I mentioned a little while back that the Teo cables were reviewed over here in the UK, where they are not pushed or even known that well.
They were reviewed by Paul Miller who IMO is pretty level headed and one of the better journalist/editors (up there with JA).
Of course, now he has reviewed expensive cables I am sure some will use this as an excuse to bash Paul, however bear in mind Paul is pretty unimpressed with most cabling manufacturers and his comments in the case of the Teo are balanced by caveat.

Anyway the review has been posted so usefully you can make up your own mind about the cables.
http://www.amplitune.co.uk/liquidcable/teohfn.pdf

Interesting read.
Cheers
Orb

Quote:
"We drive 200 miles and we are in Germany or Italy or Spain or whatever"

or, they drive 200 miles and Germany is in you.

grosse, guess its a good thing we "barbarians" helped you out with your little german problem a few years ago.

tc

ha! CLASSIC

Quote:
I know those countries well
I much prefer Portugal to Spain
It is like black and white

As for the food I don't how you can say that Spanish food is better than French although their appetizers can be good.
They eat of snacks just like you.

Le gateau Basque is a french recipe
Spago had it when they had a french in house patissier

Actually the vascos are the best chefs of both France and Spain.
Their region encompasses southern France and northern Spain.

The French find it hard to accept that their best cooking came from the vascos.

Portugal is lovely and is comparable to Spain, certainly not better.
Of course, both are far superior to France.

Geoff

Totally wrong

I have no interest in DIY, i have been working with electronics for 30 years and specifically in audio systems for 15 years. The difference is that i dont make hifi, im just the guy who does not understand how a Crown amplifier mae on exactly the same line a sa Mark Levinson costs $1,000 yet the Mark Levinson costs $10,000, its same manufacturing process, using the same quality of parts, the only difference is the shiny box.

No point starting the cost of hifi argument up again

Alan

Quote:
...im just the guy who does not understand how a Crown amplifier mae on exactly the same line a sa Mark Levinson costs $1,000 yet the Mark Levinson costs $10,000, its same manufacturing process, using the same quality of parts, the only difference is the shiny box.

I knew we'd finally agree on something: You are the guy that does not understand.

So, you're a cable naysayer AND an amp naysayer? Cool!

Crown and Levinson made on the same production line? Where?

> I know those countries well

???

> As for the food I don't how you can say that Spanish food
> is better than French although their appetizers can be
> good.

From this we can assume you have not lived in Spain and France for any length of time?

This thread smells like the liquid cable thread that got locked after it drifted off topic.

> This thread smells like the liquid cable thread that got
> locked after it drifted off topic.

From this we can also assume that you have not lived in Spain or France for any length of time?

Quote:
> This thread smells like the liquid cable thread that got
> locked after it drifted off topic.

From this we can also assume that you have not lived in Spain or France for any length of time?

great, another grossefatigue sockpuppet
I have, goddamn it. both Spanish and french food tastes like hot dog ass.

Greek+Lebanese== heaven

What's it to you, Buddha? Got anything useful to contribute?

NC

Lets get this straight

American Pizza - great
American Steak ( from the north ) - Great
American Beer - Piss
British food - crap
Brtish beer - great
British Curry - best food in the world
French anything - SHIT !!
Spanish anything - to much oil and garlic

Alan

Quote:
Geoff

Totally wrong

I have no interest in DIY, i have been working with electronics for 30 years and specifically in audio systems for 15 years. The difference is that i dont make hifi, im just the guy who does not understand how a Crown amplifier mae on exactly the same line a sa Mark Levinson costs $1,000 yet the Mark Levinson costs $10,000, its same manufacturing process, using the same quality of parts, the only difference is the shiny box.

No point starting the cost of hifi argument up again

Alan

Alan if you make such a statement you need to back it up as this is basically an accusation against a manufacturer.
So as JC asked, mind sharing where and what ML product, or in fact the point of reference this information came from.

