Alex, you have me at a disadvantage. You have met DUP (is it Carl? I seem to recall that from JA's description of his visit...), and I haven't. All I have to go on is his abominable forum persona.

And, it is abominable. Overbearing, obsessed with being right, and determined to shoot down all the aspects of assembling a system that many of us find important. But wait, as the man selling Sham-Wows says, "There's more!" Not only does he have to be right, the rest of us have to be deluded and stupid. That's the important point. There are no gentlemen's disagreements with DUP. You either hear as he does, or you are deluded. And that is always the last straw. Especially when it comes from an illiterate lout who can't even spell "the" or write in complete sentences.

Now, I cannot argue with you about Carl. Nor will I. But DUP is a pluperfect asshole. You may wish to infer higher sonic truths from his babblings, and you may, indeed, find them when visiting Carl in his digs. But such interpretive aurae do not glimmer in the writings of DUP. You might as well look for hidden transcendence in the poetry of Ferlinghetti. It just isn't there.

I have no quarrels with Carl, whoever he is. But I have plenty with the belligerent Mr. DUP.

Finally, I do not say all these things "as a matter of course," whatever that means. I have earned the right to insult from being insulted. As have about 90% of the folks who regularly respond to this forum.

Clifton,

Whereas you have a point, the reason I met Carl is because I didn't find DUP all that disagreeable. All the things you say are true IF you take him literally. I tend to tune out the noise and try to understand the core of what he's trying to say. I don't think anyone communicates efficiently or accurately. However, I think that if you take the time to listen to what DUP is saying, rather than the way he says it, you'll see that he makes many valid points even though you may not agree with them all.

The dude is not stupid, he's not arrogant or belligerent. He is somewhat emotional about his views and he doesn't communicate effectively, so it requires the listener to invest more time and effort to get the point. I think it's time and effort well worth it.

Cliffy, you have such a way with wurds, some way over my dildo head. What is pluperfect? that almost sounds like Something ya eat with SauerKraut! Who is Ferlinghetti? Poetry ain't nutin' I'm into. and what's wrong with wanting and usually being RIGHT? Is it better to be wrong more often than being right more often. I'd rather be wrong less often, and right more often.
An illiterate is one who cannot read, not one who has typo's.

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...if you take the time to listen to what DUP is saying, rather than the way he says it, you'll see that he makes many valid points...

I always enjoy your dry, sarcastic wit when you are completely and absolutely kidding. Subtle, but I appreciate it.

Moosie, I think you've been listening to Bob Dylan a bit too long. You're starting to read into things. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

And sometimes a cigar is just a lot of bad smoke that makes everything around it stink.

You just had to crash the party, didn't you?

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Moosie, I think you've been listening to Bob Dylan a bit too long. You're starting to read into things.

This coming from the guy that can't tell an elk from a moose!

Do you see palmate antlers?!

Of course not.

Cervine Antlers Rule!

A moose by any other name is still the same.

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You just had to crash the party, didn't you?

You're starting to read too much into a simple sentence. Take a break, Alex. Nobody is impressed by what you're posting anyway.

Are you a national spokesman now? Who died and made you Queen?

What does that mean, Alex? What is your problem? You have no point. You haven't had a point for quite some time now. You can't even make a reasonable insult with out finding one on line. Did you get that one at a good discount, Alex? I hope you didn't pay some financial leech too much since the money is going to his community. Not that you give a rat's butt.

You tell Elk he's reading too much into a post but I can't say the same to you? What's the matter, Alex, getting a bit touchy cause no one agrees with you?

Then why don't you just back off? This back and forth insults is getting boring on my end. I don't much care for how you approach this hobby and you don't like someone with a moral anchor at all. So? Are you going to insult me forever? If so, I'll just insult you back. Is that what you want?

Your choice, Alex. Grow up or keep getting insulted.

Man, that Scott Fogelsong is a real trouble maker.

First of all, it doesn't matter if anyone agrees with me or not. We exchange ideas, and I state mine. You were the one who went off on me. Now, you're got your panties in a bunch once again over something or other.

This particular thread had nothing to do with you. You weren't even involved in it, but you had to stick your nose in it, go off on me with one of your rabid rants and now you're bitching that the poor little you is being insulted.

I'm perfectly willing to let it go. All you got to do is STFU.

