The dude who has that ridiculous system should have invested some of that $6M into a better looking wife.

Some 'Muslim folks' do but let's not forget that under many forms of strict Muslim government, such as the Taliban, radios, TV, movies and all that western effluvia are banned. Besides, if that audiophool lived in such a society he would be in BIG trouble for exposing so much of his 'gorgeous' wife to public view. As to the system, it makes no sense. Think about the microphonics induced in those MacIntosh amps by those massive 18" drivers only feet away not to mention the mid & treble reflections off that coffee table. As to the number of channels on show, how many recordings have that many? Not only that but positioning those speakers so close to each other in that space probably induces lobing and Lord knows what other effects. He may have some involvement in the recording industry but since when has that been a guarantee of sanity? However, I'm sure he impresses himself on a daily basis.

Muslim folks love hi-fi too? I doubt it. If you look closely at those shots the power amps have no cables and the terminals are un-connected to anything.
I smell something fishy. How did you come across that site NC?

All that equipment and the gentleman only has one tiny remote control.
He, obviously, knows how to do things right!

You just don't get it, do you?

If hi-fi is your religion, then all else must be secondary in importance, so christian, muslim, buddhist...machs nicht!

I don't see any Koran or bible anywhere; you can tell what's REALLY important there...lol.

Jeremy Kipnis, film and record producer.

Father, Igor, was a Russian emigre.

Jeremy grew up in Connecticut, and his dad was director of a local music festival.

It doesn't matter, but he doesn't sound all that Muslim.

Does strict Islam allow music?

Is music halal?

I'm gonna' light a candle on my alter to my ARC D-79.

I'm just dying to add a comment here about irrational religious beliefs but I'll refrain.

Yikes!

I think of atheists as being part of the universe, not the center of it!

Other than the 'arrogant' part, I do appreciate how you identify it as 'lack of belief,' because that's all it is.

I don't think of it as "active disbelief," if that makes sense. It's just a lack of faith.

We can dice words about which is more 'arrogant,' assuming one is specially made for an immortal life in return for proper belief, or thinking that we miraculously exist without the active participation of a God.

I figure, as long as neither side gets 'evangelical' and insists everyone believe like they do, we're all good.

Cheers.

NC

Are you looking for a religious argument ?

Alan

Atheism is arrogant, ncdrawl. As is any kind of theism. We all grope, hope, stop groping somewhere, stop hoping, and then go through the same cycle again.

There are no proofs on either side of the aisle. Some of us feel greater presences and are spiritually moved, by art, religion (denominational and otherwise), and even science (imagine that!). Many scientists are devoutly spiritual, denominational or not, and many professed doctrinal theists are merely looking for a reliable way out of their own existential insecurity.

There is no essential difference between a Muslim and a Christian (we won't get into the thorny question of which represents truth...). Both are deluded and/or enlightened, from the miserable human perspective.

I couldn't live without music. So, apparently, I could never be a Muslim. Remember too, though, that Aquinas panned church music that was sensuous enough to divert the masses' attention away from the dogma. And he was, most decidedly, Christian.

All the music that I love most is on the Index. So. I could never be a Muslim or a Catholic. No great loss.

My religion is art. I can only understand the spiritual when it is limned within the concrete confines of my physical, sensuous universe. Yet, great art (my definition) always takes me beyond my physical and mathematical reasoning. Always.

So, I am certainly no atheist. I believe that art and intellect are connected, eternal, and spiritual. But you wouldn't catch me anywhere near a church that doctrinally outlawed Berlioz, Bach, Count Basie, Mozart, and Schoenberg (just to sample a few).

I have to agree with Buddha, on this one (at least, as I understand him) -- everything is relative, when you belong to an essentially dim-witted species that can't even define the money it worships. For "...mine own self...," in the immortal words of the bard, "...there is providence in the fall of a sparrow." I don't need to be able to prove it. Nor do I have to wear a funny outfit to preach it. Nor do I have to preach it. Nor shall I.

I can't help but hypothesize that we would be much better off, as a species, with more music, and fewer pseudo-proofs, funny outfits, and pretentions to absolute knowledge of the unknowable. And less arrogance.

