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March 26, 2009 - 5:46pm
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Robert Reina
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Ncdrawl, I, too, enjoy Robert Reina's musical reviews. Unfortunately, within your unfathomable pigeonholing system, I, too, am among those who dwell within the "hordes of uppity (classical) music listeners."
Your mask is working-class macho, apparently. RRRRRUFFFF! Me TUFFF. And GRUFF. No fairy-ass Haydn Quartets in MY cave!! Me like RAW SONIC MEAT!!!
"Uppity," indeed! You either love music or you don't, especially from the perspective of "listener." And if you love music, you love all music. Truly, out of my roughly 5,000 total CD's, LP's, and SACD's, probably 3,500 include Mozart, Sweet Henry Purcell, Palestrina, Bach, Britten, Berlioz, Elgar, Rameau, and all those effete freaks (among my favorites) who toiled in the middle ages for various Middle-Eastern Potentates. But, the OTHER 1,500, roughly, give me slam-dancing, be-bop, and filthy back-street grunge.
Do YOU own the recording of Stephan Mejia's latest performance, with his garage mates? I do. And I absolutely love it. Music is music.
I would submit, as a hypothesis, that YOU are the "uppity" and "snooty" snob. Yeah, right. YOU. If it images beauty and is more than 3 months old, it doesn't belong in your lofty pantheon. You flex and spit, but there is nothing behind it but reverse snobbery. And snobbery is snobbery. In reverse, park, or drive. You have your little club, and everbody who showers (occasionally) and uses a napkin is "uppity" and undeserving.
"Uppity." My wrinkled old ass! Since when was music EVER classifiable into "uppity" and "non-uppity"? Music is universal. If you claim to be a music lover, you love ALL of it. Otherwise, you are just posing in front of the mirror.
Happy "lower" tunes.
I listen to NPR at work on a Tovoli Model One. I'm uppity and proud. Semper Fi.
Semper Fi, Lamont. Once in the crotch, forever in the crotch.
Can't wait to fix me up some o' them flapjacks. Might thin down the molasses with a little white lightnin.
I guess you can also call Glenn Kotche, the Wilco drummer as uppity, too, since his solo work's often considered avant garde classical & he also collaborates with a lot of modern music ensembles? I think I know what you're referring to as uppity music and uppity listeners but there are composers and performers taking crazy chances in the classical world right now... and you can hardly go through some Animal Collective or LCD Soundsystem album without hearing Steve Reich's huge influence, not to mention how you can frequently hear the influence of Messiaen in Radiohead's songs & the guitaist Johnny Greenwood's known to incorporate Tristan chords in his compositions, too.
The line between 'classical' and 'popular/alternative/rock/whatever' is increasingly getting blurred. My friend Taya runs the concert space Le Poisson Rouge, which it used to be the legendary Village Gate... and if you see their schedule, you can go see ?uestlove from the Roots or Sebastian Tellier, as well as go listen to songs by the composer Peter Maxwell Davies and music by Elliott Carter and Isang Yun.
http://lepoissonrouge.inticketing.com/evlist.php?sid=&events=&searchstr=&email=
This just all means we're living in a very volatile, interesting times, in terms of music. It's just a shame that we don't really EXPERIENCE this exciting sea change that's really taking place in the real world in the audiophile community and much of its press. I love the 3 B's as much as the next guy, but frankly, I do find that the listening habits of classical audiophiles (at least reflected in the forums and audiozines) seem dogmatic, entrenched in the safe waters. I know there are scores of classical music listeners out there who are not merely content in listening to their cherished Deccas and Shaded Dogs, but are really taking chances. But they are not much heard from around here. Maybe they really don't exist. Am I wrong? Then let me hear it.
Self, I listen to everything that wanders into hearing range. And, if it is music, I love it all. I prefer Ravel to Radiohead. So shoot me. BUT. This is not an entrenched preference. I DO listen to Radiohead, just to keep things honest in the ever-changing present. And that is what music is, to me, an ever-changing present.
Yes. I DO keep going back to Vivaldi, Handel, and even Ginestara (God! has it been THAT long? Is Ginestara NOW too dead to count?). But, I do also love what gets written tomorrow and played the day after.
I don't see any listening session as "taking chances." What the fuck is to lose? Get a radio, like Lamont. I have one, but it isn't as cool lookin' as Lamont's. When you get into the car, spin the dial. Now, THAT's where I broaden my horizons.
Still, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Mahler, Britten, Albeniz, and all those others keep callin' me back. And I keep comin' back, because THAT is where the action is. This has nothing to do with risk, but everything to do with my own apprehensions of beauty.
