BillB wrote:

Replaced Monsters between pre and power amps with Analysis Plus interconnects.  Doggone it, I can tell the difference.  Sounds better.  gdam it, now I have to think about replacing the other monsters. 

Bill:

Wonderful hobby/obsession, isn't it?

Enjoy!

Jeff

Hi Bill,

Your new digital cable might have cleaned up the bass a little giving you a tighter and faster sound, also  a new cable needs time to break in..

I hope that helps.. Jerry 

That's what I am talking about!

You replace a cable with a spanking new costly one, well yeah of course it's going to sound "different" and "better". You think your brain is going to let you hear no difference afetr spending all that money? Next time do a double blind test and see if you can pick which cable is which without being able to see which one is in the system then report back your results.

JohnnyR wrote:

You replace a cable with a spanking new costly one, well yeah of course it's going to sound "different" and "better". You think your brain is going to let you hear no difference afetr spending all that money? Next time do a double blind test and see if you can pick which cable is which without being able to see which one is in the system then report back your results.

Ah, the double blind test, favorite ploy of died in the wool pseudo-skeptics who can't hear, cannot assemble a resolving system and who wish the same incompetance on others.

"There are none so blind than those that will not see." - old audiophile axiom

"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance." - old audiophile axiom

geoff kait
machina dynamica

the guy who sells voodoo crap products that do NOTHING except take people's money in return. Mr Kait, if you trust your ears only then a DBT is the perfect test duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. What's the matter, you don't think you can pick which cable is which in a DBT?  You're probably right because if the cable doesn't change the frequency, phase or level of the signal then there will be NO DIFFERENCE. Funny how REAL science works isn't it unlike your shill fraudulent products. Quote some more meaningless lines , we love seeing you flounder in the quagmire of self delusion and pig headedness

Hey, Mr. Smarty Pants, there's nothing wrong with DBTs. Unfortunately, like any other test you pseudo-skeptics wish to espouse, they do not prove anything, especially when results are negative. Don't you know that? No need to respond, it's a rhetorical question.

geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio conceits

Wow that was one of the worst arguments I've ever read. First you said'

"Ah, the double blind test, favorite ploy of died in the wool pseudo-skeptics who can't hear, cannot assemble a resolving system and who wish the same incompetance on others."

Then you reply with,

"Hey, Mr. Smarty Pants, there's nothing wrong with DBTs. Unfortunately, like any other test you pseudo-skeptics wish to espouse, they do not prove anything, especially when results are negative. Don't you know that? No need to respond, it's a rhetorical question."

By the way I'm not a pseudo-skeptic I'm a dyed in the wool skeptic. So which is it Mr Kait, either you think DBTs work or they don't. You can't have it both ways. So in essence you are saying DBTs aren't worth your time because.......you don't trust your ears. You can't tell a difference when the UUT is removed or in the system? I think that proves quite a bit. That the UUT does NOTHING to the signal. Show me some DBTs you have performed on your own products. I'll be waiting........and waiting........and waiting.......ZzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzz.

JohnnyR wrote:

Wow that was one of the worst arguments I've ever read. First you said'

"Ah, the double blind test, favorite ploy of died in the wool pseudo-skeptics who can't hear, cannot assemble a resolving system and who wish the same incompetance on others."

Then you reply with,

"Hey, Mr. Smarty Pants, there's nothing wrong with DBTs. Unfortunately, like any other test you pseudo-skeptics wish to espouse, they do not prove anything, especially when results are negative. Don't you know that? No need to respond, it's a rhetorical question."

By the way I'm not a pseudo-skeptic I'm a dyed in the wool skeptic. So which is it Mr Kait, either you think DBTs work or they don't. You can't have it both ways. So in essence you are saying DBTs aren't worth your time because.......you don't trust your ears. You can't tell a difference when the UUT is removed or in the system? I think that proves quite a bit. That the UUT does NOTHING to the signal. Show me some DBTs you have performed on your own products. I'll be waiting........and waiting........and waiting.......ZzzzzzzzzZzzzzzzzzz.

Guess ya got me there. Let me clarify. DBTs don't work. OK, you're a died in the wool pseudo-skeptic. Feel better?

