| Columns Retired Columns & Blogs |
| Loudspeakers Amplification Digital Sources | |
Analog Sources Accessories Featured | |
Music Columns Retired Columns | |
Show Reports | |
Features Latest News Community | |
Resources Subscriptions |
© 2024 StereophileAVTech Media Americas Inc., USA
All rights reserved
Wow, I didn't even catch this. You're holding up an alchemist as a paragon of observational science?
Newton was a lot of things, but he sure as hell wasn't even a scientist, at least in any modern sense of the term. Keynes once said that "Newton was not the first of the age of reason, he was the last of the magicians."
Ah, but he was an absolutely brilliant mathematician and the fact that our part of the universe follows certain mathematical rules induced Newton to make connections previously not thought of. Connections we still take heed of. Until, that is, we get down to the quantum level where nobody appears to fully understand what the hell is going on. Maybe LP de-magnetizers work on that level and we'll just have to wait for theoretical physics to catch up to audiophilia?
Me, I've already got enough ritual to cope with when I play LP's. Even if these things do work I'd be reluctant to add one to my collection of LP accouterments as I'd end up spending more time getting ready to play the damned things than I do listening to them. Enough is enough already!!
So, did Newton "discover" gravity and just say that we'd have to take his word for it, or did he make a measurabble, reproduceable claim?
Science includes observation, but then it takes things a little further than we in audio do.
Audio Science: I think it is so, so it is so.
Us audiophiles argue like chicks.
That would be most excellent. You have my contact info, and in case I forgot to give you my email address it's on my web site www.ethanwiner.com.
As for trusting my own ears, I've been doing this stuff long enough that I know not to trust anyone's ears! But you said the change in sound after de-magging an LP is profound, so surely even this 60-year-old should be able to hear it, yes?
--Ethan
When we play LP's..we are talking about a VERY small signal that is being hugely amplified. This exacerbates errors--however minute.
LP signals are WELL into the noise floor levels with regards to measurement systems themselves. (mechanical and electrical-as a unified set, with regards to dynamics within LP systems) All we do when we measure an LP system is we list gross numbers. We don't dwell in the minutiae and how they integrate with one another and the whole. This is due to the fact that we really can't reliably measure what the ear hears. We've been through this before and the usual suspects are saying the same thing-again...and...all the time.
At that level, static charge on the LP does definitely play a part. one would think that demagging an LP which is largely dielectric in nature (larger part) would have no effect. But it indeed does.
Heating? No. It's not that. Ie, not the Furutech heating the disc in a direct thermal fashion due to the machine itself heating up and directly heating the LP like 'toast'.
De-magging will decrease static charge level to that of which is more neutral. However, there is a Furutech ionizing type device for that trick.
This is different.
If you choose to live in the middle of the herd.. that's fine. IF you wish to disparage and attack those who strike out to define and refine the edges - as Newton himself did in his time, then don't be surprised if we reach out and smack you every now and then. I myself headed for the edge of the whole thing even as a child, as the middle is most boring.
Perhaps, some day (we can only hope)...it might wake you up to the greater, rolling, growing world of expanding knowledge that is out there.
In the meantime go after the people who purposely lie to you and attempt to control you concerning things that are important - Like banking and world politics.
For there are no lies here. Merely things we know we hear-and attempts to understand them. Some DO understand what we hear from these effects and devices. But does that mean we need to tell you? No it does not. It's on your plate, if you wish to understand it; and some of us feel the price of admission for the improvement is worth it.
I've only got about 4000 LPs..and I'd buy the Furutech device if I found it effective. The price for improving each LP would be quite low at that point.
Mikey has considerably more invested so it would be a no-brainier for him.
Ethan: Your post appeared after/during my post being typed up. Thank you for your attitude, it is most appreciated.
I just demagnetized all the plastic in my home. I heard silence before, but now I can REALLY hear into that silence. Yep, the stuff works
You know, if you were to qualify your statements that records sound better to your ears, I don't think you would be getting so much abuse. However, you tend to make blanket statements as a matter of fact: Records sound better!
As far as your observational track record is concerned, your observation that the out of phase Zanden player sounded like the best thing since sliced bread leaves your observations suspect.
