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The kind of barking that I find on this thread and others are masturbatory because the rant is equally mindless, compulsive. And the fact that a lot of this rant is monotonous and repetitive also makes it masturbatory in nature.
ncdrawl, you should note that I'm not advocating some blind worshipping of Stereophile. If you go to the Nov '08 thread, I myself questioned the way WP handled the Ayre review, and in the past, when I saw fit, I raised some issues.
What I do have an issue with is that a lot of the posts are either repetitive or ill-considered and reductive. I'll use your post that I'm responding to as an example. Immediately you choose the cheesiest, most cartoonishly reductive model in your head to paint some picture, some "kiss asses running around saying oooohhh stereophile is so great and i love it yada yada," before saying, with a laughable condescension, "the world doesn't work that way."
Well, thank you Confucius. I'm just saying that there is always room for contrarian views - there SHOULD be, always - but when they're so poorly expressed, with all vitriol and venom and no insight or thought, it's just very very ugly, and I feel unfortunate to witness such foaming at the mouth. Embarrassing, really.
Geez, ncdrawl! I'm wringing hands?! Good grief! I'm categorized as a hand wringer due to the fact I don't agree with someone else's opinion?! An opinion, that's all it is. Not fact. That global warming must be reduced to the status of cult group think so as to not intrude on someone's "real" thought process is an opinion - and a rather rude opinion at that. Tell me a fact, something like, "The world doesn't work that way", and I'll be more open to accepting your opinion. Take my opinion and toss it in the trash heap just so you won't be inconvenienced and you have pushed more than a few of my buttons. I get my say, you get your's and we all get to discuss the matter. Discuss, not repeat the same thing over and over twenty times no matter which rebuttal is presented. Discussion is what intelligent adults do to resolve problems and reach consensus. No matter that one side still feels not talking to your opponents and denigrating their position and their intelligence is a good thing, the world doesn't work that way.
The fact that this has once more become a thread where, "I don't like it", "Why?", and "Because" has become the only chorus played is layed at my feet? C'mon, ncdrawl, as you once said to me, I thought you were smarter than that.
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
We got the point the first time. Why repeat the same thing twenty times? At least raise the level of discussion to the point where it can be called pedantic.
"Ahem ... I found the article informative, timely, applicable to our hobby and even occasionally humorous."
Adults get to choose what to read and what to ignore. Doing so is an adult response.
Those are not difficult concepts. Why must the response always be, "I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it.
The world is a diverse place and Sterophile's readership is a diverse bunch. I would strongly object if John chose to sanitize the magazine of everything that could not be presented as scientific fact and politically correct to everyone. Oh, yeah, I mentioned that too, that would leave only the "Measurements" section to be printed. What response did I receive?
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it.
How do you suppose stripping the magazine of everything that couldn't be measured and graphed would affect subscriptions? That's the only other argument I've seen here. That certain printed material is diagreeable to certain individuals (who have no regard for anyone else's opinion) and therefore one person or one group should get to call the shots at Sterophile and it should be a small group of idealogues who stomp their feet the loudest and longest.
On a larger scale isn't that what this last election was all about? How exactly do you see that having turned out?
It seems in too many of the recent "political" threads and too many audio threads alike one side presents numerous and varied rationalizations for their position while the opposing "opinion" can only fall back on, "I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
Well, then, if that is your only reason for the fit you are throwing, eventually you are simply going to have to get over it. Progress happens. Stomping the ground and repeating the same tired phrase, "I don't like it"
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it.
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it.
... isn't going to stop progress. Come up with an opinion that is more adult than "Because" and we can discuss the issue like adults. Behave as if you are an adult.
One side does not rule the world and they do not have the right to intrude on anyone's ability to learn new facts and gather diverse opinions. That is, IMO, how one group in the debate operates in order to come to a conclusion. Gather information from all available sources, compare and contrast those opinions and facts then - the important part - Think!
The other side, they fall back on "Because". If the simple task of moving ahead in your reading is so impossibly difficult, then there is a problem that goes deeper than "I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it.
Have you read all these "I don't like it" columns? I hope not. I would hope you have the ability to say, "That doesn't interest me and I can skip over the material that I find uninteresting." I would hope. But me? I am confronted with an unending string of "I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it."
"I don't like it.
It doesn't matter what I say, I know what the response will be and by now everyone else does too. And for that I am labelled by you to be a "hand wringer".
Geez, ncdrawl!
No matter what the right-wing-nut-jobs tell you guys, opinions are good and reaching your own is healthy. To wish everyone would fall in line with what you and you alone have accepted as "fact" and to dismiss the rest ...
