Crescendo
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What? specifications don't matter anymore? All high end equipment cheap, because specs don't matter!
CECE
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the world of audio is filled with nonsense. If specs don't matter how on earth does anything get designed? The guy you spoke to is a nut!!! And it's almost consumer fraud to indicate one thing in advertising or web pictues and sell ya something else. We don't need no stinking specs, I say it's better, so it is....now run along and just leave your money, maybe pay him half the amount, since numbers don't matter. If you did get a used product and paid for new, you alos got ripped...but then in audio world, that's called conditioned, broken in, made to sound better. If he says teh cheaper cartridge "sounds" better...ask him why, what spec is different, it must have a differetn number somewhere, and how does THAT make it sound better, if he is a "designer"...sounds more like a sale con...

Crescendo
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It's nice to see someone else get's the picture. I was simply dismissed like a spoiled child. I have come to the same conclusions you did about price/specs/ego yada yada. The only problem is this company's table is rated "worldwide" as one of the best. Sooo, I guess I am just a spec of sand in the pile. A customer that doesn't matter. Just a spoiled child who actually pays attention to what is written and said. The company I bought it from made some effort in resolution (appreciated) howeve, the main problem still exists. As long as people "kiss" his proverbial table nothing will ever change. In the immortal world of Mel Brooks "it's good to be king."

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This calls for a return and refund.

This isn't a case of "specs don't matter," this is a case of having the product you bought switched and then given the run around by the company.

Ask for a refund, and then if he gives you trouble, post his name and product here.

gkc
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Crescendo, in spite of my Marine Corps background, and my combat experiences in Viet-Nam, I am essentially non-violent. But, there are exceptions.

No jury of your peers would convict you. The tricky part would be finding a jury of your peers. If I could be sure the right lawyer was available, concerning jury selection, I would recommend homicide. Hey. Some people deserve to die young.

So, this solution is iffy, at best, in spite of how much it agrees with my particular, er, aesthetic.

Just raise hell. Buddha is right. Name names. We are with you.

Crescendo
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This calls for a return and refund.

this is a case of having the product you bought switched and then given the run around by the company.

Ask for a refund, and then if he gives you trouble, post his name and product here.

Buddha, thanks for the sentiment and advice.

Actually, the "middle man", when questioned on it, offered to take it back, or some compensation. I replied, " I simply want the cartridge that is stated as being on there and reviewed." To make a long story short, I received a 50.00 credit for the cartridge snafu. This token, however, does not get the manufacturer off the hook. AFter many other queries most have updated the site to reflect the 2200 cartridge and the platter change out. The site I bought from (Large company) and his own website do not reflect these changes.

He's the one that showed his a$$. This is the first time that I can remember, in a long time, someone was actually more pompous, egotistical, self elevating than myself. Hey, maybe I am just jealous of that? 5-10 more years of experience may get me there!!! Oh well, hope others know their tables very well and can figure out who I am talking about so they can at least be prepared. Thanks again Buddha.

Crescendo
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Crescendo, in spite of my Marine Corps background, and my combat experiences in Viet-Nam, I am essentially non-violent. But, there are exceptions.

Thanks Clifton! I try to be non-violent myself ( you have seen your share) and yes there are exceptions.


Quote:

No jury of your peers would convict you. The tricky part would be finding a jury of your peers.

Isn't THAT the truth. That's a whooole other arena that would take us to a galaxy far, far away.... (not to mention the moderator would close the thread)


Quote:

If I could be sure the right lawyer was available, concerning jury selection, I would recommend homicide. Hey. Some people deserve to die young.

Well, the simple interrogation techniques are working! He's an older gentleman (ooops) I gave something else away..


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So, this solution is iffy, at best, in spite of how much it agrees with my particular, er, aesthetic.

Just raise hell. Buddha is right. Name names. We are with you.

If necessary, and during general conversations with others it WILL be stated. I am simply trying not to bash comapny's reputations in general. Their designers, however, are a complete different story. Neither libel, nor slander could ever be charged...Hell it's the truth! He's an a$$!

Thanks clifton..
(locked and loaded here)

ethanwiner
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Quote:
maybe pay him half the amount, since numbers don't matter.