Thanks
Orb

Quote:
NC

Lets get this straight

American Pizza - great
American Steak ( from the north ) - Great
American Beer - Piss
British food - crap
Brtish beer - great
British Curry - best food in the world
French anything - SHIT !!
Spanish anything - to much oil and garlic

Alan

yep. although I dont eat meat so i cant speak to that.

Greek food+lebanese+indian==tastegasm

Yep I do, I find it interesting discussing the scientific research now and again in open bar along with certain philosophy; religion,evolution,physics in terms of the universe, weather patterns and global warming,etc.
Obviously those threads never interest you, but I have avoided them last month anyway.

But, and this is a big but...
This is an audio forum so I would expect the majority of my posts to relate to....
Audio

Cheers
Orbs

Orb

The point of reference is me walking around the factory looking at it.

Crown has one of the most sophisticated amplifier manufacturering lines in the world.

They also have a kick ass lsitneing room

Alan

Ah k,
so this is something you saw yourself and they were on the same manufacturing line?
Just curious which factory was this?

It could be the same as saying Cabasse speakers are crap as they are made by Canon manufacturing line-plant.
So while Canon build the speakers its not using parts associated with cameras or printers
Sorry couldnt resist that last bit hehe.

But seriously, you actually saw the product of both ML and Crown on the same manufacturing line or same building/plot?
Definitely interesting to know where this was as its something worth digging into and finding out what products are identical between them.
Especially when you consider who owns ML these days.
Same company who also owns the dreaded oppo bluray based player, but in this case my understanding is that they receive the whole product and no sharing of identical manufacturing line.

Thanks
Orb

Ok digging deeper.
I never knew this but Crown Audio is also owned by the Harman International group, just like ML.

So I do think its natural they share the same manufacturing plant, the question is do they share the same line in that plant and same components/design layout.

Cheers
Orb

Quote:
Ok digging deeper.
I never knew this but Crown Audio is also owned by the Harman International group, just like ML.

So I do think its natural they share the same manufacturing plant, the question is do they share the same line in that plant and same components/design layout.

Cheers
Orb

Absolutely. Think General Motors. You can buy Chevrolet or GMC. You are getting the same damn thing under the hood.

This is indeed possible, then. Kind of like a Chevy motor in a Caddy. Wasn't always that way, but these things happen. HK would be at fault for this. The middle managers decided that image is everything, engineering is little or nothing. At least subtle engineering. I am sure the Crown engineers are very competent to design textbook designs.

Quote:

Quote:
Ok digging deeper.
I never knew this but Crown Audio is also owned by the Harman International group, just like ML.

So I do think its natural they share the same manufacturing plant, the question is do they share the same line in that plant and same components/design layout.

Cheers
Orb

Absolutely. Think General Motors. You can buy Chevrolet or GMC. You are getting the same damn thing under the hood.

Well the motor industry is so messed up even competing manufacturers share basic platforms at times to reduce costs.
I doubt we will have to wait too many more years until we see a similar collapse in this industry as we did banking.

Cheers
Orb

Orb

The plant is in Elkhart Indiana

Im not sure which exact models i saw.

On the same principle ive toured the Sandy Utah facility which also makes the Lexicon products in the same facility as the DBX range of kit.

The point i always come back to is the extremely high cost of hifi products is just not justified in the majority of cases. There are always exceptions but from my viewpoint ( 30 years with electronics and audio ) i see more technical development and sophistication in modern pro audio amps and control equipmnet than i do in hifi. In my real life I manage a business that uses contract manufacturing and it is not that expensive. The whole argument about the cost being due to the effort to make it sound good is stupid, every product made by every company in every market has to have development cost to ensure its fit for purpose.

Once again im not in the school of wanting everything for nothing, i understand people need to make a living and that the volumes are small in the hifi world but as we say in our industry dont try and retire of every job. If say an amplifier has $500 worth of burdened manufacturing cost a reasonable selling point in the commercial world would be $1000 before it went into the distribution channel, so probably about $1500-$2000 to the end user. In hifi i can understand needing higher gross margins on the manufacturing side so say $2000 into distibution which is 75% net margin ( great for any business ) that would result in a retail price of say $3500. This seems fair, if hifi was priced like this it would seem perfectly good value, as i keep on pointing out it is not, the hifi people charge as much as they possibly can get away with, the poster boy for this being the LARS amp which at $100,000 uses the same off the shelf commercial transformer that we put into a far more sophisticated and powerful class D amp that sells for 1% of the Lars price.

