"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"

That's why I'm a physical media guy. If they ever start selling a wide selection of of high resolution downloads I plan to burn a copy of every album that I purchase for this very reason.

I'm shocked that this didn't happen all the time with iTunes (and others) DRM-laden downloads. In fact, I am not aware of this happening with music - someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Not a physical book guy, here.

I like the idea of read and release.

I own and LOVE my Kindle. I read now 300% more than I did before because I don't need to carry around a bag full of newspapers, book and magazines on the chance I will (or won't) have time to read them. It's not like a computer screen, much better resolution, and uses very little energy. I can carry ONE thing around and it's ALL there.

There is nothing spooky here, just annoying if you were in the middle of the book I'd imagine. But the whole beauty of the thing is that you can buy books and have them instantly downloaded to your Kindle, any time, any place. I come down in the morning and several daily publications are waiting for me when I get there. One newspaper is not available locally even if I wanted it that way. It's amazing- and saves on paper, printing and shipping costs, the works.

It's not for every publication out there- I certainly wouldn't be replacing visual or photographic intensive book or magazines (yet)- not until it equals what I'd get in paper. But think of it. I have a few shelves of all these great graphic design magazines that I hardly ever look at because they are heavy and...at home.

If I had an equal digital version I could bring with me, it'd be amazing! And as for not owning it- not true- you do. This was like a recall from the publisher- unfortunate, but the people got a refund- also instantly. So they can go out and get the paper book today too. And in theory they could have backed it all up on a hard drive and reloaded the copy if they wanted. You can convert a book to PDF for sharing if you really want to as well. Over the years how many of you have had to get rid of great books solely based on not having the room? If I could halve the books I own physically, keeping the really nice or expensive ones on my shelf and have all the other ones in one small device, it'd be a great situation (and easier on the back for moving). Again- I'd never want to ditch them all, but not all deserve limited shelf space either- that's reserved for the even heavier vinyl records!!!

Blah blah blah--- everyone is always going on about how some Big Bro is going to take some shit away from them. The power of economics is ten times more powerful than some imaginary force trying to take away your rights. No-one gotten anything taken from them- it was a digital book that got recalled and money was returned. Yeah- it's a weird way to treat your customer, but the right tio read it is not changed AT ALL:

From Amazon:

"In Stock.
Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.

36 new from $9.00
69 used from $6.49
4 collectible from $29.00"

And this is just one of several versions from them, right now.

I love books too much to ever get into digital reading. Book collecting is one of my other hobbies. I'm not into the first editions sort of thing, but I do have a soft spot for fine binding and leather.

Also, if Amazon every goes out of business or decides to discontinue Kindle, you can lose everything - no refund.

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... but I do have a soft spot for fine binding and leather.

Yea, wifey is in to that as well

RG

"What if you bought a CD at your local record emporium and a week later, in the dead of the night, they broke into your home, took the CD and left you a check on the table? How is that different from their breaking into your kindle and stealing product there?

Folk have got to bear in mind that it is not paranoia if it happened... "

Yeah- if that happened I'd be worried. But nothing like it has. Censorship is the inability to have free and easy access to a book, song or movie. Nothing like this is remotely (no pun intended) happening with this case. It's simple a matter of a medium- and one of many, that temporarily is restricted. If every book, tape and CD was forcibly recalled, I'd be right there with you. But as it is, it sounds like a case of poor customer service and bad PR.

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Also, if Amazon every goes out of business or decides to discontinue Kindle, you can lose everything - no refund.

First off- highly unlikely. Second, you can back up your files AND convert then to universal formats like PDF.

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Also, if Amazon every goes out of business or decides to discontinue Kindle, you can lose everything - no refund.

First off- highly unlikely. Second, you can back up your files AND convert then to universal formats like PDF.

If the last year has taught us anything, it is that any company can go belly-up.

Also, if someone has the power to do something, there is always a risk of someone (e.g the Gov't) forcing them to use that power.