Crescendo
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Quote:

Quote:
maybe pay him half the amount, since numbers don't matter.

Ha! That's rich, I love it Ethan. I should have thought of that. I am sure there would have been a rhetorical bantering that would have ensued. I would not have been allowed to have the last word.....or even one for that matter.

Some of the bantering might have been along the lines of:

You can't put a price on beauty......
Or a hertz is worth a thousand dollars.....
Why do you care about channel separation? Aren't you listening to mono....
Frequency response is for sissy's
You can't hear linearity......
let's see......is +/- 3db double the power? Or half the power?
Or we've decided to offer you a (name removed) amplifier in place of the advertised Kr___ for the same price. I'm sure you won't notice. It sounds better. and the price is the same.

Oh well, I feel better. Thanks men!

absolutepitch
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Specs do matter, as long as the measurements are correctly done and honestly published, and the relevance to what matters (sound) is there.

No one would want a speaker that widely varies in frequency response. Same for any component in the chain, such as electronics, turntables, cartridges, tape players, DVD, CD, SACD, etc. So frequency response is a indicator that at least that part of the equipment measures well. Then comes the other "usual" measurements/specs of distortion, linearity, and so forth. When the designed equipment measures well, sound should not be made worse because of such design effort to hit better specs. Then comes the moment of truth when you listen to the equipment and judge whether the sound is as good as the specs imply it should be.

Some years ago, I heard/read a story about the late Richard Heyser who created a device that measures superbly on the standard tests performed at that time, but sounded terrible when music is played through it. Are specs important? Yes, definitely, but only to a certain point.

CECE
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Maybe Richard Heyser ain't really dead, are you sure they did the measurements correctly? When they read no heartbeats, are you sure it was on a calibrated meter, man, it would suck being buried alive cus' of poor measurements. Measurements always matter., ask teh pilot when he's landing if it's 100 feet or 10 feet from teh ground if it matters!

tom collins
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i am late coming into this conversation, however. i wanted to be clear on what happened with you.
from what you said, it looks like you bought a brand-name fully equipped turntable rig already set up to play. it also sounds like you bought it through one of the internet retailers and not "factory direct". i will assume this is the case. it also sounds like you spoke to the manufacturer as well as the seller looking for satisfaction. incidently, there is a reason they keep those engineers locked away from the public and it sounds like you found out the hard way when you tried to have a dialog with him. at any rate, someone at the manufacturer is responsible for marketing, including selling it to the store you bought it from. it seems to me that you might have some satisfaction if you sought out that person at the manufacturer's business and explained the "bait and switch" that you suffered with the retailer. the manufacturer sales person (not the engineer) will probably take this smirch on their reputation seriously and have a discussion with the person who sold it to you. also, if you paid for a brand new one and this one was a return, you have a right to what you paid for.
part of the purpose of the above was advice to you if you still want to do one other thing that might or might not make a difference for either you or the next person, the other reason is for anyone else who might find themselves in a similar situation.
the law is still the same even if the transaction is on line. you are just relying more on the dealer's concern for his repuation to protect you than you are having the dealer in your neighborhood.
best of luck to you.

tom

Crescendo
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Specs do matter, as long as the measurements are correctly done and honestly published, and the relevance to what matters (sound) is there.

I agree, and almost ALL manufacturers will publish frequency response and channel separation. Especially for a cartridge. Yes, as far as I know these specs do matter (of course, only if you have the hearing to support it). Simply put, if these specs don't matter (let's say an inexpensive Audo Technica cart. vs. a High end Grado) then don't publish them and charge roughly the same. Sounds better is PURELY without a doubt SUBJECTIVE. Period. You may find several people in a group that agree, however, it's still subjective.

My turntable price was greatly influenced in cost by the tone arm and cartridge (like most). I simply feel that a "designer" selling me a turntable with a lesser cartridge than what is advertised, is probably done simply to offset what I feel were differences in production costs. I feel this approach is wrong. Just be honest and say "hey it costs more" we had to sacrifice something. Or it costs more, we're raising out prices. I don't need B.S. We all are intellegent enough to make those decisions.

