GM didn't have to be taken over. If they hadn't driven the company into the ground, they wouldn't have been taken over. Once they got taken over, the government became a major stake holder. As such, it's in the driver's seat and dictates who heads the company.

So, there's really no need to whine about it because GM had two options:

1. Not to become bankrupt

2. Not to accept gov't money.

Since they became bankrupt and accepted gov't money, they now have to play to the tune of the major stake holder. Money always comes with strings attached. One of them got pulled. Nothing to cry about.

Blame the unions...the companies cannot succeed until the union contracts are brought into line with non union competitors. Now he is pandering to the union as he reads his telemarketer brain. The market seems to be holding it breath. Either it will regains some of today's losses as a result of his speech, or his throwing money at union heavy regions will spook them and the market will fall...

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The market seems to be holding it breath. Either it will regains some of today's losses as a result of his speech, or his throwing money at union heavy regions will spook them and the market will fall...

What a prediction!

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The market seems to be holding it breath. Either it will regains some of today's losses as a result of his speech ...

Either the markets will rise ...

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... or his throwing money at union heavy regions will spook them and the market will fall...

Or the markets will fall.

And this is your basis for ... what? This is how you waste your time? You really need to get a job in your retirement, something to keep you busy and out of this sort of prognostication BS.

I saw and wrote about the current recession way back in the summer of 2007..As a result, I have not lost any money, sold two homes at the peak and bought a smaller one when prices were down 20%....By result, my prognostications have proven better than anyone in politics and most on Wall Street...from both parties.

In 2007 I wrote that the issue in 2008 would be the economy and the person who spoke to it best would win. The left called me an idiot as the war (which we had about won) would surely be THE topic and the right did the 'don't worry, be happy' dance. I sold a home and bought more gold...

How brilliant were you son?

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Blame the unions...the companies cannot succeed until the union contracts are brought into line with non union competitors. Now he is pandering to the union as he reads his telemarketer brain. The market seems to be holding it breath. Either it will regains some of today's losses as a result of his speech, or his throwing money at union heavy regions will spook them and the market will fall...

The unions don't manage the company. The company manages the company. So, the blame goes towards the management. Else, how do you explain the profits they were making selling SUV's with unions in tow?

Secondly, I refuse to accept a race to the bottom. I don't think that American workers should become indentured servants like the workers in the third world. The unions are an integral part of ensuring against the tyranny of private power.

Alex, can you name one industry infested by unions that is healthy and competitive? Even UPS is in trouble.

Given the depth of the current recession, every industry is in trouble. I'll reverse the question, can you name me any industry right now (aside from the military-industrial complex which is subsidized by the government) which is not in trouble?

AIG had no union. Neither did Lehman, Solomon, or Citicorp.

Most small business, those not regulated by that bloated inept government...

Small business are suffering now because they can't get loans.

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I saw and wrote about the current recession way back in the summer of 2007..

You saw the housing bubble in 2007?!

OOOOOOOOOOOOOH! I'mmmmm immmmmmmprrrrrrresssed.

Can you see lightning and hear thunder too?

Hey, maybe they can invent a new model called the "People's Car" and it will be the start of whole new era for the "Homeland."

Oops, wait, it was Bush who came up with the perversion of Fatherland into Homeland. Man, that guy was slick.

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...the government became a major stake holder. As such, it's in the driver's seat and dictates who heads the company.

Yep, just like the National Socialist Party.

Not really. I would be interested in what you feel should be done "Lamont." It seems there there are 3 strategies:

1) Bail out GM and Chrysler but with no input from government on what should be done with the investment. (This was done at the end of the last Administration.) The car companies have now come back for more cash.

2) Bail out GM and Chrysler but insist on there being realistic goals and a workable timeframe for meeting those goals in return for the investment. (This appears to be the Obama strategy.)

3) Accept the verdict of market and allow GM and Chrysler to seek refuge in Chaper 11 bankruptcy, thus allowing them to be restructured or closed, with the profitable aspects sold off.

Having lived through the endless but ineffectual bailouts of British Leyland in the 1970s, I am in favor of #3, though with respect to #2, I strongly believe that he who pays the piper calls the tune. Obviously, you object to #2, "Lamont." But do you prefer #1, #3, or neither? And if neither, what would _you_ do?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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I saw and wrote about the current recession way back in the summer of 2007..

You saw the housing bubble in 2007?!

OOOOOOOOOOOOOH! I'mmmmm immmmmmmprrrrrrresssed.

Can you see lightning and hear thunder too?

I can see the obvious and take action to protect myself and family...can you honestly say the same...

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I believe in the invisible hand of supply and demand. When left alone [emphasis added] it will take care of itself.

So you agree with me, that GM and Chrysler should be allowed to reap the whirlwind of their past incompetence, allowing someone else to pick up the pieces?

My late father worked in the Detroit car industry in the mid-1960s. Even back then he felt that GM had filled up with management and engineering deadwood. Which is a paradox considering that their European subsidiaries have always been innovative and heavy on the engineering.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

The only thing that has kept that from happening is that Obama is owned by the unions...

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I can see the obvious and take action to protect myself and family...can you honestly say the same...

I can rub my tummy and pat my head while whistling a snappy tune ... Can you honestly say the same?!

Geez, guy, you sound like a character out of West Side Story. Better go check the canned goods supply in the bunker.

You have a choice?!!!!!!!

Commissar LS, maybe this is one of your problems, yes?!

You think the world exists in YouTube sound bites, no?!

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Yes, I agree with you. If there is a demand for something there are people, not governments, that will be more than happy to supply that demand. Every single automobile manufacturer in America has met death. Why should GM and Chrysler be any different? The easier softer way is almost never the answer. The invisible hand of supply and demand can be very painful. But in the end supply meets demand if it is left to run its course.

I see you blame both the previous and current Administrations for this bailout policy, which I feel appropriate. But what I fail to understand is why, as far as I can tell, you didn't condemn the Republicans or if you did, only in mild terms, yet you compare the Obama Administration with the Nazis for doing exactly the same thing. More than a whiff of a double standard at work, I suggest.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Yes, I agree with you. If there is a demand for something there are people, not governments, that will be more than happy to supply that demand. Every single automobile manufacturer in America has met death. Why should GM and Chrysler be any different? The easier softer way is almost never the answer. The invisible hand of supply and demand can be very painful. But in the end supply meets demand if it is left to run its course.

I see you blame both the previous and current Administrations for this bailout policy, which I feel appropriate. But what I fail to understand is why, as far as I can tell, you didn't condemn the Republicans or if you did, only in mild terms, yet you compare the Obama Administration with the Nazis for doing exactly the same thing. More than a whiff of a double standard at work, I suggest.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

In addition to "freedom," he wants to put the "F" back in "F"ing idiot, too.

Wait for the stock post of the week.

If Obama is 'too hard' on the auto industry, America voices its dissaproval via instant stock market drops. If Obama does something and the market goes up, Obama is buying market points by throwing away our money somehow.

The angry right is angry, but not right.

When Europe had low approval ratings of Saint George 43, it was a sign of his macho independence. If the same happens with Obama, it's a sign Europe sees the same thnings the American right wing does.

We are in the new era of insanely angry tank top wearing AM radio listening Ditto yellers who won't rest until the rest of the country is as unhappy as they are.

Look at this topic. A CEO who helped drive his car company into the dirt wants 'save us from ourselves' money. If an investor said "Fine, but the idiot CEO has to go," Lamont would applaud the tough new management style. Since the government is the investor, however, Lamont has to turn it into some form of twisted propganda by comparing it to Nazi Germany (a sure sign of insanity if there ever was one.)

GM isn't controlled by the government, they want free money and the person with the money has some requirements. GM can always tell Obama to go to Hell and take his money with him.

It is a matter of scale...you make a false either/or argument. Either we criticize the economic jay walking of the previous administration or we cannot criticize the economic serial murder in this one.