Meanwhile, happy tunes. I hope your choices elevate you beyond your physical certitudes, "true" OR "false." As if anyone out there could possibly know the difference. They do me.

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I couldn't live without music. So, apparently, I could never be a Muslim.

Ermm.. Not to enter into any arguments about religion, but I am not sure where this comes from as it is a total fallacy. There are loads of Muslim religious music around, since centuries, ditto for all other arts. As far as I know, only doing pictures of people or animals was banned as it was thought that soul could/should not be captured on canvass. Hence the predominance of graphic arts in Muslim countries.
If one or two totalitarian states have decided to ban music (using religion as an excuse) in order to control the information flow to their citizens, and therefore their thoughts, does not mean that the religion bans it.

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unfortunately, radicals in all of the major religions are seen as "typical" practitioners

Good point.

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Ive always seen atheism as inherently arrogant

I see no arrogance in my position. The idea that there's a god makes no sense logically or scientifically. And nobody I'm aware of has ever shown even one bit of evidence. So I require at least minimal proof before accepting it as true or at least possible. Indeed, the god explanation asks more questions than it answers. If things need a creator, then who or what created god?

Anyway, we know where this will go, so I'm not upset if my post is left unanswered.

--Ethan

Hey, I'm an atheist who finds Ethan arrogant.

He knows what the Universe was like before the Big Bang.

Ethan is an evangelical atheist - he is really just mad at God for not paying enough direct attention to him, so he gets even by denying God's existence.

In the box of atheists, Ethan is the bad egg.

Even electronically: Things measure differently, but he says you can't hear that. If they don't measure differently, he says you can't hear that, either.

Hey, Mr. Spock...Ethan...

Why is a sunset beautiful?

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Why is a sunset beautiful?

Well, it has nothing to do with any god, that's for sure!

Why do we find anything attractive or not attractive? It's conditioning. That's why different cultures have different standards for what makes members of the opposite sex attractive. If the sky was green instead of blue we'd find a green sunset beautiful, no?

--Ethan

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[Ethan] knows what the Universe was like before the Big Bang.

I never said that. But I can tell you this: If / when the answer is known some day, it will be found by scientists, not theologians. At least scientists are looking for the real answer. Versus theologians who are sure they already know.

--Ethan

Hi Gents,

I have an anecdotal story and a comment addressed to all. Not trying to convince anyone but very interesting and thought you all might be interested. I have no proof since I had no camera for the trip I made to college.

Decades ago I was traveling to college and stopped overnight for a room. The next morning I went to start my old ford falcon, 6 cyclinder. Nothing, not even the solonoid clicking. So I had a person connect some jumper cables. I tried three times to crank the engine but to no avail, not even a click. Of course I switched the key to "off' each time and waited some few minutes before each attempt.

Anyway I was at my wits end as I was short on cash to pay my tuition. So I prayed about the situation to God and after I said amen, I heard a noise, the engine was cranking over and the dash lights were not lit. So I turned the key to the "on" position and the engine started.

There was no grinding so evidently the starter was not engaged. Anyway, I continued on my trip and never shut the engine off till I registered and parked the car. Sold it later for $70.00.

I also find it interesting that the bible indirectly indicates more dimensions parallel to ours. Those dimensions may not deal with time- and who knows what else. Jesus was able to appear to the disciples, in a room after the doors were shut.

Daniel was inspired to decipher a dream in which the persian empire would be over thrown by a later empire (greco macendonian) that would evidently be divided into four kingdoms. His dream was long long before the events according to scholars.

Just thought those things were interesting.

Take care.

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Hi Gents,

I have an anecdotal story and a comment addressed to all. Not trying to convince anyone but very interesting and thought you all might be interested. I have no proof since I had no camera for the trip I made to college.

Decades ago I was traveling to college and stopped overnight for a room. The next morning I went to start my old ford falcon, 6 cyclinder. Nothing, not even the solonoid clicking. So I had a person connect some jumper cables. I tried three times to crank the engine but to no avail, not even a click. Of course I switched the key to "off' each time and waited some few minutes before each attempt.