I'm not an alarmist or anything. In fact, I considered getting a Kindle. I just prefer to own my things. If you think you own it, try selling it.

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Would you have ever owned a VCR if the device came with the ability for some outside party to delete a video...A CD player with the same capability? Nope....so why a digital book?

I simply see this for what it is- the bugs getting worked out. It's still a new medium. It was horrible customer service, but hardly a case of censorship or heavy handed anything. All I'm saying is that this is one isolated incident- not a precedent in my opinion because of the obvious negative customer feedback it'll bring.

For all the distrust you guys have in whoever is out there trying to control your life, it's surprising you think you're so safe because you can own things or keep holed up in your house. If the NSA/FBI/HLS really wants to bring you in, there is not a lot you can do about it. Maybe you have the "wrong" name, or associate with the "wrong" people, or look suspicious, or said the "wrong" things online. There is still a huge amount of Patriot Act latitude they have to bring you in for questions or worse. No amount of books on your shelf is going to change that.

A deleted book off a Kindle is so minor in the realm of human rights- only in a place so bloated with "rights" would it even get so much discussion. I'm sure there is already some lawyer just rubbing his hands with how much "personal distress" this incident is worth to his clients.

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For all the distrust you guys have in whoever is out there trying to control your life, it's surprising you think you're so safe because you can own things or keep holed up in your house. If the NSA/FBI/HLS really wants to bring you in, there is not a lot you can do about it. Maybe you have the "wrong" name, or associate with the "wrong" people, or look suspicious, or said the "wrong" things online. There is still a huge amount of Patriot Act latitude they have to bring you in for questions or worse. No amount of books on your shelf is going to change that.

Why do people always pick on lawyers? (Just kidding, it is clear why and many lawyers deserve it - but they're not all bad.)

Well, for the part of your argument quoted above - I don't see how that is relevant. The fact that there are greater infringements on personal freedoms elsewhere does not justify smaller infringements.

But, let me clarify. I wouldn't call this a human rights violation - even in the least. I would say the same thing if iTunes "killed" some songs (i.e., not a violation). You signed up for it - it is part of your contract with Amazon (or iTunes). You weren't coerced into the contract - no one is making you use a Kindle, you can buy books.

Second, I don't blame Amazon. I actually don't know the details, but I assume they were doing what they thought they legally had to do.

My thought is that such things could easily be used for something much worse. It isn't the end of the world, but we tend to give up things incrementally (i.e. when we've put up with a minor concession, we're more likely to concede something just a little great).

You know the only reason the internet is generally unregulated (with few exceptions) is because it cannot be regulated. People (e.g. Chinese gov't) have gone to great lengths and expenditures to try, but they just can't - (although with consolidation and participation of ISPs, that is getting more feasible in some areas). And while there are downsides, I feel better when the government cannot regulate certain things--particularly speech--very easily. Sure, they CAN send agents door-to-door to steal any offending books, but it is much more likely to cause a backlash, and the government would REALLY have to want to ban the thing.

Like I said, it isn't the end of the world, and there are much greater abuses out there, it is just a little weird to have books/writings (which have been subject to government regulation/censorship for almost as long as there has been government) become something that someone can just snatch with the push of a button--albeit in a very small part of the writing universe.

[As an aside, no sane lawyer would try to argue emotional distress here--they'd get sanctioned. If one is really bored, he or she might try to argue breach of contract. The problem with that, though, is the award would probably be the value of the book--which Amazon already paid. And you don't get attorney's fees in the United States for bringing a breach of contract claim. So the lawyer would lose, possibly be sanction, and not be paid even in the best of circumstances.]

"Second, I don't blame Amazon. I actually don't know the details, but I assume they were doing what they thought they legally had to do."

Well, there would likely be the most relevant point not yet discussed. Amazon probably never thought this would happen either. I expect there are already quite a few internal discussions to either rewrite contracts with publishers or put in place safeguards to prevent this practice from needing to be applied. This is a business- wildly successful, and it didn't get that by screwing customers. Unlike Microsoft that controls delivery AND content, Amazon is all about making it easier and more pleasant to part with your money as long as you get the product you want in the simplest and most efficient manner possible.