I am not sure about your use of the term, "risk." What's at stake, after all? Just bring me the music, and I'll decide. ANY music. But. I WILL decide...
As usual, I agree with most of what you write. I'm just quibblin' over the fine print...
Happy tunes.
Or as my dear Aunt Maude used to say - "There's no snob like a working class snob". ( sung to the tune of Massive Attack's 'Protection'.)
All good, yes. But do you mean Robert Baird? RB's the one who wrote April's "Recording of the Month" on Jason Isbell's new record. Robert Reina is one of our equipment reviewers, and is a member of the band Attention Screen.
I believe that you mean Robert Baird, the current Music Editor of Stereophile, and not Robert Reina, a longtime equipment reviewer for Stereophile.
For what it's worth, Robert Baird never met a boring singer-songwriter he didn't like. Bon Iver is by far, and by a very wide margin, the most boring singer-songwriter I've ever heard, that is based on what little I heard before falling fast asleep. And this is no mean feat since Mr. Iver has managed to be several orders of magnitude more boring than Iron & Wine, another one Mr. Baird's snoozefest favorites.
There are American League pitchers with much better batting averages than Baird. In fact, Baird is so unrelentingly off the mark that in the name of honesty Stereophile's Recording of the Month feature should be renamed "Recording to Avoid (unless you're having trouble sleeping)".
Under Mr. Baird's stewardship Stereophile's music coverage has become even more laughable than TAS's equipment coverage and again, that is not that easy to do.
And the best part of trashing Robert Baird here on the forum is that he will NEVER EVER respond since he NEVER reads any of these posts in spite of the fact that JA and SM make such a big stink about their editors and writers being active on this forum. Lies, damn lies. Note to JA & SM, please leave the lying to the professionals: our elected officals.
I love bluegrass and classic country music, jazz, folk music, and anything with a good melody or "tune" that "swings" or "flows" in a coherent, pleasing structure; and that certainly includes most of the great classical music of the 18th and 19th centuries.
Unfortunately, much 20th-century "classical" music (Glass, Schoenberg, etc.) is largely an intellectual exercise in abstract forms that is not worth listening to, in my opinion (R. Strauss and Stravinsky are certainly exceptions, however...among others).
Similarly, I love Buddy Holly, the Monroe Brothers, Ry Cooder, The Mills Brothers, Flatt & Scruggs, The Any Old Time String Band, Tony Rice, Bill Clifton, The Chenille Sisters, Tony Auldridge, the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, Tony Trischka, and Mozart and Beethoven
Unfortunately, the popular music and country music of the past 30 years has been 99% garbage, produced mostly by no-talent self-absorbed substance abusers, whose one collective positive attribute is that they burn out and go away as quickly as sycamore leaves in the fall.
Some wise man once observed that 99% of all of the music created at any given point in history is worthless trash. If people are still buying it after 40 or 50 or 200 years, that tells you there is quality there. As for the rest; it will go away quickly, and it deserves to.
The trash you seem to be so fond of will be gone and forgotten in 20 years; and most of us will cheer its absence.
Those of us who like high quality music are "real people" too. Our music has shown its quality by its staying power; I doubt if the pap you are so fond of will sell two records 10 years from now.
And, by the way: I haven't worn a tie for 30 years except for a friend's funeral, and most of the classical music lovers I know wear blue jeans. You are so far off base it is pathetic. "Uppity listener"??? That describes your attitude perfectly! Why don't you get a banjo or mandolin, and spend your time learning how to play it? That would be more constructive than trying to trash those who do not share your highly dubious musical tastes.
Why would he get the name right?
That's highly appropriate, since everything else is a mile off base...lol.
If it walks like a duck, and it's in season...shoot it!
I agree with a lot of your points but I'd submit that not everyone would be as open-minded as you in even taking a chance on postwar classical music. They won't even go there. Not only that, you say 'bring me the music' but I don't think there are enough avenues of information and discussion in the forums and audiozines about such music, so it's not even 'brought.' I don't mean 'risk' in, dude, listen to some theoretically challenging and dense piece of shit they call avant garde classical music. Maybe you're right & I'm using the term flippantly. All it means is that one needs to open up, give such music a chance, not approach it from some intellectual angle but approach it as something stimulating and sensual, as music itself. That's all. The single most moving concert I went to in the last few years - classical and popular - was the performance of Steve Reich's Music for 18 Musicians at the intimate Miller Theater two years ago. The music was so primally beautiful & the performance so perfect, that the rush of pure emotion you felt couldn't really be processed in the brain.
