Haven't you read that using anything else than the EXACT kimber cable will make the sound all wonky?......okay all kidding aside, why not? Four feet isn't going to cause any difference in the sound so go for it and use whatever heavy gauge wire you wish to use, the elctrons won't know the difference, personly I would use 14 gauge zip wire properly terminated. Heresy to most around here I bet.

I don't know.....can you?

"Kimber 4TC consists of 8 individual TC conductors (four black, four blue) in a braided design. Kimber's patented Varistrand™ technology incorporates seven specifically selected strand gauges within one conductor made from hyper-pure copper with first-quality surface finishes. The aggregate wire size is equivalent to two #13 AWG conductors. Complementing the advanced metallurgy is 4TC's custom Teflon™ dielectric"

Feel up to doing all that with "common" copper wire? I wouldn't want you to feel like you made your expensive speaker wire "defective" by doing so. Looks like a lot of work.Tell you what, here's a good time to try a SBT. Buy the above wire I suggested and have a friend swap out each set for about 20 trials and  see if you can pick which is which consistantly. Remember it's a BLIND test for you so NO aural or visual clues from your friend who will be switching them out in a random order.  This would be a GREAT opportunity for you show us if the expesive Kimbers do sound different or not from common 14 gauge zip wire. if you can't pick which is which then sell the Kimbers for a nice profit, pocket the money and use the 14 gauge zip wire. Up for it?

3Putt,

Do you have enough short lengths of 4TC to splice together to reach one speaker? If you do, then you'd just need one new length. If not, you might as well get two new ones and sell off the short ones. It's a desirable cable. The system you're building up sounds quite impressive.

Johnny, Johnny

Since you now seem to disbelieve in your own version of how DBT should be applied, I see that you're now pestering people with how you think your version of SBT can be used to drive them crazy. You're so mischievous and so unhelpful.

Where did I say I no longer believe in doing DBTs? Yet once more your reading comprehension is ZERO. Perhaps you see what you WANT to see. Where does it say in the two posts 3putt posted what sort of system he is building? "A new long entertainment unit" sounds impressive?All I saw was the mention of Kimber cable. Similiar  to you hearing what you WANT to hear? Lets not bring up your failed attempt in that other thread shall we?  It would only bring more shame to you once more. So doing a simple SBT is now in your opinion driving people crazy hmmmmm. Odd that you suggested that a SBT is doable and worhtwhile just hours before and even showed me some very poorly done examples in that link. Oh well at least you found the time to not only "help" 3putt but also the time to try and show me as being troublesome in the same post. Bravo!

I gave him some excellent advice IMO and he might just learn something doing the SBT I suggested. Are you trying to stifle anyone learning anything about audio, hearing and sight and  expectation bias? Shame on you ........for shame. Now go back over this post at least 3 times reading carefully before you open mouth and insert foot AGAIN  replying to words that really aren't here please.

Sorry, 3Putt!

Just having a bit of fun from another thread (Do your homework, Johnny!)

If your local shop has some used speaker cable for you to try out once you have your system all set up, might be fun to see what's equivalent or even better than the 4TC. You never know, the budget wire might surprise you.

(You can stop sputtering now, Johnny. I'll try not to spoil your fun anymore...unless...)

Oh thanks, I didn't know you had posted over in another part of the forum. If you do decide to do that SBT then remember to be sure you have no aural or visual clues from the other person doing the ramdom switching. This includes not even being able to see the other person at any time during the test. Do at least 20 random tests or more.Make sure you use the same speaker for testing since both pair will probably sound slightly different one from the other due to varying driver frequency and placement in the room..Also take into considerartion the comb filter affect. Moving your head just slightly will make the sound change. Try to keep still.Glad you are considering it.

Chris, what can I say but if this is how you document your own field of choice then your patients are in trouble. Do my homework? Am I supposed to read every post on this forum so that I can make sense of what you are trying to say?  Seriously. Flip flopping about testing again I see. You still think that UHF test was a valid way to do a SBT? HA!

So how about ABX? You said before that you know of NO DBT done in audio since it's so"difficult".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

"An ABX test is a method of comparing two kinds of sensory stimuli to identify detectable differences. A subject is presented with two known samples (sample A, the reference, and sample B, an alternative), and one unknown sample X, for three samples total. X is randomly selected from A and B, and the subject identifies X as being either A or B. If sample X cannot be determined reliably with a low p-value in a predetermined number of trials, then the null hypothesis cannot be rejected and it cannot be proven that there is a perceptible difference between samples A and B.

