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March 17, 2009 - 5:21pm
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While it is not the whole story, the Meridian's minimum-phase "apodizing" filter does contribute to its sound quality. A similar filter is available on the inexpensive Cambridge DACMagic.
Sam Tellig liked the sound of the DACMagic when he reviewed it in March. Might be worth checking out.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
JA, have you had a chance to hear/review the more affordable G08.2 yet? I heard that G08.2 also uses the apodizing filter & wonder if the SQ, as well as the technology, has trickled down...
Thanks John ! For $399 that Cambridge sounds pretty damn good but still allow me to drool for a Meridian system....
Sorry. no. My next Meridian review will be of the DSP7200 loudspeaker, which Martin Colloms tells me he is mightily impressed by.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I've been running an 808.2 for something like four months now and find myself listening to as much RedBook CD as LP's. Something I never thought would happen. I still don't like the look of the Meridian. All their latest designs look to me like something that belongs in a dental surgery, not a listening room.
I suspect the technology will filter down very quickly to other brands and Meridian's own line and that this is about as good as Redbook CD will get.
In fact it's so good it's put on hold any ideas I had of exploring SACD or BLlueray. Meridian's speakers I don't like. I spent an evening with a top all Meridian system , including the 808.2 and it left me cold. Nothing wrong you could point your finger at but nothing that gave me goosebumps either.
Thank you for that Bach. I agree that the Meridian CD player looks more like medical equipment than a high tech CD player but I guess when you have a player that good people are willing to forgo that part. Interesting about the speakers..I was reading the brochure on their site and I guess with the amplified CD player they're pitching their speakers. I'm not sure how many audio companies can do speakers, amp and players all top rated.
Those interested in the filter technology you describe should go to the Ayre website and under "What's New" there find their "MP" filter White Paper, which is very interesting and quite readable.
So, John; how much is Ayre going to charge to upgrade our C5-Xe players to the MP configuration? I couldn't find any information on the website except that an upgrade was available.
John;
In reading the comparisons you made between the Ayre and Meridian in your article, it sounds as if you did all the comparisons using only the DIGITAL OUTPUT of the Ayre; you describe feeding the digital signal thru the DCS and into the Meridian's coaxial digital input. In other words, it sounds as if you were using the the Ayre only as a transport, and the Meridian was performing the D-to-A conversion function during the comparisons. Is this correct, or am I confused? I mean, it sounds like all you did was compare transports.
You then say that "The Ayre's reconstruction filter was set to Listen...", which further confuses me, because using the digital output and feeding it as you describe would bypass the Ayre's DAC circuits, so who cares how it was set?
This all seems contradictory and confusing; I am totally confused, anyway...lol!
Did you ever compare the ANALOG outputs of the Ayre to the ANALOG outputs of the Meridian? If you did, then the article misleads me into thinking that you did not (you DO begin by talking about matching levels, but then immediately describe a digital connection, not an analog connection...this is VERY VERY confusing!!!).
Also; IF you compared the analog outputs of the two units, one would assume that the balanced outputs would have been used...but you don't mention that either....
I did this so I could compare the Meridian's DAC with the Ayre's DAC with both fed the exact same data in exact time synchronization. You will see on p.123 that I did mention setting the Ayre's reconstruction filter to "listen" for these comparisons, meaning that I must have been auditioning its analog output.
Yes of course, both using the Ayre as a transport and either playing duplicate copies of the same disc on both players or, as I describe in the text on p.124, a DVD-A on the Ayre and a CD of the same music on the Meridian, to see how close CD playback with the Meridian filter approached true hi-rez performance.
My apologies if my text was confusing. I have reread it and I really don't think I was unclear. But as I wrote the review, I admit I am not the best judge.
All the comparisons between the Ayre and the Meridian were performed using the balanced outputs of both.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
My apologies, I don't know what the charge is going to be.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
John;
Thank you for clearing that up.
It really was obvious that you must have done SOME of the comparisons using the analog outputs. The problem, for me, was that when you described some qualitative differences in the two units, it was not possible to tell which mode of comparison you were in at at that point, which was the point of confusion for me.
That made it kind of difficult to make sense of what was going on. Usually you will say something like "comparing the analog outputs of the two units, I heard x, y , and z....and then feeding both digital signals to the Meridian I heard p, and q...."
Hmmmm...wait a second. If you were using the digital output of the Ayre, how could you be comparing its DAC with anything? Wouldn't you be BYPASSING its DAC completely by using the digital output? Now I am am confused all over again; dammit! Hell, just ignore me; I am sure this must be clear to everyone but me; my brain must have quit working properly when I turned 60....