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but you had to stick your nose in it

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First of all, it doesn't matter if anyone agrees with me or not. We exchange ideas, and I state mine.

DING-DING-DING-DING-DING

Another contradiction!!! Way to go, Alex!

You don't pay attention to what you post, do you?

Hey, Alex, you STFU!

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Man, that Scott Fogelsong is a real trouble maker.

And doing it from the grave is a neat trick, too. I sure liked Leader Of The Band and Run For The Roses, though.

Shh!

Whoa, Alex. Didn't you just write that the reader of DUP has to "invest more time" in his turgid prose to get the "true" meaning? Now, when Elk does just that, he's guilty of overreading, of making the "cigar more than a cigar."

Look. There is no defending DUP's written persona. He is insulting and rude. I have, on occasion, repaid him in kind. I am not Jesus.

When is the last time you ever heard DUP concede that somebody else's system was on a sonic realism level similar to his? When is the last time you ever heard DUP compliment the tube/low-power/efficient-speaker approach to musical enjoyment? When is the last time you heard DUP reply to another poster that HIS Legacy/Van Alstine system wasn't necessarily the best for everyone, even though he enjoys it? When is the last time that you heard DUP admit that not even HE can measure everything that is in need of measuring? When is the last time you heard DUP say that people who claim to be able to hear musical differences among different types of cables may or may not be right?

Never. That's when. Never. If it is not completely in agreement with DUP's personal listening prejudices, then it is not only sonic crap, it is also a reflection of the owner's stupidity.

You all know how enthusiastic I am about Triangle speakers. Find one example of my saying everyone ought to own them. You all know how enthusiastic I was with Blackie Pagano's mods of my 50-watt tube monoblocks. Find one case of my trying to even remotely suggest that everyone ought to own them.

DUP cannot discuss. He can merely deny and dictate. And it is all because he is a poor illiterate slob. Yeah, right. This guy is manipulative and abusive because he enjoys that persona.

Look. I'll invest extra time and effort into understanding the criticism of Northrop Frye or Jacques Derrida, or the poetry of Shakespeare or Yeats. DUP isn't worth it.

Alex, I am sure you are a helluva guy and it would be great to down a few with you at the local slop-shoot. And, you are a loyal friend, when you decide to be friends. I admire that. But DUP's behavior on this site is inexcusable, consistently, and there is NO defending it on any reasonable grounds. He isn't worth the effort, other than to call him out and ridicule him. There is no excusable core, somehow, behind his insults.

Sorry. That's just the way it is. You MUST understand that he adopts this vacant persona precisely for the purpose of getting away with insult after insult.

Carl may be a Prince. DUP is an asshole, if ever that term applied to anyone.

Yep! And double yep!

Not to mention he does not belong on a discussion forum.

Hey, Buddha -- Scott did have the temerity to opine that wires don't matter, didn't he? Them's fightin' words!

Just kidding. Scott walked past a pool of gasoline and unwittingly tossed a spark into it, thinking it was probably water.

I find his prose a bit affected, but, hell, that's what Hemingway thought about Fitzgerald. No harm in that. I am sure many feel put off by the way I write.

As long as he doesn't complain about soundstage height without trying a few cables that just might be able to ameliorate that shortcoming...

His speakers are among my all-time favorites. In many ways the 805's are better, in an appropriate room size, than the 801's. Plus, you don't need DUP-sized amps to drive 'em.

Shit. I miss Scott already. Sniffle. Tell him to please come back. I promise to entertain him by insulting DUP more creatively...

I wonder if "Fogelsong" is a varient of "Vogelsong," or "bird-song." Gee. I wish my parents had been thus yclept. After all, birds sing better than any damned stereos do...

Happy tunes.

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This may get various reactions, but it's a humor-tinged essay on the idea of sort-of audiophiles, i.e., people such as myself, while taking some well-aimed potshots at the extremists. (Heck, I'm even a Stereophile subscriber!)

Aside from his heresy about tubes, I can relate. I have a TV system of mostly mass market gear around an Onyko receiver but I use cables that are better than come with the gear and I do have a turntable and phono amp hooked up. Oh, the speakers are very basic Maggi's.