Anyway I was at my wits end as I was short on cash to pay my tuition. So I prayed about the situation to God and after I said amen, I heard a noise, the engine was cranking over and the dash lights were not lit. So I turned the key to the "on" position and the engine started.

There was no grinding so evidently the starter was not engaged. Anyway, I continued on my trip and never shut the engine off till I registered and parked the car. Sold it later for $70.00.

I also find it interesting that the bible indirectly indicates different dimensions, one without time and parallel to ours. Jesus was able to appear in a room after the doors were shut to the apostles.

Just thought those things were interesting.

Take care.

I'm glad God's concierge desk was open that night!

Sometimes we get carrots, sometimes we get sticks, eh?

(Meant friendly style.)

Thanks Buddha. Actually it was in the morning. I probably was not clear enough on that point.

Take care.
Steve

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If / when the answer is known some day, it will be found by scientists, not theologians. At least scientists are looking for the real answer. Versus theologians who are sure they already know.--Ethan

I agree, but keep in mind we may not like the answer we get.

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There will be no answers, just more vain, clumsy guesses.. The creation of the universe was divine in nature. Beyond any and all human comprehension, you see. If we do find out about the origins of the universe, it will not be from the mouths of nerds in lab coats...

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If / when the answer is known some day, it will be found by scientists, not theologians. At least scientists are looking for the real answer. Versus theologians who are sure they already know.--Ethan

I agree, but keep in mind we may not like the answer we get.

OK, cant let this go on.

Nerds in lab coats have developed mankind, where do you think electricity, houses, clothes, cars came from ? Did god wake up one morning and email Thomas Edison a prototype lightbulb ?

Im agnostic and quite happy to let people believe what they want but i have to object when rubbish like this is talked. There is nothing divine about mankind, its a proven scientific development over millions of years.

If you want to believe in god and fairy tales then fine, please do not preach your religious rubbish until you can present hard physical evidence to back up the god fantasy.

The basic fact is that religion is a scam designed by the church to control the masses and give hope to weak minded people who need something to blame for their own lives being so crappy, this is why religion is so popular amongst lower income people and in third world countries, they dont want to take responsibility for their own actions and situation in life.

If god does exist, does he exist in the form you believe or the form that hundreds of other religions believe ? or is there really hundreds of gods ?

Alan

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There will be no answers, just more vain, clumsy guesses.. The creation of the universe was divine in nature. Beyond any and all human comprehension, you see. If we do find out about the origins of the universe, it will not be from the mouths of nerds in lab coats...

There are several problems with your assertion NC. The foremost is the claim that the nature of (identity?) the creator will always be 'beyond any and all human comprehension'. I'll put aside for now the notion of Christ's humanity and how far he understood his 'father'. We need to ask ourselves how we can be certain of the existence of an entity whose nature is indeed beyond all human comprehension. Asserting that a firm belief, engendered by 'divine experience', justifies such certainty doesn't wash. It can only be used as a description of a subjective experience you've had, nothing else, no matter how 'divine' that experience may have felt.
Secondly we need to ask ourselves can be ever be sure that our species will fail to evolve to a form (either collectively or as individuals, with or without the blessing of the creator) able to one day know that which is now 'beyond any and all human comprehension'?
Thirdly, you may believe the universe is a divine creation. That belief however does not constitute proof of an all loving God. A cursory examination of human history, especially as expounded in the old testament, would tend to indicate the Almighty is a sado-masochist with a very sick sense of humor. I could quote chapter and verse but I'll leave you with a little exercise in Bible Study starting with Deuteronomy Ch32:V35-V43.
Related to all this, and also open to question, is the idea of prophesy. That is, how can a mere human, as you assert, for whom 'God' is 'beyond comprehension', have the gall to claim to speak for and on behalf of the Almighty? This I suggest is a potential blasphemy at the heart of all so called 'Holy Books' whose debt may be collected on the day of judgment, if there ever is such a thing.
But then again NC I suppose you can always seek refuge in Colossians Ch:2V:8
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Our dear moderator may like to move all this theological drivel to the 'Open Bar' section. We've all forgotten about those divinely unconnected MacIntosh power amps dancing in a circle anyway.

