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http://www.musicdirect.com/product/83846 If I read the description, what is it saying? It will give me all that Shunyatatatatatatatata, can provide, how is that quantified, into something that means anything? Now it's a FLEXIBLE cord, moving into rock formations, I'm sure the GRANITE model is next?
That's what I read, what is the slew rate? IM distortion, incomplete specs, really.
The freq response is extremely LIMITED, horrible actually the upgraded 6n1P has much more drive capacity to it's load, which makes the stuff I use sonically superb. Slew rate, what is it on this thing, most of mine are either 800v/us or the latest amps I'm told are....hold on 2000V/uS that's into test equipment territory...it's what makes it all sound terrific. Look into some updated ckts, you are not up to the best yet. minimum of like 500K top end come on it done on all of my stuff, and the stuff might even be a slight bit lower price. What is teh slew rate on this? It's one of my main things, and I've found it matters.....and a very very braod freq response, makes it come ALIVE!!! 20-20,000 is like back 30 years ago, really Why would I want to limit bandwidth and speed coming out of a SACD player, speed baby. Send me one, I'll compare it to the junk I use, and I'll give ya an honet comparison reprot, so far nothing wants to outdo high speed wide bandwidth
I'm glad you posted that link because I spent 10 minutes yesterday trying to find where I might have said something you could perceive as an attack. So let's look at that thread. I have my pages set to show more posts per page, so I'll use post numbers instead of page numbers.
My first post addressing you is #43402 - 06/25/08 12:35 PM. In that post I disagreed that a "perfectly good piece of gear is almost impossible to obtain," and I proved the point by posting a graph of a typical room response below 200 Hz, side by side with a graph of the response of a typical power amplifier. The room varies more than 30 dB, and the amp is flat within 1 dB from less than 10Hz to past 40 KHz. I may have disagreed with your basic premise, but I was totally polite and even agreed with many of your other points.
You then came back with, "I have never measured a room that had that poor of response, or even close, 30+ db variation." Since I measure rooms for a living, and know that a 30 dB span is typical for rooms other than very large "great room" spaces, I replied, "This is because you don't understand low frequency behavior in domestic size rooms, or the right way to measure LF response."
Now, in hindsight I can see how that could be taken as an attack on your knowledge. It was the correct answer! And in the months since that initial exchange I've come to understand that you really do not know much about acoustics in domestic size rooms. Or measuring microphones either.
Oh, that's easy! By posting repeatedly in three different forums that I'm incompetent and dishonest even though I patiently explained all of your errors. But you kept at it anyway, ignoring everything I said and continuing to attack and belittle me. The accusations of dishonesty were especially uncalled for.
So you're still accusing me of intentionally faking the data in my graphs? Un-fricken-believable!
Steve, do us all a favor and download the free REW software, and get either a Radio Shack SPL meter or one of the inexpensive microphones in my comparison article. Then measure any untreated room 30 by 20 by 10 feet or smaller at the listening position, and post the REW graphs here. Not averaged at 1/3 octave, but the raw response with a gate time of 200 milliseconds. Deal?
--Ethan
Nope, 20-25khz at -0.1db, not -1db or -3db. -1db is well past 100khz. So you just misinformed the public by limiting the frequency response of my preamplifier to 20khz.
Here is the link to the 6n1p and variations specs.
http://www.tubes.ru/techinfo/HiFiAudio/6n1pvi.html
The plate current is slightly more for the E88cc, so the E88cc is slightly better, and thus the drive. So you provided misinformation of the tubes.
The plate resistance of the 6n1p is approx 7.5k vs only 2.7k for the E88cc (calculate using Rp= u/Gm). This means that both the frequency response and slew rate of the E88cc are much greater than the 6n1p. So more misinformation to the public.
By the way, although the distortion levels are so low one would not notice, but since you are so interested, the E88cc has at least 20db less HD and IMD than the 6n1p. The IMD of my preamplifiers are approx .05%.
As one can see, the 6n1p is quite inferior to the JJ E88cc tube.
See above. And one can manipulate the slew rate by changing the peak voltage, frequency response and other mechanisms. That is why frequency response is the superior method.
See point above.
After posting such grossly inaccurate information to attack my components, I am suppose to loan you a preamplifier for an honest test. Right.
I think once you read page 4 on in "Upgrade Paths" and the entire "Accuracy" strings, you will come out with a quite different impression than what Ethan attempts to portray.
There are so many things to look for, and below I have suggested just a very few for those who do not want to wade through the strings.