Again- I can agree what happened was a big mistake- why not just discontinue the sale of said book, when after all sharing is difficult and the ill-will far larger when it's gets secretly deleted? Obviously the publisher knew it'd be Amazon to be blames and not them.

Again, from my perspective this is an unfortunate gaffe, and for me the benefits I originally posted are far greater than a problem that MIGHT happen some day. 'nuff said for me.

I very much like the idea, and the whole concept.

However, like any big change in such things, it is good to look at the other possibilities that lie on the other side of the coin.

The OTHER SIDE, says giant doses of fascistic Orwellian greasing of history's real rails. Ie, history becomes greasy chicken goo that can be made to taste literally..like anything, anything at all.

In less than seconds.

If that is not disturbing, then nothing is.

So, I wont change out the idea of having a history of knowing WHO, why, how, etc..is fucking with me over the convenience of reading it on a digital pad. I realize that it is possible to get more word out faster with such devices, but it is also just as possible, if not more..due to control issues, internal lockdowns, etc..to distort through (via) these things than it is to broadcast truth. Always look for the man behind the curtain-for in the vast majority of the cases-he is there. Right now we can still find old texts and works that illustrate exactly who has been and is -in their modern forms- pulling strings from behind screens.

Some things are way, way, way, way too important for that.

So, I shit on the Kindle and any of it's kin. For the most important of reasons.

The damn thing is inevitable anyway, but I shit with much gusto on it, for the most basic and critical of reasons. If all I do is illustrate the dangers, even end up looking like some sort of angry malcontent, well,that's fine by me. The voice and tone I use is necessary in the most powerful way.

History is distorted enough. Don't give those who do so - another extremely powerful weapon such as this. And, don't smile all the way down that slippery slope. Use your head.

To put it more clearly, if you don't know what I'm saying, then you are dead already and I'm wasting my time. Enjoy your kindle.

But try and hold the disgusting thing it at arms length. For you are staring directly at the the true beginnings of the end of history. And thus, the complete derailing of entire societies and cultures of the future. for..they will have NO RECORDS of any substance. It's all going to be - vaporware. Changeable -at will.

So, KBK, let's say you are Orwell's estate or Amazon and before the deal is actually finalized for putting this stuff on Kindle, Amazon sells and ships.

Oops.

Then, the deal can't quite be pounded out.

Orwell's estate says, "What!? You already sent out our intellectual property for this device? But we haven't finished vetting it!"

Amazon, egg on face, says, "Well, what do you want us to do about it?"

Orwell's estates says, "Either pay us the amount we were asking at the start of negotiations, or find a way to undo this unauthorized sale of private intellectual property."

Amazon's lawyer's say, "Can we undo this sale?"

Amazon says, "I think we can retrieve it and 'no sale' the product."

No censorship took place, for the slippery slope dopes, this was a business related deal involving private property.

The Fox news crowd may leap on board and start calling it a slippery slope toward fascism and censorship when all it was was a transition of marketing a product from one format to another.

In essence, these books were leaked, like some music albums have been, and the owners did nothing more than exercise their right to have their product handled in a way they desired.

Does Amazon have an inalienable right to sell other people's property? Why would Amazon's screw up be construed as an act of censorship?

Buddha - the same thing could happen with the printed press. But you know what? I'd still have the book.

If it had been a book exposing previously unknown and horrific details of the Bush administration...I would love to see the reaction.

And before you say "it would never happen," think about such a book being published with Bush (or a similar president) in the white house - say, 30 years from now, when 95% of all book reading is done via kindle-like devices - you don't think there is any chance that the administration would coerce Amazon to zap the book? No chance at all? If you don't think so, you have way more faith in government than I.

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Buddha - the same thing could happen with the printed press. But you know what? I'd still have the book.

If it had been a book exposing previously unknown and horrific details of the Bush administration...I would love to see the reaction.

