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"If it weren't for God sending me to Hell, I'd just kill you and take your cheeseburger, brother."Not exactly a moral animal, to be sure. Ethics and behavior should stand free of supernatural threats.

Yes, but for the majority of our history, most of our species have required the threat of hell for them to behave and the promise of eternal bliss to get them to risk their own lives whilst slaughtering other tribes.

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Otherwise, we are just the family dog...or less!

Well, we just may be some advanced beings' or civilizations pet, food source or sadistic form of
entertainment. How's that for cosmic paranoia?

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All they need to do is start making more virgins!

Some branches of Islam interpret the Koran at Sura 56:v32-36 as meaning that the created Houris (virgins) martyrs are given can, at the command of those martys, have not only their gender altered but their species. So, if your thing is little boys or goats, you are rewarded appropriately for your martyrdom. Good thing there are no stones in paradise.

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I'm just sayin' that God is as good an explanation for where the Universe came from as any other answer.

It's not a good explanation at all. If god created the universe, then who or what created god? If you say "god has always been" then I can fairly counter "the universe has always been" even though science points to that not being the case.

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So, tell me more about how you might have raised little atheists.

I have no children, and at age 60 I'm not likely to have any soon. But I'd teach my kids about logic and evidence and common sense and consumerism. I'd no sooner tell them there's a god then I'd expect them to accept there's an Easter bunny or Santa Claus. I don't believe in the devil either.

--Ethan

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All they need to do is start making more virgins!

Some branches of Islam interpret the Koran at Sura 56:v32-36 as meaning that the created Houris (virgins) martyrs are given can, at the command of those martys, have not only their gender altered but their species. So, if your thing is little boys or goats, you are rewarded appropriately for your martyrdom. Good thing there are no stones in paradise.

That must have been the inspiration for Al Capp's schmoo.

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It's not a good explanation at all. If god created the universe, then who or what created god? If you say "god has always been" then I can fairly counter "the universe has always been" even though science points to that not being the case.

Ethan, the Universe as it exists now has not always been. Fair. But, can you say that the universe, in some form or another, has not always been?

Before the Big Bang there was no Universe?

Before the Big Bang, what was sitting in the spacial coordinates we now occupy?

What was your Universe like before the Big Bang?

Yes, I have no idea. But there's no need to add a mythical god into the equation.

Last night the History HD channel ran their fantastic Universe and Einstein shows again, and I watched them all for a second time. As I watch these shows I can only think, "If believers watched this and understood what's being presented, they would no longer believe in a god." Or at least not in the sort of god most religions portray.

For centuries now, religion has made preposterous claims. One by one they are shot down by science. Yet religion never seems to learn - they just modify their dogma to adapt to what science has proven thus far.

--Ethan

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You seem to put aside the point that scientific dogma is just as harmful as theistic dogma.

Sorry, amigo, but pointing out the harm of either one does not prove or refute anything. No offense on that. That arguments rings of, "Newt Gingrich is an adultering liar. He cannot be trusted. What say you to that?" "Oh, yeah? Bill Clinton!"

I do appreciate your rejection of dogma, however, and your ability to see that each can do harm.

Aryan superiority on the one hand, gays are an abomination on the other. Both can be misused.

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Scientific Method..based entirely on observation. The process depends on the assumptions scientists have made about the nature of observation and the ties between observed, physical reality, and "truth"(whatever the hell that is!!). These assumptions(many of which are absolutely false),have formed a shaky foundation..a foundation that is as easily questioned as any religious posit..

So, you have yet to hear of scientists making predictions and formulating an hypothesis first?

"Relies entirely on observation?"

Do you know how many years between Einstein's Theory of Relativity and observational confirmation?

How the Hell did he do that without making the observation first?

As for religion, what do you, unlike science, use other than observation?

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BUT!!...Scientists don't allow any of their notions to be questioned...they defend, gnash teeth and drag through the mud anyone that dares challenge these long held "truths"....

Yes, the example of Einstein being tarred and feathered and dragged through Princeton Square comes to mind.

Watson and Crick? Nearly dunked to death being checked for witchcraft before their structue of DNA paper could be published.

Sure there is teeth gnashing and arguing, it's a human endeavor.

Science changes, too. We learn more. When was the last time Pat Robertson's, or any religious icon's, God changed?

God gets off totally easy.

If someone gets cancer, it's God's will. If they don't get cancer, God has blessed them. If they get cancer and are cured by mean old science, that's God's will, too.

Name anything that has ever happened and it can be readily related to God's direct meddling.

God as the holy concierge, waiting at His desk hoping you will ring the bell and He will intervene. After that, He is going to grant you eternal life.

And you call science smug and arrogant?