ABX tests can easily be performed as double-blind trials, eliminating any possible unconscious influence from the researcher or supervising technician.

ABX tests are commonly used in evaluations of digital audio data compression methods; sample A is typically an uncompressed sample, and sample B is a compressed version of A. Audible compression artifacts that indicate a shortcoming in the compression algorithm can be identified with subsequent testing. ABX tests can also be used to compare the different degrees of fidelity loss between two different audio formats at a given bitrate.

ABX tests can be used to audition input, processing, and output components as well as cabling: virtually any audio product or prototype design."

You said in the other thread:

"I've never seen a review or study published that successfully used DBT to evaluate any stereo component."

and FYI over at Hydrogen Audio here's a list of ABX blind tests.

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=82777

PS: Do your homework!

Now that's more like it... Let's go back to the Cables forum, the "linkedin audiophile group cable discussion" thread, the one we hijacked from hifitommy, and give 3Putt some peace and quiet so he can enjoy his new stereo (yay 2 channels!) system. We'll continue our discussion there. See ya.

I suggest that you do what I did.

I purchased a roll of #10 fine-stranded copper insulated blue wire (100 feet), and cut 8 12 foot lengths from it. 

I then soldered gold-plated lugs to both ends and and used them to bi-wire my Vandersteen 3A speakers to my Bryston power amp (Richard Vandersteen strongly recommends bi-wiring this speaker). I used red and black heat-shrink tubing to insulate the end of the wire and the base of the lugs.

These cables provide sound to die for in my system (which is, incidentally, a $30,000 system); I have had cables in the system for trials that cost thousands of dollars, and my home-made #10 cables were never surpassed for sound quality. Some of the expensive ones were quite noticeably inferior.

The roll of wire will probably cost about $160 and the lugs maybe $25 or so. You will find this is an excellent pair of cables for any application; unbeatable! Be sure you get wire with at least 40 strands to avoid it being too stiff to manipulate easily.

I got my wire from Mouser Electronics; Alpha Wire #602-3081-100-06 (this wire is composed of 105 strands) (each strand is a 30 ga. wire). This number is for blue, but you can get it in many colors. The last digit, 6, is for blue.

Actually...if you only need 8 feet and if you don't bi-wire, you could make 3 or 4 sets from a 100 foot roll and sell some and make a profit...lol.

3Putt wrote:

Can you lengthen speaker cable?

I have some Kimber 4TC that I wish was about 4ft longer, due to a new (long) entertainment unit I bought.

Thx.

3Putt wrote:

Alas, I don't have a soldering iron!

 You wanted to "splice" cable in your OP. Were you planning on "braiding" it? I mean you do have to solder if you want a good connection. Oh well. So much for THIS thread. You could still just go buy some commom "speaker wire" as sold at Lowes or Home Depot and do those SBT with your Kimber cable but then I suppose you won't be doing that either hmmmmmm?  In my book, wire is wire when it's of big enough gauge to handle the current. No need for pricey stuff.

The long and short of it (excuse the pun) is that Kimber is a really nice cable.  I know, I've had the 4tc in and out of my system for 5 years.  Kimber sells it in bulk rolls to some dealers.  You may find one who will custom terminate it at the length you need.  If that's the case see if he will take you old cables on trade.

What type of speakers are you using?

I'm not the one wanting Kimber cables.....it's that other guy that already has one that wanted it lengthened.

I'm quite happy with my "ordinary" speaker wire. I was just curious as to why he hasn't yet SBT his with "common" wire like he hinted at he would.

Can't you just fucking be happy with other people being happy enjoying an audio community?

For the love of God you are a buzzkill.

Son of a bitch.

Just ruins it for all the people that want to spend $3000 for cables and just guess that they actully do .....something........anything......but aren't sure because they don't havea rational way of evaluating the things.

 Now, now .....language! Aren't you enjoying your cables anymore?

JohnnyR, please keep mention of ABX tests to their own thread. One of our few forum rules is for posters not to use ABX tests as a club with which to demean other's opinions.