For a long time in the 80's many concert halls were stuck with meat-&-potatoes programming, thinking that the general audience would not embrace something new. And that kind of entrenched thinking almost killed the vitality of the industry. What's exciting about classical music now is that orchestras like LA Phil, with their Disney hall and exciting music directors, went against that established order and started programming Saariaho along with Ravel, etc. And not only did that gamble pay off and fill the seats, it revitalized the entire cultural scene in downtown LA. (Cheers to Esa Pekka Salonen... I have high hopes for Dudamel, but Salonen will be missed.)
Another example is that small classical labels are putting out more new music by exciting new artists, more than ever. This slowdown of the musical conglomerates has been a blessing in disguise as it led to more innovations by these small labels. And I don't remember a period in my relatively young life when there has been such an infusion of genuinely INTERESTING young musicians and virtuosos, not just some competition racehorses.
And that's what I mean by 'risk.' It just means exposure and openness, catching a whiff of the new air. I'm not implying that some of us DON'T do that. Many of us do. But even evidenced in this forum, the prejudice against "modern music" seems to be coming from the exact kind of reactionary sentiment of the establishment in the classical music industry that refused to shake up their programming. As I said, the gap between the classical and popular is narrowing as we speak. Most likely, though,it was always narrower than we thought. The tape loops in the Beatles' "Revolution 9" were influenced by Stockhausen, as well as the song "Day in the Life"... not to mention how you can see Stockhausen on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts album cover.
But more than anything, I think the audio writers have a responsibility, too. I already mentioned WP's excellent coverage of some music in either equipment reviews or 'Phile specials. JVS also. But I think everyone in the audio press could definitely do more to catch us up.
Right ON, jazzfan!!!
Tell it like it IS!!!
Yes, I meant Robert Baird. Stupid mistake.
You have tin ears and no taste. Bon Iver is quite a good songwriter, and "The Creek Drank the Cradle" from Iron and Wine is one of the best albums of the past 20 years. If you can't see that...
I'll tell you who I miss; Carla Maria Giulini!
I had season tickets to the Los Angeles Philharmonic every year he was conductor, and loved it.
He, too, programmed a fair amount of "modern" music, but with more discrimination and taste than Salonen, as far as I am concerned. I actually liked some of his modern selections.
While I applaud Salonen's intent, I very rarely find myself with the slightest urge to ever hear any of the "modern" music he programs more than once (in some cases, once is too many times...lol).
You didn't play "Streets of Bakersfield"???
Show a little respect for Buck there, podnuh...lol.
I'm no snob, friend. I just call em as I see em. I am a singer. I work with/ around those "classical" people. Boorish pricks, the vast majority.
The only thing I can "see" while I'm asleep are my dreams and in my dreams the musical soundtrack is jazz.
Between the overly sensitive singer-songwriters like Bon Iver and Iron & Wine, the current emo branch of the rock music tree and the screamers of the American Idol school of singing, I'll take highly dissident avant-garde modern classical any day.
Hell, I'll even take the musical garbage that consistently fills HP's much lauded "Super Disc List" over just about any of Mr. Baird's Recordings of the Month.
I play pedal steel, mandolin, banjo, guitar, sing, and piano.
You are an old guy, so ill look over the crotchetiness...
oh, there will be folks listening to the bands ive mentioned..youll likely never hear about it though. youve probably never even heard of the bands I mentioned.
theres a lot of good shit outside of the mainstream. most never hear about it.
(I consider Tony Rice, Trishka, well pretty much all the folks you mentioned to be "mainstream" in their respective genres)
I LOVE Giulini. Have you heard his account of Britten's War Requiem on the BBC label? Too good...
Still, I'd have to say that a lot of general concert-goers and critics alike will probably disagree with you on the programming choice of Salonen the past few years. A lot of the music he's chosen has not just tickled the priggish critics but has won over the public, too, especially the younger listeners.
And I'd argue that when it comes to modern music, I'd have to say Salonen's perhaps more "discriminating" and has a keener ear than Giulini, as that's really his forte, both as a conductor and composer.
But I hear you. We all listen differently.
"I am a singer"???
That is your profession???
What do you sing, and where do you sing it?
Since you make a point of it, give us a clue what you are talking about, please.
Bravo on your musicianship!! I bumble on the guitar and piano with my short, reluctant fingers...; "play" is more than I would claim to do.