The world doesn't work that way.
Jan, I would feel the same way if the magazine was constantly espousing right wing/conservative ideas.
It is an audio magazine. I want to see audio in the pages. not op-ed political/religious pieces.
Audio in an Audio magazine, what a concept.
Why?
"Because."
It has been pointed out several times that other than for the few remaining ditto-heads who refuse to think for themself, the topic being addressed here is not a "political" issue, it is a non-partisan human issue. Even if it were "political", are you incapable of ignoring topics that are not of interest to you? Do you read every word of every issue of Stereophile? Every word? All the ads? Everything?
And you know how I hate to disagree with you but there was nothing "religious" about the article. Where are we headed now with that connotation?
None the less, at the risk of being repetitive, and just so you can get this ...
"Ahem ... I found the article informative, timely, applicable to our hobby and even occasionally humorous."
An interesting magazine that dares to entertain me and challenges my opinions while expanding my thinking into all things audio.
What a concept.
Must everything in Stereophile be accompanied by a graph? This was about the audio industry and involved a tiny fraction of the output of Stereophile. What more needs to be said? Are you not interested in the audio industry? Do you want Stereophile to do away with everything that is not an equipment review?
yes.
equipment.music.
I dont give a damn about their stance on anything else.
Not even a nice try, ncdrawl.
That wasn't my question.
Here's the question. "Are you not interested in the audio industry? Do you want Stereophile to do away with everything that is not an equipment review?" A two parter.
You hit "copy/paste". How could you forget what the question was in such a short span of time?
ncdrawl, you got the mad cow?
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....Cow! (drool)
Didn't we have a poll a while back and the vast majority of us leaned conservative?
No, that was a national election you're thinking of and the majority of the people leaned to the guy who said enough of this conservative crap, it ain't working for the average guy.
Nationally, more people now identify as liberal to left leaning than they do the opposie. "Liberal" is ahead by something like 42% to 34%. The idea that El Rushbo keeps pushing that this is a center-right nation is just not true.
However, in the end the majority of the people just want a government that works when it's supposed to and doesn't put people in trailers that are dangerous to their health, or waste money on trailers paid for by tax dollars that never got delivered and eventually were destroyed or that nationalizes the financial system to the tune of 1.5 Trillion dollars in a give away to the guys that Paulson used to manage and have lunch with.
What's your question got to do with what Stereophile prints?
In search of accuracy
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1042/winds-of-political-change-havent--shifted-publics-ideology-balance
No,I'm talking about a poll on this site a while back. If I remember right most of the active members on this board leaned to the conservative side.
Here it is about...6:4 in favor of leaning right.
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=1&vc=1
What does that have to do with this thread and the issue of what Stereophile should print? Have we now made the decision that the environment is only a "liberal" issue and conservatives don't care about what happens to the planet?
BTW, I do believe your poll, LS, was taken on a thread where numerous members did not vote - I did not. We have a limited number of meambers participating in this thread. Would a poll taken here be representative of the membership as a whole? Would a poll on the forum be representative of the readership?
The recent election's exit polls gave the results I cited. Obviously, if you ask in another poll, you'll get different results. At one time McCain was ahead in the polls. We all know polls are migratory, based on the moment and the sampling rate.
However, whether the readers are liberal or conservative I am still left wondering how this affects what the magazine should print when the topic is neither?
Just saw the post, Lamont, and I gotta say, a great deal of those people don't post here no mo'. A significant # of people who post here now weren't even members back then. Doesn't mean that the ratio still doesn't hold, but it does mean that it's merely guesswork, dude. Why don't you conduct a new poll?
THe PEW Poll I cited is dated 25 Nov this year after the election and reflects the current vote. In addition, PEW has been doing this type of post election poll for decades and is the gold standard on this issue.
And it has nothing to do with Audio
The poll you cited is a poll. I can cite the actual election results and say that with a 53% majority, the Democrats have a valid point when they suggest the country is not a center-right nation.
If you wish to argue polls, start another thread that argues which poll is the most valid. Then ask the questions regarding various issues. We can all agree that George has a 20% approval rating, and that Congress is lower than that. People want a government that works - period. None of that is at issue here.
This thread is about Sterophile. There are unanswered questions that have been raised in this thread regarding what is appropriate for Stereophile.
Here are the questions once again.
Please, restrict your responses to providing adequate answers to those two questions. If you want to argue polls, start another thread. Such a poll might be interesting - or might not - at this time since, as has been pointed out, reading that old thread from two years ago you come across many names that haven't posted here in almost two years time. Many of those names I don't even recognize as being here for more than a flash. A new poll that reflects the events of the past two years might be of interest - or might not. However, any poll of the forum members needs to be justified as to its relevance to this topic before it can be discussed here.
