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bifcake
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Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the dealer

My friend Stew and I visited DUP a few weeks ago and we were very impressed with the sound of his system. However, DUP did everything wrong: he fed one preamp into another, used cheap cables, employed all kinds of crazy equipment, so we decided to check out the Legacy Whispers at a dealer using good equipment and better controlling the listening environment.

Stew brought his equipment: DCS stack - Verdi SACD transport, Purcell upsampler, and Elgar Plus DAC. He also grabbed his MIT Oracle 2.2 Pro cables and off we went to the bowels of Jersey to get a better feel of what the Whispers are capable of.

We picked up DUP at his house and he guided us to the dealer, who had the room prepped for our arrival.


DUP isn't nearly as demented as he looks in this photo

The set up
The dealer let Stew hook up his equipment to the Legacy amp, which was driving the Whispers. The room was about 14'x 20 or so, with the listening position being about 10' away from the speakers. The dealer disconnected the processor, a digital equalizer that comes with the Whispers to allow for room corrections in order to allow us to compare what we heard at DUPs to the new set up.

Set up at the dealer from our listening position

The sound
We listened to our standard set of reference disks. Since Stew was driving this effort (he's considering replacing his Utopias with the Whispers), we listened to mostly classical music with Pink Floyd's Shine On you crazy Diamond thrown in as my personal reference.

We were hoping that the issues we encountered at DUP's, (sound coming from above, lack of front to back soundstaging, and driver integration) would be mitigated with greater distance from the speakers. They were. None of these things existed at the dealer. Alas, the sound was disappointing. Sparkle, air and magic we heard at DUP's was missing. This is not to say that it sounded bad, but it didn't sound much better than Stew's set up (that's saying a lot considering that Whispers are half the price of the Utopia's), but Stew wanted that magic, that envelopment that was missing. We heard Spem in Alium by Tallis Scholars at DUP's and it sounded as though we were in the cathedral. The same disk sounded duller, contained, as if it was recorded in a vacuum. (that's an extreme exaggeration to give you an idea of what was lacking.) There was very good side to side and front to back soundstaging. Clarity and frequency extension were all there. What was missing was air surrounding the instruments and singers. The magic was missing.

I don't know why that was the case. There are too many variables with which to contend. Perhaps the dealer's room was too damped (DUP's room is very live.) If that's the case, then that's the best that Stew can hope for because his listening room is very damped as well. He has bookshelves lined with books on one side, soft furniture and paintings on the other, and a rug on the floor. Whatever, the reason, Stew was disappointed.

Behold, surprise awaits
Before packing up, I asked the dealer if we could hear the Legacy Focus speakers. Since I'm on the market for a pair speakers (I'm considering Magnepans 3.6R,) I figured I'd give the Focus a try given that at $6400 they fall within my range of consideration. I was floored by what I heard. No, they weren't as good as the Whispers. They lacked the refinement in the mid and upper mid range, but they were good. Bass was excellent: tight, deep, controlled, articulate and detailed. The images they projected were smaller than the Whisper's but no much so. If I had to quantify their performance, I would say that they delivered 80% of Whisper's performance for 40% of the price. I was stunned. Focus' performance reminded me of the Sonus Faber Elipsa. I didn't particularly care for the Elipsa because I felt that Elipsa's midrange and highs weren't refined enough for the $20k asking price and that the bass doesn't extend deep enough. Now, imagine Elipsa at $6400 except that the Focus are better! No shit! The Focus bass is deeper, and whereas their midrange and upper mids aren't as refined as the Whisper's, Nova Utopia's or Sonus Faber's Stradivari's, the overall sound is pretty damn good considering the fact that I'm comparing them to $40k speakers. Then, John the dealer gave me an offer that he hoped I couldn't refuse: he offered me a floor sample for the price that made it competitive with the Magnepans. I got to admit it, I got wood. I didn't audition the Magnepans for a long time, but there was a certain kind of magic that Magnepans had. I felt I needed to listen to them one more time before making a decision. I'm probably going to do that this coming week. Regardless of the decision I make, the Focus are VERY impressive speakers and are definitely worth the schlep to Jersey in order to audition.

A mixed bag
The three of us went to dinner after the session, trying to figure out what to do next. Poor Stew was completely bewildered. He knew that the Whispers had the potential to sound better than his set up at half the price, but now he didn't know whether he would be able to bring out that full potential. Perhaps it's the room acoustics, perhaps it's teh 2400watts of biamped power per channel , perhaps it's the cheap cables or perhaps that the DCS stack isn't all it's cracked up to be.