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica

anything at all about DBTs yet you find the time to spout off false statements about them. If I was you I'd spend more time studying up on real science and physics instead of labeling your crap products as being "quantum trendy" whatevers. You might come across as being smarter. Hmm perhaps that's stretching the impossible.

JohnnyR wrote:

Geoff Kait wrote:

Hey, Mr. Smarty Pants, there's nothing wrong with DBTs. Unfortunately, like any other test you pseudo-skeptics wish to espouse, they do not prove anything, especially when results are negative. Don't you know that? No need to respond, it's a rhetorical question.

By the way I'm not a pseudo-skeptic I'm a dyed in the wool skeptic. So which is it Mr Kait, either you think DBTs work or they don't.

Without wishing to side with Geoff, wose products raise my eyebrows uncomfortably high, you should note that you cna't prove a negative with a  blind test. If you perform a blind test that didn't produce a score any different from chance, the only comment that can be made about the result is that _if_ there was a sonic difference, it could not be detected under the conditions of that specific test. This is basic statistics. As frustrating as skeptics find this to be, you can't draw a more general conclusion from the null result.

John Atkinson

Editor, Stereophile

I always find it strange that an audio magizine never bothers to do DBTs when they are so badly needed.  In your example above, if the dbt produced a score no better than chance then of course the person could not hear a difference. if said person could hear a difference each time then they wouldn't have a score no better than chance.  People who always say DBTs are not needed because they know what they heard are just being fooled by sighted bias. If they truly trusted their ears and didn't have to rely upon their eyes also, then they wouldn't mind using DBTs. Of course you will still argue forever against using DBTs so I'm not expecting a reasonable response from you since the most you can say about Mr Kait's products is "wose products raise my eyebrows uncomfortably high"  most sane people know that his products are pure fraud.

Don't need DBT! Download the free (but incomplete) PDF edition of the latest UHF Magazine, a Canadian audio publication, and read how the writers compare cables using single blind testing. SBT is fun, unprententious, and yields surprising results!

http://uhfmag.com/Issue90/Issue90.html

and it's a very poorly done test. Sounds like (pun intended) they just switched out the cables without even trying to randomize the sequeunce, hence every listener knew in advance that the next cable was going to be different.In fact it reads like they just did one test of each cable, first one, then the second and that was it. It's called expectaton bias. If you know for a fact that the next listen is with a different cable then of course you are straining to hear a difference and that in itself biased the results. Did they actually hear a difference? Maybe, but they didn't even bother to make any frequency, phase or level tests at all using readily available equipment. It's just more "I know what I heard" say so. I really got a laugh out of the listeners comments, " I noticed an acceleration in the ryhthem"  Really? The cable made the tempo change?Wow.must be some magic cable......"There's more lower bass, and upper bass too" Did they measure the increase in bass to verify? of course not.........They kept refering to sounds being louder, wouldn't a simple test reveal if the cable was altering the line level?  Yep but that wasn't an their agenda I suppose.  If this is an example of doing a SBT then they should just forget doing any testing next time and just write the first thing that pops into their heads. Hmmmmm maybe that is what they did after all come to think of it.

Everyone should read this http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html  it explains why listening tests can be so wrong at times. Even a very small change in head position can affect what you hear. Of course this is never taken into consideration with all the audio tests done in the majority of listening reviews. "Well what if I only use a single speaker switched to mono?" you may ask. That will eliminate the comb filtering between two speakers BUT still you have the speaker playing into a certain sized room which has it's own set of room modes that change the frequency response depending on where you are sitting.  Here's a simple test anyone can do, put on a CD of pink noise or even tune your old FM tuner to a unused frequency and listen to the hiss. Now move your head around a bit and see how the sound changes? Have fun thinking about all the past listening reviews you have read now.

We knew it wuz you all the time.

geoff kait
machina dynamica

Anyone who links to some one elses website is automatically a sockpuppet?  Get a grip Mr Kait and take your meds. If you have something constructive to say about the audio subject then please feel free to join in, otherwise kindly pissoff and go make some more voodoo fraud products pal.  Have a nice day.