What is interesting is that Ethan's own contradicting statements and Ethan's very own earlier graphs speaks volumes, despite all of ethan's attempts at distorting the truth. Plus he uses many more manipulative, deceptive, and misleading tatics, which I will explain below. So let's start.
I ask more than once that he be careful with the insinuations of me in Upgrade Paths. Ethan conveniently left that out. He pulls this kind of tatic throughout the strings (as well as other tatics).
Here is a reply to an Ethan sneak attack, where I had not previously posted. I only needed to quote from previous posts to demonstrate that ethan has a difficult time telling the truth. http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=2&vc=1 , post #44255
Here is just one link (among several) where Ethan suddenly changes test conditions. This is also a favorite tatic of Ethan's. http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...part=5&vc=1 , #45380. Now read my reply post, #45387.
I went back to Upgrade Paths and quoted that he used the very same data for both graphs, so the same room.
One more. Ethan sometimes quotes only partial information, or partial sentences, which changes the meaning. Of course when the sentence is completed, the meaning is quite different. Just another tatic ethan uses to manipulate and mislead unsuspecting individuals. Below are some other tatics etc that ethan uses.
I was correct and Ethan was unable to refute the scientific evidence that he manipulated the test conditions/data and thus the room graphs. All one has to do is read "Upgrade Paths" string followed by the "Accurate" string listed here.
http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showf...e=0&fpart=1
There are some other things to notice.
1) While in the Upgrade paths string, notice he could not remember if he used the highly accurate AKG mic or the RS meter. If there was a huge gross difference, as he now claims, he would have seen the response down 13db at 12khz and down 24db at 20khz on the graph with the RS digital meter. But he never states any problems. See below and my initial post in Accuracy for more information on this subject.
2) In the accuracy string, notice he never refutes any of my first post scientific evidence I presented with scientific information. He just continually makes scripted generic general statements at best. (Yet he chides DCStep in "subjective fact.. page 23, #50718 for the same thing he does throughout the accuracy string.)
3) Notice that he remembers using the RS spl meter only after the fact, after I presented the evidence that the room graph data was inaccurate. In Upgrade Paths, Ethan could not remember if he used the AKG or RS meter. So the graphs of both mics are pretty close, approximately 2 to 3db difference at 20khz. One would easily see a 22db difference, but there is not. So much for ethan's 10 mic comparison being accurate.
From Ethan's own earlier graphs (before Upgrade Paths and Accuracy strings) of the RS meter and Earthworks mic, both obtained from Ethan's websites (he has two websites), one can check the close average accuracy of the RS meter's response to the highly accurate Earthworks mic. In fact, notice the average similarities between approx 250hz and 20khz. No 22db difference between mics that ethan would have you to believe.
So the RS meter is accurate to both the AKG and Earthworks mics even before the Upgrade Paths string was started. But then the RS meter suddenly becomes grossly inaccurate after later. A matter of approximately a few days.
How huge is the difference, Ethan now claims, between the highly accurate AKG, Earthworks mics and ethan's sudden "grossly" rolled off RS mic? Just look at his 10 mic comparison, and compare the RS to the AKG and Earthworks mic average responses.
Now recheck ethan's earlier graphs comparing the Earthworks mic average response to the RS digital meter average response. Suddenly Ethan's RS mic has become grossly inaccurate, 22db difference. So I have demonstrated in multiple different ways how the RS meter is close to reference accuracy.
So not only is Ethan's typical room graphs a fake (in Accuracy string), but his latest RS meter measurements in 10 mic comparison is also a fake using his own statements and his own earlier graphs.
One can see why he condemns the RS meter at high frequencies in the 10 mic comparison. It is his attempt to nullify a portion of the scientific evidence I presented concerning the fake room graphs. Of course there is much more evidence Ethan has not been able to refute using scientific evidence, just scripted general comments.
5) Continually changes the conditions etc. As only one of many examples, notice the 2 room graphs (20-200 and 200-20khz) and Ethan stating they were made in different rooms. However, from the Upgrade Paths Ethan states that the two graphs were made using the exact same data, so obviously the same room. There are many other examples one will find in the accuracy string. And I expose him time and time again.
6) If I have alot to learn as he claims, and he is such an expert, Then he should have correct any problems by page 2. But he does not, just excuses, sidesteps, and dodges any scientific reply for the whole string, approx 30 days.
Notice I asked him several times in the string to reply in scientific terms, but I always get the run around with some prepared generic general response such as you don't understand, you have holes in knowledge. Unfortunately, he cannot explain any further than a typical public relations, PR guy.