By the way, I got an e-mail from Michael Wiedmaier at Ayre, and he says $200 is the price of the upgrade on the C5, payable to my local dealer. They apparently want my dealer to handle payment, but they said I could ship it direct and they would ship it back to me direct also, since I live 150 miles from where I bought it now. I guess Ayre does not want to deal with the payment themselves (at least I don't have to drive all the way in to Santa Monica...lol...the drive from hell; but not nearly as bad as Manhattan...).
Maybe I will wait to see what you think of the difference after you have the upgrade done; I am not exactly suffering with the sound quality of the unit now, lol. I am sure you will publish an update after you hear the difference; I will look for it.
Thanks Again;
FRM
Well, maybe if $17,000 intimidates you (it sure as hell eliminates ME as a buyer; the $6K for the Ayre was a strain for me...lol), there is always the Ayre C7 to consider at $3000.
As long as you don't care about SACD, the C7 is just about as good as it gets, I think. Personally, I have about 100 SACD titles and enjoy them, but it ain't that big a deal for me. If I had it to do over, I would probably save the difference and go for the C7.
My apologies if I am still not being clear. This was the set-up: the digital output of the Ayre C-5xe was fed to the digital input of the Meridian (via the dCS 972, which was used to convert the Ayre's AES/EBU output to S/PDIF). The analog outputs of the Ayre were fed to one of the preamp's inputs; the analog outputs of the Meridian were fed to another of the preamp's inputs.
When a CD was played in the Ayre, by switching preamp inputs with the remote control, I could directly compare the analog outputs of the Ayre and Meridian without any interruption in the music. With the Ayre's and Meridian's analog output levels matched, if there was no difference in the sound, switching the preamp inputs would have had no effect whatsoever - the music would keep on playing regardless. However, there were the small differences I commented on in the review.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Hi John,
In what way then can Meridian justify the $15000 price tag for technology already available in a 10 times cheaper product, especially considering the fact that the Meridian enclosure appeared to be made of cheap plastic one finds in a sub-$500 CD player?
Petre
The digital filter is just one aspect of the product's design. The Meridian is also a disc player and analog/digital preamplifier. It also offers an encrypted data output to send hi-rez data to Meridian active speakers.
That's not correct. The Meridian is based on a metal card-frame chassis with what appears to be cast front panel/side pillars. Its construction is first-rate and fully commensurate with its price.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I can also add that the thing is fricking exquisite. It feels like some sort of unimaginably smooth jewel.
So I stand corrected that the Meridian is not plastic wrapped, but a metal card-frame chassis is still nothing special when compared with an Ayre, being milled from a solid billet of Aluminum.
The fact that the Meridian is twice the price of the Ayre is beyond common sense.
"The Meridian is based on a metal card-frame chassis with what appears to be cast front panel/side pillars. Its construction is first-rate and fully commensurate with its price."
"I can also add that the thing is fricking exquisite. It feels like some sort of unimaginably smooth jewel. "
Aha!
Now you have it down to my level, lol.
That IS quite clear.
The Ayre was the transport at all times, and the switching allowed you to compare the filter (and analog output) circuits.
Got it!
Thanks very much for your patience.
FRM
The Ayre plauer is not constructed that way. It is a conventional aluminum-panel box, with a machined front-panel. Very well-made but conventional in its construction. I suspect that you are confusing the C-5xe with Ayre's KX-R preamp or MX-R power amp which are CNC-carved from solid aluminum stock and are priced accordingly.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Wow seems like a lot of people who have an Ayre CD player are upset with the rating of the Meridian...
John,
I enjoyed reading your detailed review and tests on the $17,000 Meridian.
I have been in the happy situation to have heard Both - Meridian & Cary's Top-of-the line CD players, side by side, for an extended period.
Clearly, the Meridian is a Top Notch product, with a DAC interface thrown in !
Despite your verdict, I believe that your review has not appropriately judged the US $ 17,000 Meridian.
While it did trump the US $ 6,000 Ayre ( A THIRD of the Price ) ... it SHOULD have. That was like comparing boys to men... Not a fair work-out for the men.
It would be great to read the $17K Meridian pitted against similarly priced competion.
Maybe you could do that in a follow up ?
Also a general comment.... when I read reviews that 2 ( usually VERY different ) components sound almost identical, I wonder if the reviewer's system is being pushed beyond the limits of what it can resolve ?
Maybe another (better) system is required to fully review / appreciate the component being reviewed ?
It is dangerous to judge on price alone. Both the Ayre and the Meridian are statement products from companies that are heavily engineering-based. The Ayre has also been my reference for player performance since I bought it 3 years ago, so I felt the comparison appropriate.
My next digital review, planned for the July issue, will be of the $24k Boulder 1021, another statement player that will also play hi-rez files from DVD-R. I will be comparing the Boulder with both the Meridian and the revised Ayre.
Or it could be that at the very highest level of perfomance, you are witnessing convergent design.