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the idea of God is outside of any human understanding.

But you claim to understand it, or at least understand it better than me, no?

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We don't have any hard "evidence" as you define it, but we walk by faith.

Why would you choose to ignore lack of evidence? I've seen enough of your posts to know you demand evidence in other areas such as audio.

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The universe is too "perfect" to just have come together in a burst of atoms

Well, that's the most plausible explanation we have so far. Or maybe you don't accept red shift? Again, at least the science-minded people are out there with telescopes trying to learn the truth.

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I don't think that anyone can speak for the almighty

Yet here you are saying god dislikes people like me, and I'll have a "doh" moment when I reach the pearly gates at judgment time, etc. The whole idea that non-believers will be punished for not believing is like a story told to little kids to make them behave. If there really were a god, and an afterlife which is just as incredible, I'd expect him to be much more humorous about revealing himself to nonbelievers when they die. Maybe he'd throw a surprise party and all the angels would jump out and yell "Fooled you!" Then there'd be a big party with lots of great food and single malt Scotch. Doesn't that sound more like something a really cool god would do?

Why must it always be about punishment and retribution?

--Ethan

Hi, Ethan. No offense, buddy, but you seem to be taking God as though He were a character in an Archie comic book...

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the idea of God is outside of any human understanding.

But you claim to understand it, or at least understand it better than me, no?

How about, "God's true nature is beyond the scope of human understanding."

To steal the old analogy: Trying to describe God, even, now, is like trying to describe radio waves to parrots. They can't comprehend the notion, but it doesn't mean radio waves don't exist.

God's nature is ineffible, but some people say they have a feel for His existence. Very intuitive, and maybe based on information that they process below (above?) the Ethan level of experience. I'm sure you have had experiences where you 'had a feeling' something was up, but coudln't explain why. Faith can be like that for others.

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We don't have any hard "evidence" as you define it, but we walk by faith.

Why would you choose to ignore lack of evidence? I've seen enough of your posts to know you demand evidence in other areas such as audio.

What evidence would you require?

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The universe is too "perfect" to just have come together in a burst of atoms

Well, that's the most plausible explanation we have so far. Or maybe you don't accept red shift? Again, at least the science-minded people are out there with telescopes trying to learn the truth.

To me, this is the least plausible explanation. Would you expect any Universe to have varying rules? ANY Universe in which we exist will be ragarded as 'perfect,' since it includes someone's existence. This is a self-congratulatory explanation, to me.

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I don't think that anyone can speak for the almighty

Yet here you are saying god dislikes people like me, and I'll have a "doh" moment when I reach the pearly gates at judgment time, etc. The whole idea that non-believers will be punished for not believing is like a story told to little kids to make them behave. If there really were a god, and an afterlife which is just as incredible, I'd expect him to be much more humorous about revealing himself to nonbelievers when they die. Maybe he'd throw a surprise party and all the angels would jump out and yell "Fooled you!" Then there'd be a big party with lots of great food and single malt Scotch. Doesn't that sound more like something a really cool god would do?

Why must it always be about punishment and retribution?

--Ethan

Ethan, be a man and be polite enough to capitalize a proper noun. You don't go by fuckin' ethan, and you don't call your company 'real traps,' so stop the juvenille expression. God, at worst, should qualify as a proper noun, eh?

Anyway, nobody can speak for the almighty, and ncdrawl knows when to call bullshit, but he also states an inherent faith. He accepts the notion of God as being more than some guy who runs things in a way that concrete Ethan can comprehend. Do you have kids? Did you ever let them figure out something on their own without being spoon fed? Why does your notion of God insist He be your freakin cosmic nanny?

For all I know, when the Bible said God created humans in His image, it doesn't mean arms, legs, and belly buttons; it may mean to be able to think abstractly and to have unfettered free will - to use as we see fit. If God spent all His time holding your hand and pointing to things and saying, "That's a cow, cows say, Moo" then God would really be wasting His time and ours!

Some people take the puzzle of the Universe and see the hand of God. Cool by me. Why does it upset you?

Anyway...we gotta have some beers together, I invented a 'religion' that I think you would approve of, but it would take a whole extra page of typing to get into now. (Plus, maybe someday, I can market it!)

