Ariel Bitran
Ariel Bitran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Jun 1 2007 - 2:14pm
Engineering
Drtrey3
Drtrey3's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 10 months ago
Joined: Aug 17 2008 - 2:52pm

there is information inside a record's groove that is measured in angstroms. Given that it is a physical medium, so much can be done to maximize the retrieval of that info. So turntables, especially high end ones, are close to scientific instruments.

Then there is the economy of scale when a large manufacturer can sell hundreds of thousands of a particular model that makes car manufacturing more economical.

God I love capitalism!

Trey

greenelec
greenelec's picture
Offline
Last seen: 9 years 11 months ago
Joined: Feb 10 2006 - 12:37am

The car has more engineering, but much of the engineering has been built on 100 years of experience. Consider the engineering that is required to make a tire. Chemicals, mold production, tread design, mounting interface etc. etc. the thing is, most of this has been figured out for years, and the car manufacturer can farm this out to the tire manufacturer. A lot of the engineering involved in a car is farmed out to others.

A turntable on the other hand, even though they have been made for 60-70 years, today is engineered from a blank sheet of paper. It is my view that audio cutting edge equipment is the cutting edge of engineering and design.

I have personally been in the manufacturing facilities of both Boulder Amplifiers and Ball Aerospace (a major builder of sattellites including the mars rovers) and I have seen that Boulder Amplifiers are built to specs that are tighter than those used for sattellites.

So it seems to me, that even though a car is much more complicated than a turntable. It is entirely possible that the turntable could be designed and engineered to a higher level of precision than any of the componets in a car. Except for the internals of the modern internal combustion engine, which is truly some magical engineering.

The answer to your question is, Depends on what you mean, more engineering, engineering to a higher spec, cutting edge? Well the answer is it probably takes more engineers to design a car but the engineer that designes a turntable probably has a lot more fun (challenge).

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm

If the turntable had 80% of its cost tied up in materials, then one could make the case...Is it does not, the case fails.

Ariel Bitran
Ariel Bitran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Jun 1 2007 - 2:14pm
greenelec wrote:

The answer to your question is, Depends on what you mean, more engineering, engineering to a higher spec, cutting edge? Well the answer is it probably takes more engineers to design a car but the engineer that designes a turntable probably has a lot more fun (challenge).

happy to clarify is my question was very broad to begin with

the question has two angles: engineering in relationship to price point-->the amount of work put in to developing a new Camry vs. the amount of work put in to developing a new turntable -- which is a truer price relative the amount of work put into it (regardless of other costs -- if you had to pinpoint the % of total cost that engineering plays into the car/component)

and maybe the question doesnt necessarily have to deal specifically to engineering

could be expanded to costs of engineering AND parts (for now): making a new camry vs. total costs and parts of making a new turntable.

Ariel Bitran
Ariel Bitran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Jun 1 2007 - 2:14pm
JIMV wrote:

If the turntable had 80% of its cost tied up in materials, then one could make the case...Is it does not, the case fails.

thanks jimv

i'm interested in hearing others opinions as well and if they agree with you.

michaelavorgna
michaelavorgna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Sep 26 2007 - 5:40pm

My guess is Toyota spends more on toilet tissue in one year than any small, closely held hi-fi company spends on R&D. Ever.

Ariel Bitran
Ariel Bitran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Jun 1 2007 - 2:14pm

ah yes, i now remember the phrase i wished to use comparing purely engineering costs: consider everything else "all else equal"

that aside... (just had to say it)

Quote:

My guess is Toyota spends more on toilet tissue in one year than any small, closely held hi-fi company spends on R&D. Ever.

interesting ML. if we bring Parts into the equation (leaving marketing and production costs as equal)-->what do you think creates a greater % of the price in the car or the component: engineering or parts?

j_j
j_j's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 10 months ago
Joined: Mar 13 2009 - 4:22pm

Both products depend on hundreds of years of scientific research and engineering experience.

