Carl, please seriously and carefully listen to different capacitors in identical applications in an A/B comparison.

ONLY then can back to us with an opinion based upon experience - rather than just assumption and bias.

And what do I expect to hear? Since you heard differences, please let me know YOUR experience on different sounding CAPACITORS. And being different, which one then is teh right one? So one made the piano sound like what, versus the good one that sounded like what. Or where you just changing values of capacitor, and now even know it, like one was way out of spec, versus ones that met spec, of curse you can hear what in a capacitor, in what section of teh ckt? Power supply, feedback, where in teh ckt, and in what component pre amp, amp, cus we want to compare similar things, if I change a cap value in the phono input section, of course it might change how a phono cartridge sounds, but then phono cartridges could be affected MM possibly, but tell me what you changed where, but then you know, I have to change it on teh same unit you did, other wise, we is not proving anything right? Scinece says reproduce the same effects under teh same conditions, not just random crap. So let me know how you tested your ideas on different sounding caps......this should be a good one.

Read the article ... that would be a "good one".

This is easy.

I have only replaced capacitors with the same values as the originals. For example, I have replaced the caps in speaker crossovers with higher quality poly caps.

The improvement is obvious: greater clarity and openness with a smoother sound. It is akin to the difference between a good preamp and one that is quite a bit better. The same type of sound but with more clarity and delicacy.

I have similarly have heard improvements in modified preamps and CDP's.

Give it an honest shot some time, without preconception, and you may very well hear the difference as well.

So "poly" caps are the nirvana? Polyester, polystyrene, which type did you use, and what did you remove that the one you put in made such an improvement? A defective cap? So far it sounds like, you know you changed something, and of course it was with a "better" one, and you of course heard an "improvement"..this is exactly teh audio nonsense that sells $500 pieces of wire. What exactly did you take out? and what did you replace it with, how is the one you put in "better"..what spec on the cap made it better? So far your "test" is impossible to do, there is nothing going on.....better, so like your cap you took out was under rated for it's use in this speaker system, how is the new one BETTER? If a cap is BETTER, there has to be something measurable in it to call it BETTER? I really think you have a vivid imagination....better temp stabilty, what is BETTER? The ad that sold you the BETTER one, better pictures? Di dyou ask the mfg of teh speaker why it is better after you cahnged this cap, certainly they would love to know how you came upon, an improvement just like that. How could i change teh capacitors in my speakers without making a mess of teh tuned ckt that is already done by teh mfg...as they do design the crossover to do a function, based on desing ideas....and Legacy does listen to each speaker besides testing and measuring them before they ship them, they ain't no in teh box sitting on the shelf at Best Buys....and which cap in the crossover? sounds liek a random act of nothing is what you did.

What caps in what pre amp, what cap in what CDP? So far that also sounds like random BS? What spec changed in teh pre amp? What caps did you remove and what repalced it, a change in voltage ratings, what material type cam eout, what went in....so far, you are not making a good argument for doing busy work, and just guessing at something that seems so random and dopey.

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This is easy.

I have only replaced capacitors with the same values as the originals. For example, I have replaced the caps in speaker crossovers with higher quality poly caps.

The improvement is obvious: greater clarity and openness with a smoother sound. It is akin to the difference between a good preamp and one that is quite a bit better. The same type of sound but with more clarity and delicacy.

I have similarly have heard improvements in modified preamps and CDP's.

Give it an honest shot some time, without preconception, and you may very well hear the difference as well.

Now, there was no need for that. Can you give me idea on what capacitors I should replace the original capacitors in my Sansui speaker sets? They are Sansui 2500. Here are the specs.

http://www.classicsansui.net/images/Literature/Speakers/SP2500%202.jpg

Cool, collector items, they must be like 30 years old? I would change the 2 green caps in the top right corner, with a BETTER green, that lime green reminds me of a 1970 Road Runner, beep beep. Of course neither one of us have any idea where the caps are in the ckt and what they are doing without a schematic, unless you trace it out and draw a schematic, now get to work, but that never stops arbitrary upgrades to make it BETTER!!!!! Thse white 5 watt resistor looks like it needs to be replaced with a BETTER one....I can hear the spacious sounds from here.....