I could go on and on as Ethan continually attempts to manipulate and mislead but you will see it yourself in the Accuracy string.
Oh, that's easy! By posting repeatedly in three different forums that I'm incompetent and dishonest even though I patiently explained all of your errors. But you kept at it anyway, ignoring everything I said and continuing to attack and belittle me. The accusations of dishonesty were especially uncalled for.
Read the strings and find out for yourself. Find all the scientific evidence and his patient explaining he claims to have used.
So you're still accusing me of intentionally faking the data in my graphs? Un-fricken-believable!
I just presented the evidence, just the facts, plain and simple. Your own earlier statements and your own earlier graphs tell quite a different story despite all your attempts to distort the truth.
Yupper, prove me wrong. People have listened to my stuff that is maligned by the unknowing, then once listened to, it's a revalation, that I'm right, thus if you can prove me wrong, then you can be right, I bet you can't. How do you publish a spec 25-20,000 and now you say cus it's -.1dB it really goes out to 100K. Why don't you say it goes to 100K instead of 20K. 100K is still substanially less than a really wide broadband amp and pre amp.
How can I attack your components, I'm only COMENTING on your published specs, they don't impress me, they are ordinary, mediocre, and don't reach out and say, high performance stuff. I'm usually right on instinct. What is the slew rate of your ckts anyway? I've been told anything over 50v/uS is not heard, but that was proven big wrong since I had ckts that bad, then rebuilt into modern faaaaast 800-2000V/Us and the sound improvement is monsterous ,instantly audible, when compared to the old ckts. Speed isn't just for cars anymore. Call me a speed freak, but it matters, big time along with super low distortion.
If you think my preamplifiers suddenly drops off at 25khz, you really do lack even the basics of understanding of electronics. All your analog components in your system have a response of -.1db at some frequencies.
The E88cc has higher slew rate than the 6n1p. And so does the 6H30, and many other tubes. You got screwed Dup if you think the 6n1p is the greatest tube. I thought you were only interested in 20khz tops? Seems you have changed your mind. I see you skipped the question about the slew rate of two different amplifiers. Slew rate can easily be manipulated whereas frequency response cannot.
You can send me a check for the basic information.
Time to go.
Dup, Even you can't be as stupid as you make yourself sound, tho' I know you revel in being the "Joe Six-Pack" of the audio world.
"Proprietary" is an adjective that modifies the noun "test," not "hearing" in SAS's post. So you may have read it, but you certainly don't understand the most rudimentary concepts of language and grammar.
So what did you expect, Rvance, from somebody who can't even spell "the"?
Of course Dup is a poseur. Look, nobody is too stupid to spell "the." And nobody consistently violates normal English syntax (as your note about the adjective/noun placement points out...) more often than a retarded 1st-grader, unless he is shielding himself from rational commentary by donning the mask of the moron. That is DUP's out. He doesn't have to participate in rational discourse. He can play the convenient idiot whenever the going gets sticky.
If you want to know where DUP really is, just go listen to his system sometime. It offends all honest attempts, by all other honest manufacturers and dealers, to offer at least some similitude to the infinite range, space, and dynamics of live music. Now, you can't go to his house (who would want to?), but you can go to any number of dealers and listen to his speakers, hooked up to cheap wire and murky electronics (but pounded to 110 decibels -- like DUP's persona, a convenient mask for deficient quality) and hear for yourself.
Look, DUP is just another miserable humanoid looking for comfort without commitment. This is his way of calling for help. Ignore the call.
Happy tunes.
Read his website, how he describes his proprietary listening, where he doesn't explain what it is, just says that is what he does. How is his listening different than others that listen without special methods? Are you for real? If it's so SPECIAL, that it is PROPRIETARY, which infers something so special and different, he should give an idea of just how special it is, sounds like ad speak blather. not impressed at all. Everything is special in audio land. Until the next month's special is announced. Look in a dictionary what Proprietary infers, I'm baffled at how he listens unlike so many others. Must be really special.
Cheap wire, murky electronics, yet, through it all, LIVE is what it is. Sometimes ya just gotta know which cheap wire and which "murky" electronics to use to form the LIVE EXPERIENCE. I started out as a RETARDED 1st grader, I skipped Kindegarten, so I was a pretty smart RETARD.
Skipped kindergarten, that explains it. That's where you learn everything you need to know! There's a book; it's not too late to catch up.
DUP, cheap wire and murky electronics does not make "live," it makes "amplified."
Exactly.
So all you have are personal accusations? As expected. And please tell Joel I said Hi.