My point is that your ears can be fooled just like anyone else's and reliance on one's ears to make blanket proclamations is foolhardy especially when data suggests that the technology behind an enhancement product is rather dubious.
A) The Zanden sounded great and was not "out of phase" in the conventional sense....like speakers out of phase. All of the reviews have been equally positive. Read them. After the unit was fixed it came back and while it measured somewhat better, it really didn't sound that different.....
However, I will definitely make a blanket statement about the Furutech demagnetizer because it has worked on EVERY black record I've tried it with.
What do you mean it didn't sound "out of phase" like a speaker? My understanding is that if something is out of phase, it's out of phase in the same way whether or not it's a speaker or a component.
Does the Furutech perform any differently with a different colored record? Why do you say only "black" records?
Alex, please stop being a dick on Ad nauseam repeat. It's getting really old.
Perhaps the issue is on my table* and you really don't understand what Michael meant. Perhaps you really are that literal minded. However, experience has taught me that it might be 'baiting' that you are engaged in.
Your best solution is to research all the types of phase you might understand..instead of thrusting the entire question, answer, and complex explanations (plural!!!) of the issue on Mikey's plate. That is not correct.
You should endeavor to grow or increase your knowledge of things under your own steam, instead of expecting others to do it for you. If it was received/gained with nearly zero effort on your part, then it will have the same as a value to you. You will mistreat it as having no value. So, please go out there and learn about these things yourself-so they might have some value to you..and you'll be less likely to dismiss them out of hand.
This is why I rarely answer people. You have a brain-use it. Exercise that puppy.
*(table..table..get it? Hah!)(turntable) (A vinyl pun)
Ummmm... what?
I guess I'm not exactly a regular here, but I dig deep into the minutiae all the time. Has anybody else on this forum even tried to measure record magnetization numerically, besides me? The noise floor is surprisingly low, if you look at the numbers hard enough. Still, the motor seems to dominate the measurements.
I assure you that LP distortions can be well above the noise floor - as long as you know what you are looking for.
Not true; the heating thing is a bit plausible given the physics of the situation. A "magnetized" record, when played back, will only have a very slow-changing magnetic signal as picked up by the cartridge - it's at harmonics of 33rpm after all. A heated-up record can warp slightly as it expands. This, too, will show up as 33rpm harmonics. The two effects are very similar, although heating will also effect the wow, and magnetization will not. Such a warp may or may not persist after the record cools down (and hell, it might be cool before Mikey pulls it out of the Furutech!)
How does demagnitization reduce static charge? There needs to be an additional conductive agent for that to happen.
Mikey, if you don't understand science, don't try and use it in an argument. I dunno about Buddha, but I like to think that my response on that was quite friendly. You haven't seen my insult mode yet
It honestly is kind of surprising (and troubling) that you'd cite Newton in such a way. It's not some minor point that can be dismissed; it cuts to the core of the importance of observation. If you have misconceptions about Newton, I really hope you do learn more about him, and the history and philosophy of science in general. There are many practical and important conclusions about the power of observation that can be made from such learning. Hell, I'll even give you a list of books to read if you want.
I was using Newton as an example of observation leading to discovery. That's all. I don't need a list of books, thank you.
However when I read dismissive posts by people who have NOT OBSERVED and who then claim something they've yet to attempt to measure is unmeasurable, I find their claims of being "scientific" pure B.S.....
If it can be heard, it can be measured. If it can't be measured, it cannot be produced in multiple numbers with consistent results.
The Zanden had a wiring error but it was not "wired out of phase." That's your mistake.
Secondly, plastic does not get magnetized. What appears to carry the magnetic charge is the carbon black or whatever is used to make records black. Apparently there are metallic impurities that get magnetized, it is suggested, in the pressing process.
That is why only black records show any change when demagnetized. That is why Classic Records now makes "Clarity" records that don't use the black material in their PVC formulation. Classic sent me the same record pressed on Clarity and black vinyl. They sounded very different---same stamper---until I demagnetized the black one....then they sounded indentical..