Very few conservatives did not loudly criticize the Bush team and republican congress till 2006 for out of control spending and a refusal to veto pork laden bills. When the dems took over in 2006 (you are aware they seized both houses of congress in 2006) we stepped up the noise as we had a few rino's on the republican side selling out to that majority letting them spend at even greater rates and insert pork on an Olympic scale. We went ballistic when the Bush administration got in bed with the dems in congress to bring us the $125 billion rebate last summer and then Tarp I with its $400 billion was met with outrage by conservatives. Now we have Obama and since he took over, with his band a merry men in Congress, he has taken the budgeted and planned $400 billion deficit and the Bush added $500 billion in new deficit spending and added the Democrat $350 billion in Tarp II, the $1.2 trillion in the stimulus, Geithner's $1 trillion to reduce mortgage rates and his additional $1 trillion toxic asset plan making his deficit spending over $3.5 trillion, or more than the entire government revenues from all sources.

In addition to that, Obama signed a $420 billion omnibus pork and earmark filled bill as part of the regular budget and presented a $3.6 billion budget with a built in deficit of over a trillion....

Put in a couple of bullets...Bush spend a bit under $900 billion in deficits with $500 billion not planned

Obama planned for a $1.2 trillion deficit and has passed or advocated more than another $2 trillion.

$900 billion under Bush (apples)...$3.2 trillion under Obama (oranges)

The numbers are not comparable...one is economic jaywalking and the other economic serial murder.

Now add in the giant step towards Neo-Marxism under Obama and we have not only a difference in scale but in content.

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... Either we criticize the economic jay walking of the previous administration ... When the dems took over in 2006 (you are aware they seized both houses of congress in 2006) ...

Jaywalking?!!!!!!!

Seized?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can only assume you got your sight back on November 5, 2008. I hope you euthanized your assistance animal in a merciful, quick end, it would be mortified to death by this BS.

Those inept, power mad and corrupt dems in Congress have come up with another way to attack the rule of law.

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in a little-noticed move, the House Financial Services Committee, led by chairman Barney Frank, has approved a measure that would, in some key ways, go beyond the most draconian features of the original AIG bill. The new legislation, the "Pay for Performance Act of 2009," would impose government controls on the pay of all employees -- not just top executives -- of companies that have received a capital investment from the U.S. government. It would, like the tax measure, be retroactive, changing the terms of compensation agreements already in place. And it would give Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner extraordinary power to determine the pay of thousands of employees of American companies.

idiots in action

Congress changing compensation contracts and employment understanding, retroactively.

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Put in a couple of bullets...Bush spend a bit under $900 billion in deficits with $500 billion not planned

That leaves out the cost of the Iraq/Afghanistan wars. Something this administration has decided to make visible for the first time.

Oh, that's right, six years into a disastrous quagmire with no end in sight we didn't know we would still be there so it got signed off as an emergency funding bill every year. Yes, in the last request by the Democrats, but by Democrats who outsmarted the Republicans by extending the funding until a Democrat was in the Oval Office - which after eight years of Bushie was a no brainer. You loose again.

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Now add in the giant step towards Neo-Marxism under Obama and we have not only a difference in scale but in content.

Even if your apocalyptic vision were the slightest bit true, and not just a reordering and tally sheet of the last eight years under George and Dick, looking under the rugs and furntiture they'd thrown over the mounting problems and in the knick-knack drawers where they lost so many things like environmental concerns or just gave them away to their friends to pillage as they pleased, our choice would be one of full blown I-didn't-vote-for-this-shit fascism under GWB or your so called Neo-Marxism.

Fascism = the government cedes power to industry and only the few politically influential win, gaining 100's of billions in tax payer handouts (totally unfunded under the Republicans I might add!) to the energy and pharmaceutical industries and George's relatives in the school testing business, where no-bid contracts for shoddily done work goes unnoticed and unpunished. A system where the innocents are murdered and raped in public and private hidey holes and the government not only approves of it all but even thinks up ways to subvert the Constitution in order to justify its actions.

Neo-Marxism = I don't really know what visions you see when you close your eyes, JIMV, but I would assume it is related to Marxism where the populace wins, the wealthy loose power and education is valued.

Hmmmm, which one sounds better to you? As the Bushies have done it, Captialism sure isn't coming out smelling like a rose.

The cost of the war was chump change in terms of Obama spending, about $150 billion a year...Obama is blowing trillions and fast.

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Congress changing compensation contracts and employment understanding, retroactively.

Good grief!

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Despite the overwhelming 328-93 vote ...

Almost 100 Republicans voted for this bill!!!