Speaking of conveniently omitting parts of quotes, and ducking scientific evidence, I see you ducked my challenge to you to measure the LF response in a normal size room at high resolution and post the graphs here. Hurry now! We're all waiting in great anticipation!
--Ethan
Get the good cheap wires, and the good murky electronics, then it's sonic bliss. If it can be done for less, with cheap and Murk, then that's the way to go.
DUP, I apologize for calling you a "retard."
You are a "smart" retard. There, that fixes it. And you got all the way past the 1st grade?? Amazing. This gives new meaning to the educational desideratum of the decade, "No Child Left Behind."
Buddha, as usual you are right. If you can hear the murk, it's amplified. If you like it, then you could make millions, in this dicey economic environment, if you opened a store, and you could find a few thousand OTHERS who prefer murk.
I think it's gonna take more than a village...
Funny how all the stuff that is suposed to be cheap, murky, and not up to the ad driven ears of the tone def, that think the exoctic over priced stuff is the hi fi gems. Too bad ya just don't get it. The good stuff costs less and sounds better, cus it's designed by people who know electronics and acoustics, etc, not designed by the ad dept of scammers and marketeers. So far the cheap stuff has won every listening test done. It's not cheap as far as doing what it should do, it's cheap realitive to the extrodinarily overpriced stuff some wanna think is the way to top end sound. The uninformed who think single 5" driver is sound reproduction of the entire spectrum, the Elks who think they hear improvements in wall outlets and line cords. Once you understand the basics, you begin to realize, you are truly uninformed, and mis guided. Basics 101, lotsa good FAST, pristine watts, lotsa'quality, fast, non distorting drivers, DSD/SACD, you now have superior reproduction at home. Due to the quality of the cheap, murky as the uninformed classifiy it, it truly is a beautiful thang. Sy Syms taught me large, An educated consumer is our best customer, I found the right suppliers in audio, keep searching, the money you save will, not help me one bit. Superior design, by superior minds, makes it all come together.
Why are you dragging me into your nonsense? I am not a proponent of either wall outlets or power cords.
Yup...'Live' is an experience, not necessarily great sound.
I assume you are a proponent of at least having wall outlets and power cords? Hard to get them WATTS without any electricty.
Well, perhaps Elk uses the Tesla system - no outlets or power cords required.
I have provided an abundance of scientific evidence to back up my claims that you manipulated the data/the room graphs that you posted to the public (my evidence is posted in accuracy string, page 1). No one forced you to post those room graphs. This also means that any videos that contain these inaccurate graphs also contains inaccurate information. So far you have not refuted any of the evidence.
I have also posted the many different tatics you use to sidestep the issue, see page 6, #50781, and Accuracy string. Your latest post above, #50812, is another perfect example of you sidestepping the issue again, which is your manipulation of the data/the room graph (and now his latest RS meter measurements in 10 mic comparison).
Yes.
It also services to light the room.
Actually, forget about showing your measurement of "any" smallish room. I want to see a response graph for your personal listening room. Come on Mr. "I went to college for this stuff" - let's see it!
--Ethan
Where did you find specs? All I see there is pseudo-science intended to impress the uneducated, and outright snake oil like a report comparing the sound of different resistors. You mean Steve actually has specs for that stuff he sells? I wonder why?
--Ethan
Barely, if you look on his site, click the pre amp, very very limted specs..the standard Stereo Review specs, 20-20,000 THD Julian Hirsch musta wrote em. And teh specs are not impressive at all. Nothing reaches out and says, this stuff might be something special. I still didn't get a response on the slew rate for his ckts, I guess they are in teh Emerson radio area from 1936. But of course the claim is they can be faslified, manipultated, and of course what he publishes cannot. I offered to take one of his works and compare it to my "reference" junk as many imply, and give him an honest opion, I'd even have others listen along. so far my stuff has smoked all. I suspect it would cream this stuff big time. What's the slew rate Jery? Why anone would want an all tube pre is beyond me, this is the 21st century........move into it. hybrid baby, ya gets the best of both, when it's made right I also see part of the "specs" is the use of frozen wires, now that has to really make things better. When ya don't have the specs, ya throw in some meaningless wire crap. And even teh line cord is something special, since the line cord has a brand name..Jena, what ever that implies for sound quality. I'm not knocking this stuff, just COMMENTING on his descriptions/lacking specs on his stuff that is so fine. And pricey, for what I read in teh spec sheet. It don't even have a remote control? eeessshhh. Let's see teh inside photos, to get an idea of build quality, most mfgs show inside, show me yours. Or is it an undersized unit?