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and Legacy does listen to each speaker besides testing and measuring them before they ship them,

Setting aside bad quality control, why would this be necessary if every single equivalent part sounds the same as any other?

the same way things work teh same as they make more and more of teh same item. Why does the car made at the begining of teh day do what the car made 12 hours later? cus' they use teh same parts in teh same model! Why is audio stuff so out of anything mfg liek anything else.....what would be rally good, is if you get a meter, a capactiacne meter and check all teh parts you took out see if they meet teh specs, and then measure teh new ones, and get mfg data sheets on the new ones versus the old ones, and do some SCIENCE and real electrical concepts, and see what is different, or not different, then when you see the specs are the same since you said you replaced one with the EXACT same specs right, or just guessed and took the word of the traveling capacitor salesman, as he was passing through, and had some left over caps from a previous job? cus if you can here a difference, that is so audible, you certainly can measure it.....how could anything get mfg, if things couldn't get measured...sure would take a long time just guessing at what part "sounds" good today....why are POLY caps BETTER than what you took out? And which Poly? Many different kinds, specs? Or we don't need no stinkin' specs.....I bet spacious was used in teh ads for teh magic caps, where they magic caps, or just bizzared branded, with mystical fancy wraps.....how much, that's another good question, since real electrical designers, making products, need to get the specs, for temp stabiltiy and get best price cus' that's how the company can make money, random caps don't make it in the real world. What did you install, brand, specs etc, where in teh ckt? On what speakers? you got me curious.....since when I bought my speakers, I assumed it was a finished product, so I don't think i will be second guessing the original design, since they know a lot more about what it needs than i would, guessing taht a Poly cap is better, better, in what way, elaborate, what spec is BETTER, not the imaginary soudn you claim, something in teh physcial makeup of the new cap was different, how was it BETTER? you did say it was a better capacitor? Higher voltage withstands, temp ratings, what was better/

Standard variations in driver, other parts in the crossover, to make sure it's up to spec, they do measure it too. they listen i bet for anything defective, they certainly don't pull a driver out of a box from teh mfg, and never make sure it's operational, anything can happen things do fail out of the box in the real world...stuff sure does in my line of work.....what if the guy assembling it just forgot to hook up a wire onto the speaker, simple stuff things do happen.

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Yup, that's how electrical design works, when a ckt needs a capacitor of a specific type, voltage, capacitance, ya get a piece of wire, brilliant. Now if you where looking for a zero ohm resistor, maybe. And yes there is such a thing.

You realize how rediculas my post is, but using my "improved cap" specs that I listed, how many people out there would believe it was better? My stated specs were truthful and eliminate many of the negative traits that makes using a capacitor difficult. Oh yea, I did leave out one important spec of my wonder cap. It has no capacitance.
I am familiar with zero ohm resistors but always have trouble with choosing a tolerance value. I have tried to get the manufacturer to hand select zero ohm resistors that fall on minus side of the +/- tolerance. Zero ohm resistors really do have a +/- tolerance rating.

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Can you give me idea on what capacitors I should replace the original capacitors in my Sansui speaker sets?

It looks to me that you need to figure out a way to install an IEC connector and work with power cords first.

A "...palpable hit," Elk. Maybe DUP feels that quality control at Legacy is interested merely in cabinet grain matches, or torn woofer surrounds. But those do not comprise "quality control," in final listening tests. Do the speakers "sound" right? And why wouldn't they?

sasaudio,

My experience, as limited as it has been, seem to show that the increasing quality of capacitor in audio signal application parallel the article, and also that of Jung and Marsh, referred to elsewhere in this thread.

Specifically, I had oil-filled caps as part of a crossover network in a speaker system. I replaced those with mylar, and the sound cleaned up, not as shrill-sounding as before.

The same happened when my L-pads deteriorated. Replaced with new, higher power handling ones, the sound improved.

Replaced electrolytic, or bypassed those in the signal path with mylar and polystyrene caps. The sound character really changed for the better.