The issue here, as I see it, is an issue of whether Stereophile should run informative articles that reflect the current thinking within the audio industry as a whole. Not how many listeners Limbaugh still retains.
I said active members. You missed it. Not my fault. Anyhow, it wasn't as long ago as I thought. 2007. Same old shit.
That's Monty's poll. You can still vote on that poll. It should be updated.
Sigh!...one cannot argue numbers with folk who simply do not look them up
The Presidents RCP average is 26%, not 20%. Congress is at 18.6%.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/polls/#rcp-avg-904
Why the left cannot leave a perfectly bad approval number alone and must pretend it is even lower is lost on me. It is universal. If 100,000 civilians are killed in Iraq, the left claims a million. If the President is at a new low of 26%, the left clams 20%. Do you folk not realize that fudging numbers does not help your cause?
This is not THE question but only YOUR spin on a question. I have already answered it. I do not want to read reviewers and editors political views in a magazine devoted to audio. I and many of the folk who do not share the magazines political slant find such posts offensive.
Again, 'your' question, not 'the' question. It is an attempt to use a very basic logic flaw to define the argument, sort of a combination of the 'strawman' falacy and the 'false either or' argument. One has to agree to several things to continue the discussion.
1. That your argument is the only argument
2. That your argument is not simply a strawman constructed to allow you argue against it...ie, that your strawman is the argument raised by your opponents.
3. That the only arguable issue is a false either or argument...either we remove all comment on all topics aside from the clearly audio or we allow all discussion including the offensive. It is a falacy because it ignores the universe of other possibliities between the extreems. One can discuss anything at all in the magazine except objectional or insulting arguments.
Sorry, grants you the authority to limit debate to areas YOU like while restricting my responses to your view of the issues. I prefer maintaining my freedom to note your errors when they appear, in this case the contention we are a liberal nation, presented without cite or proof as fact.
You are far more knowledgeable than I on matters audio. I read your posts with interest and gain from the experience. You are not more knowledgable then I on matters political. If you stick to opinion, I will simply disagree where necessary. When you make statements of fact that are wrong, I will cite the real numbers or details where I can.
You see a valid need for the magazine to insult conservatives through flippant throw away lines. I disagree. Both of our views are opinions and neither says a darned thing about audio.
If you want to hold random debate on politics in the Stereopile forum, the magazine has very generously provided a forum, the Open Bar for such debate. I am happy to argue there as long as you desire, but such debate has little or nothng to do with audio.
My greatest (and note I do not say the only issue) issue/question is 'how does the use of throw away political attack lines and discussion of trendy political/religious issues in any way aid in the discussion of audio excelence in an audio magazine'? No one has answered that at all.
Again polls differ. Arguing against the fact George has the lowest approval rating of any U.S. President since the day of Nixon's resignation garners you how many points? As you say, "fudging numbers does not help your cause." But if even a single % point makes you feel like this isn't really as bad as it is ...
You truly seem to be over the top in your attitude toward the left. It's obvious this is why you are objecting to the material found in the magazine, not because of what it says but because of what you prefer to read into the article.
This goes back to another question still unanswered, is caring for the environment strictly a left wing cause and does that then relieve the right from caring about happens to the planet? The attitude I see here is, if it offends some while interesting others then those who are interested should be ignored.
It is so inconvenient of you to disagree what the question is. The artcile in question is one pertaining to the audio industry. Therefore the question still is, should a magazine dealing with the audio industry report what the industry is thinking and doing? Would Car and Driver be out of place reporting on CAFE standards even though the right has historically not supported such measures? I think not, it is part of what affects the industry the magazine writes about. Would that make Car and Driver a left wing magazine? Hardly. Those who read the magazine are intrested in how such topics might affect their life. The same logic applies here.
Read again what I just posted. It should not be "insulting" if it reports on what affects your life and the hobby you support.
I'm not out to even try to argue politics, that is something no one ever truly wins and bad feelings are almost always the result.
However, what you still have not answered is the basic question of why you find it so difficult to ignore the 0.0002% of Stereophile you choose to find objectionable. Out of all the print that goes into each month's issue, why is it so difficult to ignore 0.002%? Do you always read everything in every issue of the nagazine?
Now, we have repeated this issue how many times?
Bigger issue...if, in the face of evidence, a LOT of evidence, that such comments are found offensive by a lot of readers, why continue them? What is gained? How is the magazine better?