Oy.

I'm trying to imagine your view of science being crazy!

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there is no distinction between religious dogma and scientific dogma.

Sure there is.

Take a look at today's scientific dogma compared to 2,000 years ago, and compare it to Christian dogma over the same time frame.

Which is more open minded?

(Does scientific dogma change? Yes, it does. can scienctific dogma be disporved? Yes, it can. can religious dogma be disproved? No, it cannot.)

Scientists also can't pick and choose dogma to ignore.

For a scientists, gravity is gravity; but for a person of faith, an abomination on one line can become a tatty seafood snack, while the abomination on the next line warrants social persecution.

Religion is far more fickle and capricious than 'science.'

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I feel more comfortable believing in the Almighty than I do blindly following the mental ejaculations of human beings, who, as we all know are, as a whole, fucking stupid, not to mention, patently evil.

Well, you may have invented your own personal Jesus (or whatever, it was a Depech Mode joke) but where do you think 99.9% of people who claim to have faith have gotten their ideas?

Yup, the mental ejaculations of another person. usually starting before the kid is too young and dependent to able to question their dogmatic ejaculate.

I'm relieved you are not like them.

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OH YEAH, almost forgot..I watched those shows and understood everything that was presented. Didnt affect my belief system one bit. Maybe I was watching it wrong?

I agree with you. Why would God be opposed to learning how He may have made things?

Maybe our purpose here in this life is to work those mental muscles and strive to be smarter, to gain insight, to master our environment, and to make sure we know what it means to be good shephereds, too.

I hope if there were a God, He'd look down and go, "Good on you, Albert! Now go for the unifying equation!"

Ethan's great great....great grandfather thought Pythagoras proved there was no God, too.

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For a scientists, gravity is gravity;

You mean you haven't heard of intelligent falling?

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For a scientists, gravity is gravity;

You mean you haven't heard of intelligent falling?

Would this be the opposite of what happened to Arthur Dent when he was thrown out of Thor's party in the clouds..when he was screaming all the way down..and then just before hitting the ground..he saw the travel bag he lost in the Paris airport 10 years earlier...and he was so surprised..he just plain missed the ground and learned how to fly?

Everything Buddha said, plus:

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Religion is a beautiful thing.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I see no beauty in blindly accepting things presented as truth, but with no reasonable evidence or even a theory as to why it might be. It's like Jan proclaiming that 30 gauge magnet wire "sounds better" that 14 gauge Zip cord. I'm sure Jan believes that! But all actual evidence points to heavier wire being better.

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You seem to put aside the point that scientific dogma is just as harmful as theistic dogma.

There's no dogma in good science. Science learns and adapts. It is self-correcting, and always has been. When new, better evidence comes along the old is discarded and the new gladly embraced. Eventually, complex things become simpler and are understood. Like DNA, which was unthinkable 200 years ago. Versus religion that, as I explained above, changes only when it is forced to by irrefutable proof that even the most die-hard believers can't ignore. Yet, amazingly, some people still do not accept evolution! At least the brighter believers accept evolution, but consider it part of God's plan. Okay, that's cool, though I disagree. But to dismiss evolution outright is IMO insane. It can be proven in a few months by observing fruit flies, or bacteria that develops immunity to antibiotics!

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it is very, very common for those of us with faith to ask questions(both aloud and inward) such as "is there really a God?" "why should I blindly follow what I cannot see?" "If there is a God and he is so great, how in the hell can there be so much pain in the world?" "what is the nature of God"

You bring up a great point. I see this as similar to conservative talk guys like Sean Hannity. It's obvious Sean Hannity has the facts needed to arrive at a wise conclusion. Yet time and again he misuses the correct facts to force them to align with his crackpot views. Likewise, it's great that religious people have those questions. What I don't understand is how you guys can conclude there is indeed a god. A perfect example is "How could a benevolent god allow so much suffering in the world?" I've never seen a satisfactory answer from a believer, but I'll be glad to hear your take.

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Scientists don't allow any of their notions to be questioned.

Hogwash. A good scientist is glad to have their prior theories overturned if it advances knowledge. There may be some who are not "good" but that doesn't negate science as a proper method toward learning The Truth. And isn't knowing the truth what we all really want?

--Ethan

"What I don't understand is how you guys can conclude there is indeed a god. A perfect example is "How could a benevolent god allow so much suffering in the world?" I've never seen a satisfactory answer from a believer, but I'll be glad to hear your take."

Read the books I mentioned. You will have your answer. Dan Burisch shows (speaks on) the aspects of the hidden and emergent science - that is apparently now to be for public consumption.