It's really difficult to quantify or measure, as I do not know what to measure that will correlate with what I heard as a difference. The oscilloscope did not reveal any visible difference in low-level noise pattern or voltage level, before or after the mods.

Great designers are always in the trial-and-error mode. And they are always music lovers. If they change caps and it sounds better, they shrug their shoulders, smile, and think the obvious -- "Hmmm. Must be the caps." And then they enjoy the better sound.

Would anyone want to buy from a designer who couldn't believe his own ears? How does any gear improve? Designers listen to the complaints, go back and listen again to their creations, and try to improve them.

The best aspect of Stereophile is JA's constant monitoring of the technical side of things. Nobody else seems to do this. JA is a musician and a music lover. He also parses the blips. I just love that. That's why I don't subscribe to The Absolute Bullshit anymore. The commentary is always unbalanced. And Harley is an outstanding technician. Go figure. When JA sees anomalies, concerning measurements and performance, he quietly notes them, questions the design, and moves on. No hysterics. No accusations. Just the facts, ma'am. He knows his writers, and he knows their preferences in music and playback equipment. And, when he runs into individual instances where the sound isn't corroborated by the measurements, he just scratches his head and says, "you decide."

Self-ordained de-mythologizers seem to always want to hide behind the veneer of "progress" and the desire to save us listeners from ourselves. Thank the Audio Gods that JA isn't infected with the same hang-ups.

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Great designers are always in the trial-and-error mode. And they are always music lovers. If they change caps and it sounds better, they shrug their shoulders, smile, and think the obvious -- "Hmmm. Must be the caps." And then they enjoy the better sound.

Would anyone want to buy from a designer who couldn't believe his own ears? How does any gear improve? Designers listen to the complaints, go back and listen again to their creations, and try to improve them.

That's kind of where I ended up with the capacitor mods. When it sounded better, I left it in. When cables didn't make a difference, I stayed with what I had, until I'm shown otherwise by someone else.

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Great designers are always in the trial-and-error mode. And they are always music lovers. If they change caps and it sounds better, they shrug their shoulders, smile, and think the obvious -- "Hmmm. Must be the caps." And then they enjoy the better sound.

No way. A great designer while being able to enjoy any improvement cannot help themself from wanting to know why.
Will this change work equally well in other applications and hundreds of other questions. It's the price a great designer pays. And we all benifit.

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Cool, collector items, they must be like 30 years old? I would change the 2 green caps in the top right corner, with a BETTER green, that lime green reminds me of a 1970 Road Runner, beep beep. Of course neither one of us have any idea where the caps are in the ckt and what they are doing without a schematic, unless you trace it out and draw a schematic, now get to work, but that never stops arbitrary upgrades to make it BETTER!!!!! Thse white 5 watt resistor looks like it needs to be replaced with a BETTER one....I can hear the spacious sounds from here.....

I've been looking for purple capacitors. I'm tired of the color green.

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It's not that i heard all these capaictors, it's that BASIC electrical concepts, knowledge, experience, and understanding, what capaictors are.

Sorry DUP, but you

Certainly, when you replace defective components, with functioning ones, things work properly, can't argue that. Pull out the data sheet on the caps you removed, and teh ones you installed, look how different they probably are, so you changed teh ckt parameters, what a concept!!!!!

Back to basics, logic, why would x-rays from one mfg be different x-rays from another,as long as it's the same wavelength, same kV, etc SPECS...Cu radiation is Cu radiation see, W is W, at teh same power settings, through the same optics of the same spec. How, just basic logic and knowledge can be a wonderful thing? Like 120V shock from a Leviton outlet is gonna be different than one from a Hubbell? GE X-rays are the same on a specific use machine as one from Siemens, Philips or Toshiba or Varian or anyone else. Just like......other things electrical , electronic. A GE refrigerator gets cold like a Whirlpool, the cold is not different 32 is 32. So a same spec'd cap from Mr. Magoos Capacitor farm is the same sound as the same specd' cap from Leroy's Capacitor Emportium and hip hop club. Same specs mean same function, the miracle of spces!!! Just like motor oil it has specs for a specific use....Capacitors are mfg'd products for a specific function within it's specs. Should I take my tv apart and swap caps will it improve teh picture, with random capacitor changes, why not?

