim to be. When I see someone run from talking about their stage that tells me they have problems with their system. One of the easiest things in the world to describe is a soundstage, and when I see someone not able to do that or spin off on a technical issue or start talking about source material and direct to disc and all that stuff that tells me they have got a soundstage problem. Cause it's not hard to describe what you are sitting there hearing. That's what this hobby is, and what a listener does in his or her mind every day. Don't be fooled by spins, if you see a talker here on this forum or any other and they are not talking about that thing we do, their not really doing it. Their talking about it but their not doing it, cause when you do listen to that soundstage it is something that gets planted in your mind and stays. You go do other things and wonder about that stage or that sound, or that change or that perfection, but be sure if your listening your able to describe it.

It comes in different levels and I promise you the ones who run from the event of listening are the ones not spending their days doing it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Just shows your ability to talk about technical matters!

But, does anyone have any Gray Poupon?

Geoff,

You obviously can't handle a complex debate...I will dumb it down and keep it simple in the future.

Is anything from you original other than your snide remarks?

Your cut and paste, hit and run approach sorely lacks originality. Well since a large portion of your products are re-inventions, I guess this makes sense.

Geoffs favorite sites :

Skepdic.com
Debunkingskeptics.com
Wiki.com

Any others?

Not my thread, pal. What was the intent of your "pearls of wisdom?"

I'll leave it up to the readers.

BTW you may want to review the thread and see who has run out of ammo.

The king of snark offended by snark ... That's rich.
( see how I twisted part of your statement to my advantage. Look familiar?)

Now let's rewind to stove piping as this discussion has legs on how the entire industry needs to change.

Does it ever, and yet as all can see it has this way of stalling out. This might be the reason why.

You would think that this industry would be full of listening centers, but after we built ours we were surprised to find that this was not the case. Most of the designers were working out of their homes as more of a garage/factory type setting, or test rooms that really weren't test rooms. The testing was surprisingly low tech in most cases and never once (besides our place) did I see a designer testing at every point of the audio chain to hear how the mechanical conduits reacted to materials. This to me was a major deal breaker. If someone is building audio equipment of any type or even test equipment or really anything that passes a signal I would have thought there would have been testing on that path that the signal is traveling on. This to me is the most fundamental step that all of us as designers should be doing. How can you make a valid comment without having a start to finish testing pond?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

After reading the threads that at one time looked like they had a direction I needed to bump this thread again.

There is a huge, and I mean huge, difference between a listener and an audiophile spin doctor.

I have to ask, how long has this industry been in the spinning business instead of the listening business? Everytime someone starts to talk about the listening part (what the hobby is supposed to be) these spins come bleeding out of the walls and start filling the room like a B SciFi movie with talk that is never going to help a soul. It's like listening to people talk about things because they have no answers to why they are not getting good sound instead of describing the great sound they have and how they got there, and most of all sharing the parts and pieces of the soundstage that got them there. These threads turn freakishly weird as opposed to a group of guys saying "hey did you hear that".

Hopefully someday listeners will visit and start talking about the hobby of music. Several times now I have seen people come up and make a bold challenge, and as soon as the answer "is" given they either disappear or go into a spin. For those reading this for the first time, I must give my point of reference again http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . A forum about listening and the pathes to get there. Something that is so different than here, but is what should be here.

Come on people, join the hobby of listening. Stereophile is where this began, or at least a big part of it. We should have these pages hopping about our experiences and systems, and most of all the music itself.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune