Speaking of abducted, Struts have been missing for a couple of days.

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I am not at all sure that John Curl ISN'T KBK himself! Just lurking around and looking for signs of regret from those "left behind." Or.. should I say, those not yet abducted?

KBK is everyone at the same time. We are but figments of his imagination.

We all better hope nothing happens to him or we will all disappear.

I will tell you this: 20 minutes talking to KBK over the phone was far more informative than anything here in the last few days. It is sad to have to interact with people with such a child-like view of the real world.

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I will tell you this: 20 minutes talking to KBK over the phone was far more informative than anything here in the last few days. It is sad to have to interact with people with such a child-like view of the real world.

"...to have to interact...?"

There's an easy solution to that problem!

Goodness gracious.

Can someone see if that IP is from Toronto?

Hopefully KBK will be back. He's fun to have around.

this John Curl/KBK love affair..does anyone else find it really, really strange??

I consider KBK a colleague. I also met Brian Kurtz and Mike Rovner as well, by phone today. All interesting people, and I probably now know more about the liquid cables than anyone here. That is what happens when you speak to people with courtesy and interest. Many here seem to be stunted in professional development, more blue collar in attitude than scientific. Brightness of mind does not make an educated person, it just allows one to be educated. Most engineers lack the skills to do research, because of this.

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I consider KBK a colleague. I also met Brian Kurtz and Mike Rovner as well, by phone today. All interesting people, and I probably now know more about the liquid cables than anyone here. That is what happens when you speak to people with courtesy and interest. Many here seem to be stunted in professional development, more blue collar in attitude than scientific. Brightness of mind does not make an educated person, it just allows one to be educated. Most engineers lack the skills to do research, because of this.

More than anyone here?

Then tell us about your listening experience with them! How do they sound?

Be careful, be wary, be cognizant of the audiophile's lament: "If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion." - Ivor Tiefenbrun, founder of Linn

Do you know Ivor? I have used a Linn Sondek since 1974, and have visited him in Scotland. Do you always quote him, or only when it is useful?

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It is sad to have to interact with people with such a child-like view of the real world.

But it is with the eyes of a child that we are open to the wonders of the universe...and in touch with our true selves. The constructs of the adult onset of ego and superego only protect the lizard brain and the fear of loss its protection mechanisms use to block true enlightenment. Haven't you been listening? Does KBK listen to his own trip?

Does he want to bash our retarded egos, while celebrating the importance of his own?

Wait a minute...John Curl... "JC"... Jesus Christ...now I get it. My God has a KBK complex.

Mr. Curl, your seeming obsession with KBK, well, I dont know what to make of it.

and, Sir...while I value your contributions to the world of audio, I am not a fan of folks who come here to bag on those of us who have been here for a while, daily contributors, the "core group"

being called ""blue collar in attitude"" is is an honor(though you didnt mean it as such). . the blue collar folks are the backbone of this country, any country.. another thing im not fond of-- insulting the working class Americans.

You are so thick

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.. Many here seem to be stunted in professional development, more blue collar in attitude than scientific..

You nailed it!

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Hopefully KBK will be back. He's fun to have around.

But how can he be back if he's dead? Or is he both dead and alive at the same time? Was John speaking to KBK or was he really speaking to Michigan Frog? Are KBK and Michigan Frog the same person? Is John really Michigan Frog? Atoms Gone Wild!!

We are all one. We are the World!

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I probably now know more about the liquid cables than anyone here.

Anything that you can share?

How they are made, basic measurement values, etc?

Have you played with them in a system you know or otherwise?

Once when visiting me in Berkeley, Ivor and his right hand man noted that I had REMOVED the fibreboard bottom of the Linn. The associate squawked about it. Ivor decided not to argue with me about it. Should I have instantly replaced the bottom?
Do you know where both Ivor and Dave Fletcher (Sumiko and SOTA) got the prototype of their tone arms, and what they allegedly did to keep the designer from selling any more on his own? Do you know this manufacturer of tone arms?
Buddha, I listened to YOUR set of cables at 'The Show' is that enough?

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Buddha, I listened to YOUR set of cables at 'The Show' is that enough?

Plenty, other than the craziness of KBK's death and resurrection, we are on the same side.

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I probably now know more about the liquid cables than anyone here.

Anything that you can share?

How they are made, basic measurement values, etc?

Have you played with them in a system you know or otherwise?

I guess some explanations are easier to buy into than others.

When competent third parties listen, measure, and evaluate a cable, I take note.

Exactly.

Thus my questions.

Buddha, before confronting me about this, perhaps you should look at the word 'consider' in the dictionary, as I used it to preface my position on his disappearance. If you had, then you and I would not be having this conversation.

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When competent third parties listen, measure, and evaluate a cable, I take note.

Of course, it should be pointed out that those endeavors, as noble as they may be, have very little to do, if anything, with explanations.

~ Cheers

With all the ----- about cable capacitance, I asked someone who actually measured it. It is about 1/2 of normal low capacitance cables. An AMAZING number.

Rvance, I can identify with your position. I, too, come from a blue collar upbringing and most of my friends went into the trades. You know: bricklayers, electricians, floorlayers, barbers, etc. I went a different way, but I do have that psychological background in me.
You apparently are very bright, but you CAN'T go to school easily. I was the same way, and I suffered for it. However, the difference between you and me, is that I became EDUCATED along the way, and not just TRAINED in my occupation. That is what normal college is supposed to give you, above and beyond training. That takes: History, philosophy, psychology, language development, including English, etc. That is WHY these courses are added to a general college requirement. This is what makes an EDUCATED person from only a TRAINED person. Technicians are TRAINED, engineers too, for the most part. Physicists have a chance to be educated more easily, because they are not allowed to skip the EDUCATION part of their schooling.

>>> "Do you know where both Ivor and Dave Fletcher (Sumiko and SOTA) got the prototype of their tone arms, and what they allegedly did to keep the designer from selling any more on his own? Do you know this manufacturer of tone arms?" <<<

Was that the person who made the Syrinx tone arm ? I have temporarily forgotten his name !! Long time ago !! But, if I remember part of the story, he was pretty upset !!

Regards,
May Belt,
P.W.B. Electronics.

It was early in the 1980s, whilst we were investigating Ivor's claim that "passive speakers, when present in the room where other speakers were being played, had an adverse effect on the sound" that we made some of our major discoveries !!!!!

John, I have just been re-reading Douglas Self's article "The Precision preamplifier" in Wireless World October 1983 - where he ends his article with :-
>>> "Some enthisuasts will be anxious to (a) use gold plated connectors; (b) by-pass all electrolytics with non-polarised types; or (c) remove all coupling capacitirs altogether, in the pursuit of an underfinable musicality. Options (a) and (b) are pointless and expensive and (c) while cheap, may be dangerous to the health of your loudspeakers. Anyone wishing to dispute these points should arm themselves with objective evidence and a stamped, addrerssed envelope " <<<

And, I have also re-read Self's article ""Science v subjectivism in audio engineering" - also in Wireless World.
To give various quotes from it :-
>>> "Those pursuing the correspondence on 'capacitor sound' in the letters section of this journal and others will know that, having studied the subject from the viewpoints of electronic design, psychoacoustics and my own humble musical efforts, my own view is one of scepticism towards most of the subjective hypotheses. (Throughout this article I shall use the word 'hypothesis' in it's proper sense as an idea or supposition which has no necessary connection with the truth !!)" <<<

Self goes on, after criticising Paul Messenger's "Subjective Sounds" column in Hi Fi News September 1976, :-

>>> "Jean Hiraga was back again in August 1977 with a highly contentious set of claims about audible speaker cables, and after that no hypothesis was too unlikely to receive attention. " <<<

33 years later !!! The same dismissive reaction to the claims that 'different cables can sound different' is still happening !!

And more from D Self :-

>>> "A touching lack of faith in cables is widespread, but it can be said with confidence that there is as yet not a shred of evidence to support it. Any piece of wire passes a sinewave with unmeasurable distortion, and so simple notions of inter-crystal rectification can be discounted, quite apart from the fact that such behaviour is absolutely ruled out by materials science. No plausible means of detecting, let alone measuring, cable degradation has ever been proposed." <<<

Still the same today - NO desire to investigate further what people claim to be able to hear !!

Progress (people being able to change) is not impossible, John, only impossible with some people !!

Once some people have progressed through (and can get to grips with) what I call "a series of clues" then they are very close to achieving progress. And it does not make any difference whether it is in the area of audio, or in the area of medicine or in the area of Bee Keeping and Honey Blending !!!! Because it is a state of mind, nothing to do with intelligence.

The first "clue" is observing an anomaly - observing something happening which cannot be explained from within the conventional theory of that time. Some people just cannot get past that first stage (clue) to the next stage - investigating - looking for further 'clues'!! In the case of audio, the fear of coming out from under their 'comfort blanket' is greater than their desire to have better 'sound' !!!! So they stay at the first 'clue' and do not venture any further !!
Regards,
May Belt,
P.W.B. Electronics.

May, it was the Breuer tone arm, still made in Switzerland.

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Was that the person who made the Syrinx tone arm ?

May, it was the Breuer tone arm, still made in Switzerland.

The Syrinx arm was designed by Scott Strachan. Scott was also the first to expose me to piezoelectric film, which I use for speaker cabinet resonance meaurements. He also made some superb recordings, then disappeared off the face of the planet around 1985.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Buddha, before confronting me about this, perhaps you should look at the word 'consider' in the dictionary, as I used it to preface my position on his disappearance. If you had, then you and I would not be having this conversation.

OK, let's Clintonize your use of the word "consider."

Quote John Curl: "He has been threatened before. He still has not answered my e-mail. IF I hear no response from him, I will consider him dead, just like my old friend Jon Iverson."

Quote John Curl:

Buddha, you mixed two quotes from me, together. They implied different things. In one case, I had presumed that KBK was banned, as have been so many, here, and I did not want to follow in his footsteps. In the other quote, I had genuine concern for KBK's physical health. Two different things. But in the sum of it all: UP YOURS! Meant in the best blue collar way that it can be expressed. Now, if you want to play in the dirt, OK, but don't get condescending with me, if you value your image.

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Buddha, you mixed two quotes from me, together. They implied different things. In one case, I had presumed that KBK was banned, as have been so many, here, and I did not want to follow in his footsteps. In the other quote, I had genuine concern for KBK's physical health. Two different things. But in the sum of it all: UP YOURS! Meant in the best blue collar way that it can be expressed. Now, if you want to play in the dirt, OK, but don't get condescending with me, if you value your image.

"He has been threatened before. He still has not answered my e-mail. IF I hear no response from him, I will consider him dead, just like my old friend Jon Iverson."

You can use Google and do a dictionary search for "consider," as was your chief etymologic concern a few moments ago.

I will 'suppose' him dead? 'Oxford American Dictionary'

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With all the ----- about cable capacitance, I asked someone who actually measured it. It is about 1/2 of normal low capacitance cables. An AMAZING number.

This is interesting.

I am always surprised how much capacitance varies, even among different topologies of mic cable. My impression is that this is a sensitive parameter, influenced by the interplay of many things.

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I will 'suppose' him dead? 'Oxford American Dictionary'

Yeah, that's what you intended!

Even said that way, you think you'd have been making a reasonable "assumption."

I suppose you are incapable of saying, "That was a little bit of an over-reaction on my part."

Now, not to worry you, but, as someone mentioned, Struts hasn't been around for a day or two. Do you 'suppose' he's dead?

How exactly did a thread that started out as an obviously tongue in cheek declaration become a paranoid pissing contest? John my friend, you just need to lighten up. Being wound so tight won't lead to abduction- government, alien, or otherwise, but it WILL take the fun out of life I can assure you! Is this what happens when you start taking yourself and each and every conspiratorial rumor as reality? How do you even enjoy listening to music if it all seems to add up to something dark and secret?

The whole conspiracy...hmmm, um "cult" seems oddly close to what religious fanatics become. Everything is the unseen work of superior forces. A battle of good and evil, with darkness constantly around the corner---and of course only the Faithful know the REAL truth. The world CAN be a dangerous, strange place, but much less in the Davinci Code way, and a lot more in the mundane, random and banal way bad things/people happen.

I'd worry a lot more about what the local drug dealer is up to than how the NSA is listening to know if you "know too much" about physics. Not very exciting is it? Bummer

Parser.

Quiet kid, I'm having fun.

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Parser.

Dissimulator.