BY THE WAY
HERE IS THE LINK TO THE TWO VERSIONS OF THE TOM WAITS SONG. THEY ARE BIG FILES AND WILL TAKE A LONG TIME TO DOWNLOAD. BURN THEM AS CDS AND PLAY ON YOUR STEREO SYSTEM, NOT YOUR COMPUTER SPEAKERS : http://idisk.mac.com/musicangle-Public?view=web
(Step Right Up 5 and 6)...feel free to download anything else there....
Close, Alex.
If something can be measured, first one has to devise and understand the measurement system so it correctly applies and pertains to the 'thing' being observed.
This inherently implies that the phenomena is understood.
In these sorts of considerations, observation comes first.
The devising of measurement tends to come along at the same time as a plausible explanation of the noted and observed effect or change in value.
Ie, you have to know what you are looking for---first..or at the least the question and answer have to appear in the mind at the same time so the two can be put together via the 'soon-to-be-devised' measurement. The measurement hopefully bridges the observation into the quantifiable.
What one does in the meantime, if nothing is available (no devised measurement system that applies and illustrates the observation issue)...is they note the observation, and hold onto that information and wait until the logjam of 'chicken vs egg' of 'measurement vs observation' has a moment of inspiration..or..something is pulled from some other source like a similar phenomena that is noted -and a method of measurement has been applied to that situation. Then one picks up that measurement system (that worked) or device (that worked)and attempts to apply to the unknown in the new situation/observation.
If a measurement has been devised that MAY work with regards to quantifying some vale of some sort...and no value is found..that does not in any way defeat the OBSERVATION of the 'effect' it merely means that the measurement system is not sensitive enough and/or it has been misapplied.
That's what properly applied science looks like. It is not dismissive. It tries to quantify and sometimes it can't and good science notes this vital and fundamentally important point - each and every day. Such thinking is critical to moving forward in science.
Engineers..on the other hand..are trained to APPLY known quantities that are written down and are specifically not trained to do scientific exploration. However, the given person may be the inquisitive type and may be less dismissive.
However, Engineering schools and (sadly) even scientific schools are shamefully involved in removing the inquisitive nature of man and doing their damnedest to create autonomic repeat-like robots of qualified mathematical formula and 'set in stone theories' that are shamefully misnamed and maligned into being called laws. I regurgitate my meal on that set -with much deserved gusto.
This is the crux of the matter in most cases of dismissive behaviour toward these things we observe and hear as audiophiles.
The dismissive behaviour is coming from people who may or may not be (but usually are not) qualified to dismiss the situation. What is fundamentally happening is the general public or dismissive audiophile is reacting to and following along with the abusive and illiterate behavior that is spewing forth (via emotional response) from an engineer.
If you wish to hear it coming back - in a more abusive retort like fashion...then....basically, illiterate engineers are spewing crap they know nothing about.
I'm saying it this way...as this has got to be at least the 10th time I've explained this to you.
I quote from the review:
JA's quote:
"The Zanden DAC inverted signal polarity with the front-panel switch set so that the green LED was illuminated, and preserved absolute polarity with it illuminated red
There's potential confusion because of how the phrase "out of phase" is sometimes used. Speakers by tradition are said to be "out of phase" when one of the two speaker wires is reversed. That is, one channel might have amp red to speaker red, while the other might have amp red to speaker black on the banana plugs and jacks. This is usually an accident of course.
The Zanden review refers to absolute polarity of both channels simultaneously, not relative polarity between left and right. Here's what absolute polarity of a DAC means.
A DAC can be thought of in an abstract way as a device whose input at any given moment is an integer (a whole number), and whose output is a voltage. This integer usually ranges from a minimum of -32768 to a maximum of +32767 (16-bit signed). A DAC is said to preserve absolute polarity if increasing values of the input integer result in increasing output voltages. A DAC inverts polarity if increasing the input integer causes the output voltage to decrease.
Wouldn't you get the same effect if you flipped the phase switch on a preamp to 180 deg instead of 0?
Yes, if your preamp has such a switch. Those switches change the polarity of both channels simultaneously. IOW, the preamp might go from both channels non-inverting to both channels inverting or vice versa.