Maybe, maybe not.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Having not had the opportunity yet(Thanks Stephen for helping to get the subscription thing fixed)to read the article I am not sure if you compared the Meridian to the Bryston BCD-1 reviewed in February's issue...but in that one the comments seemed too suggest it was near state of the art and is 5 times less expensive...just wondering as the two were reviewed so close you probably had an opportunity to hear both at the same time...
Good Suggestion......
The Meridian 808i.2 could be 'pitted' against other single box players.
Not the EMM or Teac Esoteric or dCS Scarlati [all being multi box machines] but copmare the Meridian against other 1 box CD Players - Accuphase / Nagra / Bow Technologies / EMM [1 Mox] dcS Puccini etc. etc.
Basically @ 17/- K US this is an expensive player & needs a 'clear' direction if the signatures on the player [of the founders] is justified or is it just an eye wash !!!
I'll certainly be staying tuned for that one.
My reading of John's article is that for three times the price, he could barely hear a difference...sometimes.
The current issue has the Ayre still rated A+ in RC; does it get any better?
How could that upset the owner of a C5?; I'll guarantee you that I am still extremely happy with mine; it sounds just as wonderful as it did last year.
If someone wants to spend $17,000 for the Meridian, they are welcome to it. That is WAY out of my price range, even IF I was convinced that is was significantly better. Based on the article, I don't think I would feel an urgent need to change, even if the Meridian were $3000. The slight difference described would not pry $3000 out of my pocket.
The verdict is in:
Stereophile recommended components 2009:
Class A+ : Ayre C-5xe ( $5950 ); Krell Evolution 505($10000)
Class A : Ayre CX-7e ($3500);
Meridian 808i.2 ($16,995)
(For the record, my CD player is the Mark Levinson CD390S)
It is amazing gear, absurdly expensive. I will never own it, but your review was both clear and informative. Don't fault yourself.
Now that is both a great looking machine and looks like the build might merit something like its astronomic price...Another review I look forward to.
You know, a best of the best playoff might be interesting...compare half dozen signature machines in the same cost level...
After my 12 year experience with the Meridian 508-24 (a GREAT sounding unit that tracked real CD's only on whim), I will NEVER buy another Meridian again.
Period. Remember, I took this unit back to the dealer ONE FUCKING WEEK after the warranty expired, and the repairs cost me $600, even though there was NO paper documentation that I had ever done anything wrong with the unit.
Fine. I paid. But here is the rub. After about 6 weeks into the post-repair period, the same shit started coming down again. Now, I don't mind paying for repairs that work. I will do so willingly. I can afford it. BUT, when you take my money and THEN start lap-dancing me about vague denials and demurrals over who did what to whom, then I just want to opt out.
Repeat. I don't give a fuck how good the new Meridian sounds. I have already posted about the not-so-new Cary, about how good IT sounds, and, more importantly, how well it tracks software that my Meridian rejected.
I will never buy another Meridian. I can afford the best they have. Still, I am not reckless or silly stupid. You stick with what works. As far as I am concerned, Cary works, and Meridian doesn't. You all can construct your own narratives, but all I can do is turn the fucking thing on, put in a disc, and wait. The Cary rewards me with music. The Meridian punishes me with gibberish.
QED.
I will NEVER, EVER, buy another Meridian. Their dealers suck. Their players promise good sound, and deliver when in the mood (reminds me of several of my ex-girl friends, but that is another topic), but inexplicably conk out when it comes to day-to-day reliability. What is worse, their dealers waffle, and the user ends up paying for the waffles.
Repeat. I don't give a friar's fuck about how ANYBODY measures or listens to this turd. A turd is a turd, if it won't process. A turd is a more STINKING turd, if you pay money to send the goddam thing back and it comes back reeking the same smell.
Sorry, folks. Anybody want a 508-24 that tracks about 70% of what you feed it, AFTER $600 worth of repairs??? It is yours for $200. And, in my opinion, you just got a bad deal. Still, tweakers and modders claim to be able to work miracles with this crap. So. Do you feel lucky? 200 bucks, and it's yours. Better hurry. The dumpster that is parked below my window is looking more and more receptive, and I do NOT need the money.
Fuck Meridian.
This is my rant, based on verifiable personal experience. Heed it or no. But. If any of you should ever venture to BUY this grunt-cake, mark well my experience.
Happy tunes.
Clifton:
First let me say that I understand your rage. To pay $600 for a repair when the unit is one week out of warranty is certainly no way to treat a good customer. You bring up a valid point and that is at $16K is the unit durable for many many years and secondly if it does need repairs would one have to pay a very high price.
