Thank you Stephen for bringing up the topic of "made in China" gear. I myself would not buy audio gear made in China. It's not that it isn't good, but it's my own personal preference that I rather support democratic free countries. As an example, my amp and preamp are made in the USA, my speakers are made in Canada, my turntable is European with a cartridge from the UK etc. I would pay more for gear totally made in democratic countries. And since you mentioned it, I would like to see in your reviews included in the column along with the description of the gear, the country of manufacture. If the product is made of components from various countries, I would like a very short list that tells us where the products components are made and where the final assembly is done. As another example, my speakers are Paradigm Studio 100 v2. I was thinking of buying the v5, until I found out that the cabinets are now made in China. So I changed my mind. I know alot of audiophiles may feel differently but that's how I feel about the topic. Thanks for asking.

It depends. I've seen some very good quality products from China. Some if it branded with American names. Don't blame China. Blame the bottom line.

I would like to know so I can factor this into my purchasing decision. I am motivated to a degree by economic patriotism.

I think the magazine does a superb job in explaining where products are designed and made, including interviews, factory tours, etc.

Personally I tend to stay clear of any China made products. I don't have anything againts the Chinese people, but I do have major problems with the Chinese government. No matter the price... I am aware though, that it's impossible to carry out in real life. Anyone who owns a computer has lost of Chinese components inside it.

What scarpi said.

se

Hi. Since I'm in China right now, judging the International Whistlers Convention and conducting factory tours for this august publication, I do wish to point out that the Apple factory that has been the site of 10 suicides - I think I have that right - is in China. Do you own an iPod or iPhone or Macbook Pro? Where do you think it's being made? Have you chosen to do without Apple products to protest what's happening in China? And do you know that the owners of the factory are actually in Taiwan?

The point I'm driving at is that U.S. corporations choose to manufacture in China to lower costs. So, when you say you won't buy goods made in China because of economic patriotism, you're in effect saying that you will not support U.S. corporations that either manufacture or source their products in China. And since many of those corporations also employ a lot of U.S. workers, you're saying that if a U.S. corporation manufactures in China, you won't support it, U.S. workers and economic interests be damned.

I am not taking a particular point of view. I just wish to point out that this isn't a clear-cut, black and white issue.

jason

Exactly, Jason. We live in a world economy, there is no escaping it.

All of my speaker based stereo is from American manufacturers but I am sure some of the parts were sourced from elsewhere.

I bought a tube headphone amp directly from China. It sounds great and has had zero probs the 3 years I have had it.

I have a friend who imports violin bows from China. Our Govt. benefits twice:
import tax and income tax on the profit.
The bows are comparable to 1,500.00 bows here.

Let's assume the cost is 200 and they sell for 800.

More dollars stay in our economy than go to China.

IIRC. most bows come from Europe not here.

So is there harm in that scenario ?

I currently own 7 classical guitars:

2 American

2 Swedish

2 Romanian

1 from a Russian Israeli who lives in Seattle but is moving back to Israel.
The guitar was made here but who the hell can figure out the true country of origin.
To make it even more bizarre this Russian/Israeli Jew is a christian pastor

It is no surprise the guitar has a complex sound

One could take the view that buying Chinese goods helps to promote democracy.
It helps China build a strong middle class which provides a foundation for the advancement of democratic ideals.

I don't mean this as a criticism of your decision to not buy Chinese goods.
I only wish to point out different perspectives on this issue.

I find any argument that says trying to avoid Chinese products because of X, Y or Z is just naive, well-intentioned though it may be. Right or wrong, we LOST that battle - first with the Japanese years ago, and now China. India isn't far behind.

We basically invented the global free market. These countries rightly saw the benefits and got in the game. At first it was just on price and quality was a distant second (if at all). In the last 20 years China, largely with the conduit of Walmart, became THE place where cheap labor could churn out cheap goods the average family could afford. Meanwhile those same folks were literally buying themselves out of jobs, usually on credit too, and in houses they couldn't afford. But with the free market has come a few democratic/social concessions along with a massive uplifting of hundreds of millions of people the world over. That's not a bad thing by any means. But it hasn't been anything like the gates getting kicked open to social and political freedom like we had hoped. And now we have China competing on quality too. The high-end audio market is of course a drop in the bucket.