Well done DBT's tell me if there's a difference or not... That's all. They don't tell me if I, a middle age Asian guy with some high frequency hearing deficit who likes  50's and 60's jazz, will like what a particular component will do to the sound of my music system. The UHF writers and those of Stereophile give me an indication of what might be suitable for my means, my hearing ability and my taste in music. I've been a customer at a local brick and mortar "stereo" shop for over 25 years whose proprietors have been very good about lending equipment and components for me to try for a week at a time. If I read about something in one of these publications and it's available to borrow, I'll give it a spin. If I like it, I buy it. Simple. That 100 listeners noted a difference between cable A and cable B doesn't tell me anything, unless of course the test was carried out on my stereo system in my living room and those 100 listeners were middle age Asian guys with a slight hearing loss who happen to like jazz. I'd then ask those listeners "You heard a difference, but which one did you like and why?" The writers of both these mags do an excellent job of conveying this type of information and guiding my choice of purchases, but ultimately, it's my ears that tell me if a component "sounds" better or not.

Glad you found your niche in the troubled fraudulant world of cables Chris. Keeps your local "high end" dealer in pocket change for his next sail boat. You mentioned 100 listeners noting a difference between cable A and cable B but what if they found no difference?  Ahhhhhhh there's the rub, you don't think DBTs are able to show a "no difference" situation and that cables will always sound different? Have you done any DBTs or are you just talking hypothetically? As for your high frequency deficit, I suggest turning up the treble control a notch or two (which is what it was made for)instead of relying upon cables to make up the difference (Cables purpose are to deliver a signal from point A to point B UNCHANGED).

 No Chris it's people from UHF and Stereophile that tell you to buy certain components and you follow willy nilly, convinced that it's your own ears that are the true hallmark of what is "correct". I suppose you didn't read the link posted above concerning comb filtering? How do you think "reviewers" can "test" cables like they did in your example and not take that into consideration?  Move your head an inch or two and BAM there goes any possibility of comparing cable A to cable B in any scientific manner. Just think more about what the link says. Of course you hear a "difference" with your NEW cables or NEW (insert component here). Don't you find it strange that such "reviewers" never bother to back up what they "hear" with any sort of measurments? I mean if some one heard "more lower and mid bass"it should be obviously measurable hmmm?

 Hey if you want to continue to rely upon that type of "test" done by UHF, then please do so, just don't delude yourself into thinking that it's the correct way to test any sort of cable.

i like what you said about the local dealer.

the local store can be a great resourse.  i have had lots of help from that quarter.  after 30 years, my local store is barely hanging in there after the double whammy of the internet and the recession.  i too have borrowed much equipment and bought some but not all.  i'm a middle aged, some hearing deficit jazz loving guy too, but not asian.  i have switched all of my cables recently from the well known nordost to those made by an audiogon advertiser who is not so well known, but he gives a return policy and also happens to be a neighbor.  in my time in the hobby, i have heard huge differences in both tonal balance and effects such as sound stage through the changing of cables (probably related to changes in capacitance).  obviously, not everyone will agree that such is possible, but for me at least, it certainly has been true. 

nice talking to you.

Then they are badly designed cables. The purpose of cables are to simply connect two pieces of equipment and to transfer the audio signal WITHOUT varying the signal what so ever. Costly well known cables may be made so that you DO hear a difference by changing the frequency response, phase and signal level from flat. If that is the case then they are doing everyone a disservice by causing more problems than they are solving. If a wire varies my frequency response, then why is that a good thing? I have bass and treble tone controls for that purpose on my amp.If you like playing the "cable of the month" merry-go-round then feel free to purchase whatever. Hearing a "huge difference" in tonal balance and "soundstage" is often quoted without any measuements to back up said claims. Just more, I hear blah blah blah. Honsetly  how a cable can change the soundstage is beyond me. I think that's quite impossible.

Well JohnnyR,

I hope you enjoy the music you play on your music system. I certainly enjoy mine!

Thanks for the banter.

Hi Tom,

I too found the same difference when I tried the mid-level Wireworld Aurora power cords on my Linn components. Even though Linn strongly recommends against playing around with power cords, I went ahead and tried out several manufacturers, as well as the entry level and higher level Wireworld cords.

Having this kind relationship with the local shop and the opportunity to try out components has made this hobby for me more fun and less frustrating (although I've also had my share of disastrous on-line purchases) and I believe has also helped me to become a better listener.

Dyed in the wool "audiophools" will never try a simple test like I suggested with pink noise or even read about why the endless buying of cables for the past 30 years has always been due to simple comb filtering. Now we are talking about power cords HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!Have fun wasting money on pricey cables. I'm done.