I don't think you can compare the two meaningfully. Cars have to be reliable and able to deal with macroscopic amounts of power. Turntables have to be reliable, but only deal with microscopic amounts of power, BUT they must deal with it very, very carefully (from an engineering POV) in order to get a good result.

I just hope my turntable keeps working. My teac V7 cassette deck just demonstrated to me that it can no longer wind tape on to its takeup reel :(

sigh

Ariel Bitran
Ariel Bitran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Jun 1 2007 - 2:14pm
j_j wrote:

Both products depend on hundreds of years of scientific research and engineering experience.

true. for the sake of conversation though, the first incarnations of both of these types of items came into existence in the late 1800s

j_j wrote:

Cars have to be reliable and able to deal with macroscopic amounts of power. Turntables have to be reliable, but only deal with microscopic amounts of power, BUT they must deal with it very, very carefully (from an engineering POV) in order to get a good result.

this is a very interesting perspective.

Quote:

I just hope my turntable keeps working. My teac V7 cassette deck just demonstrated to me that it can no longer wind tape on to its takeup reel :(

well u know, there's nothing more reliable than a camry!

michaelavorgna
michaelavorgna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Sep 26 2007 - 5:40pm

> I don't think you can compare the two meaningfully.

Well put.

Jeff0000
Jeff0000's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 2 months ago
Joined: Mar 30 2009 - 8:28pm

According to Google the average number of parts in a car is anywhere from 1,700 to over 10,000 if you choose to count all the parts that make up the computer control modules. While Google didn't even provide a hint as to how many parts make up the average turntable, it is far far less than the car.
The car wins the engineering question on shear volume. However, if you choose to narrow the question to which is more precisely engineered then the turntable wins without question ... never heard of VPI issuing a mass recall of a model for an engineering issue. Toyota, on the other hand ....
However, I think the best answer is that you really cannot compare the two in any meaningful way.

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm

The car is regulated to a fare the well and is litigated as well. The turntable has none of those costs.

j_j
j_j's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 10 months ago
Joined: Mar 13 2009 - 4:22pm
Ariel Bitran wrote:

true. for the sake of conversation though, the first incarnations of both of these types of items came into existence in the late 1800s

Yes, but Helmholtz, Fichte, even to some extent DeCarte and Kant, Popper, d'Alembert (sp?), Euler, Bernoulli, LaGrange, Hooke, Maxwell, etc, all had substantial influence, and laid the basis for what finally was invented. Interestingly, most of their foundation was not applied at the start of the technology.

returnstackerror
returnstackerror's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 11 months ago
Joined: May 17 2007 - 8:32pm

I use this simple yardstick.

A family of four cannot die while driving a turntable.

Even the cheapest car has to be able to steer, turn corners and brake perfectly... everytime... year after year.

So to me, NO high priced audio equipment can justify its price when measured by that standard.

Peter

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
returnstackerror wrote:

Even the cheapest car has to be able to steer, turn corners and brake perfectly... everytime... year after year.

Ideally. You might not have noticed all the problems Toyota (you know, maker of the Camry) has been having with Quality Control of things like, uh, brakes. At least 4 million cars have been recalled in the last year alone for fuel leaks, gas pedal problems and related issues.

Cheerio,

Geoff Kait
Macarena Dynamica

returnstackerror
returnstackerror's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 11 months ago
Joined: May 17 2007 - 8:32pm
geoffkait wrote:
returnstackerror wrote:

Even the cheapest car has to be able to steer, turn corners and brake perfectly... everytime... year after year.

Ideally. You might not have noticed all the problems Toyota (you know, maker of the Camry) has been having with Quality Control of things like, uh, brakes. At least 4 million cars have been recalled in the last year alone for fuel leaks, gas pedal problems and related issues.

Cheerio,

Geoff Kait
Macarena Dynamica

A red herring comment.

But it shows that cars DO need to be safe hence the recalls and despite the FUD around, this no one has died.

And it is not unknown for high end electronics to also need a recall.