A few specs, and a lot of drivel. http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/pream11a.htm
Oh Oh, I just caught a line in the writings, it uses vacuum tube regulators? Come on dude, that's how they get the DISTORTION in guitar amps, so teh voltages sag and create that tube sound musicans want!! Forget it, never mind, slew rate is irrelevant on this stuff. This is 1930's ckts. Proper tube ckts in teh 21st century and later 20th all use solid state regulation for tube voltages etc. Vacuum tube regulation, you write it up like using tube regulators is a good thing. You gotta be kidding, I worked on equipment in teh 70's and 80's that used tube regulation, it was a nightmare, constant problems, on industrial equipment, that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, it's baaaad. That's why they invented solid state diodes, regulators etc. You have lost any credibility for me.
I spent years developing proprietary multi-method listening tests and it certainly was not easy. Even the most expensive preamplifiers are not tested and checked for true accuracy, just voiced like the inexpensive ones. My methods are truly a major advancement.
http://www.sasaudiolabs.com/preamp1a.htm
http://snipurl.com/4bs50
Perhaps because tubes sound better?
Drivel indeed. I loved this line:
"Vacuum tube voltage regulation. NO solid state regulation anywhere in the direct signal path."
Since when is voltage regulation in the direct signal path? I thought Steve said he went to school for this stuff. Well, somebody has to graduate last in the class.
That's a great point. Like "He who smelt it, dealt it" - you gotta to be suspicious of someone who claims repeatedly that others falsify their data. In my case I gain nothing from faking results. Hell, my Comparison of Ten Measuring Microphones article is a public service. I gain nothing from showing the Radio Shack meter as better or worse than it is. Lack of motive, your honor.
LOL!
Good point. I'm sure Steve will show us photos of the insides the day after he posts a graph of the response in his personal listening room.
--Ethan
Ethan, I believe this kind of talk is the same sort of thing you so passionately asked me to prevent from happening to you. So, stop it, please. We can disagree without being dismissive and disparaging.
When tubes are done right, in proper portion of the ckts. I put into evidence properly done hybrid ckts. all tube is not, hybrid is. http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/preamplifier/ultra_ec.htm
Like the tv preachers who keep telling you that everything you do is WRONG, while the likes of Jimmy Swagart is out cavorting with hookers, and taking your money. don't do as I do, do as I say. Let's see some inside pictures of all this propritary stuff, listening tests, yeah, what kind of room is so propratary, and all this extremely precious methods, unlike any other, amazing, how audio equipment is pretty much standardized, and yet, there are ones who claim to have done it so so so differently, THEY have the answer, back to tv evangelicals....I have the answer, and send in your money. He who claim too much, may have not much to offer. DUP, grandson of CONFUSED, great Chinese error Philosopher from the non working dynasty Sum Ting Wong.
Now hold on there a minute Stephen! Yes, I did complain about Steve Sammet's incessant attacks on me personally, on my ethics (faking data), and my competence. You told me you PM'd Steve and told him to cut it out, and he did. For about a week. Now he's back with all the same accusations of fraud and incompetence, and you have done nothing. His posts maligning me are FAR worse than what I just said! Yet you call me out? You get Steve Sammet to stop disparaging me and I'll gladly stop disparaging him. But he started it, and he has been infinitely more personal in his attacks, and accused me of far worse than my mild post. Most pathetic of all is that I'm far more competent than Steve Sammet in the field of audio!
--Ethan
perhaps...all I have heard are normal tubed systems...primaluna and jolida come to mind, and they sound better that solid state to me
More: Plain and simple, this is prejudice against the scientific viewpoint. DUP arguably understands far more than most posters here about how audio really works, yet he is the one who gets banned, has his posts moved to the Dead Zone, and is allowed to post in only the Rants area. All the while Jan is allowed to spew the most vile personal insults against whomever he wants. C'mon, let's be fair, okay?
--Ethan
Don't even go there, Ethan. This forum is very fair. Too fair sometimes. Here is a problem with the way we interact on this forum: We take for granted that we know everything that is being conducted or communicated, believing that it's all happening in front of our faces. It is not. If that were the case, for instance, we all would have been bombarded by far more spam than we actually were. I corrected it silently, as I have done many other problems on this forum.
If I sound impatient or annoyed, I am. I'm tired in general, and I'm tired of this petty behavior. If this were a classroom, I would separate you and Steve. Stop acting like children, both of you. Get over it, please.
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