"I'm done."

If only that were true.  Business a little slow, Nathan?   Havng trouble selling those refrigerator doors?  LOL

geoff kait

machina dynamica

Johnny R.:

What a little energizer bunny you are.  Just wind you up and you keep going and going and going.  Do you have any original thoughts, or do you just regurgitate platitudes?  Been on the forum for less than a month and already, we have heard your entire repertoire.  Sorry about the big words Johnny Boy, but you can look them up.

Let's try again.  I have purchased records from Mr. Kait's (true).  He was an excellent person to do business, completely honest and shipped fast (all true).  OK, you take it from here big guy.  Tell us again what a rat bast__d Mr. Kait is.

JohnnyR wrote:

Dyed in the wool "audiophools" will never try a simple test like I suggested with pink noise or even read about why the endless buying of cables for the past 30 years has always been due to simple comb filtering. Now we are talking about power cords HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!Have fun wasting money on pricey cables. I'm done.

damn.... just when I was fixing to purchase this:

geoffkait wrote:

"I'm done."

 

If only that were true.  Business a little slow, Nathan?   Havng trouble selling those refrigerator doors?  LOL

 

geoff kait

machina dynamica

Always the pathetic paranoid fraud Mr Kait?

tom collins wrote:

Johnny R.:

 

What a little energizer bunny you are.  Just wind you up and you keep going and going and going.  Do you have any original thoughts, or do you just regurgitate platitudes?  Been on the forum for less than a month and already, we have heard your entire repertoire.  Sorry about the big words Johnny Boy, but you can look them up.

 

Let's try again.  I have purchased records from Mr. Kait's (true).  He was an excellent person to do business, completely honest and shipped fast (all true).  OK, you take it from here big guy.  Tell us again what a rat bast__d Mr. Kait is.

Original thoughts like Mr Kait's?  I'd rather have  lobotomy. Just like Mr kait you revert to insults?  The acorn doesn't fall far from the oak tree I see. Oh gosh you bought some records from Mr Kait, have you ever bought any of his FRAUD products and if not why not?  I mean they promise to do oh so much to improve your system's sound. Get back with me after you have purchased the Teleport Tweek.

soulful.terrain wrote:

damn.... just when I was fixing to purchase this:

Please do I'd love to hear the results

Just replying to my "fans" on here and now I can honestly say I won't be replying to anymore in this thread. Feel free to insult and name call all you want since that seems to be what you do best.

Once you let the cockroaches get a foothold in your home they are very difficult to get rid of.

geoff kait
machina dynamica

Johnny:  if we who have followed this thread for years had not heard the exact same things as you profess for all of these years, some of us might have more patience.  thanks for dropping it however.

I have really been chasing my tail for quite some time on this.  I would listen at recordings, listen for minutia details, change cables, listen again, change to a third cable....  JA had a statement "That way madness lies." regarding comparing USB cables in a recent review that pretty much sums it up.

One day I realized that I had set my own "base", or benchmark, for what I was listening to.  My "better" was, in my biased preference, better than the last combination of variables.

I regularly listen to Erin Bode and other jazz/blues artists in small intimate settings.  So, what I started doing was changing the cables and comparing what I was listening to, to what I had just heard live.  I had several high end cables, so called cheep high end "equals" and the like.  So, you know what I found to be closest in my system to what I heard live?  Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 ($30).  There is no way I would have chosen them based on the perceived quailities (resolution, "air" and the like) that I was judging things by previously.

So what I find the issue for me was not the fact that I can hear diffences, but "What is it that is being 'recreated'?".

I was happily reading this thread, then the mention of Blue Jean Cable brought it home. I enjoy cable discussions, with the back and forth arguments. Kind of reminds me of oil threads on motorcycle forums. Lots of opinions. When I set up my current system I chose mostly Blue Jean Cables for most of the various connections (except QED speaker wire). The company is local to me, and they offer semi-custom cables of reliable quality, based on basic engineering principles. Reading the claims of improved sound, or different sound, from sometimes very expensive cables has to make one wonder. One of the things that has kept me from trying different cables is the thought that I won't hear any change. Or the certainty that I will hear a change. In fact the sound of my system changes all the time. At certain times the music I'm hearing sounds surprisingly wonderful. Then at another time, it seems kind of off, rough, or crude. Often the sound will seem to change in the course of one listening session, usually getting slightly worse, or at least less enjoyable. I believe the inconsistency in the sound of my system is in my perception of it. Moods, audio memory limitations, medication, may be some part of it. So I'm not anxious to throw different cables into the mix, since I'm still getting improvements through component changes. I have a hard enough time deciding which DAC circuit I prefer, if I can even hear a difference. My instinct tells me a DAC should have a lot more bearing on the sound than a length of wire. Mabe one of these days I'll get around to trying some upscale cables, but I think right now a speaker upgrade would be a surer bet toward audio bliss.