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Back to basics, logic, why would x-rays from one mfg be different x-rays from another,as long as it's the same wavelength, same kV, etc SPECS...Cu radiation is Cu radiation see, W is W, at teh same power settings, through the same optics of the same spec. How, just basic logic and knowledge can be a wonderful thing? Like 120V shock from a Leviton outlet is gonna be different than one from a Hubbell? GE X-rays are the same on a specific use machine as one from Siemens, Philips or Toshiba or Varian or anyone else. Just like......other things electrical , electronic. A GE refrigerator gets cold like a Whirlpool, the cold is not different 32 is 32.......

Totally irrevelant. None of your examples need to deal with DA, DF etc in order to basically function, function properly.

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the cold is not different 32 is 32

When all you have is one requirement for your system, 32 is all you get. Add a freezer, a crisper, a meat tray and vegetable/fruit storage plus a butter tray and suddenly 32 is not just 32. The more you want your equipment to do, the more you look for when you shop. But, if you don't know those things exist, because in the case of music you've never heard them and you don't want to know they exist, then all you get is a lousy "32".

Then why do you think a single 5" midrange can do it all in your hi fi? can't...your vegetable drawer is full, it can't take anymore carrots, then you stuff some meat in there now you have a mixed up mess, like listening to a single driver trying to reproduce a full musical event. Perfect anlogy there Jan...you need a bigger meat and vegetable drawer!! Thanks, see, your inability to comprehend even on the simple things like why is my vegetable drawer full, and there is hamburger in there too, oh, I have a single drawer refrigerator from 1954. But even with more features and drawers 32 degrees is 32 degrees, now if you mention humidty, that's not measured in degrees, see, how you are all confused. 32 degrees in a Ge 32 in a Bosch....is...32degrees. Now how well it maintains and does it, not what I am talking bout, talking bout the thing is the same, like once it is at 32 it's the same as any other 32, at the same humidty...Does it matter what motor or compressor they used, or what motor CAP nope...it did teh saem function. Can you taste or feel the difference in 32 in a GE or 32 in a Whirlpool, nope. Jan, Mr. single drawers, single drivers, I bet you listen in MONO also, cus' it's like better?

When was your last live musical event anyway, or is it all a distant memory? cus I keep going back to that 5" driver, you ain't hearing music out of it, you are hearing a highly distorted out of FOCUS blur....and yet you hear a capacitor? How can that possibly be? and what capacitor did you change lately? You mean a new AC line cord ain't doing it for ya?

Hey DUP,
the machines you mentioned dont play music!

Basic electric ideas, concepts, mechanics etc, why is audio so far removed from anything else, when to reproduce it, you need electrical, mechanics, etc. Digital audio is data, get it? Why is digital audio converted to analog so much a mystery over digital data used for video in medical imagaing, where life or death is at play, but audio, now that's always somehting above and beyond...are you for real. Do you have any invovement in high speed data, electronics, industrial equipment, that needs to function 24/7 under some pretty losu condtions, like poor AC power, high and low temps...audio in the home is pretty basic stuff believe me. Time to understand teh basics, then all teh audio BS becomes much clear as to what it really is, BS. How a "better" capacitor sounds better, define "BETTER" capacitor. Sepcs, but no one beleives taht matters in audio, but in other extremely high end elctronics man it sure do, ....

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Then why do you think a single 5" midrange can do it all in your hi fi?

What's that got to do with capacitors? Nothing.

How many caps in my speakers? 0!

How many in your's. Too many.

When was the last time you heard anything in phase?

upd, you remind me of McCain's tire guage. Ignorant of the facts, jabbering lies, proud to remain ignorant of the facts and never going to get too close to the truth cause it would singe those simian hairs on your back side.

Aw, that's unfair to simians.

I-IV-V

Get back on capacitors, upd, or go away. You don't belong on a discussion forum.