And before you say "it would never happen," think about such a book being published with Bush (or a similar president) in the white house - say, 30 years from now, when 95% of all book reading is done via kindle-like devices - you don't think there is any chance that the administration would coerce Amazon to zap the book? No chance at all? If you don't think so, you have way more faith in government than I.

So, we are transitioning from a disagreement over private intellectual property into government coersion?

That's cool, but why wait 30 years. In theory, your worries could be happening now, with suppression of paper publishing, fear of someone's spouse being victimized by the government if they don't like what someone wants to say, political enemies lists, government ignoring the notion of freedom of information, and FBI harassment...

Your fears are a little screwed up - because we are already living in the era of warrantless wiretaps and Patriot Act type violations of privacy, all without a peep from people like JIMV, who seem to only wake up when a Democrat is in the White House.

If government intrusion is on your worry list now, welcome to the party, how many decades late! Go learn about J Edgar Hoover, Nixon's dirty tricks brigade, any number of bipartisan attempts to suppress the sharing of information!

Since government intrusion abounds, why worry about further intrusions?

Unlike some people, I'm not saying Amazon is the devil (heck, I buy from them all the time). I'm just agreeing that the fact that the written word, which you ostensibly own, can be taken away from you with the push of a button (almost literally), is a little spooky..or at least warrants some thought.

Then there's the slippery slope - I don't know when the first time this ability will be used by a government to oppress speech (do they sell these in China?), but odds are it'll happen. Of course, if 99.99% of the population doesn't use the thing it won't have as great an impact.

EDIT: Also, I feel really funny posting about this in the Entry Level section of all places...

I follow technology in the realm of projection vs wall screen type devices..and I NOTE that OLED's have become and are on the verge of being printable and dirt cheap, with extreme quality and contrast, etc.

Therefore, it will be a year, maybe a bit more, before these Kindle type devices are going to begin gaining ground. I expect them to be the size of a magazine and very tough and sturdy..for the fee of $20US (current money value) and capable of storing 100G or more. This, in 5 years.

This means the end of the magazine rack as we know it today. Same for the book store.

Then, things will really take off.

Incredible information ---and all mutable at will.

A VERY dangerous combination, when looked at with clear eyes.

It is also a BEAUTIFUL combination, but history has a way of showing us how ugly the behind the scenes opportunists have repeatedly been for thousands of years and if you expect them to miss such an opportunity, you are clearly insane, ignorant, illiterate --or all three.

In 5 years, 'direct cranial wiring' (wireless or hard wired) will begin showing itself at the consumer/available level.** We are on the verge of reliable repetition and transmission in this technology area now. This, with regard to what the public is allowed to know. Whispered messages that seemed to appear behind the ears of the target with regard to RF transmission of 'clearly heard words' was done in the 70's-80's. This was done via RF carriers and sharp square wave Audio Frequency Modulation of the approximate 300mz RF carrier. Fact.

The whole thing will begin to change gears to the more interesting chess game - at that point.

** I'm talking about visuals, dreams, actual 'living' of films, etc. Imagine the Porn industry feeding on that one. Nevermind the snuff films. Or what governments might want you to see....

I just saw that a friend of mine (who was also my professor), published an Op-Ed touching on this and related subjects in the Times. Definitely worth a read. Note that this guy isn't crazy: you might get that impression from some parts of the article, but he qualifies it at the end. I don't always agree with him (he supports certain regulation more than I do), but he hits some of the key issues.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/20/opinion/20zittrain.html

You can also check out the current Onion article "Internet Adds 12th Website."

"In 5 years, 'direct cranial wiring' (wireless or hard wired) will begin showing itself at the consumer/available level."

That kind of prediction makes me roll on the floor laughing. I heard that ALL devices would be wireless in...hmmm 2000? Not yet, but we're sort of getting there in the last year. It took almost 8 years just to get peripherals to adopt USB. Bluetooth is still an anomaly for most devices. Hell, I'm almost the only guy among our friends I know who has a Blu-Ray player. Most people still don't even know how to back up their computer (or that they should).