One thing that Stereophile might want to do is run a poll from readers on both the reputation and willingness to treat a customer like a customer from both manufacturers and dealers. I, for example, would be much more willing to give my business to purchase a component from a company that cares about its customers from a dealer who treats me like I am a valued customer. When I had to have the speaker grills replaced for my Paradigm speakers I made one call and within a week they were at my door via Fed'x. They also spent time with me on the phone just talking audio which will keep me a Paradigm customer for a long while. It would be nice to have a database of good audio companies vs. the snooty ones and the same for dealers.
In this age of consumer power if anyone from Meridian reads these boards than I suggest you reach out to this customer as a key influencer.
I may be wrong, but I do not think that the Meridian qualifies for A+, because it does not play either type of "hi-resolution" media; i.e. SACD or DVD-audio. Unless I am mistaken, Stereophile does not put CD-only players into that category.
Perhaps John Atkinson can clarify the policy on that? John?
In my very limited experience I have dealt with Transparent Audio, PS Audio and Benchmark and ALL were amazingly professional and helpful. I wish computer folk or car repair folk were half as good. I have a problem with a Rotel CD player, well out of warranty. When I can scrounge up a few hundred for the repair I will contact them and I am sure they will also provide great service...
Whew; what a narrow escape!
I almost had the $17,000 counted out, and you saved me.
I can't believe a company would take $600 for a repair and then not stand behind the repair; are you SURE you are telling us the whole story here (not just one side of a controversy)? Sorry to be sceptical, but your story sounds to me like something is missing.
While a CD-only player maxes out as Class A, the 808i.2 qualifies for A+ because its digital input allows it to decode and playback hi-rez audio from external sources.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
But not A++ or A+++?
I'm starting to feel like the Recommended Components should be interpreted like bond ratings.
The Meridian could apply to college with a 4.5 GPA.
There have been some really great posts here that help me understand how Stereophile rates products as well as Ayre defenders who feel that their CD player is no longer the creme de la creme of CD players.
I had a chance to compare the Ayre, Meridian and my Sony at my friends house earlier this week and I could def hear the differences in sound but you really had to listen to hear the differences. I am not sure that I would pay $16K for the Meridian even if I had the money to spend the Ayre I believe would be a goal to shoot for but even the $6k price tag makes it out of reach for a lot of us.
If we are all to judge how components sound than isn't better to let each one of us determine the rating? In fact maybe Stereophile might want to include a user rating for reviewed products and ask that users submit serial numbers to validate the review?
In the end it's not price that dictates what is the best of the best or manufacturer or Stereophile rating..it's ourselves with what sounds best for us balanced with what we can afford. Stereophile is a great resource for narrowing down resources however and I will continue to read every issue from cover to cover..
A user friendliness rating would be nice as well...One that does not require the user to have a degree in computer technology would also be nice...ie, haul in a friend, not a professional reviewer, hand him the manual and let him set the unit up and operate it...I suspect some of the gear reviewed would be beyond the ability of a lot of normal readers (like me). Manufacturers do not make setup house calls for normal folk.
Two comments, and a question for JA, from a long-time (25 years!) Stereophile subscriber.
1. In my personal experience, having owned 18 difference pieces of Meridian gear from 1994 until now, Meridian has exhibited exemplary customer service - nothing like what Clifton reports. In one case, they fixed my G98 transport drive, free of charge, two years after warranty expiration; in another case, they replaced the power supply in my 861 free of charge, despite the warranty being long, long expired, and despite not being able to replicate the problem I was having (and the replacement did fix it). They didn't even charge me for return shipping on these repairs.
2. Those gasping at the price of the 808.2 might consider giving the Berkeley Audio Design AlphaDAC a listen. Although the details aren't explicitly disclosed, they are apparently also using some kind of DSP-based minimum phase filter, with stunning results. The degree of improvement over my latest/greatest Meridian 861 was astonishing, on both Redbook and hi-res. The control flexibility and build quality are obviously not to the same standard as Meridian, as you might expect for $5K, but I'm thrilled with it.
There is an interesting debate on the forum of, uh, some other audio magazine
about the degree to which the 808.2 and similar products eliminate the audible differences between Redbook and higher-resolution formats. JA, have you tried comparing your hi-res and Redbook masters through the input of the 808.2i?
Your comparison of CD on 808.2 with DVD-A on Ayre is being cited as evidence that the differences between Redbook and hi-res are now essentially nil. If true, many of us can save some money not buying those hi-res downloads!
I did do some listening tests feeding the hi-rez datastream from my MacBook and the Meridian does sound superb on high-sample-rate data. You can't, of course, feed the data to the Ayre, because it doesn't have a digital input. Though I did burn some of the files on to DVD-A, I ran out of time before I could do any direct comparisons using hi-rez audio.
That's not what I found. Here's what I wrote in the review:
Thanks for the response. It is indeed interesting where you found the differences ...