My real system is built around a tubed PrimaLuna amp, has a old ADCOM CD player, old Energy speakers, $200 wire bought used, and a Monster cable power filter. Total value new under $5K but sounds pretty good to me. I also bought two tweaks, vibrapod isolation thingies and an Audioline quiet filter that do, as near as I can tell on my system, absolutely nothing that can be heard. The Vibrapods will move to the turntable. I'm still playing with the filter...

In short, my madness with tweaks is kept in check by only buying inexpensive toys.

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Most of the time, pricier AC cables have improved the sound in my systems. I just hate that, when more money actually means higher quality. Sigh. But only up to what I will (somewhat arbitrarily) define as the $250-$500 level. I have listened to $2000 AC cables that sound worse than my $250 Synergistic Research models (now, at least 8 years old...).

The biggest improvement I ever made to my stereo was to install a dedicated 20 amp line in my old house. Does anyone have an opinion/experience with the PS audio powerstation???

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The biggest improvement I ever made to my stereo was to install a dedicated 20 amp line in my old house. Does anyone have an opinion/experience with the PS audio powerstation???

I had a Power Plant Premier in my system for a month recently. The drop in the noise floor was unbelievable. The recording that sticks most in my mind was Paul McCartney's "Unplugged." The tonal shifts in his voice as he would move his head to talk to either the audience or the band were always audible, however with the Power Plant Premier the changes were astounding. Sound staging depth was also dramatically increased throughout the album. One detail that I had never noticed before nor have I heard since was the sound of McCartney shifting his feet between songs. Micro dynamics also became much more evident.

Thanks, I hope others can also respond as it is a very expensive thing and I am not a wealthy soul.

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A moose by any other name is still the same.

Bullwinkle once said that to Natasha.

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Thanks, I hope others can also respond as it is a very expensive thing and I am not a wealthy soul.

I, too, have a Power Plant Premier and am very pleased with it. The PPP replaces a P500.

I believe that the efficacy of all power mods/additions depends on the power that is coming into your listening room and on what else is on in your house/apartment.

My experience was that at first I thought is just made a nice improvement. However, I tried removing it and then really noticed the difference. The protection from bad power is an added bonus, as is the delayed power on feature.

It is a tweak however. I would first put money into a better preamp or amp, etc. before fussing with the PPP or any other power tweak.

PS Audio has a great return policy. When you are ready to give it a try order one and test it out.

Clifton,

I think that not unlike the Kaiser, DUP is simply misunderstood.

Jan,

People living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Maybe I can find a deal, used or factory refurb...

Elk, I am glad you posted this. In my apartment system (I cannot go for the dedicated line solution...), I have used the Cinemax balanced power conditioner. It has always been a LOT better than anything out of the wall, straight. But, I have been pondering a Power Plant Premier for some time now, since everything still sounds better at 11 PM than it did at 4 PM. And, better yet, at 2 AM. It is not just the booze. I am sure that helps, but I actually suffered through a sober evening-to-morning stint, just to make sure I wasn't listening in technicolor (like Wallace Stevens' sailor, I have dreams in Red Weather...).

So, I'm off to purchase a PPP. On your recommendation.

Just kidding. This decision has been simmering for awhile, and, as technology advances, I, too, must advance. Whatever.

JIMV, when I put in my dedicated line in my mountain house, I couldn't believe the change for the better. I already had a great system, and I was happy with it. But the dedicated line removed another veil or two. And that is what we all seek.

I am happy with both systems. But, progress beckons. So I chuck for the PPP tomorrow. But, damn! -- the Cinemax was awfully good over the last ten years ... AWFULLY good. The PPP is gonna have to scale the heights, but I suspect she will.

I have heard stuff that sounds great. Other than the superb Legacy/AVA combo There I admit it. It wasn't a 50W tube amplifier that's for sure. Not for reproducing full range, dynamic, realistic music. Creating it, yup, not reproducing the entire band. Drive a 48HP old VW beetle, then drive a new modern 2.0T one, you'll understand.

"Clifton, you say these things about DUP as a matter of course, but I have not found this to be the case with DUP at all. I have my disagreements with DUP. I told him that I thought that cables mattered, I told him that I didn't think his Van Alstine DAC was all that. Yet, I find him to be cordial and quite agreeable. I don't think he's wrong across the board, just as I don't agree with everything that he says across the board. He has many valid points and he exaggerates some as well. Yet, I haven't found him to be this Lochness Monster you make him out to be.