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you seem to be taking God as though He were a character in an Archie comic book.

If the shoe fits...

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Trying to describe God, even, now, is like trying to describe radio waves to parrots. They can't comprehend the notion, but it doesn't mean radio waves don't exist.

But we are not parrots. We have radio telescopes and we know how to use them.

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What evidence would you require?

Almost any concrete evidence will do. Whatcha got?

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Ethan, be a man and be polite enough to capitalize a proper noun.

If god were a person and that was his name I'd gladly capitalize it. This is an editing / grammar decision, not lack of respect.

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when the Bible said God created humans in His image

The bible was written by people, likely men, thousands of years ago when understanding of science and the world around us was lacking even the basics. I never consider stuff written in the bible to be more than fiction.

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Some people take the puzzle of the Universe and see the hand of God. Cool by me. Why does it upset you?

Excellent question. Belief in god doesn't upset me, but it "sends a bad message" so to speak. When we teach children there's a god, we are teaching them to not think logically. I'm all for giving to charity, and other such kind acts religion sometimes does. But teaching people to accept things on faith alone is counterproductive IMO.

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we gotta have some beers together

I'm down!

--Ethan

Yes, and we've always had radio telescopes and knew how to use them. Of course!

Ethan, have you even figured out women yet?

Multiply that by a factor the size of the deficit and you might be 1% of the way to comprehending God.

Every age has had men who claim to stand on the permanent peak of all knowledge and understanding. If your technology can't find God, then he must not exist...right.

You seem to like the red shift, how ancient is that truth?

____

Do you captialize Tom Sawyer?

If so, you are just being an impolite hypocrite. Even if God doesn't exist, you know the context. You are just showing God that you are mad at Him, faux atheist.

___

Now, onward...

Concrete evidence, eh?

Where did the Big Bang come from?

Please try to improve on God as an answer.

____

Teaching kids a bad example?

God is merely Santa Claus writ large.

It's not a bad example, it's something to fill that spot in their concept of infinity until they get old enough to figure it out for themselves.

God is a way for us to explain the concept of something that is larger than ourselves, and to apply some balm to existential angst.

I can see you with a four year old, "Get over yourself kid, when you die you cease to exist, get it? When I die, you will never see me again. Better get used to the idea. Our dog fluffy? Yeah, he'll die sooner than than you think, and he'll cease to exist, too. God is bullshit. There's no philospohical rhyme or reason to our existence. We are just animated dirt. Existentialism, son, that's all their is. Now, where did we leave off in Sartre last night?"

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I have always wondered just what it is folks stand to lose by believing in a higher power. Face? Ego? When we contrast what we have to lose against what we have to gain..

Christianity isn't always about retribution, Mr. Winer. A Christian should be known by his love.

The only problem is so many of these so called "Christians" spend way too much time with Leviticus and not enough time with Jesus.

You are dead right about the modern Pharises.

I wonder if Ethan capitalizes "Jesus?"

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I have always wondered just what it is folks stand to lose by believing in a higher power. Face? Ego?

None of the above. But why should I accept something that makes no sense to me? You wouldn't, so why should I? Buddha mentioned Santa Claus (note the caps ) and that's a perfect analogy. I see no more evidence for god than for Santa Claus.

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When we contrast what we have to lose against what we have to gain

This is something else I don't understand. What is gained by believing in god, and what is lost not believing? I'm not talking about personal satisfaction, because that's internal and we can be happy or unhappy whether we believe in a god or not. But what exactly does Ethan lose by not believing? And what exactly does ncdrawl gain by believing?

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Christianity isn't always about retribution

I'm sure, but you were the one who brought up "doh moment" and "what we have to lose" etc.

However, there does seem to be a lot of punishment mentality among believers. There sure are a lot of things one can do that will get them permanent detention in hell! IMO the ten commandments and entire US federal and states law codes could be replaced with the golden rule.

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A Christian should be known by his love.

I'm all for that! The difference between atheists and believers is atheists know they can love and be loved, and be good people (or not) independent of whether god exists or not.

Good discussion guys, and I'm glad nobody is getting angry!