I have experimented with many unbalanced cables over the years and done extensive listening and laboratory testing on them in an engineering lab.

I have found that in many cases, changing cables has a slight effect, while in other cases the difference can be very plainly audible.

There are certain equipment combinations, that is, which are more sensitive to this than one might predict. This is due to the variations of the internal design of the equipment grounding scheme, which is a rather technical subject having to do primarily with the circuit capacitance of the equipment's floating signal ground and how it interacts with the cable capacitance and inductance at both the source and destination of the signal.

One thing that seems to make a great difference is where the cable has two internal conductors surrounded by a shield, and the shield is terminated only at one end and is NOT connected at the other.

This prevents the shield from carrying signal current, as it must in simple coaxial designs, which is highly undesirable. Simple coaxial cables obviously must use the shield for the signal current return, and the signal is therefore much more vulnerable to corruption and degradation. The vast majority of unbalanced cables use the simple coaxial design, which is highly problematical.

My experience from both listening and testing is that Monster consistently makes cables that are extremely bad; worse, in many cases, at degrading the sound than the cheapest $5 generic cable. I am not sure why they are always so consistently awful, but one obvious reason is that they use low-quality dielectric materials. I avoid them like the plague in any case.

Among the best I have found, which use the superior 3-conductor signal-less shield configuration, are the Audioquest Diamondback and similarly constructed cables from other manufacturers.

It is not always easy to tell which cables are constructed this way; you may need to contact the manufacturer and pin them down. Just ask if the shield is terminated at one end only.

The fundamental difficulty, of course, is the horribly flawed basic design of the unbalanced cable, which is an engineer's nightmare.

Balanced cables isolate both signal conductors from the shield at BOTH ENDS, and therefore are perfectly free from ANY signal degradation under any circumstance. You will NEVER find ANY unbalanced cables in a recording studio or recording venue; guess why?....duhhhh. They are, basically, no damn good.

A high-end sound system SHOULD BE AN ALL-BALANCED SYSTEM!!!!!  Until we realize that, we are subject to the degradations in sound quality that can and do occur with unbalanced cables.

BillB wrote:

Replaced Monsters between pre and power amps with Analysis Plus interconnects.  Doggone it, I can tell the difference.  Sounds better.  gdam it, now I have to think about replacing the other monsters. 

Commsysman wrote..

Balanced cables isolate both signal conductors from the shield at BOTH ENDS, and therefore are perfectly free from ANY signal degradation under any circumstance. You will NEVER find ANY unbalanced cables in a recording studio or recording venue; guess why?....duhhhh. They are, basically, no damn good.

 

I never used any of the balanced cable's in my system, do they sound much better then the unbalanced cables or is it merely to have a better connection? I am using high quality unbalanced cables in my system at the present time. Cardas. JPS Labs, Stereovox, etc..

 

Started to post and realised I said I wasn;'t going to respond to this thread anymore......have fun.

Maybe you'll consider not posting on any of these forums until you finish your high school equivalency.

Geoff Kait
Marachino Dramatica

Now maybe my moron detector will quit going off all the time....

Recording studios and recording venues use cheap reliable balanced connections because they know from experience that this gives them 100% reliable connections that are totally free of distortion or interference every single time they connect one; even in lengths over 100 feet, and even when the signal level is very low; as in a microphone. No problems whatsoever, unless a wire actually breaks or shorts out.

Unbalanced cables MAY give good results IF the equipment at either end has been well-engineered and IF the cable is kept short and IF there is no nearby source of interference or hum, and IF IF IF IF....

Get the picture?? NO sound engineer would EVER use an unbalanced cable, because he doesnt have the time to waste sorting out potential problems.