You would not ask the same question if the subject was racist insensitivity, smearing some religion, or attacking some politically correct issue in an identicle manner. Why do you believe sliming ones politcs and view of the country is any different?
The readers who respond make it clear they are offended. Each probably has a different reason ranging from simple fatigue from having to read constant attacks in every format on our fundemental beliefs to having to read such nonsense in an audio magazine we like. Why folk are offended is far less important than the simple fact that many are and such offense is so easilly avoided as it serves no purpose in the first place.
Almost as many as your endless repition that there is no problem, regardless of the evidence to the contrary.
For goodness sake! There is no "evidence". There is evidence Stereophile has printed an article that should be of interest to the general population engaged in a hobby that is involved in the consumption of precious natural resources. Just like Car and Driver.
There is evidence the environment is not a partisan issue.
Equating this to racism or religious persecution is the cheapest shot you could have taken, but you went there anyway. The "evidence" is you have learned your lessons on how to lower the intelligence level of any argument quite well, Rush would be proud. Here's another question I expect no one to answer since no one will answer any of my previous enquiries. Do you honestly suspect John would print a racist statement in his magazine? Do you suppose he would condone the holocaust?
If we are finally to deal with "The Issue", not your issue but "The Issue", you need to address the basic question of why you choose not to ignore the small percentage of any article that you know you will not find agreeable. Do you choose to read The New York Times? I suspect not. Why, probably because you do not want to not read most of what you consider to be a leftist newspaper. But you choose to read articles that you know you will choose to find insulting in Stereophile.
I believe you need to address the issue of why you choose to be offended.
BECAUSE THAT IS "THE ISSUE".
Despite how you portray yourself on this thread, I do believe you are an adult with the thought process of an adult. It is evident that while a child will choose to react without thought for others an adult gets to - and often must - make choices that benefit others rather than just thinking of themself. Your complaint is not for "others', it is for your own benefit, that's all. This is not in dispute. The "others" can speak for themself, you are making this case strictly for yourself.
And here is "The Issue" and the prevailing evidence in its favor. 1) You choose not to ignore a small % of the whole that is Sterophile, 2) you choose to react in a childlike manner to that which you have chosen not to ignore and you choose to become offended over something non-partisan which in an adult world should offend no one and 3) you choose not to acknowledge that as adult you have the ability to freely choose just how you react to a situation.
That's one hell of a lot of poor choices you have made over 0.0002% of the entire output of Stereophile.
You choose to ignore my questions and you choose to insert your attitude toward left leaning persons into this discussion. Not to say what you are complaining about is left leaning - it cleary is not, you have chosen to label it so against all evidence to the contrary. You have certainly made plain your chosen reaction to anyone who does not agree with you.
All of these are your choices to make. You have consistently chosen what is solely in your interest and to hell with the rest of us. That, sir, is how a child reacts and it is not how an adult chooses to respond. As I said, I do believe you to be an adult with the thought capacity of a thinking, reasoning adult. Why then do you insist this is a problem that resides with Stereophile when it obviously is your choice to make, your choice how you will respond? In other words, why do you choose not to ignore 0.002% of this magazine and, if you do make a poor choice in that arena, why then do you choose to be insulted by your previous poor choice? It is your own decision over what you have chosen to be your reaction that is the insult. To you, to me, and to John for accusing him of being responsible for how you should choose to react. That is the act of a child and not an adult.
That is "The Issue" we need to address in this thread. What Sterophile has printed has nothing to do with this thread. It is all about how you choose to react. So, yes, you are correct, I see no issue with Stereophile . The issue is with you and you alone as an adult.
This is a problem that is within your power to resolve on your own without accusing or suggesting Stereophile is intentionally trying to insult you or any group.
You are an adult, behave as such.
Now, that has been repeated once again. Will I have to repeat it yet another twenty times before you get it into your head that you have a choice in this issue? Either you choose to read something that you know you will find disagreeable or you make the choice not to do so. Either you choose to become insulted or you choose not to get insulted and you actually take the time to consider not only why Stereophile might find such an article of value to all of its readers but also why you would choose to be insulted over such a matter.
When are you going to choose to behave like an adult?
Awful lot of verbiage Junior saying absolutely nothing. I have no desire to argue on the issue. You know my position and could care less. I feel more or less the same about yours.
If you feel the magazine is making best use of its ink and paper with throw away political attack and commentary on the current non audio trend du jour, fine. Go for it but you are arguing with yourself. As I have already posted, nothing I say or do will change the position of the magazine on the issue.