That after saying just a few months ago they should let the companies pay the the Republican Party's highest donors (the Bushie's "have more's") earn and keep as much as they please. What principles you guys have!

Don't change the subject when you're loosing the argument.

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The cost of the war was chump change in terms of Obama spending, about $150 billion a year ...

Tell that to the families of those killed serving a fascist! Particularly the one's electrocuted by Cheney's no-bid friends who couldn't build a chickenhawk shit coop. Try explaining how their family member's lack of limbs or life changing brain injury due to insufficient armor or how caring for a loved one who must now live with PTSD that has gone on untreated because Bush didn't "support the troops" but just gave up sweets in solidarity with their suffering is "chump change". Tell that to those kids whose partents are now divorced or to those who have had a returning family member commit suicide. Explain that to the 100's of thousands of Iraqis and Afghans who are dead as a result of an illegal war of aggression. (And these are wars waged against countries Bush knew either didn't have an effective military or who couldn't even get a plane up in the air to defend their country. "Shock and Awe" my ass! You mean to tell me George would have invaded a well armed country like Iran or Suadi Arabia - a country where the 9-11 hijackers came from?)

Tell that to the 2 million refugees from Iraq or the thousands who have seen their crops and homes and innocent civilian brothers and sisters wiped out in Afghanistan. Tell that to the families of those beheaded or shot or stoned to death by the resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan because George couldn't stay focused on the real war. Tell that to the Sudanese and Darfurs who are being slaughtered by the hundreds on a daily basis by a regime far more evil that Saddam's but who Bush refused to assist even when his own Secretary of State labelled it genocide on a massive scale.

Remember that in a few years when a vet walks into a hospital and opens fire due to their emotional problems.

That's one more thing about you dumbfuck Republicans that really pisses me off. You only see this as dollars spent.

You come up with these stupid scenarios for doom and gloom when you aren't trying to scare us into conservative dig the bunker and stock up on the ammunition type fear and yet you never see the real world for what it actually is - a place George Bush, Dick Cheney and twelve years of Republican controlled Congress believing in three decades of Reaganism has absolutely and possibly irreversibly screwed up!

What difference do a few dollars make? You aren't going to pay for it anyway, your grandkids will as will all those directly affected by Bush's hubris, his wars and his ideologically driven policies.

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Neo-Marxism = I don't really know what visions you see when you close your eyes, JIMV, but I would assume it is related to Marxism where the populace wins, the wealthy loose power and education is valued.

Neo-Marxism is a very simple concept. Under the Soviets it was found that the state owning the means of production also meant the state owned their failures. They assumed responsibility for failure, which is what inevitably happesn when the government run business. Neo-Marxism is a result of that lesson. Now private companies still own the companies BUT government regulates them. When the result of heavy handed or inept regulation results in the death of the company, the government gets to hold show trials...like the hearings on AIG a week or so ago, which places public blame on the private owners and absolves government of their role in the failure...win/win.

Government still gets to control the company while avoiding the responsibility for their own stupid decisions.

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Congress changing compensation contracts and employment understanding, retroactively.

Good grief!

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Despite the overwhelming 328-93 vote ...

Almost 100 Republicans voted for this bill!!!

That after saying just a few months ago they should let the companies pay the the Republican Party's highest donors (the Bushie's "have more's") earn and keep as much as they please. What principles you guys have!

Don't change the subject when you're loosing the argument.

Thar bill was the unconstitutional tax the rich folk bill, not the current Franks program.

Good Heavens, what a nonsensical rant...Why does the left always need to 'exaggerate' facts and numbers all to heck when trying to make a point. Fibbing loses one credibility.

It all comes down to this:

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What difference do a few dollars make?

...

which brings me back to this

So now you see us heading into a Soviet style free fall?

Well, that's great then! We'll break up into individual states and those states that want gay marriage, health care for all, a belief in science and decent life styles for their citizens can go their own way. Utah can have polygamy. Ooooooh! Where's that leave birth control?!

And you know, of course, you won't have a military, you won't be able to transport goods over a federally maintained highway, rail or air freight system and your kids will believe the world is only 6k years old or else they'll be stoned to death? But Tom Tancredo will be thrilled, not only will teaching evolution be outlawed but the borders of each and every state will be militarized!