The potential for confusion arises, I think, because of the traditional use of the phrase "out of phase" regarding speakers. Out-of-phase speakers would have the same effect as if one channel of amplification were inverting and the other not.
Ok, when I originally said "out of phase", I meant it like the effect you would get when you flip a phase switch on the preamp.
No worries
.
Neither of those files work. I could not play them with Windows Media Player or Sound Forge, and CD Architect also flagged them as corrupt or invalid.
Now what?
--Ethan
Ethan,
I just tried them in WinAmp and Foobar. WinAmp played them fine. Foobar did not, even though it is supposed to support AIFF. AIFF comes in two flavors though - little endian and big endian, so maybe that's the issue.
At any rate, try WinAmp. It's free.
Mr. Winer,
It seems as if your computer has some funky stuff happening. Ive noticed that you seem to have trouble a lot with downloading files or playing them..when most everyone else is getting on fine? Are you running windows ME?
plays fine on foobar here
ugh, why using WMP? that is garbage. get foobar, sir.
low resource usage. open source. plays all formats!
What version are you running? I just uninstalled my old 0.9.5 version, completely deleting the directory. Then I installed 0.9.6.4 from scratch. Still no go. I get this error:
"Unable to open item for playback (Unsupported format or corrupted file):
"E:\My Music\extras\Samples\5 Step Right Up1.aiff"
Weird. I thought it was supposed to have native support for AIFF. Looking in the Foobar2000 change log, I see AIFF support was rewritten in 0.9.5.
Thanks Mikey. (5:42! Zoinks!)
Like the others, I'm having a problem with foobar2000, but Audacity crashes with the first sample (!). I wound up converting it to WAV with QuickTime 7 Pro. I don't know if there are processing stages inside of that, so take that as you will.
One of the classic and unavoidable conclusions about the "power of observation," is how easily the smug, self-satisfied, arrogant, Mr. Fancy Pants Scientific Methodist establishes a false heirarchy within the experimetal process between the observer (I) and the observed (Thou). This distorted "I, Thou" relationship can easily skew the so-called empirical validity of the experiment in question. I can give you a list of books, if you'd like- but they would fuck with your tidy little world view.
Heh. You're going to try a flame like that without actually citing anything? That's awfully scientific of you to state something without evidence.
I like my tidy little worldview. It is unusually persuasive to other people (I just gave ABX testing a new lease on life in another forum!) You're free to try to topple it over. I don't mind. Somehow though, I suspect you're not actually smart enough to do that, and you just want to get a rise out of me.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
If ABX were so damn persuasive, why would it need a "new lease on life"?
This is completely OT, but: honestly, it's not exactly persuasive; it's very nonintuitive in some ways. And I think there are a lot of misperceptions about it. And those who seem to be the most dogmatic about it also tend to be the most, uh, grating in personality (heh). I am actively trying to avoid that, and I'm not sure if I could have told Mikey "I think you have a basic misunderstanding of the history of science and I am willing to back that up with references" in much more of a gracious manner. So, yeah.
That whole issue is moot now, anyways. I didn't see Mikey's response, but I don't have much to respond with. I understand where he was coming from, he disagrees with my calling stuff out without observation, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.
My point here was that while rvance spent his time baiting me, I've spent most of my forum time in the last day successfully convincing others why people like him are wrong in the first place. So excuse me if I don't play ball.
Anyways, I desperately did not want this thread to turn into an ABX fight. I'm willing to talk about it, but in a different thread or over PM.
Important safety tip: the second sample runs on average 0.6% faster than the first. Which is.... curious.
If they add grit to vinyl, wouldn't you expect it to sound worse than clear, regardless of magnetic state?
Why would we think demagnetizing would deliver black vinyl (full of particulate matter) to a place that sounds the same as clear, pure vinyl?
Vaseline with sand, or without? I guess it doesn't matter so long as the sand is demagnetized.
I just realized that Jonathan Scull, the former Stereophile writer, represents Furutech in his public relations efforts.
Any future realizations will be deleted!
RG
Imagine a product line so good, it seduces you away from a gig at Stereophile.
That must be one terrific line of products.