That is, if you can negotiate whet they say without it bouncing off your protective shell. Even that will be explained. ie, your failure to investigate deep enough-so it can be dismissed as garbage, to hold one's emotional investment in science and beliefs tied to same.

The more critical point is that Mohamed had to go to the mountain, not the other way around.

In America, they express it in terms of horses and water.

Another seemingly confusing take on it is:

"If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the (Father's) kingdom."

When you arrive at the answer, they all end up showing themselves to mean the same thing. They all point at the same thing. Same as my signature.

The cosmic joke is inside you, Ethan.

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Versus religion that, as I explained above, changes only when it is forced to by irrefutable proof that even the most die-hard believers can't ignore.

Science also changes only when it is forced to by irrefutable proof that even the most die-hard believers can't ignore.

One toughie:

Ethan has offered cartoonish and simple criteria, but is open to a proof that God exists. He wants a magic man to do tricks science can't explain!

For those with faith: Is there anything that could be shown to change your own belief?

If there were no God, how COULD that be proven to you?

OK. I'll bite:

Science proposes, from Newtonian through quantum physics that symmetry exists in all molecular function..this they say HARDCORE ...and WITHOUT EXCEPTION..of..ANY KIND.

Only one little problem, there.

For matter and time to exist..asymmetry in quantum and molecular function MUST, I repeat MUST exist. Otherwise..nothing at all would exist. Gravity, magnetism, energy, entropy, all of it would --- fail. Capacity for differential and the second law would simply not be there. (even though the second law has been shown to be utter bullshit-it is gross and Newtonian, not quantum-and fails under scrutiny)

So there you go - science is pretty screwed up, yes.

To be fair, there are theoretical works and experiments always in a happening state and most 'laws' in science and engineering today are in the point and effect of being altered and or overturned. However, engineers cling to what they know.

That's why their psychological type chose engineering as a life's endeavor, in the first place-cuz it has so many inviolates for them to cling to.

When you propose something new, that is the usual loggerheads that you get into - battles with engineering types, or that particular mental makeup, which can be found anywhere..but is particularly predominant in technical schools and engineering circles.

Good souls run away from a public beating by a mob. Those who enjoy such things..gather 'round. In the same way, engineering pulls in like minds..and the problem becomes worse.

Kinda like politics and banking attracting their own kind of scum...until you finally have what you have out there-today. Which is a serious problem which is seriously out of hand and is ready to cash in everyone's chips for itself.

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[Ethan] knows what the Universe was like before the Big Bang.

I never said that. But I can tell you this: If / when the answer is known some day, it will be found by scientists, not theologians. At least scientists are looking for the real answer. Versus theologians who are sure they already know.

--Ethan

Posting anything here is akin to repeatedly smashing the same thumb with a hammer but...Ethan, I have a question. I couldn't care less about whether you believe in God or not but I find it fascinating that someone who vends a product will make statements that are bound to offend about 50% of the people who read them. What are the odds that those same folks will graciously look beyond those insults and buy your product? Isn't that a perfect example of shooting yourself in the foot....repeatedly?

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Posting anything here is akin to repeatedly smashing the same thumb with a hammer

No kidding and I'm fully aware of that. I continue because it's fun. Really.

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someone who vends a product will make statements that are bound to offend about 50% of the people who read them.

Probably more like 90 percent are offended.

As you may notice, I always disable my company sig when posting to threads like this. Not just god threads, but audio wires and "hearing capacitors" and too-small acoustic products etc. (Yes, I realize most people know who my company is anyway.) I post to threads like this as Ethan, not as a rep of my company!

I feel very strongly about this stuff. Plus, most people like ncdrawl are reasonable. I have huge respect for him whether he believes in god or not, and I suspect he doesn't write me off for acoustic and other audio opinions just because of my stance on religion.

Hey, while we have you here, whatever happened with the ART resonators you said you were going to check out at the show in January? I've been waiting patiently for your report!

--Ethan

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Is there anything that could be shown to change your own belief? If there were no God, how COULD that be proven to you?

You nailed it. I could easily be convinced by a simple parlor trick from a cartoon god as you put it. But I'm pretty sure believers will not change their opinion no matter how compelling the evidence. Indeed, there's already mountains of compelling evidence! Yet they continue to believe anyway.

--Ethan

Lower back problems caused us to cancel our plans--too long a flight unfortunately. The only wooden bowls you will find in my listening room will be filled with popcorn.

To the original point, if I had a product to sell, I would never enter into a posting war regarding religion or politics, even if I posted anonymously. Everyone here on this board knows who you are and what you sell and they all, no doubt, have seen you strapped to a chair, hoping and praying (..well maybe not praying) for that lapdance. Call me naive but I'd bet there are some here who would never buy your product for any number of reasons, not the least of which is your negative attitude toward religion. OK I'm finished ranting...I'll get with you soon regarding those acoustic treatments for my 2CH room....yeah right.