If you find yourself being drawn into stupidity, keep in mind that it takes two to tango. "

I'm sort with Alex on this one too. I rarely get into anything resembling a "fight" with DUP. A spirited or humorous disagreement, some chiding, some cage rattling maybe, but I don't seek out to insult him and tell him (or anyone) they are a fool, dildo-head, etc. etc. Clifton, Jan and few others make it their business to take off the gloves and get down in the dirt as soon as possible with him.

For Jan to say he is in any way "still giving DUP the benefit of the doubt" (in so many words) is just ridiculous. If he ever did, he sure doesn't now (nor does he with Alex or Ethan). I happen to disagree with DUP on many issues, sometimes saying so, but if you look through the various threads you'll see very little, if any direct animosity between us. We both took the exact opposite stance on that Elvis Costello album but we didn't go for 56 (or 560) posts about how stupid and deaf, or dishonest, the other one was, did we?

He may make a lot of noise, but contrary to what you are saying Clifton, he doesn't go looking for fights on his own so much as attract others who are. Like almost all situations in life, lightening up can save a lot of wasted time and energy! And don't say you're just "having fun" with him- I think we all know the difference between fun and axe-grinding or insulting.

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For Jan to say he is in any way "still giving DUP the benefit of the doubt" (in so many words) is just ridiculous. If he ever did, he sure doesn't now (nor does he with Alex or Ethan).

I won't try to read your mind as you have done with my intentions. And I won't judge without sufficient knowledge.

I see Stephen has moved my response to Alex to the Dead Zone. IMO, that's too bad and it's hypocritical of a moderator who espouses free speech to the point where anything goes, even to the point where personal attacks of all sorts are allowed to remain on the forum. Even such wonderful threads as "Let's all gang up on Jan" which are allowed to run for five or more pages with only purely personal attacks against one individual and with no intervention by the moderator. (A thread which was instigated after upd's second banishment - which was the result of a blantantly personal attack by upd directed solely toward me and for which I was subsequently "blamed" by a small group of four udp sychophants for causing udp's banishment as if I had control over udp. This was their intelligent and adult response to Stephen's actions - an attack on me.) It is an interesting turn of events when one individual can repeatedly slander another in a public forum without intervention by the moderator. These are interesting events when personal attacks I predicted were going to occur are triggered because my message was ignored.

Nonetheless, my sixth entreaty to Alex to stop the insults and spelling out the consequences of further insults gets sent to the Dead Zone while the insult remains.

Brilliant!

If anyone finds upd pleasant, informative or worth engaging on a, what was it, Alex, "deeper level", that's their own business. To suggest you know my motives when I do so is absurd. For the information of anyone who cares, it wasn't that long ago that udp was capable of carrying on a discussion. upd and I have even had "humorous" exchanges in the past and, on the rare ocassion, agreed over minor topics. Though they have mostly been raucous and filled with upd-isms, I had such a dicussion with him not that long ago that resulted in the "Elliott Incident" - a mortifying embarrassment to anyone with any sensitivity, though not to udp. You can believe me or not when I say I hold out hope - I don't care what psychic messages you receive either way. Unfortunately, there is, judging from this last encounter and the personal attacks udp has dished out and which have remained on the forum, no longer any hope upd and I can communicate. I've tried to avoid him since his return from his second banishment - gee, how many other people have been banished from the forum ... twice! - as I promised Stephen and John I would and that's the best route to take. That does not mean I will ignore upd. He's a member of the forum and, as Alex says, "We exchange ideas, and I state mine." Is there a disagreement with that statement?

Now as to how I "treat" Alex. Alex and I have not had a good relationship ever since our first go'round with dealer pricing. Same old shit as this time. Alex calls dealers leeches and other foul denizens of the parasitic world. I happen to disagree since I was very proud of my profession and the twenty five years I spent within that career. As a matter of fact, I very strongly disagreed with Alex who, as with this discussion, continued to state the same thing over and over despite anyone (other than upd) supporting his position then or now. Alex was so adamant about his position and so aggressive in his responses toward me one member on another thread told him to get over his "hard on" for me. Now, you get to draw your own conclusions about how Alex and I get along but I will point out he was one of those four members who felt it appropriate to gang up on me when upd was banned the second time and took to the thread with a particular sort of glee.

