Before you write off the Maggies for lack of bass, read this review (below). It truly, EASILY could be a bad setup you heard! Or wrong electronics, and most of all the wrong room. Maybe they need to be much close to the walls, or any number of things.

If they have any interest at all in selling them to you, speakers like that need to be demoed properly, preferably in your house. If it's the same bored guy, and he's not the owner, talk to him instead.

Mag 3.6 review

I'd go FOCUS!!!! They weren't heard in a good room eitehr where they as I recall? Lyric sounds like a crap store to me, if they are disinterested in demoing, I'd be disinterested in doing business with them....$150K or not, you where there, some imaginary $150K wasn't. Focus on it. Better store, better speakers, mean better setup. If Magnaplanar has that kind of representation, they really don't want your business. Any dealings I've had with Legacy has been top notch, from day one. Focus gives you a finished system, not having to tag on stuff to make it sound like a complete system.

Excuses excuses excuses, Legacy is the way to go.

And it appears ROOM PLACEMENT is a major issue with Magnaplanars, Legacy is designed for real world, less if not any room problems..a superior design, by a superior designer.

Sounds like someone needs to make up their mind as to Bach or Rock!

Pink Floyd on Maggies? Your joking us, right Alex?

Didn't you learn anything at Dup's house?

RG

Yes, the Focus have a switch AND, they will modify stuff for you on ordering a set too, I have read where they do some customization of subtle things if requested, don't know about pricing though for such mods.

Focus and Whisper handle anything from Blues, Rock, Bach, Choral, Ochestrations.

maggies + legacys = martin logan. they have about a $5k speaker with real bass and crystal highs and mids.

Man, if you're going to read reviews you need to learn to read between the lines. He closes the review saying that bass lovers won't be happy with the Maggies.

Alex, go with those Legacy things if you're limited to these three choices.

All of them will sound better in your room than in the dealers; however, you can't make bass out of nothing and the poor Maggies just don't have the balls needed for realistic bass, not even string quartet. In your price range you deserve the whole enchilada.

Dave

I don't know if you have ever heard or heard of these but something tells me they may be to your liking. Just under 5K and several dealers in New York and New Jersey.

PMC OB1i

RG

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What made you think I would like them?

Refinement and slam! A tough line to straddle. Bass response down to 28Hz. Easy room placement.

RG

Have you considered the new Epos M16i? Epos makes some great speakers- VERY good quality for the money.

Hi

I know it will sound strange but check out the Quad 22 floor standers, they sound fantastic on delicate material but also can get it on for rock.

Alan

Alex

Here you go

http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/model.php?sector_id=2&range_id=11&model_id=37

Im not an expert but i searched for a long time to find a musical speaker with good dynamics. This fit the bill nicely

Alan

Sounds like you will not be terribly HAPPY with either the legacy or the maggies. I'd say keep looking. At that price level you should be pretty excited and very pleased with your final choice, and that's not where you're at right now.

DeVore?

Plus, you can go hear them locally.

REL subs are a killer match for Magnepan speakers. They really add a nice foundation, but are still quick enough to keep up with the Maggies. Few other subs can do that. Of course the Velodyne will have more impact and more force but sound very mechanical to me. I have Martin Logan CLS speakers, which are a full range electrostat. Very similar to the Magnepans sonically and the only sub I'd ever consider is a REL. I've tried a number of things including a Velodyne DLR 4000R, which I still own from a previous system. It didn't cut the mustard, nor did the other contenders.

AlexO, what's in the rest of your system out of curiosity? What's your room size?

Focus go down to 16Hz. As mentioned in teh Stereophile review of teh previous version, most speaker for teh money is FOCUS, nothing comes close. Shopping is done. And that was at list prices Alex, the deal is even better. ain't it?

In that range Whispers smoke em all. Also most speaker ya could find. Nothing comes close. Once you experience Legacy, you are very hard pressed to beat it, and buying on the mortal price level.

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Actually, I think I would be happy with either Maggies with a sub or the Legacies. I just don't think that either would be perfect. I want perfect.

Another thing is that believe it or not, but it's TOUGH to find anything that sounds even remotely decent (full range) for under 20k. That's why I was so excited when I heard the Whispers at DUP's because you can pick them up for around 7-8k on Audiogon, but they don't show up very often. I guess I could wait for the Whispers as well, but the nice thing about getting the Focus from a dealer is that he'll deliver.

OK, perfection is desired, I understand. Good luck! (meant in both ways!)