[quoteBetween the overly sensitive singer-songwriters like Bon Iver and Iron & Wine, the current emo branch of the rock music tree and the screamers of the American Idol school of singing, I'll take highly dissident avant-garde modern classical any day.
Hell, I'll even take the musical garbage that consistently fills HP's much lauded "Super Disc List" over just about any of Mr. Baird's Recordings of the Month.
you do that, fella. Stick to the jazz "reviews" as this singer/songwriter/rock thing puts you of your element.
(didnt you like decemberists? talk about pretentious shlock!
)
With all due respect, Jazzfan, I believe you are confusing your own taste in music with absolute value, a common fallacy.
BTW, Stereophile's Recordings of the Month are chosen by the editorial team, even if the actual review is written by Robert Baird. The Bon Iver album that so upset you was my choice, the Ryan Adams album in February and the Mogwai album in January were both Stephen Mejias picks, etc.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
We never made "a big stink" about our writers participating here. Very long ago, in response to a thread I can hardly recall, I made the point that this forum presents a great opportunity for our readers to interact with our writers. I still believe this to be true. I resent your abusing our hospitality here by calling us liars.
Getting back to the music: I agree with ncdrawl that Sam Beam is an excellent songwriter. The Iron & Wine albums are some of my favorites. And Bon Iver's For Emma, Forever Ago is, in my opinion, gorgeous -- almost a masterpiece -- but I can see how one might not enjoy it.
I think the thing that got several people upset here is that you seemed to be trivializing the worth of classical music and implying that anyone who likes it is some sort of boor or effete snob (uppity listeners...??...lol).
As for "mainstream", as applied to music, I think that word implies that a lot of people like such music and HAVE liked it over some substantial period of time...duhhhh...does that make it bad? You seem to imply that it does.
You position seems to be that you don't care for "mainstream" music because your taste is superior to almost everyone else's; talk about an elitist boorish snob attitude!!!!
You are almost as bad as me...rofl.
No wonder you piss people off...lol.
Yes, I am a Bass.(to be more specific, I am a "dark" bass or Basso "Profondo" It used to be my full-time gig, (before I was in the military) but during my time stationed in Europe, I did it at night and on weekends. Now I live in the US and , like I did in Europe, sing when I am not working(I work for a Government Agency). Ive sung Messiah, Verdi Requiem, Poulenc Gloria, St. Matthew's Passion, Monteverdi's Marienvesper, Mozart Requiem, Elijah and many , many others. Sparafucile in Rigoletto, Leporello in Don Giovanni, Sarastro in The Magic Flute.. I've Sung the Role of Caiphas in JC Superstar more times than I can count, and "Smudge" in Forever Plaid..countless times. right now I am gearing up for a recital. my real preference is for Appalachian music and 4 part "Southern" Gospel. I could do the singing thing full time, and may (again) as my voice matures more(I am still rather young as Basses go), but right now I am enjoying being at home with my pregnant wife and 2 year old daughter more than being in front of a crowd. Do a lot of voice over work and radio spots too.
Bravo once more!! Very Nice.
Thanks for the clarification, JA.
My biggest complaint with Mr. Baird is not so much his musical taste but rather what I feel is the second class status that the music section of Stereophile has sunk to under his reign. Yes I understand that certain issues of the magazine (the recommended components issues and the records to die for issue) feature truncated music review sections but that doesn't necessarily mean that only two or three recordings should be reviewed. Have you ever heard of capsule reviews?
And my comments on Mr. Baird's lack of presence on the forum stem more from the fact that he is listed as the moderator of the music related forums and yet he has never responded to the long standing requests made ages ago by myself and others for the addition of more categories (country, world, experimental, high resolution, etc.) within the "Audio Software" section of the forum.
Now that I have yours and Stephen's attention maybe this isue will finally be addressed.
And finally, the music review section of the magazine is very important. After all, while many readers (myself included) enjoy reading the equipment reviews and often find them very useful (again, myself included) when purchasing new equipment, most of us do not purchase new equipment on a monthly basis but many of us do purchase new music on a very regular basis. The software side of audiophilia is always affordable especially when compared to some of the statement products of the various equipment manufacturers and is really the driving force behind all things audiophile.
More music coverage, both in the magazine and online, please.
I never said that Bon Iver or Iron & Wine were pretentious, I said that they were boring. Pretentious I can deal with, it's boring that puts me to sleep.
And yes the Decemberists may be a tad pretentious but at least they're fun and very enjoyable in concert as well. I had the misfortune of seeing Iron & Wine live a few years back when he was touring with Calexico and the only reason I didn't fall fast asleep was because I was standing and since the floor was covered with empty beer cups I couldn't very lay down, as much as I wanted to.