Its kind of like...would you rather take a medicine with NO known side-effects or one with 15 or 20 possible serious side-effects that you MAY be able to avoid if you are very careful?

I use balanced connections in my system everywhere that I can because I don't want to have to screw around with the potential loss of sound quality that often occurs with unbalanced connections. Why screw around attempting to get an inferior technology to work when there is a proven flawless one available?

(also...AES/EBU standard cable costs about a dollar per foot, and XLR connectors cost about 3 dollars each. I can make balanced cables for very little money, and buy them ready-made for not much more).  

What it really comes down to is this. Equipment can be made cheaper when unbalanced connections are used. It is then up to the user to screw around and expend a lot of time and MONEY to try to get their system optimized, since the manufacturer cheaped out on the design.

This problem will cease to exist when audiophiles become educated to the fundamentally inferior nature of unbalanced connections between units and refuse to buy anything that does not have balanced connections. The audiophile press is partly to blame for not doing a good job of making this happen sooner rather than later.

With properly engineered balanced circuit connections, the equipment is going to cost more to manufacture, but the the cables are very cheap and there is no time or money spent optimizing them, because every balanced cable is a sonically perfect connection. NOTHING is a bigger waste of money than buying a "premium-quality" balanced cable, since there is no such thing, sonically-speaking.

But some people love to have to tweak, don't they? I know people whose idea of getting a car that performs is to buy a Honda Civic and upgrade the brakes, engine, suspension ,etc. I just went down to the dealer and bought a Corvette; a much better car becuse it was designed for maximum performance before it went into production.

kager wrote:

Commsysman wrote..

Balanced cables isolate both signal conductors from the shield at BOTH ENDS, and therefore are perfectly free from ANY signal degradation under any circumstance. You will NEVER find ANY unbalanced cables in a recording studio or recording venue; guess why?....duhhhh. They are, basically, no damn good.

 

I never used any of the balanced cable's in my system, do they sound much better then the unbalanced cables or is it merely to have a better connection? I am using high quality unbalanced cables in my system at the present time. Cardas. JPS Labs, Stereovox, etc..

 

Thank you very much for the insight unfortunately only my Dac has the balanced connections at the present time. I will try these with future audio purchases..

i was told by a very knowledgable fellow that many preamps and amps that offer both were initially designed using either balanced or unbalanced connectors and the other set was added just for convenience.  i can't say whether it is true or not, but can say that when i changed from unbalanced to balanced in my system, the difference was so great that i never looked back.  in looking through the amp maker's manual, the impedence is different in this amp between the different connections.  whatever, it just hooked up with my preamp in a far better way.

In some cases, manufacturers have added XLR connectors to a piece of equipment without actually designing the internal circuitry as a properly balanced circuit configuration, in which case the advantage of using them is considerably reduced.

This is fortunately not the case with most equipment; most equipment that provide XLR balanced connections actually HAS properly designed fully balanced circuitry internally.

quote=tom collins]

i was told by a very knowledgable fellow that many preamps and amps that offer both were initially designed using either balanced or unbalanced connectors and the other set was added just for convenience.  i can't say whether it is true or not, but can say that when i changed from unbalanced to balanced in my system, the difference was so great that i never looked back.  in looking through the amp maker's manual, the impedence is different in this amp between the different connections.  whatever, it just hooked up with my preamp in a far better way.

[/quote]

JohnnyR wrote:

the guy who sells voodoo crap products that do NOTHING except take people's money in return. Mr Kait, if you trust your ears only then a DBT is the perfect test duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. What's the matter, you don't think you can pick which cable is which in a DBT?  You're probably right because if the cable doesn't change the frequency, phase or level of the signal then there will be NO DIFFERENCE. Funny how REAL science works isn't it unlike your shill fraudulent products. Quote some more meaningless lines , we love seeing you flounder in the quagmire of self delusion and pig headedness

Yeah, cables dont break in... pfft.

Electricity doesn't do ANYTHING to metals! Or plastic.. Or..

Believe what you want to believe.. They all sound the same too. 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA.

and it's math is all wrong too.

So yeah, all cable designers are liars.  They couldn't possibly know anything that you don't already know. 

Yeah...

JohnnyR wrote:

Started to post and realised I said I wasn;'t going to respond to this thread anymore......have fun.

Thanks Johnny.  No one will miss you either.