May Belt
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>>> "J_J stated one factor of many that affect the sound, not that anisotropy is the sole reason for all differences. " <<<

J J was quite definite !! He did not INITIALLY say anisotropy was ONE factor of many that affect the sound. If he HAD, then I would not have challenged - in fact I would have agreed with him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-

Quote from May:
>>> "It is this 'definiteness' which puzzles me, j j. I.e. Your - "it's the anisotropy that does it.".
So definite, no doubts !!"

Here j_j responds to May: "Yep, testable, verifiable, and verified via laser inferometery on the various wood panels of a violin.

Something people can measure, model, and test. You know, science..." <<<

Regards,
May Belt,
P.W.B. Electronics.

May Belt
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>>> "first the extraction from context in the statement regarding anisotropy," <<<

So, let's start again :- Your comment j j.
>>> "Hardwood logs that have been downed in one of the great lakes (USA) have shown to be remarkably good instrument wood, and it's the anisotropy that does it." <<<

I read that to mean "it is the anisotropy that does it (makes a remarkably good instrument wood). Logically, therefore, following on from that (without being actually said) is the reason why it might be a good INSTRUMENT wood is because of how it SOUNDS !!!!

You can't have been meaning that it is because of how it LOOKS as an instrument wood.
You can't have been meaning that it is because of how it SMELLS as an instrument wood.
You can't have been meaning that it is because of how it FEELS as an instrument wood.

So, you must have meant that it is because of how it SOUNDS as an instrument wood !!
So, logically again from that is that "it is the anisotropy that does it" (i.e makes the good SOUND).

emphasised later then by your :-
>>> "Yep, testable, verifiable, and verified via laser inferometery on the various wood panels of a violin.
Something people can measure, model, and test. You know, science..." <<<

>>> "The anisotropy of the wood due to lignin removal or aging is a very important part of the property of the wood. And in the context of "the wood" that is in fact one of the most telling properties.

This property and its importance have been, and continue to be, scientifically verified. The statement is not supposition or "theory" but in fact supported observation, surrounded by accepted theory and understanding.

Of course, there is more than wood to a violin design," <<<

NOW you say it !!!!! NOW you say there is more than wood to a violin design !!!!!
On Page 10 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>>> "One must wonder why this misconduct is happening. It is time for this misconduct to cease." <<<

Nothing to do with misconduct j j !! I challenged your original statement !!

>>> "That kind of misconduct and false representation of anothers' professional opinion is a classic method used by some proponents of high-end tweaks.

So, while it is deplorable that May has taken such an action, I can't say I'm at all surprised by it." <<<

Nothing to do with proponents of 'tweaks' j j. I can still think with exactly the same logic, whether I am producing high end 'state of the art' audio equipment or so called 'tweaks'.

>>> " misconduct and false representation of anothers' professional opinion is a classic method used by some proponents of high-end tweaks.

So, while it is deplorable that May has taken such an action, I can't say I'm at all surprised by it." <<<

That was an uncalled for and 'snide' remark !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards,
May Belt,
P.W.B. Electronics.

May Belt
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>>> "I like both guitars.
The glue, if it makes a difference at all , pales in comparison to the diff made by the bracing of the top, which makes the largest differences in sound to my perception. Bracing is more easily identifiable for me than even different wood tops: spruce or cedar." <<<

Surely you have made the point similar to the one I have been making all along ??

I.e That there is not ONE definite thing which "DOES IT" (as was stated earlier in the thread) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So many things have to be taken into consideration.

The point I was trying to make with the 'glue thing' was that 'master craftsmen' don't do things haphazardly or casually - and that is before getting them started on such simple things as the pitch of the thread of screws and 'fastenings' !!
I was more exploring what you had said about contradictions !! And how they also apply in audio. I was not wanting to know any secrets, more exploring why people make the decisions when making things (regarding how something sounds and what to use) and how one can pick up clues from WHY people have made such decisions.

Regards,
May Belt,
P.W.B. Electronics.

j_j
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Quote:
jj , where is the ceramic violin saga discussed?? id like to read up!

did find this tho...
http://www.widenfalk.com/english/violin/svartfiol6.html

Whoof. I saw it in a talk by Max Matthews and somebody else, I think from Stanford, at Bell Labs somewhere before 1980.

(I mean actually saw the thing, and it sounded great. It looked quite odd, however.)

Sorry, it was a long time ago.

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Quote:
J J was quite definite !! He did not INITIALLY say anisotropy was ONE factor of many that affect the sound. If he HAD, then I would not have challenged - in fact I would have agreed with him !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-

As my mom, who did not swear, would say, "Bushwha!".

You chose to pick a fight by taking a comment right on out of context. It was nothing more or less than picking a fight. I have no idea why you did it, but doing it was indeed picking a fight, and I have no use for dealing with people who pull stunts like that.