I think that avoiding a sub is wise, UNLESS you just can't live without the Maggies. Integrating a sub is seldom that successful in 2-channel.

Also, plan on upgrading your power down the road. Your PS Audio will work for now, but everything you're considering will benefit greatly from much more power than you now have available.

Dave

Sheesh Dave,

Are you doing a Dup on us? 400 watts into 4 ohms. 1,000 watts into 1.5 ohms. Ya really think he needs more?

RG

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REL subs are a killer match for Magnepan speakers. They really add a nice foundation, but are still quick enough to keep up with the Maggies.

AlexO,

Take mrlowry's advise, as did I, regarding the Maggies and REL's...a marvelous match. Granted, I did not spend anywhere near the $$$ you have in mind but you should certainly consider this combination. What is so impressive with the REL is that the amp is a class A/B not a D that is found in, practically, all other subs. It makes a tremendous difference.

Hi Alex,

As a suggestion, SP Technologies has the Continiums, about 7 grand if I remember correctly. I don't own them, and no financial affiliation etc with them. Just heard them with the Belles new Reference 350 amps about 2 years ago.

Just a thought Alex.

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Quote:
REL subs are a killer match for Magnepan speakers. They really add a nice foundation, but are still quick enough to keep up with the Maggies.

AlexO,

Take mrlowry's advise, as did I, regarding the Maggies and REL's...a marvelous match. Granted, I did not spend anywhere near the $$$ you have in mind but you should certainly consider this combination. What is so impressive with the REL is that the amp is a class A/B not a D that is found in, practically, all other subs. It makes a tremendous difference.

Roadster-

Glad to hear that you bought a REL and are loving it. Isn't it amazing how they completely disappear when you have them set up right? RELs are amazing at adding bass without calling any attention to themselves as the source of the extra bass. Rarely do I say that anything is the best of any category but the REL products are an exception. Only the Thiels are as good, maybe slightly better. But if they aren't being integrated with Thiel speakers they are a way more expensive solution.

I'd listen to the Vandersteen Quatro.

I'd stop short of our man DUP, but 1,000 watts into 4 ohms will not be wasted on all those big drivers in the Whispers.

It's not about loudness, it's about control. The more speakers and the larger the speakers the more power needed to control their resonances and move them with all due speed. There's lots of inertia there.

My little Vienna Acoustic Beethoven Baby Grands came alive when I threw my Jeff Rowland Continuum's 1,000 watts into their 4 ohm-ish load. My prior Conrad Johnson had just under 300 watts into 4 ohms and the step up was dramatic and apparent. My VAs are relatively flat down to 30 hz and then drop off sharply. Those Whispers will get you down to 20 hz in the right room.

You'll be able to enjoy your new speakers with your current rig, BUT adding power will yield large improvements.

Dave

Just a small correction, but it is the output impedance (Z) that controls the woofers, not the power supplied. The lower the output Z the more control of resonances.

Damping factor is the normal term, not power.

Also, I think it takes a very large room to really appreciate 20hz. Correct me if I am wrong on this point.

Now back to the regularly scheduled program.

Quote:
Just a small correction, but it is the output impedance (Z) that controls the woofers, not the power supplied. The lower the output Z the more control of resonances.

Damping factor is the normal term, not power.

Also, I think it takes a very large room to really appreciate 20hz. Correct me if I am wrong on this point.

My room is 15'X36'X9' and it's only down 10dB at 20Hz.

I'm reluctant to use the term "damping factor" because there's more to it than that. My Continuum has a very respectable damping factor of over 1000; however, many will tell you that a damping factor at infinity will have very little effective difference from a damping factor of 50 or so.

I don't understand it and I've never found anyone that can even begin to explain it, BUT I hear a correlation in bass control as watts go up and the damping factor is at least decent (say over 50).

One possible explaination is distortion. Perhaps the woolly bass we hear in seemingly uncontrolled woofers is really distortion from underpowered amps driving the woofers in a distorted path.

All I know is that it doesn't take "golden ears" to hear the impact. Even the greenest newbie can hear what I'm talking about.

BTW, I recently heard a 200 watt amp with a damping factor of 1000+ compared to a 500 watt amp from the same maker with the same damping factor on the same speakers (DALI Helicon 400 Mk IIs). The woofers seemed much better controlled with 500 watt than with 200 watts.

Dave

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I don't understand it and I've never found anyone that can even begin to explain it, BUT I hear a correlation in bass control as watts go up and the damping factor is at least decent (say over 50).