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

I see no "new rules' posted as of yet. So seriously, people can say ANYTHING they wish about "what they heard" and nobody can ask if they did any REAL testing to see if that was the case?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........wow this place is becoming the haven of the frauds and shills very quickly. Mr Kait will LOVE this "new rule" Congrats on burying this forum. Rest in Peace.

 of course the Open Bar still allows people to use vulgar demeaning language and insults to the max without ANY moderation at all. Nice forum you have here Atkinson. this place is a joke.

 You NEVER test anything you defend on these forums. You're a real dick head. Go fuck yourself.....Bye bye losers........Atkinson, you're pathetic. I won't miss being here so toodles.

Does this mean I'm banned?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

Johnny/Boris,

What a lonely, pointless life you have...

JohnnyR wrote:

I see no "new rules' posted as of yet.

This dates back to the earliest days of this forum. My experience from Usenet and other forums was that people like yourself, who demand posters who write about hearing differences take ABX tests, turn every thread into a thread about ABX testing. The bullying drives people away.

So if you really want to discuss ABX testing rather than just using it to demonstrate how smart you think you are, please start a new thread devoted to that subject. Or post to a forum like Hydrogen Audio, where it is a rule that all opinions must be supported by formal blind testing.

JohnnyR wrote:

So seriously, people can say ANYTHING they wish about "what they heard" and nobody can ask if they did any REAL testing to see if that was the case?

Correct. We want people to be free to express their opinions and debate them without flame warriors like yourself jumping all over them, particularly, as with the Fuse thread in General Rants'n'Raves, all you are doing is demonstrating your own lack of audio engineering knowledge.

JohnnyR wrote:

  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........wow this place is becoming the haven of the frauds and shills very quickly. Mr Kait will LOVE this "new rule"...

I believe people who frequent this forum are quite capable of making up their own minds about products like Mr. Kait's.

JohnnyR wrote:

of course the Open Bar still allows people to use vulgar demeaning language and insults to the max without ANY moderation at all.

That is the point of The Open Bar. It is basically an unmoderated wilderness where those who post there should have thick skins. If you are offended by the reaction to your posts in The Open Bar, stick to the rest of our forum.

JohnnyR wrote:

You NEVER test anything you defend on these forums. You're a real dick head. Go fuck yourself.....Bye bye losers........Atkinson, you're pathetic. I won't miss being here so toodles.

If that's how you realy feel, JohnnyR, then I wonder why you bother subscribing to Stereophile? Perhaps you don't, in which case I wonder why you post to this forum?

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

John,

I don't know how you do it, but your forum decorum is something we all could learn from, especially me. Classy.

Mark Evans

10 thousand foot picture here...  You (JohnnyR) make an effort to demean the opinion of others because they don't live up to your standards for testing, and then prove your point by attempting to demean the EDITOR OF THE MAGAZINE of whoms online forum you are using.  You berate and tell said editor to go fuck himself.  Then just for the fun of it say he doesn't test everything, when as part of his editorial duties he tests EVERYTHING they review.  For the most part, and I've been reading HiFi mags for nearly 20 of my 33 years, magazines for the most part don't test and review cables per say.  And when they do, they tend to be very qualitative in the language they use to describe the performance.

My guess, and it's just a guess, if there were a set of consistent set of measurements that could help users ascertain the relative sound quality, cables would a: be reviewed more often as par for the course and b: a full set of measurements would be given.  As it is, if for every bit of cable reviewed they listed the basic CLR, as well as current delivery, the speed which voltage drop and recovery occurred, as well as the basic description of the construction and termination techniques as described by the manufacturer - that still wouldn't be overly descriptive of how a cable would perform with YOUR equipment.  Which is precisely why ABX test are basically useless.  The only test that matter are when I put cable a in my system, what's it sound like?  When I switch to cable b, what's it sound like?

I've done that, probably a hundred times back and forth using a variety of high quality cables in my system and each sounded different.  I'm not as some in our audience are, an electrical engineer.  However, some things are predictable regarding the gauge of the cable, how tightly it's turned, the length of the cable, etc., WILL OFTEN relate to a warmer or brighter sound, more congested stage or less congested stage and so forth.

At the end of the day what we do Johnny, IS TEST.  Over and over and over.  With test equipment so sophisticated 100 years of electrical engineering hasn't surpassed it...  OUR EARS!