And, no, I didn't send Alex an invite to my last party.

I would invite you to visit the Dead Zone for a sampling of udp's favorites which are numerous there, including the responses (personal attacks directed bluntly towards me) which resulted in both his first and second banishments. For which I was "blamed" both times by the same group of cheerful members. However, Stephen has cleared that field. Pity, it was worth the read if you need any clarification about the relationship between udp and myself. Though I take it you don't, you know my intentions and that's all that matters.

As to Ethan, you are more than welcome to wade through the pages of the room treatment thread which got he and I involved in a shouting match. If you do so, look for the post where Ethan declared anyone who disagreed with him a complete fool because he is a know it all - in fact, if I remember his words, he restated his knowledge as, "Hell, I do know everything." There were a few sides drawn during that and the "perception" thread with May Belt (whom upd personally insulted) being the only real voice of reason. I was not the only one on those threads who found Ethan to be less than ... "personable". So I will continue to view Ethan with as much distrust as he does with me and, as you can see on the Blue Oasis thread, he and I shall get along when we get along.

And that's how I've been since day one on this forum. You get along with me and I get along with you. You thrown a brick at me for the hundreth time and you won't end up on my "people to be nice to" list. I would guess the same basic rule applies with Clifton but I'm not going to try to read his mind beyond what's on the page. This is hardly a forum of friends. You get to figure out for yourself why that is. But it's a fact. It's been discussed and dicsussed. Most of the people who discussed it last time are no longer on the forum. Alex wants me banned and still has his hard on for me - you should see a doctor for any hard on lasting longer than four months. Nobody wants to discuss anything as much as they want to get their leg up higher on somebody else.

We've been here before. And we'll be here again until something changes. This is the most discussed topic on the Stereophile forum. I have my opinions why that is. And seeing my post to Alex advising him to stop the insults sent to the Dead Zone is at the base of them.

So you can "sort of be with Alex" on this one if you like. I guess you ignored it when Alex called me a dick. (Well, actually, he bought a vowel. He couldn't come up with, "You dick", on his own.) You say you "know the difference between fun and axe-grinding or insulting." OK. But, if I were you, I wouldn't turn my back on anyone on this forum.

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And, no, I didn't send Alex an invite to my last party.

Dude, you had a party?

"OK. But, if I were you, I wouldn't turn my back on anyone on this forum. "

First off, I've met a number of guys from the forum, including Alex, and I WOULD invite them to my party. I don't need to worry about turning my back on anyone because I don't continuously look for trouble. There was a time I sort of thought maybe you were geting a bad deal, but since then I've realized you go out of your way looking to fight and be in conflict. Yeah, a few guys acted like children in response- but seriously, you DO look for it. Stepehen's FAR more tolerant of the forum kindergarten antics than I'd ever be. And yet you think he's giving you a bad deal or something?

I've often seen you take a very agrressive tone to a first time poster even. You have become paranoid, seeing trouble or trolls around very corner.

You also take too many words up to make your points. Brevity, like other virtues, speaks far more clearly than volumes of histronics. In that aspect you and DUP and perfectly suited for each other: VOLUME!

And that's all I'm going to say on that matter. 10 to 1 I get more than a 1000 words in response! And yet, I will let it go. Yeah, you can really do that.

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You also take too many words up to make your points.

Somebody else with a short attention span. That is what you meant, isn't it?

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And yet, I will let it go. Yeah, you can really do that.

Then why didn't you? You had to announce you would let me have the last word? Geeeeee!

What was that line about taking two to tangle?

I still can't believe you had a party!

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Dude, you had a party?

Yep! I celebrated you not being here. yourself!

Now, I'm hurt. After all we've been through?

"I'm sort of with Alex on this one, too..."

Dbowker, I'm not running for office. I have no interest in who lines up where, when it concerns taking sides. The forum is supposed to encourage open commentary concerning matters pertaining to music and the re-creation of it in the home. With Stephen running things, it does just that.

However.

When insulted, I will throw down with the insulter. You have made the common error of confusing the writing persona with the writer behind the mask. I meant what I said, and anyone who is running for office can take his/her own poll, but considerable patience will be required, since DUP has more than 1300 posts (last I checked).