Judging by what I have read (by this magazine as well) you will have a hard time finding a better turntable than the one I purchased at even a 500.00-1000.00 more price tag. If all the "professional reviews" are accurate.


Quote:

Some years ago, I heard/read a story about the late Richard Heyser who created a device that measures superbly on the standard tests performed at that time, but sounded terrible when music is played through it. Are specs important? Yes, definitely, but only to a certain point.

I agree. However, frequency response, and channel separation are. I think all of these magazines and professionals that reviewed this table with thr "advertised" cartridge, review it again with the "lesser" and see if they agree with the designer. I am sure they would be honest about it. If it simply doesn't "sound better", put the old one back on, lower the price or concede that specs "do matter".

Thanks for the feedback. I need all I can get

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i am late coming into this conversation, however. i wanted to be clear on what happened with you.
from what you said, it looks like you bought a brand-name fully equipped turntable rig already set up to play.

Hi Tom

Not named brand perse, as in Denon etc or Technics. The arm and cartridge were mounted. I simply had to instrall the counter weight, set that up, install the anti-skating, mount the belt and platter and so on.


Quote:

it also sounds like you bought it through one of the internet retailers and not "factory direct". i will assume this is the case.

Not a retailer like Best Buy or someone like that. A store that I trust in the New York area. I usually don't buy "Factory Direct" unless they are an internet only site. Only a few of those I know of like "Outlaw Audio" etc.


Quote:

it also sounds like you spoke to the manufacturer as well as the seller looking for satisfaction.

I spoke with the manufacturer first, to give them/he the opportunity to answer my questions. I was not immediately seeking "restitution". I was simply looking for an explaination to why his site and the company I bought it from differed so in the description of his product. I was also wondering if the "cartridge" was supposed to be on there or was it was a "mistake". It looked as though it might have been returned. I have seen retailers do this sort of thing. Not factory. Hence, I was giving him the first opportunity. I think he was offended as soon as I queried him though and he was not interested in ANYTHING I had to say.


Quote:

Incidently, there is a reason they keep those engineers locked away from the public and it sounds like you found out the hard way when you tried to have a dialog with him.

A lot of truth there! I work in a technical field and have little trouble conversing with engineers (most). This particular one was simply self absorbed and over the top.

At any rate, someone at the manufacturer is responsible for marketing, including selling it to the store you bought it from. it seems to me that you might have some satisfaction if you sought out that person at the manufacturer's business and explained the "bait and switch" that you suffered with the retailer.

The bait and switch was performed at the factory, not the retailer. The "retailer" in New York satisfied the cost difference. The manufacturer will have to correct "their" web pages and then have the responsibility for advising his retailers and middle men all the way down to the high end listening rooms. Some high ends are still selling the table with the higher end cartridge and the "higher end platter" .


Quote:

the manufacturer sales person (not the engineer) will probably take this smirch on their reputation seriously and have a discussion with the person who sold it to you.

Again, I was speaking to the main man. The proverbial "buck stops here" man. He is responsible. HIS OWN WEBSITE is mis representing his product (as of 8/4/2008). The retailer/re-seller only sells what the maunfacturer hypes and gives them. The retailer's page is almost verbatum from the manufacturers website.


Quote:

also, if you paid for a brand new one and this one was a return, you have a right to what you paid for.
part of the purpose of the above was advice to you if you still want to do one other thing that might or might not make a difference for either you or the next person, the other reason is for anyone else who might find themselves in a similar situation.

The designer/maunfacturer/owner...head honcho reports "that's the way we ship them out".


Quote:

the law is still the same even if the transaction is on line. you are just relying more on the dealer's concern for his repuation to protect you than you are having the dealer in your neighborhood.
best of luck to you.

Thanks Tom, it's been resolved (a 50.00 refund) for the difference in cartridge. That was acceptable. The only unacceptable aspect of this situation is this gentlemen's lack of tact, courtesy and professioanlism. Even with me bringing it to his attention, he hasn't changed a thing. This man has a "huge" reputation as does his product. Now I know why. His reputation must be DIRECTLY proportional to his EGO.

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So do we get to learn which turntable is being discussed ?

Like many others on the forum im looking at the moment, its obvious these guys are to be avoided.