The real thing that sticks in my throat and im sure you can rewind to several threads ive made this comment is that the relative pricing of hifi is out of control, the prices are getting silly and it just seems as if consumers are allowing it to happen. The magazines are driving this and the lemmings are following

Alan

You are right for some products but not all high end.
Chord Electronics sell their higher end amps in the pro world, but the design is slightly different with a fan and possible not to be purchased from dealers.
Also I bet the support/warranty structure is different as I know legally here in the UK consumers are more protected than business buyers.

But to give an idea of cost.
The SPM1200E costs around

Orb

To use your maths

A 4,000 cost product is sold for 16,000, the maths is correct and typical. My point is why should a dealer make all the margin ? The reason that dealers are going under left and right is not the lack of business its the greed. The world is buying more hifi than ever, yet dealers are closing, why ? I understand that argumenst about cost of a showroom etc but again why is this so expensive in Hifi compared to other industries. Jewellers dont seem to be closing because people want to touch/see the product, most people are perfectly happy to pay 5-10% over the online price to deal with a local store, they are not happy to pay 20-40% more though

Alan

The dealer's margin is the 8k buy from manufacturer and 16k sell to cusomer, the 4k cost to 8k sell is manufacturer margin.
Then they allow for haggling up to say 10-15% off depending on customer, so now thats down to 40%.

These business probably exist due to loans to get stock, add in the cost of interest on loan and payback, then add staff cost,business rates,accountants,advertising,selling ex-demo to keep modern and new models,etc the net profit margin is radically different and much lower.
Also lets not forget the cost for setting up just in terms of the builing; letting charge, creating demo rooms, fixture and fitting shop - building work,etc.
If it was that easy why arent we all high end dealers.
Of course I appreciate manufacturers also try to regulate the price, but if prices on the dealer side went too competitve to lure customers from other regions that is a lot of business failing (same happened in the PC selling world where now its mostly a few large or direct selling).

I do think the key is for both us as consumers and magazines to highlight and emphasise the more competitive high end products, and that maybe your point.
But what is the ceiling for such components.

Edit:
Regarding your jewellery comparison, there are cheap jewellers and then high end.
You will never see high end cheap online, if it is the question is where did they come from.

In a way I would say jewellery reflects audio world quite well.
The mass market cheaper products, quality made medium priced items, high end that can be best quality or prestige orientated and require you to ring a bell to gain access to the shop, or even require an appointment.

But if you really think its bad for a manufacturer to have a 50%margin and also a dealer to have 50% margin, work out the costs of running a business and bear in mind what I mentioned about manufacturing in Telecoms as an example where the profit margin is 60(minimum) to 68% on a product.
TBH I would never consider creating a dealership, far better profit margins in a bakery.
I would be interested if someone put together a business plan to show how low a profit margin is viable to make it worthwhile to be an audio dealer.
This may explain why there are many dealers now focusing on the low to mid priced gear for both audio and AV as this is mass market, and not bothering with high end or just a very minor token effort.

Thanks
Orb

Quote:
The real thing that sticks in my throat and im sure you can rewind to several threads ive made this comment is that the relative pricing of hifi is out of control, the prices are getting silly and it just seems as if consumers are allowing it to happen. The magazines are driving this and the lemmings are following

Alan

I think you need to also look at the other end of the market, before you draw conclusions: Look at the massive success brands like Odyssey Audio, Oppo and Emotiva are having... At one end you have manufacturers pushing state of the art gear aimed solely at the extremely wealthy, while at the other you have these small factory direct brands who aim to reproduce genuine high end sound for truly affordable prices...