I will repeat what I wrote to Alex. Carl may be a prince. I'll never know. DUP is an abusive lout who has to be "right" in an arena where there is no "right."

I refer you to his last post. He has heard systems other than his that he likes. There. Must have been like shitting thumbtacks to get that one out. But, then, never with a 40-watt tube amp (or thereabouts). With one clause, he negates the reasonable admission.

Yeah. I'm the one with the 40-watt tube amps. Which means that I am the idiot.

Only psychopaths issue apologetic statements thusly.

Alex accuses me of being "...drawn into stupidity." I plead guilty. DUP is the epitome of stupidity. Unintentionally, I am sure, Alex agrees with me on this crucial point.

I don't give a friar's fuck whether you "...rarely get into anything resembling a 'fight' with DUP."

And, yes, he DOES "...go looking for fights on his own." And, as long as he continues his belligerence, I shall continue to oblige. And, no, I am not among your vague "...others who are..." looking for fights. Check out my responses to "others." Jan once tried his best (sorry Jan, if I used the wrong pronoun, or even if I guessed right -- "Jan" is one of those names that could belong to either gender...) to contribute his best insights into the world of music reproduction, with a sincere desire to offer an exchange of ideas. Now, after about 1000 blows, Jan fights back.

"He may make a lot of noise." Great. This is a hearty endorsement. You know the difference between "..fun and axe-grinding or insulting." If you don't, you are as moronic as the DUP persona. Of course I'm "insulting." What gave you the slightest inkling that I was somehow trying to hide my rhetorical purpose?

I reply in kind. I find your assumptions naive and self-serving. You are obviously morally superior to me. I choose to answer insult with insult. You, being above all conflict, turn the other cheek. Perhaps you will get a gold star for your charity.

The DUP writer is a troll looking for trouble. Verbally, trouble is my middle name, if that's what he wants. Enough is enough. And I have had enough of DUP. Sooner or later you have to fight back when called out. I have been called out many times by DUP. How incredibly psychic of you to notice that I am serious.

Physically, I have never met this "Carl" person -- if you have, you might coach him on his choice for a writing persona.

I just watched "Harold and Kumar Escape From Guantanamo Bay" four times in a row.

What were we talking about?

Oh, yeah, a party!

I suggest January 20, 2009 for the biggest celebration, ever!

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So, while sympathetic to your point of view, to a limited extent, I have no idea how slamming the eminently slammable DUP is, somehow, going to discourage others from participating in our "rewarding hobby." If you love music, it doesn't matter who goes to the mat. If you love conflict, tell DUP that cables matter and Van Alstine + Legacy are not the only possible choices for high fidelity in the home.

As they stand, your comments are too vague to criticize or to agree with. You are uncomfortable with the verbal violence. That shouldn't be a problem.

Clifton,

Didn't mean to use your name specifically; I happen to post just after your post and a response was the way to get into the "fray". But my response was really to the tangential remarks that occurred in the prior 7 pages, that pretty much got off-topic from Fogelsong's initiating post.

Discussion that turned into a debate, and then into personality conflicts, seemingly the norm now. This does not seem to me an attractive force for newbies, or even occasional posters like I have been. Imagine me, signing on once in a while, time already being limited, and wanting to read useful information and contribute to others understanding of my experiences - and see what - verbal slamming back and forth. Well, I feel like I just wasted my time reading all that BS while trying to get through to something useful.

Of course, if (collective) you have a lot of time on your hands to get through the nonsense, then fine. I don't.

I try to contribute something worthwhile whenever I sign on. If I don't have anything that's better than that already said by others, I don't post redundant information if I can help it.

On the contrary, the pages in this thread since page four has not impressed me as worthwhile. Of course there are some useful bits of information here and there, but too much "bickering" (IMHO) if that's the right word (and you are much more eloquent than I).

If I may "represent" an alternative viewpoint, I think that slamming anyone is not productive in this forum, be it DUP or anyone else. If such slamming is the order of the day, then any newbie can be slammed, rightly or wrongly. If I were that newbie, why would I want to be a masochist and stay in this forum? Who is extending the unwelcome mat? Why hasn't Scott Fogelsong posted since page three of the now 14 pages?