On the other hand, I was elated. I found a relative bargain of a speaker that's a giant killer! Just like the Magnepans, the Focus play with the big boys. They give you the kind of performance that you can't even begin to touch for under $20k. I still want to hear the Maggies again using my reference CDs, but I have a feeling that whatever my decision is going to be, it's going to be a close call.

DUP's lair

After dinner, I asked DUP if it would be ok for us to stop by his house so that I could take pictures of his set up. Being the gracious host that he is, DUP agreed. We hung out at DUP's house for a while, taking pictures, and shooting the shit. Here's his set up. Enjoy.

Dup's listening room
This is DUP's listening/living room. Notice how close the speakers are to the wall and the close seating position to the speakers. Note, DUP's electronics are in a different room.


The entire rack is filled with all kinds of stuff


Top half of the rack


Bottom half of the rack


Van Alstine modified Hafler amps fed into the phase inverter (not seen). DUP bi-amps his Whispers, so these two amps power a single channel. BTW, notice the cooling fans. That room is HOT


Preamps and digital processors


Power conditioners. Note there's another power conditioning box just at the edge of the frame


EQ curve. This is how DUP likes to listen to music. Who am I to say anything?

We hung out for quite some time, trying to analyze the reasons for such a disparity in sound quality between DUP's set up and what we heard at the dealer. We decided that there were too many variables to determine the exact cause. The most likely culprit is the room acoustics, but even that's conjecture at best.


Stew (right) was visibly impressed by the incredible sound generated by all this crap

Overall, we had a good time. Even though the demo wasn't all what we wanted it to be, it was educational none the less and it gave Stew some food for thought. He may not have to change his speakers. Perhaps he needs to change his room's acoustics. He'll have to decide that for himself. Alas, looking at the Hafler 2500 watt clock, it was time to head home.

Many thanks to DUP for hosting once again and many thanks to John at Rock Dreams Electronics in NJ for showcasing the Whispers and the Focus. The experience was very educational. It gave Stew food for thought and it gave me yet another speaker to consider as my next purchase.

ethanwiner
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Excellent report Alex, thanks for doing that.

My only comment is both rooms look like a total crap shoot due to untamed reflections. That is, with no real absorption in either room, the room tone dominates and is likely louder than what's coming directly from the speakers. Which easily explains the huge disparity in one sound quality from one room to the other.

Any weekend you guys want to meet at DUP's again, please invite me. I'll bring a bunch of bass traps and other panels so you can hear what those speakers actually sound like.

--Ethan

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Great report...hey John you gonna hire Alex as a reviewer? I think he tells it perfectly. And man, I don't photograph well at all. But one correction, Van Alstine REBUILDS the amps, he does also make his own NEW pre amps, and amplifiers also. DAC, Phase inverters (in front of amps, not after, they supply the inputs to the amplifiers) Rebuilding the P500 Haflers involves new driver boards, new, more linear faster output MOSFETS, it truly is musical magic, priced for mortals. www.avahifi.com VanAlstine and Legacy.....perfect together. www.legacyaudio.com

CECE
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

The HAFLER CLOCK is much much much better than the old Tice CLOCK, THAT is why it all sounds so GOOD. And it's not even in the same room...now you let out the secret Alex...Magic Hafler CLOCK. Not a TICE.

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
Excellent report Alex, thanks for doing that.

My only comment is both rooms look like a total crap shoot due to untamed reflections. That is, with no real absorption in either room, the room tone dominates and is likely louder than what's coming directly from the speakers. Which easily explains the huge disparity in one sound quality from one room to the other.

Any weekend you guys want to meet at DUP's again, please invite me. I'll bring a bunch of bass traps and other panels so you can hear what those speakers actually sound like.

--Ethan

Ethan,

The dealer had some sort of acoustic paneling on the side walls. I think that if anything, the dealer's room was over damped.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

What's the Audio Research component? It looks like a third preamp.

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

It's a preamp without the volume control. I think it's all passive.

CECE
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

BL-2 Just a switcher, XLR to RCA vice versa, no controls, just a switcher Just running one recorder through it. Korg for playback.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Fun report, Alex.

DUP and Alex, Tale Ethan up on his offer. I would enjoy learning of your impressions after he placed his panels in DUP's space.