--Ethan

Another pet peeve of mine about religion is when people say without it, they may as well be Vikings or Pirates (not the sports teams) with no concern about others.

If it takes threats of eterenal punishment or reward to get someone to behave, then he ain't no Christian, he's a sociopath trying to avoid punishment. The only thing between him and Lord of the Flies is a childlike promise of Heaven or the threat of Hell? That would be a chilling personal admission.

"If it weren't for God sending me to Hell, I'd just kill you and take your cheeseburger, brother."

Not exactly a moral animal, to be sure.

Ethics and behavior should stand free of supernatural threats.

Otherwise, we are just the family dog...or less!

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If it takes threats of eterenal punishment or reward to get someone to behave, then he ain't no Christian, he's a sociopath trying to avoid punishment.

Now we're on the same page! From my article The Problem with (Criticizing) Prayer: "Be an honest person for its own value - not from fear of spending an eternity in hell."

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Where did the Big Bang come from?
Please try to improve on God as an answer.

It's a logical fallacy to say that because I can't disprove your crackpot theory somehow gives credibility to said theory. The following two items are excerpted from my favorite article about logical fallacies, written by Steven Novella of the New England Skeptic Society.

--Ethan

===================

Ad ignorantum
The argument from ignorance basically states that a specific belief is true because we don't know that it isn't true. Defenders of extrasensory perception, for example, will often overemphasize how much we do not know about the human brain. It is therefore possible, they argue, that the brain may be capable of transmitting signals at a distance.

UFO proponents are probably the most frequent violators of this fallacy. Almost all UFO eyewitness evidence is ultimately an argument from ignorance

Nope, I'm just sayin' that God is as good an explanation for where the Universe came from as any other answer.

For myself, I think the Universe just 'is.' Which, for some, seems crazier to them than their version of the Flying Spaghetti Monster seems to me.

Ethan, what science could ever lead you to 'know' the origin of the Universe?

There is also a fallacy of assuming that since science has made progress, it will continue to do so ad infinitum. Like some investors used to see the Dow.

Some things we will just never know. I'm comfortable not knowing, others may want to put God in that slot. It's all good.

If you want something kind of cool, check out the version of creation from Genesis that does it day by day, and you will find a reasonable chronology from the Big Bang up the evolutionary ladder. You have to read it charitably, not Ethan style where one inconsistency somehow disproves the whole schmear.

Obviously, there is some Bronze Age stuff and flippy floppy descriptions, but pretty good with starting from "Let there be light."

They could have done things in a different order, but they started with a pretty good depiction of the Big bang. Then, if you look at how they proceed with which forms of life came before which, not bad.

So, tell me more about how you might have raised little atheists.

Some very good points there Bhudda & Ethan. I'd like however to play devil's advocate (no capitalization!). There are a vast number of possibilities other than the standard Christian or Muslim monotheist superstitions. ( and that also suggests an interesting question - how do we distinguish between superstition and religious belief?) Consider just one possibility amongst an infinity. There was and is a creator who attempted to create us 'in it's own image'. This being, or whatever you wish to call it, was bored silly with it's own omniscience and decided to step back and grant free will to a number of life forms ( why should our species be the only one?) hoping they would take after it's own image and supreme rationality. So, here we are, granted the wondrous gift of an astonishing potential for logical thought only to go against the creator's wishes by following superstition rather than using our God given brains . So, if this scenario has any truth to it, it's the religious who are in for a nasty shock on the day of judgment.
I want to put another question to committed Christians that appears to me to be so obvious it's staring us all in the face. Why keep the Old Testament at all?
And no, I don't take passages such as Daniel Ch7:V27 as justification.
____________________________________________________________________
I'm beginning to suspect all this theological hoo -ha has been induced by the occult act of placing a large number of MacIntosh power amps, unconnected in a circle.

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I cannot grasp for one instant how a person can look at everything around them, the vastness of the universe, human life, all the wonders of nature..and chalk it up to some scientific anomaly. It seems impossible to even imagine that there is no creator!