We were talking about the WOOD, May, the WOOD, not the whole bleedin' violin. My goodness, what an attempt to turn the other cheek this is.

Sorry, but them's the facts.

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Quote:

Nothing to do with proponents of 'tweaks' j j. I can still think with exactly the same logic, whether I am producing high end 'state of the art' audio equipment or so called 'tweaks'.

Uh huh. Yeah. But perhaps not quite in the way you intended that to mean.

commsysman
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I am sorry I do not have the article in front of me, but I do remember that the scientist who wrote the article had access to a couple of samples of wood from a Stradivarius that were removed during a needed repair.
The cellular analysis of the wood proved that it had been immersed in sea water at some time.
Subsequent historical research led to the discovery of the practice of floating such logs downriver and storing them in the seawater in the harbor, and the assumption that this how the wood for the instrument had this characteristic.
You can say "nope" all you want, but this was what I read, and it seemed to be rather well researched and documented.
Again, sorry I can't get you an exact reference at this time.
I'm not trying to "prove" anything, just providing information that may be relevant to the discussion.

geoffkait
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"I am sorry I do not have the article in front of me, but I do remember that the scientist who wrote the article had access to a couple of samples of wood from a Stradivarius that were removed during a needed repair.
The cellular analysis of the wood proved that it had been immersed in sea water at some time.

Subsequent historical research led to the discovery of the practice of floating such logs downriver and storing them in the seawater in the harbor, and the assumption that this how the wood for the instrument had this characteristic.

You can say "nope" all you want, but this was what I read, and it seemed to be rather well researched and documented.

Again, sorry I can't get you an exact reference at this time.
I'm not trying to "prove" anything, just providing information that may be relevant to the discussion."

Thanks for your input. However, I think I'll stick with my explanation that the wood was not immersed in seawater, and I'll give you two reasons why. First, the Little Ice Age occurred during Stradivarius' lifetime so the "old growth" wood he used was simply a happy coincidence. He would have used wood from freshly hewn trees that had grown up during the Little Ice Age. The advantage to "immersed wood" today, as I mentioned previously, is not the immersion per se, but the fact that it is "old growth" wood with very close grain structure that survived from the Little Ice Age. Second, Cremona, where Stradivarius lived, is as far from seawater as is possible for an Italian city.

Buddha
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These violins are not as rare as I thought - 650 or so still exist.

Experts can tell his early work apart from his later, more valued violins - which adds nothing to the debate about how he did it, just that it fits with someone honing his craft over time and achieving 'better' results.

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Excerpt from Chemical Analysis of Italian Violins:

The Italian samples revealed massive chemical changes in the wood polymers while the others differed only slightly from the recent natural wood. The observed changes went well beyond what one could see after boiling in water. Thus, there could be no doubt that these particular woods were chemically treated, and the only question concerns the specifics of the chemical treatment.

In the present study we report on the mineral analysis of the ashes from the previously used maple samples [13], to which we could also add an additional sample from an early Guarneri del Ges

Buddha
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Kind of like anodizing the wood, to use a malapropism!

The Strad/Guarneri stuff reminds me a little of Damascus Steel!

Lost arts.

geoffkait
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"Kind of like anodizing the wood, to use a malapropism!
The Strad/Guarneri stuff reminds me a little of Damascus Steel!
Lost arts."

Nope, it's not like anodizing the wood at all. That's so old school.

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Quote:
"Kind of like anodizing the wood, to use a malapropism!
The Strad/Guarneri stuff reminds me a little of Damascus Steel!
Lost arts."

Nope, it's not like anodizing the wood at all. That's so old school.

I must say that you seem willing to go to any length to inject great quantities of fantasy and sheer illogic into most any discussion you decide to derail. I would suggest that you not regard that as a complement.

Your assertion regarding "little ice age wood" seems rather unsupported in light of some modern instruments, your nonsense about "could this" and "could that" is sheer speculation, offered for your own griefer entertainment.

You're not amusing, and you are deliberately derailing the discussion, and we can all tell.

Why don't you go home, son?

geoffkait
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QUOTE:

I must say that you seem willing to go to any length to inject great quantities of fantasy and sheer illogic into most any discussion you decide to derail. I would suggest that you not regard that as a complement.

Your assertion regarding "little ice age wood" seems rather unsupported in light of some modern instruments, your nonsense about "could this" and "could that" is sheer speculation, offered for your own griefer entertainment.

You're not amusing, and you are deliberately derailing the discussion, and we can all tell.

Why don't you go home, son?

____________

Geez, did you swallow a hair ball or something? You were the one promoting the sonic attributes of immersed wood. Try to keep up with the discussion. Hope you feel better.

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