I like the Hafler clock a lot. I still like the basic sound of the Hafler 9303 Trans-Nova I bought years ago. A friend now uses it on stage - wonderful stage sound.

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
Fun report, Alex.

DUP and Alex, Tale Ethan up on his offer. I would enjoy learning of your impressions after he placed his panels in DUP's space.

Since DUP is hosting these sessions, it would be up to DUP to invite people. From my perspective, Ethan is welcome any time, but I'm not the one hosting.

Elk
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Which is why my encouragement is directed at both you and DUP.

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

I don't need any encouragement. I would love to pack DUP's house with all the forum members and have him clean up afterwards! It's no shirt off my back. In fact, I'd love to invite JV to DUP's house and watch the fight. It would be great!

Elk
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


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In fact, I'd love to invite JV to DUP's house and watch the fight. It would be great!


I'd fly to new York to see this.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

I would ride my roadie to New York to see this.

Actually, I think DUP would win without throwing a punch; He'd just crank the Whispers up to 110dB and detonate Jan's head.

"DUP, you are such an ass....aaarrrgghhhhgg" BLAM

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Eric,

As the youngest regular member of these forums, you're hereby charged with the cleanup.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

That sounds fair.

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

I meant the cleanup of JV's discharged head.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Understood.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
The dealer had some sort of acoustic paneling on the side walls. I think that if anything, the dealer's room was over damped.


This is a common problem - too much absorption at mid and high frequencies, but not enough below 300 Hz. I can't see the whole room in those photos, but I didn't notice any corner bass traps. With only "thin" absorption in a room the sound can be very unbalanced, especially if there's a lot of thin absorption.

--Ethan

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

I don't know what type of acoustic treatments they had. They had large panels on side walls. I don't know if those are bass or hf traps.

ethanwiner
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

If they had nothing in corners they probably have no bass trapping. You can absorb bass with panels flat on the walls, but the panels need to be at least four inches thick. Hey, at least they had something! I have seen MANY high-end audio stores with $1,000,000 in gear and not even one acoustic panel. They play music and beam proudly as they brag about the fantastic imaging of whatever loudspeaker they're pushing this week, all the while having no idea what good imaging even means. Clueless newbies selling to other clueless newbies.

[Sorry, I guess that's kinda harsh. But it's true.]

--Ethan

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
Clueless newbies selling to other clueless newbies.


At least they are demonstrating the system with the same sound the inexperienced buyer is likely to get at home.

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
If they had nothing in corners they probably have no bass trapping. You can absorb bass with panels flat on the walls, but the panels need to be at least four inches thick. Hey, at least they had something! I have seen MANY high-end audio stores with $1,000,000 in gear and not even one acoustic panel. They play music and beam proudly as they brag about the fantastic imaging of whatever loudspeaker they're pushing this week, all the while having no idea what good imaging even means. Clueless newbies selling to other clueless newbies.

[Sorry, I guess that's kinda harsh. But it's true.]

--Ethan

They had the same kind of acoustic paneling as Sound by Singer has in their top of the line room. At least from the looks of it.

CECE
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

What are those magic twists in the upper left corner...they look like..... http://legacyaudio.com/MarkWsystem.pdf

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
What are those magic twists in the upper left corner...they look like..... http://legacyaudio.com/MarkWsystem.pdf

That guy obviously lacks the porcelain doll tweak you keep in your Precious Moments display case, so he had to settle for those "magic twists.".

Hearing people's experiences has been very cool, Mr. DUP!

Thanks for your openness!

It's also neat the perhaps we are seeing people who prefer a more "live" room setting.

I wonder if what Stew may be missing is not good speakers, but a more salutatory room.

Perhaps as we age, a more live room is something our ears benefit from having.

Pure conjecture, of course. I will stand by my initial idea that it must be the blue and pink Mping-DUP Dolls.

Great thread, by the way.

Thanks to all involved!

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
They had the same kind of acoustic paneling as Sound by Singer has in their top of the line room. At least from the looks of it.


Looking at their site I see no photos of their demo rooms. Some dealer rooms look untreated but really do have adequate bass trapping in the corners behind fabric walls etc. In my experience such rooms are the very rare exception.

--Ethan

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:

I wonder if what Stew may be missing is not good speakers, but a more salutatory room.

Perhaps as we age, a more live room is something our ears benefit from having.