Go to Hell, JIMV, and take your talking heads and all of this fear mongering BullShit with you.

Another false either/or argument. This time the 'either we embrace TAO and his Neo-Marxism or we do nothing at all' argument.

We could simply let our founding principles of freedom and private property and personal responsibility prevail...

But that does not let the government control our every action and all our property.

[quoteGood Heavens, what a nonsensical rant...Why does the left always need to 'exaggerate' facts and numbers all to heck when trying to make a point. Fibbing loses one credibility.]

That's right, you knothead! None of that actually happened, did it? Just because you don't want to think about it, it didn't happen!

Geeeeeeez!

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I believe in individuals.

BullShit Rushbo talking point number 526.

But, if you really believe in individuals, read that last post of mine. You can even militarize the fence around your "individual" home. You won't have a street to drive on, utilities delivered at a resonable rate - if at all, anyone to protect you from the fertlizer plant dumping shit in your water or polluting the air you and the family you're "protecting" breath, a police or fire department to protect you or a highway to have goods deliverd because we'll all just be looking out for our individual self and not paying for the commons but, hey! that's what freedom's all about, right?

LOL!!!!

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Thar bill was the unconstitutional tax the rich folk bill, not the current Franks program.

"Despite the overwhelming 328-93 vote ... "

Oh! So now the nearly 100 Republicans who voted for the AIG bill have seen the light - and reversed their principles once again!

Sounds like Boehner got them in his office after classes, eh? What do you suppose these guys did during detention? Twitter about the Britney Spears concert? Deface government property by scratching their initials into a House of Representatives desk?

Yep, you gotta love someone who votes their conscience.

And this bill would have returned tax rates on the top 2% to the same levels they paid under Republican Presidents until Reagan started to rape the middle class. The country paid for an interstate highway (boo! Socialist programs at work under Eisenhower!), paid off its war debt and sent thousands of vets to college on the GI Bill who went on to grow the economy with new companies and new manufacturing jobs which made the US the Super Power of the world and sent men to the moon while the middle class expanded at its fastest rate to that point with that tax rate applied to only the top few wage earners.

Don't just make shit up and ignore things that are uncomfortable like the vets with no arms or legs.

It takes more than your parroting DNC talking points to make something real...The left has gotten by for years simply defining truth as anything that comes from one of their approved sources, like the NY Times or the DNC fax and all else is wrong or a lie, even when true.

When are you going to post something that matters, JIMV?

When are you going to admit your "individual" cannot exist in a modern world?

When are you going to admit all those results of Bush's wars and policies are real?

When are you going to admit taxes pay for what we all enjoy and have come to expect from a united effort?

When are you going to stop blaming someone else?

You obviously voted for more of what the Republicans have done. Now take some responsibility since that is always what you guys preach but don't live.

Like these chicken shit Republican Representatives who can't decide what their principles are until Rushbo tells them how to think, you react and live as a hypoctite and blame others for your own failures.

Your talking heads bullshit is still just more bullshit and you look more absurdly ridiculous each time you try to defend it or sweep away the facts by avoiding their repurcussions.

You've wandered off topic just because there is no defending the position that Republicans shouldn't accept substantial blame for where we find ourself and because the Republicans have no ideas other than do nothing and attack everyone who is trying to do something.

Pray for failure even if it brings down all but those who have had their pockets lined by the Republicans.

You've wandered off topic because you really don't know how to carry on this debate without getting down to those few things "you really know'. Isn't that how you put it months ago? You "really know politics"?

No, no you don't. You know how to repeat the close-minded bullshit you've been fed from people who are there to defend very narrow and very destructive to all of us special interests.

Politics is about compromise. You don't have a clue what that means. And until you do, you really should stay out of things you don't understand.

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When are you going to post something that matters, JIMV?

When are you going to admit your "individual" cannot exist in a modern world?

This says quite a bit about your politics. it was said better by another

"It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything."

Individuals mean nothing to modern Socialism.

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When are you going to admit all those results of Bush's wars and policies are real?

When you do not color those results with the patina of leftist rhetoric and stick to the facts.

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When are you going to admit taxes pay for what we all enjoy and have come to expect from a united effort?