Half of EVERYTHING we buy is from China. Your computer screens, TVs, household appliances, printers, car parts, tooling, steel...Look, it's ALL up for grabs now and genie is not going back in the bottle. But optimistically, I'd say it's also a trillion dollar opportunity. All those people who are starting to have real money to spend are going to look to us on how to spend it. They need banking, retail expertise and cool products to be designed and sold back to them. They need (or want) cars and a million other things we take for granted.

But not buy stuff from China? Then where? India? A country with a 3000 yr. old caste system and endemic corruption is any better than communist China? Maybe, but not by much. And their quality is not very good yet either, if you could get it anyway.

This exact conversation happened in the 1980s when we all thought the Japanese were on the verge of taking over the world. Many business schools all said their graduates should be taking Japanese as that would be the new "international" language. Guess it didn't turn out that way. But who today would say "I'm not buying Japanese"? OK- maybe with cars. Maybe. The fact is, in a free market, buying just because it's your home team is not going to work in the long run. quality and price will win. We should know since we pretty much wrote the rule book! Everyone is all about competition and free-market until it's our local factory, or military base, or farmers who aren't doing well. Then suddenly we want exceptions. It really never works very well and often just covers up the problem for the future.

That all being said, we've allowed the Chinese to manipulate the currency for way too long, and should be a lot more aggressive about getting them to be partners than coddling their feelings. But it may almost be too late as lately they've shown that it's not easy to push around the new 800lb gorilla.

Quote:
I find any argument that says trying to avoid Chinese products because of X, Y or Z is just naive, well-intentioned though it may be. Right or wrong, we LOST that battle - first with the Japanese years ago, and now China. India isn't far behind.

We basically invented the global free market. These countries rightly saw the benefits and got in the game. At first it was just on price and quality was a distant second (if at all). In the last 20 years China, largely with the conduit of Walmart, became THE place where cheap labor could churn out cheap goods the average family could afford. Meanwhile those same folks were literally buying themselves out of jobs, usually on credit too, and in houses they couldn't afford. But with the free market has come a few democratic/social concessions along with a massive uplifting of hundreds of millions of people the world over. That's not a bad thing by any means. But it hasn't been anything like the gates getting kicked open to social and political freedom like we had hoped. And now we have China competing on quality too. The high-end audio market is of course a drop in the bucket.

Half of EVERYTHING we buy is from China. Your computer screens, TVs, household appliances, printers, car parts, tooling, steel...Look, it's ALL up for grabs now and genie is not going back in the bottle. But optimistically, I'd say it's also a trillion dollar opportunity. All those people who are starting to have real money to spend are going to look to us on how to spend it. They need banking, retail expertise and cool products to be designed and sold back to them. They need (or want) cars and a million other things we take for granted.

But not buy stuff from China? Then where? India? A country with a 3000 yr. old caste system and endemic corruption is any better than communist China? Maybe, but not by much. And their quality is not very good yet either, if you could get it anyway.

This exact conversation happened in the 1980s when we all thought the Japanese were on the verge of taking over the world. Many business schools all said their graduates should be taking Japanese as that would be the new "international" language. Guess it didn't turn out that way. But who today would say "I'm not buying Japanese"? OK- maybe with cars. Maybe. The fact is, in a free market, buying just because it's your home team is not going to work in the long run. quality and price will win. We should know since we pretty much wrote the rule book! Everyone is all about competition and free-market until it's our local factory, or military base, or farmers who aren't doing well. Then suddenly we want exceptions. It really never works very well and often just covers up the problem for the future.

That all being said, we've allowed the Chinese to manipulate the currency for way too long, and should be a lot more aggressive about getting them to be partners than coddling their feelings. But it may almost be too late as lately they've shown that it's not easy to push around the new 800lb gorilla.