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Lower back problems caused us to cancel our plans--too long a flight unfortunately.

That is the problem with flights that are planned to actually land safely. Allah be willing.

Welcome to steerage class and lower back problems.

As for Ethan's business and posting what he wants. Stereophile had no problem posting anti-Bush crap for 8 years knowing full well that the majority of their subscribers are conservative (nice "business model"). Why should Ethan be any different. He is a Stereophile lamb. Hook, line, and sinker. Butt-buddies till the end.

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Lower back problems caused us to cancel our plans--too long a flight unfortunately.

That is the problem with flights that are planned to actually land safely. Allah be willing.

Welcome to steerage class and lower back problems.

As for Ethan's business and posting what he wants. Stereophile had no problem posting anti-Bush crap for 8 years knowing full well that the majority of their subscribers are conservative (nice "business model"). Why should Ethan be any different. He is a Stereophile lamb. Hook, line, and sinker. Butt-buddies till the end.

Lamont,

Stereophile lamb politically perhaps but I wouldn't call him a subjectivist...a lot of other things, but not a subjectivist. As an aside, don't you just love getting that barrage of mailings from S'phile telling you to hurry and take advantage of "special" subscription renewal pricing...."but wait! Call in the next 10 minutes and we'll include a one year subscription to the NY Times."
What a buttload of crap.

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Stereophile had no problem posting anti-Bush crap for 8 years knowing full well that the majority of their subscribers are conservative (nice "business model").

Hey, it keeps you around!

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Lower back problems caused us to cancel our plans--too long a flight unfortunately.

That is the problem with flights that are planned to actually land safely. Allah be willing.

Welcome to steerage class and lower back problems.

As for Ethan's business and posting what he wants. Stereophile had no problem posting anti-Bush crap for 8 years knowing full well that the majority of their subscribers are conservative (nice "business model"). Why should Ethan be any different. He is a Stereophile lamb. Hook, line, and sinker. Butt-buddies till the end.

Lamont,

Stereophile lamb politically perhaps but I wouldn't call him a subjectivist...a lot of other things, but not a subjectivist. As an aside, don't you just love getting that barrage of mailings from S'phile telling you to hurry and take advantage of "special" subscription renewal pricing...."but wait! Call in the next 10 minutes and we'll include a one year subscription to the NY Times."
What a buttload of crap.

By no means a subjective fan of the magazine or related hobby. As for the the sales pitch. The only thing they are leaving out is, "because we can't do this all day". "Shamwow!". No pun intended. "Made in Germany. You know the Germans always make good stuff!".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23zGquwJfbw

Sorry to hear about your back. Back problems are a bitch!

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To the original point, if I had a product to sell, I would never enter into a posting war regarding religion or politics, even if I posted anonymously.

I agree. Thanks for the slap upside my head.

--Ethan

Hello, sorry I am late to the party, have been away for a while and as Muslim I would like to clarify some points. I again apologize for resurrecting such an older thread.

The conversation seems to have diverged into many different topics but I am going to focus on the initial topic of Muslims and HiFi.

I am Muslim and enjoy Hifi, I feel there are no contradiction within me or that I am committing a Sin. There is no explicit mention of music being prohibited in Islam, no matter the fidelity .

Muslims believe in the Prophet David, and accept the Gospel and the word of God. So one can find Music as a part of the religion in some spheres.

What you have to understand about Islam or any religion is that they are hundreds of years old, and prevalent in all societies of varying education, and wealth. So if you pick a topic, say martyrs and virgins, you will be able to find statements and Fatwa's from scholars varying in opinion from you get nothing other than the honor of dieing for your lord, to you can transform into animals and have thousands of virgins. Islam is religion consisting of 1.7 billion people, thats about 20% of the population of the world.
So differences in opinion are expected, so we have to remember if we read something about Islam it may be insignificant in every since of the word.

For example in a small village in Afghanistan with a population of 250 people believe due to the insistence of their Imam (religious leader) that it is unlawful (Haram) to listen to any music not composed by Hall and Oates. This info could easily get passed along to a journalist or soldier and the information snowball starts to roll, and before you know it Rolling Stone is is doing an article on Hall and Oates the new prophets of Islam. But statistically these individual only represent 0.00000000000147, of the Muslim population. An insignificant number.

So beware of a lot of what you read, and keep an open mind. There are Muslim Audiophiles out there, and I am more than happy to play The Holy Quran on the same speakers with Mozart, Rachmaninoff, Coltrane, Steely Dan, and Norah Jones.

Feel free to ask questions.