They do? News to me. Sounds like a variation of your very popular false 'either/or' argument. Either we give government all our money or we have no services. Actually, taxes pay for bureaucrats more than anything else.

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When are you going to stop blaming someone else?

When other folk stop trying to inflict their Marxism on me and my country

The rest of your post is simply invective backed by zip so I ignore it.

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It takes more than your parroting DNC talking points to make something real...The left has gotten by for years simply defining truth as anything that comes from one of their approved sources, like the NY Times or the DNC fax and all else is wrong or a lie, even when true.

JIMV, the great part here is that after Bush's first term, the voters were so impressed by 12 years of a Republican majority in the legislature and the terrific job Bush 43 was doing that they changed the parties around in Congress.

Two years after you say the blues began wrecking things, the voters gave them an even larger margin in both houses. (It may be true about wrecking things, but compared to the vandalism they were witnessing performed by Dick/Bush, they opted for the lesser of two evils.)

After 8 years of Bush 43 and his enlightened rule, the voters changed parties in executive branch, too.

I think the best thing for the country is to keep up the same BS rhetoric you are using now, and we may see the Senate go 70-30!

The louder the red party zombies yell for brains, the higher the vote goes for the blue party.

Keep up the good work. Life through red colored lenses must be a frightful thing.

Hey, can you find me a first world right wing country to use as an example of enlightned rule?

Which country is governed most as you would like?

That is true Buddah...the voters did buy into the dems propaganda. What else would one expect? They controlled the media and they promised free stuff and McCain is a RINO only grudgingly accepted by conservatives.

Still, with all that said...VERY scary things are happening. Are you aware that the total recovery spending has almost reached the entire GDP for this year?

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March 31 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. government and the Federal Reserve have spent, lent or committed $12.8 trillion, an amount that approaches the value of everything produced in the country last year, to stem the longest recession since the 1930s.

New pledges from the Fed, the Treasury Department and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. include $1 trillion for the Public-Private Investment Program, designed to help investors buy distressed loans and other assets from U.S. banks. The money works out to $42,105 for every man, woman and child in the U.S. and 14 times the $899.8 billion of currency in circulation. The nation

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Hey, can you find me a first world right wing country to use as an example of enlightned rule?

Keeping with the spirit of the thread, I think that would be Germany in 1933.

Ya'know, I almost wrecked the car the day I heard Limbaugh say the Left was unfairly painting the Nazi's as conservatives. Talk about rewriting history!

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Can you say this is a prudent economic program...spending 5 years worth of total government revenues as debt?

Can you say it was prudent to allow over 31,000 American causalties in an illegal war? Those are veterans who will be provided care by the US taxpayer for decades to come. Not to count the loss of a productive member of the citizenry and all those who must provide care when funds are insufficient.

Not to mention the families in numerous other countries who have been affected by misbegotten US actions. We will pay for that too. One way or another, we will pay for decades to come.

THESE AREN'T JUST DOLLARS AT STAKE HERE, FELLA!!! THIS ISN'T LEFT WING EXAGERATION!!! THERSE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD THEIR LIFE DESTROYED BY GWB AND DICK CHENEY ALONG WITH A COMPLIANT REPUBLICAN CONGRESS WHO ALLOWED THE DISASTROUS POLICIES TO ENDURE ONLY FOR THEIR OWN POLITICAL GAIN. YOU CANNOT TRUN YOUR HEAD AND SAY THIS DOESN'T EXIST OR THAT IT DOESN'T AFFECT EVERYTHING WE DO AS A COUNTRY FROM NOW FORWARD.

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/

http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=iraq%20war%20casualties&type=

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Can you say this is a prudent economic program...spending 5 years worth of total government revenues as debt?

Can you say it was prudent to allow over 31,000 American causalties in an illegal war?

An OPINION that has nothing to do with the issue of our time. You have to drag yourself out of fantasy land and into March of 2009...The left is spending money that has not even been coined yet...and won't till your second grader is in High school.

The war is won...whining about it has gone from being anti American to seditious to simply silly. Put it behind you and move into the Obama years...that fellow is a clear threat to the future, not a bugaboo from the past.

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Can you name one legal war?

You shoulda seen my buddy's divorce.

In addition to being a legal war, he was subsequently legally raped and legally pillaged, in that order.