Doug one thing you forgot is that when the Japanese were manufacturing alot of the gear and we were buying it (myself included), they weren't a communist government with a large military and challenging the world's democracies. There are alot of household items made in China that I have no choice in buying, but if I do have a choice I will prefer not to support the Chinese government and finance their military. I think we all have a problem if all of our goods are made in a country that when they can, probably will challenge the USA militarily. If China were a democratic government like Japan, I would not have any problem buying audio gear from them. I have had Marantz and classic Yamaha gear in the past.

Quote:
I find any argument that says trying to avoid Chinese products because of X, Y or Z is just naive, well-intentioned though it may be. Right or wrong, we LOST that battle - first with the Japanese years ago, and now China. India isn't far behind.

We basically invented the global free market. These countries rightly saw the benefits and got in the game. At first it was just on price and quality was a distant second (if at all). In the last 20 years China, largely with the conduit of Walmart, became THE place where cheap labor could churn out cheap goods the average family could afford. Meanwhile those same folks were literally buying themselves out of jobs, usually on credit too, and in houses they couldn't afford. But with the free market has come a few democratic/social concessions along with a massive uplifting of hundreds of millions of people the world over. That's not a bad thing by any means. But it hasn't been anything like the gates getting kicked open to social and political freedom like we had hoped. And now we have China competing on quality too. The high-end audio market is of course a drop in the bucket.

Half of EVERYTHING we buy is from China. Your computer screens, TVs, household appliances, printers, car parts, tooling, steel...Look, it's ALL up for grabs now and genie is not going back in the bottle. But optimistically, I'd say it's also a trillion dollar opportunity. All those people who are starting to have real money to spend are going to look to us on how to spend it. They need banking, retail expertise and cool products to be designed and sold back to them. They need (or want) cars and a million other things we take for granted.

But not buy stuff from China? Then where? India? A country with a 3000 yr. old caste system and endemic corruption is any better than communist China? Maybe, but not by much. And their quality is not very good yet either, if you could get it anyway.

This exact conversation happened in the 1980s when we all thought the Japanese were on the verge of taking over the world. Many business schools all said their graduates should be taking Japanese as that would be the new "international" language. Guess it didn't turn out that way. But who today would say "I'm not buying Japanese"? OK- maybe with cars. Maybe. The fact is, in a free market, buying just because it's your home team is not going to work in the long run. quality and price will win. We should know since we pretty much wrote the rule book! Everyone is all about competition and free-market until it's our local factory, or military base, or farmers who aren't doing well. Then suddenly we want exceptions. It really never works very well and often just covers up the problem for the future.

That all being said, we've allowed the Chinese to manipulate the currency for way too long, and should be a lot more aggressive about getting them to be partners than coddling their feelings. But it may almost be too late as lately they've shown that it's not easy to push around the new 800lb gorilla.

Couldn't agree more, great post.

You're right- there is a big difference between the two countries, but I'd still argue that on balance our economic engagement has done more good than bad for both countries. The other problem though is the whole "ethical buying" standard. Where does it start and stop? How about your gasoline? I'd say Saudi Arabia has an even worse human rights record than modern China; ditto almost every Arab oil producer. And of course that oil goes into numerous plastic products too.

Truly heinous regimes might get some sanctions, like Sudan for instance. But the "merely bad" get nothing but occasional diplomatic suggestions they try a bit harder- if they feel like it. Personally, if we had been engaging and trading with Iran for teh past 20 years instead of isolating I doubt we'd be in the stalemate we're in now. Regimes like that thrive on being in an "us against the world" scenario. Some countries like North Korea wouldn't have it any other way apparently. If North Korea is modeled exactly off of Orwell's 1984 I don't know what is. Now THAT is scary- and truly sad for the people under the boot of their Dear Leader.

But the ones that will engage eventually will need to open up, if anything to keep growing. In the meantime, if we buy their products, I think it's more a vote for future democratic capitalism, than present communism.

Quote:
In the meantime, if we buy their products, I think it's more a vote for future democratic capitalism, than present communism.

For the worlds sake I hope your right!
Don

Quote:

Quote:
In the meantime, if we buy their products, I think it's more a vote for future democratic capitalism, than present communism.