I don't think anything is out of control, I'm sure we'll continue to see more factory direct brands popping up (members on my regular HiFi forum [including me, recently] regularly buy gear from those brands)... So yes, Lars will produce some $100K Luxury Amp aimed at Bill Gates, Oprah or some other suitably rich individual, but some boutique brand will attempt to recreate that quality and sell for $5K factory direct online... That is where the market is going... I think what we'll see is the continuing decline of the middle-man (retailers)....

Orb, you are RIGHT ON, in your pricing. I would quibble about a few extra charges, such as shipping and REP costs, but you KNOW WHERE THE BEAR SITS.
Personally, over my relatively long life, I have done hi end audio retail, audio design, pro design, audio manufacture, share a space with a speaker manufacturer, and finally a consultant (for just about everybody, one time or another) but for now, with 2 companies, one of them being Parasound. The Parasound model is almost exactly what you put out. At least to me, it is: Design it, make it, test and box it for 1/4 the price. Advertise it, distribute it, warranty it, modify it, etc, for 1/4 the price, and then shipping, rep, and dealer percentage, the final 50%. If I make my own designs and sell them to dealers directly, they get a 40% discount, slightly more if they buy more than one. This appears to be normal and necessary.

Thanks for the heads up there JC, good to hear about this from you.

Cheers
Orb

Ajani

I agree the 3 brands you mention are great products, but the issue is that they are all factory direct.

Very shortly we are going to be in a position where hifi is mail order only, its going to seriously limit the growth of the industry.

I still do not understand why hifi stores are so expensive to run compared to other stores, it seems more logical to me that they are selling less and less so they need to make more and more margin on each peice. How do we reverse the trend ? get hifi shops back to shifting larger volumes at more sensible prices ?or is the hifi shop officially a dying species ? I certainly hope not because the whole industry will follow.

Alan

Alan I think your looking at this without weighing up all the facts.
Hifi audio dealers will always exist selling mass market with them focused at both audio and AV, mass market could be up even mid price range products say

Grosse Fatigue, I think that you have too many opinions about things that you have little or no experience with. Sorry to tell you that, but there it is.

Froggie

My rugby league team Warrington are having a great start to the season, do you think Wigan will stay the course or will they fade away ? also Leeds havent started well is that a blip ?

Alan

Quote:
....I think today a store has to attract video aficionados first, then try to interest them and educate, ease them into high end audio. None of the mass market stores show high end front projectors for example....

Heh just like to point out one of those high end stores I mentioned that is doing well due to being a one-stop dealer for all a customer's needs now and in future by selling mass market Denon/Yamaha/etc and then up to high end

Quote:

I think also that audio magazines are not doing their job. Reviewers are being shoved with equipment at deep discounts and never focus on value. B&W 802 is better and half the price of a Wilson Watt. We never read about it, of course.

www.high-endaudio.com

And now we go full circle, it still seems you have not noticed the argument manipulation and bias of that site.
Others tried to mention this to you as well Grosse.

I find it surprising that you argue the case that the cause of some problems relate to the process of magazine reviews,etc by using a deeply flawed online website that is using misleading points.

JA has already gone over several times the process of ownership, I have seen other publication editor's such as Paul Miller also patiently explain this in same way as JA.

I am sure there are bad apples in the industry in terms of reviewers and other personel (I personally think it can be seen who they are as the way they review and defend themselves makes it way eventually to forums), but that is true of ANY business.

The thing with bias is that it makes it impossible for someone to take both sides of an argument to weigh their decision, I am sorry but you seem so fixed with the use of flawed/bias site to make the case as if everything about the audio industry in terms of review and publications is bad.

This is just simply wrong, case of point do you still purchase X amount of different publications every month to base that decision?
Do you know how many pages on average in say 3 different publications are adverts by dealers and distributors compared to manufacturers?
I do as I make the point of reading 5 different publications a month (need something to read when on the toilet hahahaha ), there are excellent publications and others that are good or poor (only one I feel is really dire and of course we then have the individuals who also may buck the system).