My newbie example was specific to a particular one in the past that has not posted since; I do not remember the name or the post referenced, and apologize if that example was vague. If I had more familiarity with the operation of this forum, and the time to become familiar with the same, I could reference that newbie and his post, so you can see what I mean.

I didn't come here for a conflict, but for an intelligent exchange of ideas about audio. Was my expectation too high? I hope not, as there has been good exchange of ideas before, occasionally. Is it too much to ask for more productive discussion and less BS?

(And yes, cables do matter!)

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Others have tried to reason with DUP. I, included. DUP sees such attempts as signs of weakness. DUP is the only regular poster on this site who has to be right. There is no give in him. No syntactical sense, either...but that's another topic.

I have met people in my life who talk or write big-sounding words, making strong claims to knowing what you (collectively) don't know, slamming your ideas, and claiming you got it all wrong. Often, when one carefully investigates, those people don't know $#!+. Sorry if I'm being too "representative" now. But I quickly tire of the nonsense. This situation reminds me of an old saying that goes something like this:

"Wise men speak because they have something to say, Fools speak because they have to say something."

My apologies Clifton. I see you now you truly ENJOY getting worked up for a good fight. Well, then carry on and enjoy!

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Now, I'm hurt. After all we've been through?

Alex, after what I've been through with you, I flush.

I say this thread has nothing to do with the OP's intent anymore & I kind of feel bad about that. Let's move the discussion elsewhere.

Yes, and unfortunately the OP will likely never return - after starting a great thread.

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General Rants'N'Raves

Something got your audio dander up? Relieve the pressure right here!

So what's the problem with this thread folks?

RG

No, in this arena there is a right and a wrong. Like directional speaker wire. Guess which it is on that subject.

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Why hasn't Scott Fogelsong posted since page three of the now 14 pages?

Possibly because he got his stroke and left for greener pastures where he could find another. The man posts his blog address and his resume on his post and asks for congratulations on his brilliance, what do you think he was looking for? I'm not a mind reader so I can't be certain but it does appear he was looking for affirmation of his "well-aimed potshots at the extremists" and a bit of an ego bump. He got it and he moved on. Does that answer your question as to why he hasn't been heard of lately? He's busy looking for another bump. Cruise the forums, I bet you'll find him somewhere.

What he posted is just what we need on this forum, someone else who takes cheap potshots at "extremists" and thinks it's "smart" to ridicule how someone spends their own money and this somehow makes him superior in his skills as a listener when he knocks against their "deluded" beliefs about high priced cables.

Yeah, like we haven't heard that eight bar blues in the last twenty minutes.

The discussion of his post proceeded for several pages before moving away from his topic of discussion. Why did it move away? Why didn't he stay with the thread? Take another look at the thread. Notice who began taking even cheaper shots at how others spend their money and what they believe. The undisputed thread killer of the Stereophile forums. Look right above this post and notice the I-IV-V being played once again even though the discussion isn't about cables.

WTL, you've been here for two years now. You must have seen the exact same words you've posted being posted by others many times over those two years. And you must realize the same argument is made every time this discussion occurs. Now, think about what that argument boils down to.

Almost everyone here would like a productive forum with disussions about audio equipment which lead to a better understanding of the hobby and its benefits. Look at the bottom of the main page to the forum. There are 9648 registered members. How many are active? Forty maybe at any one time? Why do you think the other 9,600 haven't been back?

Almost to a person, no one here disagrees with your feelings. However, how we get to your Utopian forum site isn't spelled out in your post. There's just the same old generic, "Let's all get along", statement that had been posted multiple times even before you joined the forum. Almost all of us have proven we can do that when "get along" is the order of the thread.

If you really want that Utopian playing field you speak of, you'll have to spell it out in a manner that hasn't been tried before. Just saying that's what should exist is, unfortunately, the same repetitive, redundant, meaningless thought you say you try to avoid.

Therefore, if you have an idea that hasn't been tried, let's hear it. Otherwise, sorry to say, you wasted my valuable time.

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General Rants'N'Raves

Something got your audio dander up? Relieve the pressure right here!

So what's the problem with this thread folks?

RG

That description is a good one & this should be the forum to 'relieve the pressure' about audio. Except it's not working out that way. Most of the threads here have been devolving into personal ad hominem attacks & name calling.