Can you describe what you hear as different? How does the bass change?

I am curious as to what you are experiencing as differences.

You know, just use words to describe a sound - easy, right?

Well, listening to the nominal 4 ohm, floorstanding DALI Helicon 400 Mk II.

First I heard them with a Primare 100-watt integrated amp with unknown damping factor. (It probably has around 200 watts into 4 ohms). The bass was wild and woolly , with way too much bloom an boom. It was totally unacceptable.

Next I heard them with the Rowland 102 stereo amp, which is around the same power as the Primare, but a damping factor of 500. It was much better and the bass became more focused and controlled.

Next came the Rowland 501 mono blocks with 1,000 watts into 4 ohms and a 1000 damping factor. The bass became quicker, extened deeper and had no extra bloom or boom. You could more easily hear the harmonics of bass instruments.

I came back to the store with my Conrad Johnson CA200, with about 300 watts into 4 ohms and an unknown damping factor. It was between the Rowland 102 and the 501s, with good harmonic detail, but not as much ease in bass dynamics. There was only slight bloom as compared to the 501s, but not enough to disqualify the amp or speakrs. (I think this is where Alex will be with his PS Audio, in the good but not great category of bass control).

Finally, I brought my Continuum 500, which basically sounded the same as the 501s driven by the Rowland Capri preamp.

So, an amp with 200 watts into 4 ohms was unacceptably woolly, bloomy and boomy in the bass, while another amp with about the same wattage, but a high damping factor was better. When we went to very high wattage and high damping factors things improved even more, with all bloom and boom disappearing and the harmonic bass detail getting much richer and detailed.

Dave

Great descriptions.

It's hard to really know what's going on - whether it is power or damping, or both.

My guess is that one needs enough power to properly excite the woofer - then damping becomes the important factor.

When you think of it, the woofers are almost always moving and changing directions, seldom is there a note and then the woofers come to rest. So, I'm thinking that it's kind of like the inertia needed to accelerate and stop a care that the watts are providing. If you get distortion in the bass region, maybe it's not particularly ugly sounded, just overripe and out of control. When you consider all the harmonic frequencies that are excited all at once, it's amazing to me that speakers can approximate anything like music.

Dave

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When you consider all the harmonic frequencies that are excited all at once, it's amazing to me that speakers can approximate anything like music.

No kidding!

Hi DC,

"All I know is that it doesn't take "golden ears" to hear the impact. Even the greenest newbie can hear what I'm talking about.

BTW, I recently heard a 200 watt amp with a damping factor of 1000+ compared to a 500 watt amp from the same maker with the same damping factor on the same speakers (DALI Helicon 400 Mk IIs). The woofers seemed much better controlled with 500 watt than with 200 watts."

Of course I don't know the design of each, but if electrolytic caps are not isolated well from the direct circuit path, the wooley bass can be caused by the caps, even though the damping factor is extremely high.

Also, it is amazing how just a small change in certain caps can have a profound sonic difference in the music.

Another area to look is the ss devices. I was amazed how much musical information comes through a ss device that is bias past cutoff. The impedance was quite low, approx 50 ohms give or take on both sides of the ss device.

I found this out when performing listening tests.

Just my .02 worth.

Hi

I recently experimented with a Crown CTS 3000 amp, this is a very high quality proaudio amp @ 1500 watts per channel. The bass control was fantastic, the issue I had was that the mids and highs sounded very dry, the was also an issue of the fans kicking on.

Would it be feasible to drive a pair of bi ampable speakers with a sweet sounding amp like my current Quad 909 and the to drive the wooofers with a pro audio amp like the Crown ?

Is there any inherent issues with this idea ? it sounds in simple terms like id get the best of both worlds

Alan

Yes, DUP is getting at least a few things right.

Dave

Alan, bi-amping can be a good thing, BUT amp builders like Jeff Rowland can give you the whole enchilada in one box. Crown is great stuff for pushing PAs and stage monitors. They had a brief foray into hi-fi about 20-years ago. Amps built specifically for home audio by great designers are generally going to sound better top-to-bottom than gig amps. There can be exceptions, but you heard for youself the hardness of Crown's highs.

Dave

Sas, thanks for sharing your experience.

Dave

Dave

I understand that a high end design would be the best way to go but that type of power in a high end amp is going to cost a lot of cake, $10k +

What are the inherent flaws in my thinking ? the mnain one I can come up with is getting the levels correct to balance the two power amp outputs.

How do Valve amps enetr into this discussion about bass control ?

Alan