>>> "What one does in the meantime, if nothing is available (no devised measurement system that applies and illustrates the observation issue)...is they note the observation, and hold onto that information and wait until the logjam of 'chicken vs egg' of 'measurement vs observation' has a moment of inspiration..or..something is pulled from some other source like a similar phenomena that is noted" <<<
Absolutely, spot on. I could not have put it better myself.
>>> "a moment of inspiration..or..something is pulled from some other source like a similar phenomena that is noted" <<<
It has happened so, throughout history !!
Regards,
May Belt.
Exactly. Windows Media Player and Sound Forge both support AIFF files, and I've created them myself when exporting stuff for Mac users. My PC is finely-tuned for high audio and video performance, and I'm not about to install new software just to play a non-standard file format once. I'm sure Mikey has tools that can save standard files that anyone can play.
--Ethan
And then the realizer will be flogged!
As long as the format change does not do any numerical transforms to handle/shift/switch the data, then it -should- be fine. Barring any hardware handling issues that may rear their head.
But, if you desire to hear the file yourself...then you might do a format alteration. Mike has provided the files. IMHO. etc.
Then the question becomes the next one on the list, I very much suspect. We shall see.
Actually, I'm pretty sure that when he left it was to do PR work for Monster Cable. That seems like sort of a step down career wise but maybe the paycheck was better.
not with WMP installed it isnt, Mr. Winer.
I personally don't think it is at all relevant to the discussion whether you paid for something you have tried or not, although I do realise that you were merely answering Ethan's rather snide question !! The discussion is about whether applying a demagnetiser to LPs (and, discussed elsewhere, CDs) can improve the sound.
The price is irrelevant because,
1) Many people who have PAID IN FULL for the demagnetising device have used it on LPs and CDs and HEARD it give improvements in the sound.
2) Many people who have paid but with a DISCOUNT for the demagnetising device have used it on LPs and CDs and HEARD it give improvements in the sound.
3) Many people who have BORROWED the demagnetising device have used it on LPs and CDs and HEARD it give improvements in the sound.
4) Many people who have been GIVEN FOR FREE the demagnetising device have used it on LPs and CDs and HEARD it give improvements in the sound.
5) Many people who do not own one but who have been given a DEMONSTRATION of the demagnetising device being used on LPs and CDs and HEARD it give improvements in the sound.
6) Many people - in different situations, in different countries, with different LPs and CDs, listening through different equipment, in different rooms at different times have HEARD such devices give improvements in the sound.
The COMMON DENOMINATOR throughout is that many people have HEARD the procedure of applying a demagnetiser to LPs and CDs give improvements in the sound - and THAT is where one starts !!!! At their observations !! NOT at what they might or might not have paid for a device.
Introducing specific payments, cost etc into a discussion are merely red herrings ! Such red herrings then allows people to discuss price etc and to avoid facing the awkward question "What on earth is going on ?"
OR, when Ethan says to Michael, "Even better, I'd really like to borrow some of the things I consider "magic" to test in my own studio."
Would that mean that because Ethan would be 'borrowing' the device (instead of actually paying for it) that Ethan would carry out his listening tests differently when 'borrowing' it than if he had 'paid for it' ?????????? If Ethan, himself, would not listen any differently, either way, then he should not use the method of implication that other people would listen any differently !! Why else would Ethan ask Michael the question ;-
"Did you actually buy the Furutech demagnetizer (even if at a discount), or was it given to you for no cost at all? I'm in the biz too and I understand there are varying arrangements. But knowing if you paid even a discounted price is useful information for me." if Ethan was not wanting to imply that Michael could/would/might/was listening to the device differently, depending on whether he had paid full price, discount price or no price at all !!!
Regards.
May Belt.
Just because one cannot not explain something does not mean it didn't happen. Ever seen a ghost? I have.
no such things as ghosts. everything that can be heard can be explained and measured. Sound reproduction isnt a new concept. ever heard of Alan Dower Blumlein?
Tell that to the two I saw in broad daylight...on separate occasions but in the same place.
If you believe in ghosts, I can sell you anything.
Such as ghost eradicating ointment?
Pages