If you want to argue politics, that I would be happy to do so as I know that cold. As to my debate style, I am sorry if refuting nonsense with actual cites and numbers bothers you. I also will not take credit for your failures in basic logic. I find having some knowledge of HOW to argue is useful for it lets me avoid logic traps and note those of others. I am a veteran of the political wars and I know that stuff cold. I can smell a bad poloitical argument a mile off and have heard it all, every talking point and DCN fax faux fact and figure.
I am not going to waste any more time arguing with you about politics in Stereophile and its effect on some readers. Our letters speak for themselves. If you want to argue politics, take remedial civics, logic 101, discover Constitutional law and read the dailies and then come back prepared for battle.
I look forward to it.
Then I do hope this ends this sorry thread.
Only a fool or someone who just cannot admit when they are wrong (same thing I guess) would believe I stuck around here for eight pages of this nonsense because I do not care.
Only a fool or someone who cannot admit when they are wrong would think I have been arguing - and a only true fool would believe I have been "arguing" with myself - and only that same person would believe I have not taken on all comers. You obviously saw this as a battle. I did not. You obviously feel I must loose so that you can "win". That's the saddest thing with you right wingers. You don't know how to behave like an adut.
Alright, you friggin'fool, get it in your head that it is not about changing the magazine. It is about you changing how you react to the situations you find yourself presented with. Let me tell you just who you remind me of. You remind me of the guy who goes into a bar in Chicago and overhears someone in the corner of the room say they don't like The Bears. Rather than allow that everyone has a right to their own opinion and that he was not specifically addressing you in the first place, you want to get in this guy's face for insulting you and all those other Bears fans. When the police come to break up the brawl they hawl your dumbass away because you do not have the capacity to behave like an audlt and make the decisions an adult is required to make in society. This is the same thing, you do not have the capacity to behave like an audlt. This last post proves that. You end with a challenge to "meet you in the alley". Good grief!
No, no, you do not. You know how to become enraged when you do not get your way. You do not know how to respond to a civil question and your only response is to repeat the same sad BS over and over and over. You behave like a dittohead. Your Pavolian response to anything you perceive as "leftist" is uncalled for in a civil discussion. You behave like a spoiled child and I have no intention of "debating" a child.
Uh, you take "credit"? You don't even understand my logic. If you had, we would have ended this discussion six pages ago. If you had, you would have answered one of my questions. What you do not take "credit" for is your inability to accept responsibility for your own actions.
Then why didn't you display any of your "knowledge" during the course of this thread? I saw nothing but, "I don't like it." You never listened to anyone else's opinion. You never said anything new. You never acknowledged that you reacted poorly becaue that would mean you "loose". That's not debating and its certainly not even arguing. It's trying to shout down the other side. That's one of the biggest problems with you ditohead right wingnuts. You don't know how to behave in public.
You are incapabale of smelling your own finger! Do you really want to argue over Bushs's historically low poll numbers? He is the most despised U.S. President in modern history. His policies are the most objectionable of any modern U.S. President. Now, do you really want to argue whether his poll numbers are in the bottom of the toilet or somewhere around the lower third of the bowl? Do you truly want to argue just how big of a turd he is?
Geez, I'm going to say this for hopefully the last time. It is the effect you choose for yourself that is at stake here. If you truly do believe JA would not place a racial comment or insult a religious group in Stereophile, which I hope you do, why on Earth would you make the ridiculous leap off a cliff to thinking he would intentionally insult any other group. The article was timely and informative. Period. You cannot accept anything that isn't already in your skull. That's the problem here.
It would be unseemly of me to do battle with the handicapped. Other than that, I do not see politics as a blood sport. It is the fools such as you who feel it must be so and that the other side must be beaten down before you can feel good about yourself. That's a debate I won't engage in.
You leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Whatever...talk to me when you want to discuss audio.
I have no problem with that. I assume when it comes to audio what occured here stays here.
I respect your opinions in audio, You know more of that topic than I.
Jan
Will you please stop with the relentless quote, post, quote, post, quote, post, quote, post...
Just write an entire paragraph or two in response. Stop the quoting out of context shit you lazy bum.
Take a pill and read my posts here, LS.
Putting aside for now the proven fact that most Americans don't even know which part of the planet Australia is in. (most think it's somewhere between Italy and Germany). It may give some perspective to this debate if you know the contempt Bush has caused the US to be held in just doesn't include the Middle East. The US is seen as very much on the nose down here in Australia. The election of Obama has given some of us hope however. The problem for Obama will be the enormous power of the US military and other lobby groups pulling strings behind the scenes in Washington.
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