For the worlds sake I hope your right!
Don

Naive perhaps, but I also agree!

Quote:

What are your thoughts on Chinese-made products? What's more important to you: Price or country of manufacture? (Would you be more likely to buy a product made in China if the price is right, or would you rather spend more to buy American-made?) Do you think Stereophile does enough to inform readers of a product's country of origin?

Its a difficult one where I feel there are many factors, some that many consumers never consider and others that have different priorities with different purchasers.
While there are a few good examples of well run factories, there is a lot more negative aspects IMO.
As a case in point here in the UK a couple of well known large furniture chains found that their customers were suffering minor to serious burns on the skin, this was due to the chemicals sprayed onto the furniture to stop molds.
Other cases include toxic chemical and even toxic paints, so there is a case that health and safety can breach western standards quite easily.

From a moral perspective we have the publicised suicides at one of the major manufacturers in China that manufacturer products for Apple,Dell,Sony, and others.
This highlighted how poorly the workers are perceived by these manufacturing plants and would be classified as abuse in any western country.
Most recent development from there;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/28/foxconn-plant-china-deaths-suicides?CMP=AFCYAH

Importantly we also have the financial consequences as mentioned by others.
Personally I am wary about purchasing products that are Made In China, but we need to realise that in many cases it is nearly impossible these days not to buy products shipped from there, and this is annoying if the factors do weigh upon your purchasing decisions.

I am surprised though that the western world does not insist that any goods (may need to specify electronics,etc) that is meant to be sold over here must ensure that the manufacturing plant meets western criteria; both on chemicals/quality of products and also staff salary and working practices.
This would slowly improve the business culture of manufacturing(for those that want to sell to western world) while providing a mechanism for manufacturing to compete natively.

Ah well, can dream anyway.

Cheers
Orb

True story: years ago I was an in-house product designer for a manufacturer that did a great deal of business in China. Once while we were visiting one that also did business with Disney, they explained to my boss that costs were going up because Disney required certain workers rights to be adhered to (like no more 12 hr days without a break to eat and other minimum safety standards). My boss, without a trace of irony said: "But we're NOT like Disney. We don't need all those things. Can't you just set up a section in the factory that runs in the old way so we can keep the costs down?"

As soon as the buying public got used to goods at half the cost as Made in USA all standards and responsibility went out the window. As a nation we value cheap and plentiful over expensive and well-made every time. Look at a house made today over one 50 or especially 100 years ago.

We can go back to US made goods any time you want to pay 3-4 times more for the stuff you buy at Target or Best Buy. Most high-end audio still is US or European and I have to believe some of the cost is how and where it is sourced. Maybe if that $5k speaker wire came out of China we could get it down to a reasonable $999. Heh :0

China is hardly a Communist country. It is a state-run dictatorship in which many corporations have free reign. Now contrast that with the U.S., where election after election goes to the candidate with the biggest bank account and wealthiest corporate backers, and the mantle of moral superiority begins to fade..

No final statements. Just food for thought.

jason in Qingdao, performing tonight at the Concert of Whistling Champions
and blowing neither hot air nor Dixie (though you may disagree)

Hi. Something went wrong with the posting process, so I try again. You only received the last part of my post.

Quote:

Quote:

What are your thoughts on Chinese-made products? What's more important to you: Price or country of manufacture? (Would you be more likely to buy a product made in China if the price is right, or would you rather spend more to buy American-made?) Do you think Stereophile does enough to inform readers of a product's country of origin?

As a case in point here in the UK a couple of well known large furniture chains found that their customers were suffering minor to serious burns on the skin, this was due to the chemicals sprayed onto the furniture to stop molds.
Other cases include toxic chemical and even toxic paints, so there is a case that health and safety can breach western standards quite easily.