Thats my take anyway and I am pretty sure neither of us will change our minds

Cheers
Orb

Quote:

Quote:
....I think today a store has to attract video aficionados first, then try to interest them and educate, ease them into high end audio. None of the mass market stores show high end front projectors for example....

Heh just like to point out one of those high end stores I mentioned that is doing well due to being a one-stop dealer for all a customer's needs now and in future by selling mass market Denon/Yamaha/etc and then up to high end

It is because they sell reference speakers with the reference AV, seriously that is the trend for them.
They do open days showing both audio and video and the interest is in both.

I cannot answer how this affects amps sales for them as never discussed that with the dealers I know, probably as you say there is a split here for those still interested in dedicated audio.

Maybe market behaviour is different for good dealers here to say US.
BTW even the middle range chain stores here in UK are selling-focusing high end speakers with both audio or video consumers.
Not mega bucks but as an example Platinum range from Monitor Audio,Kef ref 2s,etc.

The point worth remembering is that while a consumer may purchase a dedicated AV and audio system, they will still potentially purchase one set of reference speakers and either a reference AV or stereo amp to go with them.
It does not matter to the dealer as the customer has purchased a high-endish speaker and amp (whether focused audio or home theater), a different customer could set the priority different for audio to video so it balances out.

So dealer does not need to sell both high end AV and audio to the same customer, just as long as the option is there for other customers who visit on the path they want to take.

Cheers
Orb

Quote:
It is because they sell reference speakers with the reference AV, seriously that is the trend for them.
They do open days showing both audio and video and the interest is in both.

I cannot answer how this affects amps sales for them as never discussed that with the dealers I know, probably as you say there is a split here for those still interested in dedicated audio.

Maybe market behaviour is different for good dealers here to say US.
BTW even the middle range chain stores here in UK are selling-focusing high end speakers with both audio or video consumers.
Not mega bucks but as an example Platinum range from Monitor Audio,Kef ref 2s,etc.

The point worth remembering is that while a consumer may purchase a dedicated AV and audio system, they will still potentially purchase one set of reference speakers and either a reference AV or stereo amp to go with them.
It does not matter to the dealer as the customer has purchased a high-endish speaker and amp (whether focused audio or home theater), a different customer could set the priority different for audio to video so it balances out.

So dealer does not need to sell both high end AV and audio to the same customer, just as long as the option is there for other customers who visit on the path they want to take.

Cheers
Orb

Oh, I don't dispute that the video customers purchase "reference" speakers - but not because they care about the sound or know what "reference sound" even is particularly. It's because they don't wish to scrimp on speakers and dilute the "reference" nature of their video system, from an appearance perspective. I contend that video customers are not audiophiles, thus have a limited interest in the pursuit of sound quality. Also, that videophiles don't seem too interested in video quality as a Quest, not like the quest for sound by audiophiles. Strictly plug an' play.

Quote:

Quote:
It is because they sell reference speakers with the reference AV, seriously that is the trend for them.
They do open days showing both audio and video and the interest is in both.

I cannot answer how this affects amps sales for them as never discussed that with the dealers I know, probably as you say there is a split here for those still interested in dedicated audio.
In other words the dealer is still selling high end to a customer, whether it be AV or audio quality focus and the speakers link to both, as seen by the push from medium level chains with reference speakers.

Maybe market behaviour is different for good dealers here to say US.
BTW even the middle range chain stores here in UK are selling-focusing high end speakers with both audio or video consumers.
Not mega bucks but as an example Platinum range from Monitor Audio,Kef ref 2s,etc.

The point worth remembering is that while a consumer may purchase a dedicated AV and audio system, they will still potentially purchase one set of reference speakers and either a reference AV or stereo amp to go with them.
It does not matter to the dealer as the customer has purchased a high-endish speaker and amp (whether focused audio or home theater), a different customer could set the priority different for audio to video so it balances out.

So dealer does not need to sell both high end AV and audio to the same customer, just as long as the option is there for other customers who visit on the path they want to take.