I had that same conversation with Stew as we drove back from DUP's. I told him that obviously the Whispers at the dealer's don't live up to their full potential since they sound so much better at DUP's. Since Stew's room is dead, it's entirely possible that his speakers don't live up to their full potential. So, I suggested that playing with the room's acoustics may be the thing to do rather than look for a different set of speakers.

He's reluctant to re-arrange his room since that would require an awful lot of work. However, he is mulling that idea and he also wondered whether a digital equalizer is the way to go to compensate for his room's acoustics.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Quote: "He's reluctant to re-arrange his room since that would require an awful lot of work."

_________________

And this guy calls himself an "audiophile?!?!"

Totally kidding. The concept of audio or personal inertia is a valid answer.

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Stew's bookshelves and CD/record cases weigh a ton. There's no way he would be able to move the stuff around all by himself. I could help, but the cost is very high, hence, he's reluctant to rearrange his room.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

www.rane.com DEQ 66L orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a Yorkville DLMS4080? Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Remeber, the Whispers might sound even better with the Legacy controller that wasn't working at the time at the dealer...what if you find out when John get's it back up, you give them another listen.........hmmmmmmmm. No magic twistys or DUP dolls.....

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

http://www.klarkteknik.com/images/content/products/product_shots/dn370/dn370-front.jpg

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http://www.klarkteknik.com/images/content/products/product_shots/dn9340e/dn9340e-front.jpg

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Couple of things:

a) Stewart was talking EXCLUSIVELY about a digital EQ, not an analog EQ

b) Stew is reluctant to go with the Legacy processor because it's installed AFTER the initial DA conversion is done. It takes the analog input of the preamp, converts it to digital, processes it and then converts it back to analog. It essentially negates his $35k CD player. He's toying with the idea (this is in very preliminary stages right now) with a digital EQ that would be installed between the transport and the DAC (if that's possible) in order to do all the equalization in the digital domain BEFORE it's converted to analog.

Again, he's only rummaging through various options and nothing has been decided. In fact, he may decide to do nothing.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

What a delight!
Thanks so much for this post Alex.

I've been out of touch for a couple weeks, and your excellent article (and response) is a pleasure to read.

Its staggering to see what DUP has for a system. Next time I buy something and the wife grumbles, I'll show your pictures of his back room to prove that I'm not even in the same league as a real audiophile.

Also, very cool to get a sense of DUP as a person, rather than just a point of view.

Despite the importance of gear here at the forum, I do enjoy the personalities as well.

Now, it gets me wondering what amazing systems some other folks may have.

Good job!

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
He's toying with the idea (this is in very preliminary stages right now) with a digital EQ that would be installed between the transport and the DAC (if that's possible) in order to do all the equalization in the digital domain BEFORE it's converted to analog.


This is readily doable. For example, this is the preferred way to use Tact's sound correction equipment. There are also plenty of digital EQs on the market.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Thanks man. I enjoyed spending time with DUP and at the dealer's, going through the stuff and trying to find that audio nirvana.

A few things I learned:

1. DUP is not a mad serial killer who murders his victims by exposing them to megawatts of amplification. In fact, he's quite cordial.

2. Having heard his system, I would not be so quick to dismiss DUP's ideas about power, drivers, electronics, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean that I subscribe to everything he says whole heartedly, but I certainly don't dismiss them off hand.

3. I'm also quite surprised that Mrs. DUP lets DUP put all that crap in. Most wives would rebel against the Whispers, much less any other gear.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:

3. I'm also quite surprised that Mrs. DUP lets DUP put all that crap in. Most wives would rebel against the Whispers, much less any other gear.

Mrs. DUP?

Dang. Now he can claim the DUP-ingo Dolls aren't his.

Oh, well.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Great to read the follow up thread as well. And nice to see people actually having a real world inter reaction around music. As I have said before, reminds me of the 60's and 70's when people went to share music.. and not show off their equiptment and pose their "knowledge".

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

I get one room and half the other, the rest of the house is her's.....sounds like a fair deal. But then when I CRANK It.....it's all MINE!!!!!!!!!! MINE I tell you..!!!!The wall boundrys become irrelavant!!!

bifcake
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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

I'm surprised Mrs. DUP hasn't poisoned you.

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale

Oh she has.... with her generosity and letting me indulge, and her years of undersatnding..

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Re: Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the deale


Quote:
I'm surprised Mrs. DUP hasn't poisoned you.


Perhaps she has. This would explain many things . . .

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