From a moral perspective we have the publicised suicides at one of the major manufacturers in China that manufacturer products for Apple,Dell,Sony, and others.
This highlighted how poorly the workers are perceived by these manufacturing plants and would be classified as abuse in any western country.
Most recent development from there;
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/28/foxconn-plant-china-deaths-suicides?CMP=AFCYAH

Importantly we also have the financial consequences as mentioned by others.
Personally I am wary about purchasing products that are Made In China, but we need to realise that in many cases it is nearly impossible these days not to buy products shipped from there, and this is annoying if the factors do weigh upon your purchasing decisions.

I am surprised though that the western world does not insist that any goods (may need to specify electronics,etc) that is meant to be sold over here must ensure that the manufacturing plant meets western criteria; both on chemicals/quality of products and also staff salary and working practices.
This would slowly improve the business culture of manufacturing(for those that want to sell to western world) while providing a mechanism for manufacturing to compete natively.

Ah well, can dream anyway.

Cheers
Orb

Without wishing this post to sound like a personal attack, which it is not, comparing British corporations with Chinese ignores the fact that BP is not only continually putting workers at risk in the U.S., with many poisoned during the clean-up, but is also doing a hideous job of taking responsibility for the mess. At the whistling competition I'm at in China, a fellow judge from the Netherlands complains that companies in his country have extremely valuable oil containment technology that they've offered for the clean-up, but have been ignored. In this age of corporate greed, it's hard to point the finger.

You have to see the signs for KFC, the Starbucks, and, most of all, the huge, half-naked Calvin Klein underwear ad on the side of buildings - oh, let's not forget Louis Vuiton, Gucci, and all the rest - to understand that corporations worldwide are taking advantage of cheap labor and poor worker protections in China. To point the finger at the Chinese, without acknowledging the international corporate complicity in what's happening in China, misses part of what's going on.

Having said that, China is hardly a Communist country. It is a state-run dictatorship in which many corporations have free reign. Now contrast that with the U.S., where election after election goes to the candidate with the biggest bank account and wealthiest corporate backers, and the mantle of moral superiority begins to fade..

No final statements. Just food for thought.

jason in Qingdao, performing tonight at the Concert of Whistling Champions
and blowing neither hot air nor Dixie (though you may disagree)

No need for the caveat I can appreciate your points and they are accurate
BP case is a bloody farce and they deserved to be fined billions, especially when you consider they cheaped out on critical components and never had a deep water plan for problems.
That said, the government under Obama also have a lot to answer for; specifically they should had ensured there was a hefty penalty clause and deep sea disaster scenarios MUST had been tested and QA'd even before permission was given to drill.
Both would had removed the complacency that sadly led to this disaster.
Hopefully in future both of these factors will be considered.

Regarding worker rights, lets be honest that is what governments are there to protect; look back in history to even our own countries.
So while I agree about international company complacency, it should be the western governments that take action to enforce the same rules on electronic goods sold must meet the same criteria as local QA/worker rights/etc.
It would be a logistical nightmare but only way to improve on the current situation, while also making it competitive for western manufacturers.
TBH the same should be applied to service sector that is outsourced to these countries only to be used in western countries.
The rules could work as this would only apply for manufacturing/services directed to western countries so they can still be competitive in developing countries.
However raising the standard for those plants/services directed to western countries would have an effect that eventually would set expectations and a demand for a minimum criteria, which would spread slowly outwards.

Unfortunately China is not the only developing country where the factors being discussed can be applied to as well.
Outside of western government involvement, then it is down to consumers but the effect will be marginal in comparison.

BTW my comment on the furniture companies was that even reputable manufacturers can be caught out by a process being applied/changes in local logistics that even they do not know or consider happening in the manufacturing plants of developing countries.

Cheers
Orb

One of the reasons companies leave California and set up plants in the South or West Virginia and the like is that those states have much weaker environmental controls and labor laws. When a candidate like Meg Whitman, who is running for governor of California, calls for less government, she means more freedom for corporations to do as they please.

The recent U.S. mining disaster was a case of a company willfully ignoring government standards, and the staff of those government agencies charged with their enforcement thoroughly corrupted under years of Bush-era laxity.