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Rvance, I can identify with your position. I, too, come from a blue collar upbringing and most of my friends went into the trades. You know: bricklayers, electricians, floorlayers, barbers, etc. I went a different way, but I do have that psychological background in me.
You apparently are very bright, but you CAN'T go to school easily. I was the same way, and I suffered for it. However, the difference between you and me, is that I became EDUCATED along the way, and not just TRAINED in my occupation. That is what normal college is supposed to give you, above and beyond training. That takes: History, philosophy, psychology, language development, including English, etc. That is WHY these courses are added to a general college requirement. This is what makes an EDUCATED person from only a TRAINED person. Technicians are TRAINED, engineers too, for the most part. Physicists have a chance to be educated more easily, because they are not allowed to skip the EDUCATION part of their schooling.

john, The "blue collar" comments were made by ncdrawl, not me.

So I guess the assumptions expressed about me and my "training" and lack of "education" were just wild shots in the dark, huh?

You also are extremely confident in your ability to evaluate the intellectual history of others based on forum comments. That is some spectacular "education" you have.

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How exactly did a thread that started out as an obviously tongue in cheek declaration become a paranoid pissing contest? John my friend, you just need to lighten up. Being wound so tight won't lead to abduction- government, alien, or otherwise, but it WILL take the fun out of life I can assure you! Is this what happens when you start taking yourself and each and every conspiratorial rumor as reality? How do you even enjoy listening to music if it all seems to add up to something dark and secret?

The whole conspiracy...hmmm, um "cult" seems oddly close to what religious fanatics become. Everything is the unseen work of superior forces. A battle of good and evil, with darkness constantly around the corner---and of course only the Faithful know the REAL truth. The world CAN be a dangerous, strange place, but much less in the Davinci Code way, and a lot more in the mundane, random and banal way bad things/people happen.

I'd worry a lot more about what the local drug dealer is up to than how the NSA is listening to know if you "know too much" about physics. Not very exciting is it? Bummer

I'm telling Opus Dei on you.

This just in...

Is KBK involved in this web?

KBK Connection?

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Quiet kid, I'm having fun.

Just his idiosyncratic way of apologizing, amigo. No worries.

Speak for yourself, Buddha! Don't get 'intellectual' with me!

Sorry, Rvance, I was just trying to justify your previous insults toward me. Perhaps, I stand corrected.

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Speak for yourself, Buddha! Don't get 'intellectual' with me!

No, I'll keep it to your level.

(That was just goofing off. It was too good a straight line, which you can now claim to have known in advance.)

OK.

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I can identify with your position. I, too, come from a blue collar upbringing and most of my friends went into the trades. You know: bricklayers, electricians, floorlayers, barbers, etc.

I have a degree in vocal performance, and am currently working on a degree in linguistics(focus on Arabic Studies)..so you made a false assumption about me..not that I place any more weight on someone who has "book sense" over those who have "common sense"(much more important),,hell, in many ways, I feel I became dumber once I got my "education".. did you know your friend KBK...He isnt "educated" either. If I recall correctly, he was a high school dropout. How does that sit with you, Mr. Curl?

jc, we see your claims indicating your superior intelligence, education, etc. OK, that may be true - but I haven't seen evidence of that in your postings on this thread so far. You've been bested by Buddha in logic and language, messed up who you are replying to, etc. Aside from your own self-assertions, will you be adding anything solid that we can grab onto?

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Sorry, Rvance, I was just trying to justify your previous insults toward me. Perhaps, I stand corrected.

No insult was ever intended. When you came into our forum I commented it was like having Clint Eastwood drop in on a film appreciation class. ncdrawl said you were one of his heroes. Buddha was thrilled you attended his little party.

This is affirmation and respect, sir!

But we do respond with some trepidation to pity for KBK. We have endured unspeakable crimes against the cause of reason, perspective and humility at his hand. The history of his posts are rife with self-adulation, gratuitous ego and weary contempt for the rabble he must tolerate for his art.

Personally, I'm cool with the whole cosmic-consciousness, quantuum mysticism, chaos universe he inhabits. I live there, too. We just disagree on who created it.

KBK never gives credits or references. As if the whole wisdom of the universe from the pre-Gnostics to String Theory spontaneously erupted from his casual musings and childhood recollections.

It's just too fucking much to let slide!

Sorry to have let you down Bill. By the way did you look up the two words? Do you know the precise difference between them?