When I see PCs that don't crash, EVER, for more than ten years of 24/7 usage, I'll think about wet ware feeds, but not any sooner. I'll enjoy my Kindle, but I sure as hell won't be an early adopter of Windows: Cerebral 1.0!!!! Nor for a cranial iPod!

Direct cranial wiring will finally allow the machines to just keep us in giant warehouses and use our bodies to generate heat and energy in return for providing us with the illusion of living actual lives.

Wow, I should write a movie, or something!

I qualified the remark.

At this time, space flight is beginning to show itself at the consumer/ available level. Milli/billionaires have ended up at the space station. That's what I mean. Out there and available, if you are willing to go for it.

The information is out there if you have the balls to read it and look at it squarely. Most of you don't which is the heart of why we are so fucked - today.

For the most part anyone who tries to show the existence of such things usually receives this negative or hamhanded derisive shit humor for responses.

On a related note, the sequel to "The Traveller" and "The Dark River" is due out in one month!

Got an email yesterday from Customer Service that they've changed their policy about removing illegal copies from Kindles. It said:
"We have changed our systems so that in the future, books will not be removed from customers' devices in these circumstances."

As I said all along- a mistake that would be corrected in due time- in this case a few days.

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Got an email yesterday from Customer Service that they've changed their policy about removing illegal copies from Kindles. It said:
"We have changed our systems so that in the future, books will not be removed from customers' devices in these circumstances."

As I said all along- a mistake that would be corrected in due time- in this case a few days.

Did they say they were disabling the DRM restrictions? No? Then they didn't correct anything.

Dude- there are no DRM restrictions built in-just implied really. You can convert anything to PDF and illegally share them at will. For all I know I could share my entire backup with a friend who had another Kindle. You can add folders and pout whatever you want in them.

But who cares anyway? OK, so I can't technically share my book I download- I don't share that many physical books as it is, and the myriad benefits I get from portability, easy access, books and magazines at 40% less than the cover price, as well as having them all in one small item that weighs less than one hardcover- the trade-off is for me NO trade off at all.

I can't share my records either unless I convert them digital files (also technically illegal) but I'm not complaining. The format is what works for me, and I don't care about the shortcomings that others imagine they possess,

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I can't share my records either unless I convert them digital files (also technically illegal) but I'm not complaining. The format is what works for me, and I don't care about the shortcomings that others imagine they possess,

First, you can sell or donate your records. Second, I don't care about "sharing." I don't advocate illegal activity; I just think that owning should be owning.

Your point about the PDF version is a good one and, while I certainly know how PDF conversion works, I don't know how it is with the Kindle. You still do not own the book--you own the right to have it on your Kindle.

Also, I'm not really militant against the Kindle. I think it is a really cool device. It's just that there are risks associated with it. If the Kindle was a device that could be used to read books in a standard e-book DRM-free format, that would be perfect.

(On a totally unrelated note, is anyone else irritated by companies dropping the article from names AND turning them into verbs? You don't have "an iPhone" and you don't say "the iPhone does X" you "have iPhone," "iPhone does X." Same thing with Kindle. And you can "iPhone." It drives me nuts.)

It is interesting that Bezos didn't defend the action; he admitted it was stupid. It is a good marketing move, as most people appreciate it when companies can admit they made a mistake, myself included (and in this case they don't really have to worry about legal liability).

"This is an apology for the way we previously handled illegally sold copies of 1984 and other novels on Kindle. Our "solution" to the problem was stupid, thoughtless, and painfully out of line with our principles. It is wholly self-inflicted, and we deserve the criticism we've received. We will use the scar tissue from this painful mistake to help make better decisions going forward, ones that match our mission.

With deep apology to our customers,
Jeff Bezos
Founder & CEO
Amazon.com"

Sounds like 'time for a hack', to me. And Doug, nothing personal or direct intended, just so you know. I'm kicking Buddha's ass around the block-and he's kicking mine. No big deal. I'm playing the straight man today. My forte.