Too many capacitors......now that's a line from someone who fully understands electronics and audio. Yet you don't understand that a single crossover less driver in a box, cannot reproduce the full range, dynamics, and every other thing involved in music....you keep believing it, you really need either a hearing test, or educating. There is no crossover in my clock radio, or BLOSE Wave Machine, that 3inch speaker is so lifelike....but not this life, one from about 1908. Sometimes it's good thing to be clueless, ya always happy, fala la la. Attend some live music events, go home and listen, if you think it's the same....wow. Wow, and double wow. When was teh last time you heard live music, why won't you answer teh question there Jan? come on.....cus it's impossible after you hear live music, of any kind, even some Jazz crap, that you can listen at home, and think that's how it sounded live......are you heavily medicated or something?

Does your car have too many wheels on it? Too many screws, nuts and bolts? Are your nuts and bolts too loose?

Better caps mean better sound, according to other people, so that would mean since you have ZERO.ZERO caps you can't have good sound? zero point zero !!! http://cgi.ebay.com/25-Capacitors-0-22-u...1742.m153.l1262

Poly is in teh house, house of better capacitors? But are metalized better sounding than non metalized? Let's just change em, and see what happens OK, but what specs? http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-12-Capacitors-3-...1742.m153.l1262

Read the article, upd. Get close to the truth. It won't hurt.

Much.

What basis in facts, or anything in electrical concepts and design, would a speaker crossover have "too many" caps? And what speakers are single driver tha outperform speakers that have multiple drivers with lotsa parts in teh crossover, that can play 105dB all day long and sound terrific? Your 5" wonder? Ever have it to 105dB, , what do you define as real anyway, you talk of all kinds of absctract nonsense. Define closer to teh music as in, how do capactiors have an influence, I really don't understand teh term "closer to the music".....that sounds like ad speak......is that where you learned it?

And yet another perfectly decent thread gets shouted down by DUP, replete with irrelevancies. <sigh>

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And yet another perfectly decent thread gets shouted down by DUP, replete with irrelevancies. <sigh>

Yep!

Brilliant, simply brilliant.

I-IV-V in Bb minor. Again.

Returning to this post is like the proverbial train wreck.
I know not to look but I can't help it.
Obviously all of us here are dead set on our beliefs and not open to differing thoughts.
Bottom line, capacitors are bad, non linear in both voltage and phase response.
Inductors are bad, non linear in both voltage and phase response.
Contrary to the "straight wire with gain" concept.
Can we now move on to aftermarket improved quality transformers? Special core materials, various gauge and material for the windings. HiTech dielectric materials and most importantly really cool colors.

From my enginerding POV, the Jung/Marsh article is a mixed bag. On the positive side, they do a bunch of distortion measurements on capacitors and you can look at their data and see that some capacitor types do indeed distort more than others. I believe they were the first to publish such data. OTOH, the text itself has plenty of good old audiophile bull puckey sprinkled in. They claim, for instance, that capacitor dielectric absorption "reduces dynamic range". Well, dynamic range is something you can measure, but they do not do so. It seems they are talking about imagined dynamic range. Once again, it's a case of the "because I said so" methodology at work. If it gets repeated often enough, it will become true! Ugh.

A better set of articles called "Capacitor Sounds?" was done by Cyril Bateman, in Electronics World magazine. The title is somewhat of a misnomer, as there is actually no discussion of subjective capacitor effects. But there are a lot of measurements of distortion, with spectrum analysis of the distorted current through the capacitor. Great stuff. Those articles can be downloaded from Cyril's site. The site's bandwidth is metered, so if it goes down for a while, you can wait about an hour and it will come back up again and you can continue downloading.

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Measured impedance by frequency of two quite different loudspeaker cabinets, clearly illustrates how speaker impedance at high frequency is nothing like the 8&#937;; we like to believe.
My horn loaded cabinets (Red line) peaked to 525&#937;; at 900kHz the ESP replica assembly (Blue line)measured 575&#937;; at 1.5MHz.
These frequencies are significant because they lie within the MW broadcast spectrum and both speakers act as aerials.
Signal pick up transfers back inside the amplifier feedback loop http://uk.geocities.com/cyrilb2@btinternet.com/cable_2.html

Holy crap! 575&#937;?! 1.5MHz!?