Cheers
Orb

Oh, I don't dispute that the video customers purchase "reference" speakers - but not because they care about the sound or know what "reference sound" even is particularly. It's because they don't wish to scrimp on speakers and dilute the "reference" nature of their video system, from an appearance perspective. I contend that video customers are not audiophiles, thus have a limited interest in the pursuit of sound quality. Also, that videophiles don't seem too interested in video quality as a Quest, not like the quest for sound by audiophiles. Strictly plug an' play.

But what is the point in trying argue such a differentiation?
It has no affect on the good audio store because as I said they now cater to customers who are interested in dedicated audio quality or video quality or even both,

Also I think its a bit much of an assumption to say that an average consumer who has to save cash to purchase speakers such as the Platinums or Ref2s do not care about the sound unless they are an audiophile (IMO this term is becoming redundant and not a reflection of todays society and listening behaviour).
Those with cash to spare may just purchase blindly/indifferently with the advice from a dealer, but there are many with seriously expensive systems who are passionate.
Such as a nice forum poster on another site who owns B&W snails as a 5.1 system, the amps alone on such a setup is eye watering in price.
Or Oneobgyn (another forum poster) who also has an eye watering priced system that is also a multi-channel setup and is passionate about audio and video.

But, and this is important.
Most people purchase a product to enjoy what they watch or listen to, meaning there is a level of interest.
Again this is what I have seen (I admit this is limited in scope due to the number of dealers I know and visit time to time).

The key for most is enjoyment, and that means a level of interest in the system and the sound-visual, irrespective of the audiophile category of old.
As can be seen by the hundreds who attend special open days at good dealers showing quality audio and video.
Thats my take anyway

Thanks
Orb

Quote:

Quote:
It is because they sell reference speakers with the reference AV, seriously that is the trend for them.
They do open days showing both audio and video and the interest is in both.

I cannot answer how this affects amps sales for them as never discussed that with the dealers I know, probably as you say there is a split here for those still interested in dedicated audio.

Maybe market behaviour is different for good dealers here to say US.
BTW even the middle range chain stores here in UK are selling-focusing high end speakers with both audio or video consumers.
Not mega bucks but as an example Platinum range from Monitor Audio,Kef ref 2s,etc.

The point worth remembering is that while a consumer may purchase a dedicated AV and audio system, they will still potentially purchase one set of reference speakers and either a reference AV or stereo amp to go with them.
It does not matter to the dealer as the customer has purchased a high-endish speaker and amp (whether focused audio or home theater), a different customer could set the priority different for audio to video so it balances out.

So dealer does not need to sell both high end AV and audio to the same customer, just as long as the option is there for other customers who visit on the path they want to take.

Cheers
Orb

Oh, I don't dispute that the video customers purchase "reference" speakers - but not because they care about the sound or know what "reference sound" even is particularly. It's because they don't wish to scrimp on speakers and dilute the "reference" nature of their video system, from an appearance perspective. I contend that video customers are not audiophiles, thus have a limited interest in the pursuit of sound quality. Also, that videophiles don't seem too interested in video quality as a Quest, not like the quest for sound by audiophiles. Strictly plug an' play.

My question is: Does it matter whether a store is selling high end speakers to video customers? As long as high end speakers are in the store, then audiophiles have the chance to buy them as well...

The way I see HiFi retail going is two ways:

1) The dedicated HiFi dealers all either expand to include full home theatre or go out of business.

&

2) More brands move to selling facotry direct online.

Either way. Audiophiles will still be able to buy as much HiFi products as they want...

As for videophiles buying reference speakers to show off (as status symbols) as someone said: That's no different from a lot of supposed audiophiles as well...

Quote:
I don't want to talk about that

Today I want to talk about my mother
She is stupid, reads Paris Match where she found out that Charles was not being breast feeded by his mother and summited me to the same diet
Spend an unordinary amount of time with people she will never see again and don't care about her
Steal money from my father
Smoke
Has a Scotch before meals
I was always hiding from her at school when she came to pick me up

Why are you talking about anything? I thought you were leaving... Isn't that the point of this thread?

But was your mother faithful to your father, at least as far as your paternity? This is a problem more important, than simply drinking scotch before meals.