Alan

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So do we get to learn which turntable is being discussed ?

Hi! As I mentioned earlier, I really don't want to bash a company's solid reputation based soley on what I perceive is a "personal" experience. I can however, respond to you if you PM me. I would be more than happy to tell you.


Quote:

Like many others on the forum im looking at the moment, its obvious these guys are to be avoided.

Welsh hifi (funny, the guy sounded Welsh)

I personally wouldn't discourage you from buying this piece of equipment. I kept mine based on the MANY positive reviews thus far regarding this company's products. I can find NOTHING tarnishing their history. So when a customer has a very CRAPPY experience, one feels complelled to share this experience with other prospective customers. I for one see "many" hints within these dialogs which should give it away, yet noone has stated it. Again, I will PM you if you wish. It is a very well built table and I hope provides me MANY hours of enjoyment. I will however, always feel that the customer service I received when simply asking question was completely unacceptable. For that, the owner/designer/ head honcho needs to take a moment a reflect on his attitude and the importance of his cutsomer base.

Thanks

Alan

JIMV
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Its called 'bait and switch' and is illegal almost everywhere.

tom collins
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thanks for the reply. glad you like the table. many brilliant people are not good business people. some survive simply because the product is so good. some do not. i had a similar experience (it wasn't what they said, but how they said it) recently when attempting to trade one of my motorcycles. i bought a different brand. the difference is that unfortunately, the motorcycle company will still sell around 300,000 copies this year even without my business. a boutique hi end TT maker probably does not have the same luxury. on the other hand, i know a number of quirky folks in this hobby.

tom

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on the other hand, i know a number of quirky folks in this hobby.

tom

Amen Tom.....I am quickly becoming one of them!

I have always loved audio and well designed equipment. Unfortunately I couldn't always afford it (still)! For me to spend almost a 1000.00 on a lower middle class turntable (I thought was insane). I have NEVER done that before. We'll see if it was worth it. I probably would have been very happy with a entry level pro-ject turntable. I hear some very nice things about them. In fact, they're so good that the table I bought shares some of the same components. Go figure. Oh well the "deed is done" and I will try my best to enjoy the sound of the table, because the specs simply don't matter.

Have a great one...

Crescendo
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Its called 'bait and switch' and is illegal almost everywhere.

JimV. I agree. I felt it was unacceptable. Just as I would if I were buying anything else retail. The fact that the company I bought it from was very understanding and offered either to provide me an RMA or provide some cash difference showed they wanted no part of this.I wish the manufacturer would have been this gracious.

Thanks

mrlowry
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Now I think I know who the "manufacturer" is and he is a world class ass. File it away for next time but the people at Sumiko (Project's importer) are wonderful people that are truly passionate about analog. They have some nice cartridges (the Blue Point #2 being a personal favorite), nice 'tables (Project and SME), and lots of other great brands.

SAS Audio
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Quote:

Quote:
Its called 'bait and switch' and is illegal almost everywhere.

JimV. I agree. I felt it was unacceptable. Just as I would if I were buying anything else retail. The fact that the company I bought it from was very understanding and offered either to provide me an RMA or provide some cash difference showed they wanted no part of this.I wish the manufacturer would have been this gracious.

Thanks

Amen. Glad to at least see the company was willing to try to make good. Happy listening.

Steve

Crescendo
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Now I think I know who the "manufacturer" is and he is a world class ass.

MrLowry, I couldn't have said it better myself. World class! Thanks. I ALMOST went with the Pro-ject and Sumiko. I don't think I will ever regret the table, only the experience.


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File it away for next time but the people at Sumiko (Project's importer) are wonderful people that are truly passionate about analog.

Filed and indexed!!!

See you....

Crescendo
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Amen. Glad to at least see the company was willing to try to make good. Happy listening.

Sasaudio, the retailer made it right (I will continue to give them business) however the manufacturer didn't want to hear my story. That bothers me tremendously. He might be part of the reason as to why high end audio owners are such a small percentage of folks...

Thanks for reading..

Steve

Crescendo
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You know.....it's funny that the manufacturer STILL has not changed his site to reflect the change of cartridge. I can't imagine that. Oh well, so much for the simple things in life.

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