Yes, we find ourselves in a wondrous universe but to assert that proves the existence of a Heavenly Father who adheres to the tenets of Judeo Christian mythology is a big jump.
I can understand why you may find it impossible to even imagine there is no creator but an equal difficulty suggests itself. I find it impossible to imagine, if there is a creator, that nothing created it.
This leads to an infinite regress that we can solve simply(?) by trying to wrap our heads around the astonishing, and admittedly counter intuitive notion for our species, that the universe has always been here and therefore was not created. Big Bang after Big Bang, universe after infinite number of universes.
Try and wrap your head around that idea before breakfast people.
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Isn't it time our venerable mod moved this to the 'Open Bar' section?

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The functioning and purpose of these innumerable laws has only been scratched on the surface by scientific research.

Yes, but the scratched surface is beginning to suggest there are an infinite number of other universes whose laws are nothing like ours. We just happen to find ourselves in a universe that happens to support intelligent life. Therefore, the intelligent(?) beings that we are, we've often drawn the unjustifiable conclusion that all creation was manifested just for us. What cosmic vanity our species is capable of!

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Some very good points there Bhudda & Ethan. I'd like however to play devil's advocate (no capitalization!). There are a vast number of possibilities other than the standard Christian or Muslim monotheist superstitions. ( and that also suggests an interesting question - how do we distinguish between superstition and religious belief?) Consider just one possibility amongst an infinity. There was and is a creator who attempted to create us 'in it's own image'. This being, or whatever you wish to call it, was bored silly with it's own omniscience and decided to step back and grant free will to a number of life forms ( why should our species be the only one?) hoping they would take after it's own image and supreme rationality. So, here we are, granted the wondrous gift of an astonishing potential for logical thought only to go against the creator's wishes by following superstition rather than using our God given brains . So, if this scenario has any truth to it, it's the religious who are in for a nasty shock on the day of judgment.
I want to put another question to committed Christians that appears to me to be so obvious it's staring us all in the face. Why keep the Old Testament at all?
And no, I don't take passages such as Daniel Ch7:V27 as justification.
____________________________________________________________________
I'm beginning to suspect all this theological hoo -ha has been induced by the occult act of placing a large number of MacIntosh power amps, unconnected in a circle.

I think we are on the same wavelength.

I call this issue "The Case of Divine Ennui."

Just how exciting would the Universe have been when God was all alone it? Of course he had to divest!

This is also a good argument for why God is likely not omniscient - if you knew exactly how everything would turn out, why bother?

Or, even if he did know, why not start the thing off with Noah?

I do not wish to seem to be making excuses for any specific version of God. Just conceptually, He is fine by me.

It's when people claim to know the specifics when bullshit creeps in to the equation.

Same goes for an afterlife. The more specific it is, the higher the odds of it being BS. (As far as I know... ...)

Way high on the BS meter are those version of Paradise, Heaven, etc...that are so carnal. "Streets paved with gold," "72 virgins"...yeah, the reason we are supposed to behave in this life is so we can have materialistic and carnal rewards in the next one!

Seems to work great at homicide bomber recruiting centers, though.

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"72 virgins"...yeah, the reason we are supposed to behave in this life is so we can have materialistic and carnal rewards in the next one!

Seems to work great at homicide bomber recruiting centers, though.

Little do they know...

Let's hope no riots ensue

All they need to do is start making more virgins!

Oh, wait.

I hope this next part isn't too inflammatory, but for many many members of that religion, likenesses of Mohammed are forbidden; yet they sure like to dress up in Mohammed costumes and try to look like the Prophet.

You can't draw his likeness, but you can parade around in Mohammed costumes?

Those crazy Imams.

They should all be busy stoning each other.

Sounds like you might have read the books of Dr. Micheal Newton, and maybe cross referenced it with something like..er.... Dr. Raj Baldev's books. (besides any personal knowledge thereof)

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Sounds like you might have read the books of Dr. Micheal Newton, and maybe cross referenced it with something like..er.... Dr. Raj Baldev's books. (besides any personal knowledge thereof)

I've not read those authors but I'll look them up. The Vedic tradition of knowledge appeals to me. The Judeo-Christian tradition is not so appealing.

Baldev:
"Two Big Bangs Created the Universe