The last statement will probably lead to a lot of fur flying, but it's the incontrovertible truth. Obama inherited eight years of things going from bad to worse. How he was supposed to clean up in four years a system in which, to take just the example of the environment, officials were rewarded for lying, scientific studies were either suppressed or falsified, and many employees of integrity were either fired or quit of their own accord, is beyond me. The task was near impossible.

Perhaps one of Obama's biggest errors was not throwing out more people from the old era and replacing them with new. But that would have been very difficult, and led to mass alienation and opposition. My sense is that he honestly tried to work in harmony. Alas, fat chance.

Okay, we're getting deep into politics here, which is not where I want to go. To repeat me bottom line: complex situations are not easily resolved with simple, black and white solutions.

We all need to take responsibility for the mess we're in. After all, we all have a voice. We all talk. We all vote. And we all certainly speak our minds. Many of us have plenty of energy to post 10 or even 20 times a day to this forum alone. God knows how many other forums some of us post to as well. We are free to communicate our thoughts and feelings. There has to be some way to collectively find ourselves out of the mess we're in. The future of the planet, and human life thereon, depends upon it. God knows what the ultimate effects of this devastating oil spill will be on marine life, the oxygen supply of the ocean, and, by extension, the very air we depend upon. It ain't lookin' good.

jason

One bad example of dangerous and unhealthy working conditions, is the ship-breaking industry. The metal is needed, but no one wants the job, so we give it to the poorest people in the world: Bangla Desh.

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?nid=135435

Yeah well caught totally forgot about that.
Cheers
Orb

Totally agree, and like you I feel it is a difficult and complex issue, and as you say we get to vote, hence why governments these days in the western world are more protective (its a fine line) of their voters.
For the consumer its a balance of the moral,quality assurance (including potential toxicity from chemicals/paints in rare events), and financial (in terms of the product and business models that can affect local jobs/products/etc).

Definitely not an easy answer to the OP question

Cheers
Orb

This thread is getting overworked, why don't we all just go and pour an adult beverage and listen to some of our favorite music on our systems. We all have different opinions and each should follow his own path.

Can I please pour an adult glass of Valpolicella Superiore instead?

I try to give the American companies the bulk of my business and do avoid buying Chinese products when possible. But it's a vast grey area.

I guess I'm just an "old school" kinda guy...I prefer buying from the neighborhood brick & mortar vendor. Whether the equipment is produced in the US or elsewhere I'm giving this guy business. Besides, how many audiophile shops exist anymore? There are only three within an hours drive of me. Other than them I'm looking at significant travel time. As others have said, it's a world economy and all these businesses are doing what they can to survive. Are there enough US made items to even fill their shelves? I doubt it. I recall when the Polk company was based in Baltimore and the speakers were even made here in town. No more. Take a guess as to why...economics.

Quote:
I guess I'm just an "old school" kinda guy...I prefer buying from the neighborhood brick & mortar vendor.

Me, too - unless they simply can't get what I am interested in.

I concur with some of the forum members on this issue of Chinese made products and the human rights issues at hand. I personally believe THE best equipment is made in the U.S.A.

Along with America, I would also include Germany,Canada, France, and Denmark in this assessment of Fine audio gear.

Mark Evans

I bow and say thanks

Quote:
I bow and say thanks

Your very welcome.

one word: Gryphon

GREAT! gear. Thank you Mr. Rasmussen

Mark Evans

You'd be in for a good surprise listening to DynAudio speakers!

I don't care where your hat was made. I want it.

It was made in Italy in the 1940'es. It was my grandpa's, but I grabbbed it along with a cupboard when he passed on many years ago. And you're NOT getting it

Hi,

I do have a preference for audio products of NA or European production. But I would be hypocritical to rule out Chinese products, as I am sure I already have many. I can not avoid them. If I have a bias, it's mainly because I do not like the thought of my audio gear made by way of exploitation of any kind, and I do like the thought of it made with a lot of "spirit" behind it. Thought, care, attention, and driven by a genuine love for good sound. Not just profit. Overall, I weigh the balances of a product, and take all things in consideration, but I favor craftsmanship. There are many more good audio products made in the US than China, from what I see.