Pinback
Pinback's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 30 2011 - 9:06pm

Super-high-end gear has an artistic as well as mechanical value. Some of these components are pure works of art, and as such demand a premium, as would any other accepted art form.

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm

That depends on how the item fares over time. Art is subject to fad...If the $50K box has an artistic value, that value will exist in 50 years...if it doesn't, then the items current 'value' is overstated.

geoffkait
geoffkait's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 months 1 week ago
Joined: Apr 29 2008 - 5:10am
JIMV wrote:

That depends on how the item fares over time. Art is subject to fad...If the $50K box has an artistic value, that value will exist in 50 years...if it doesn't, then the items current 'value' is overstated.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3604/3325649121_ea858987f3.jpg

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm

Hence the success of the Pet Rock

There is a sucker born every minute...to coin a phrase

michaelavorgna
michaelavorgna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Sep 26 2007 - 5:40pm

with artistic value. The latter is purely subjective and independent of cost, while the former is influenced by many factors which are separate and distinct from the actual work.

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm

That sounds a lot like an excuse to justify ugly as art, or excessive cost with the same

michaelavorgna
michaelavorgna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Sep 26 2007 - 5:40pm

or its history.

There have been differences in the perception of beauty over time and between cultures forever.

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm

Yet ugly is forever...

Erick Lichte
Erick Lichte's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 2 weeks ago
Joined: Nov 7 2010 - 4:40pm
Does the Spiral Groove accelerate uncontrollably mid-record? If not, then it is clear to me the turntable has at least as much engineering as a Camry.
michaelavorgna
michaelavorgna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Sep 26 2007 - 5:40pm

Once you realize 'beautiful' and 'ugly' are not inherent in the work of art (or anything else for that matter), rather they are traits applied to it and therefore prone to change willy-nilly, you'll see why.

Pinback
Pinback's picture
Offline
Last seen: 13 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 30 2011 - 9:06pm

Just because I don't see Art in a Warhol, it doesn't mean it isn't art. Ugly to one person may be Beauty to another, and vice versa. Who am I to judge what another sees (or hears). Let each pay to the extent he/she deems worthy. If it's too much for you, don't buy it.

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm
michaelavorgna wrote:

Once you realize 'beautiful' and 'ugly' are not inherent in the work of art (or anything else for that matter), rather they are traits applied to it and therefore prone to change willy-nilly, you'll see why.

The change has to stand the test of time. Just like 90% of any generations music is crap, the 10% that remains comes to define the age...Put another way, what folk will pay for a few decades after the 'art' is produced pretty much defines what is art, and what was just pretense.

Ariel Bitran
Ariel Bitran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 7 years 8 months ago
Joined: Jun 1 2007 - 2:14pm

to each person his own in terms of appreciating the quality of art, but in the grand scheme of things, the best art will outlive the lesser art-->by this i mean, that art lies on a spectrum from bad to good, only the best stuff will survive.

to quote my lead singer: "Cat Power is great, but she's no Paul Simon."

JIMV
JIMV's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 years 1 month ago
Joined: Jan 31 2008 - 1:46pm

That I agree with...the idea that one can justify a super expensive audio item as 'art' and not based on its sound and parts is my only concern...

michaelavorgna
michaelavorgna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Sep 26 2007 - 5:40pm

We seem to be conflating these two – experiencing and investing.

I would say that the real value of a work of art lies in the experiencing of it. Unless of course we’re concerned with investing, time and/or money and/or reputation, in which case these other valuations like good and bad come into play.

I’m personally not interested in this type of investing, as I prefer to experience my music and art simply for myself.

absolutepitch
absolutepitch's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 4 weeks ago
Joined: Jul 9 2006 - 8:58pm
Drtrey3 wrote:

there is information inside a record's groove that is measured in angstroms. ...

Can you give an example or calculation of what information on a vinyl groove is in the angstrom range?