I Don't hear boring at all when I hear Bon Iver or Sam Beam. I hear well written songs. No, it isnt gwar, slayer, helmet, the misfits, or pennywise...more introspective and soothing.. look past your prejudice to the core of the matter. great songwriting. if youve ever tried to write a song and realize just how hard the damn process is, you could appreciate those bands for what they are, not degrade them for what they are not.
the creek drank the cradle is amazing. nothing short.
also, check out Easton Stagger Phillips(one for the ditch) or Slobberbone's "Barrel Chested" or The Replacements TIM< Richard Buckner--Devotion and Doubt.. SCUD Mountain Boys Massachusetts.....
ncdrawl,
You do realize you're a musician debating with people that are basically tone deaf?
Richard Buckner!
I like him, as well.
Buckner's okay, but I prefer Walter Beethoven. As for Fred Cage and all the other minimalists? They make Billy Joe Bob Bruckner sound laconic.
Ncdrawl, send us a demo tape highlighting your glorious pipes. We'll be the judges of your musicianship and talent.
Can you do "Duelin' Banjos" with a basso ground? I would be singularly impressed. Hey, Ethan gave us a few minutes of bad cello-thumpin', to prove to us that the genius behind the filters was conceived in the womb of Polyhymnia. The least YOU could do is give us belt or two of YOUR dulcet tones.
Buddha, are you gonna be a bad boy again?
Wait. BUCKNER, not "Bruckner." My bad. Saaaay...isn't he the guy who booted the ground ball that gave the Mets the series a few years back??
I've heard say that he can play the harp with a first-baseman's mitt on both hands. After seeing him fumble THAT two-hopper, I can well believe it!!
At least he tried. Sigh.
OMG, I didn't realize that Gwar was a real band. I used to love to watch Beavis and Butthead years ago, and they mentioned that band a lot. But I thought it was just a fictitious band name made up for the show. Shows how out of touch I am. LOL!
You know, sometimes live music can be crap!
I know, live...IS!
But, for an example, I love the recordings by Asleep at the Wheel, but...when I went to a concert by them years ago, it really sucked; they had the volume up to about 150db in the club and were obviously drunk, tired, and didn't give a shit. After plugging our ears with our fingers for about an hour to try to get the volume where we could more or less withstand it, we finally had to leave. Bad news.
Oh yeah, they've been around since the mid 80s. when I was coming up and rebelling against my southern/country/old timey roots, GWAR was a fixture. The live shows(ive seen about 20 or so) are insane. Also saw Slayer, Misfits, Dead Kennedys, Bad Religion, Sepultura, Helmet , Op Ivy and many others before coming full circle back to my acoustic roots. Cant listen to that loud stuff any more. Shreds my nerves and my ears.
You're welcome, Jazzfan.
That, I am afraid, is my fault. Paper, printing, and distribution have become so expensive these past few years that I have not been able to publish as large issues I would have wished. (A situation that has become exacerbated this past winter by the economic turndown.) I therefore have to make uncomfortable decisions each month about, for example, whether to publish more record reviews or one more equipment report. I can't do both, unfortunately, and while I share your appreciation for the importance of the magazine's music section, the reality is that the vast majority of readers buy the magazine for a) equipment reviews, b) "Recommended Components," c) the monthly columns, and d) technical features.
We have been running more music articles on our website, such as Fred Kaplan's Jazz blog, but the paper magazine must give priority to what readers predominantly want to read.
A good point, and I hope that Robert does respond.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Once again John, thank you for being so honest. I must confess that I do not make full use of the non-forum side of the Stereophile and so I was unaware of Fred Kaplan's jazz blog. I find mr. Kaplan to be one of the jazz critics writing today and I will give his blog a thorough going over. May I suggest that you put more references to Stereophile's online music coverage in the magazine so that those reader's who crave more music coverage and reviews will know where to turn.
For what it's worth, I just took a quick glance at Kaplan's blog and I like what I'm seeing - intelligent writing, thoughtful comments and, here's the best part, responses to the comments by Mr. Kaplan. Now that's the way online communication is supposed to work!
There is a TON of great music occurring in every 'genre' of music these days, and once I took the chance of looking into areas of taste that I would never look, I found even more great music. 'Ear of the Beholder', even if they are wearing tuxes, and smell like Yuppies. Stuff I thought was crap in my teens, turns out is great in my 30's and 40's... I'm listening, please show me...