I'm glad the engineer in you found a site that better suits your requirements. The conclusions in that article still appear to support the "sound" of capacitors.

However, I'm not seeing any "good old audiophile bull puckey sprinkled in" the Jung/Marsh article. They state their findings and go on to say what they have found amounts to significant variations in sound quality when various capacitor types are used in various circuit types. Sound quality improves with capacitor types which measure better in their fairly limited group of tests. If that's too esoteric for you, you must really struggle through a Sam Tellig column. What exactly do you find to be "good old audiophile bull puckey sprinkled in" the Jung/Marsh articles?

If capacitors all sounded alike, they wouldn't have to match them.

This CAPS for you. Doesn't mention anything about audio in the simple specs, but notice issues temperature, voltage, conditions etc. Audio is not a spec, when they build electrical ckts ya get a cap to do a function, for frequencys, etc. Only in the world of ad BS does some capacitor have a sound....it does have an electrical parameter, which is used for selecting which stuff to use. Back to basics, and things start to make sense. http://www2.electronicproducts.com/Tanta...p2008.html.aspx

Notice teh chart doesn't have a column for "sound". It is electrical parameters and physical issues, that matter. http://www2.electronicproducts.com/SOURCE_GUIDE_Capacitors-article-sg_Capacitors_A_Aug2008-html.aspx

http://www.ascapacitor.com/new_products.htm Checkout the "audio" caps.....BLUE sound better, right? But I bet ya order em, in size, voltage,uF etc, to perform a specific function in the audio realm.

Matched for reliability issues, "burn in" to check reliability, find defects. http://www2.electronicproducts.com/Tanta...l2008-html.aspx

Nobody has yet mentioned Inductors? How do they sound, let's all be quiet and listen. Nothing yet, sshhhhhsssshhhh. Wait, they also have electrical parameters and specs, can't have none of that stuff to get in the way of hearing how they sound. Ya know pretty soon, if ya get enough of these electrical and electronic components together, ya have an electrical/electronic product.....now what are ya gonna do, all these different parts hooked together.....and it sounds like? I think the fuse holder is changing the sound, now where is that GOOD SOUNDING fuse holder?

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If capacitors all sounded alike, they wouldn't have to match them.

It's not a dating service.

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Nobody has yet mentioned Inductors? How do they sound, let's all be quiet and listen. Nothing yet, sshhhhhsssshhhh. Wait, they also have electrical parameters and specs, can't have none of that stuff to get in the way of hearing how they sound. Ya know pretty soon, if ya get enough of these electrical and electronic components together, ya have an electrical/electronic product.....now what are ya gonna do, all these different parts hooked together.....and it sounds like? I think the fuse holder is changing the sound, now where is that GOOD SOUNDING fuse holder?

I have pointed this out for years. There have been several papers documenting the gross saturation distortion in most iron core inductors. Yet many manufacturers continue to use them, even several top names. Hobbiests and moders hardly discuss inductors at all, probably because the value is not printed on most of them and therefore they're not easy to swap. Caps are easy, since they're marked, so they talk about them; in reality they're far more linear than inductors.
Keele often noted inductor saturation distortion in many speakers including the 801, I believe the NHT 3.3, and others. He would sometimes bypass the crossover and drive the woofer directly to confirm his findings.

Pete B.

I agree. There is no doubt capacitors have a sound. The over riding issue, which most theorists overlook, is that no part is perfect by any means.

The article by Karl Weber PHD chemistry
http://www.audience-av.com/capacitors/a_chemistview.php

describes the effects upon different dielectric materials on the molecular level.

Some manufacturers with one or many engineers, and with actual experience, who are concerned with the sound of capacitors.

Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, Mcintosh Labs, Vacuum Tube Logic, VAC, Atma-sphere, Dr. Edgar, Dr. Arthur Loesch. Dr. Loesch used a combination of capacitors to obtain the sound he wanted from his preamplifier.

They also neither chose the most expensive capacitor, nor the cheapest yet very reliable Solen capacitors. They chose what sounded the best in their designs.

All did extensive research, one or more companies before the capacitor rage really took hold.

Hope this helps.