John Atkinson
John Atkinson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 hour 59 sec ago
Joined: Nov 7 2010 - 3:31pm
absolutepitch wrote:
Drtrey3 wrote:
there is information inside a record's groove that is measured in angstroms. ...
Can you give an example or calculation of what information on a vinyl groove is in the angstrom range?

Consider a recording of a violin playing Middle C at a level 40dB below 5cms/s. It is still recognizable a violin, meaning that the harmonics that give the instrument its character are accurately preserved. Even with the RIAA pre-emphasis, the higher harmonics are going to be be in the sub-micron modulation region.

A general point on the relative costs of the Spiral Groove turntable and the Toyota Camry: the car benefits enormously from the economies of scale. If Camry production was limited to the numbers typical of the turntable, it would probably cost 10x-20x as much.

There are also very different costs of distribution. A car sells for very close to dealer cost, the dealer making his margin on extras like Lo-Jack and service. With the turntable, the sale price is 30-40% higher than dealer cost. So by comparing retail price, you are not comparing like with like.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

BillB
BillB's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 10 months ago
Joined: Aug 15 2007 - 2:04pm

- the Camry has to perform all its duties outside while moving over bumpy and smooth roads, in snow, sun, and rain.
The Camry could probably show some more glistening "engineering" work if it was kept in a climate controlled room under a dust cover and did not need to generate its own electrical power from gasoline.

- if forced to choose, I would take 10 Toyota engineers to design me a turntable than 10 Spiral Groove engineers to build me a car.

- oh yeah, the Camry has a stereo in it, but the SG doesn't throw in a bonus car.

BillB
BillB's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 10 months ago
Joined: Aug 15 2007 - 2:04pm

Slam your Camry one time with a sledgehammer, hard. Everything still works.
With the turntable - there goes your $25K.

BTW, the automotive unintended acceleration is user error (applying the gas when they thought they were pressing the brake). Some may yell about that for a while, but it's true.

michaelavorgna
michaelavorgna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Sep 26 2007 - 5:40pm

I don't have a Camry but my neighbor does so I went over to his house with my sledgehammer, opened his hood and smashed his engine one time, hard. His car no longer starts (and I doubt we'll be getting another Christmas invite).

I also took a pen knife and stuck it in the footer of his Spiral Groove SG1.1 and it still works but when I went back to his Camry, let's just say I hope he has a spare tire. I also brought along an LP and I'll be damned if the Spiral Groove SG1.1 played it perfectly but that other $25,000 piece of junk couldn't.

I'm glad we cleared this mess up.

Welshsox
Welshsox's picture
Offline
Last seen: 12 years 3 months ago
Joined: Dec 13 2006 - 7:27pm

Same old argument

Car is $15,000 worth of material sold for $25,000

Turntable is $1,000 worth of material sold for $25,000

As consumers we will continue to get ripped off until we stop buying over priced bling.

michaelavorgna
michaelavorgna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Sep 26 2007 - 5:40pm

> As consumers we will continue to get ripped off until we stop buying over priced bling.

This "we" you refer to doesn't exist because perceived value is an opinion. Or if you prefer, we do not get to dictate the terms of what constitutes "over priced" for anyone but ourselves. At least not in any meaningful way.

tmsorosk
tmsorosk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 6 months ago
Joined: Dec 5 2010 - 12:34pm

I guess it's all how we look at it , Iv'e purchased many higher end components and never felt ripped off . The long term satisfaction you get is well worth the investment , I can't recall being that satisfied or happy with a car purchase .

paulsax
paulsax's picture
Offline
Last seen: 11 years 5 months ago
Joined: Feb 25 2010 - 3:09pm

Dont think the user can eval the level of engineering work based on what something looks like or their satisfaction. In this case the level needed is so not even close that its not even same planet. Does not say anything bad or good about either product. BTW 102 pico meters is 1.02 angstroms which is about the atomic radii of many elements/ions. If a record player could measure or resolve this the entire atomic force microscopy world just got the pink slip.

interesting discussion though. hope some marketing types are reading. Or maybe I dont!

Log in or register to post comments
-->
  • X