bifcake
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Day at DUP's - Checking out the Legacy speakers at the dealer
ethanwiner
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Excellent report Alex, thanks for doing that.

My only comment is both rooms look like a total crap shoot due to untamed reflections. That is, with no real absorption in either room, the room tone dominates and is likely louder than what's coming directly from the speakers. Which easily explains the huge disparity in one sound quality from one room to the other.

Any weekend you guys want to meet at DUP's again, please invite me. I'll bring a bunch of bass traps and other panels so you can hear what those speakers actually sound like.

--Ethan

CECE
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Great report...hey John you gonna hire Alex as a reviewer? I think he tells it perfectly. And man, I don't photograph well at all. But one correction, Van Alstine REBUILDS the amps, he does also make his own NEW pre amps, and amplifiers also. DAC, Phase inverters (in front of amps, not after, they supply the inputs to the amplifiers) Rebuilding the P500 Haflers involves new driver boards, new, more linear faster output MOSFETS, it truly is musical magic, priced for mortals. www.avahifi.com VanAlstine and Legacy.....perfect together. www.legacyaudio.com

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The HAFLER CLOCK is much much much better than the old Tice CLOCK, THAT is why it all sounds so GOOD. And it's not even in the same room...now you let out the secret Alex...Magic Hafler CLOCK. Not a TICE.

bifcake
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Quote:
Excellent report Alex, thanks for doing that.

My only comment is both rooms look like a total crap shoot due to untamed reflections. That is, with no real absorption in either room, the room tone dominates and is likely louder than what's coming directly from the speakers. Which easily explains the huge disparity in one sound quality from one room to the other.

Any weekend you guys want to meet at DUP's again, please invite me. I'll bring a bunch of bass traps and other panels so you can hear what those speakers actually sound like.

--Ethan

Ethan,

The dealer had some sort of acoustic paneling on the side walls. I think that if anything, the dealer's room was over damped.

mrlowry
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What's the Audio Research component? It looks like a third preamp.

bifcake
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It's a preamp without the volume control. I think it's all passive.

CECE
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BL-2 Just a switcher, XLR to RCA vice versa, no controls, just a switcher Just running one recorder through it. Korg for playback.

Elk
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Fun report, Alex.

DUP and Alex, Tale Ethan up on his offer. I would enjoy learning of your impressions after he placed his panels in DUP's space.

I like the Hafler clock a lot. I still like the basic sound of the Hafler 9303 Trans-Nova I bought years ago. A friend now uses it on stage - wonderful stage sound.

bifcake
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Quote:
Fun report, Alex.

DUP and Alex, Tale Ethan up on his offer. I would enjoy learning of your impressions after he placed his panels in DUP's space.

Since DUP is hosting these sessions, it would be up to DUP to invite people. From my perspective, Ethan is welcome any time, but I'm not the one hosting.

Elk
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Which is why my encouragement is directed at both you and DUP.

bifcake
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I don't need any encouragement. I would love to pack DUP's house with all the forum members and have him clean up afterwards! It's no shirt off my back. In fact, I'd love to invite JV to DUP's house and watch the fight. It would be great!

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Quote:
In fact, I'd love to invite JV to DUP's house and watch the fight. It would be great!


I'd fly to new York to see this.

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I would ride my roadie to New York to see this.

Actually, I think DUP would win without throwing a punch; He'd just crank the Whispers up to 110dB and detonate Jan's head.

"DUP, you are such an ass....aaarrrgghhhhgg" BLAM

bifcake
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Eric,

As the youngest regular member of these forums, you're hereby charged with the cleanup.

bobedaone
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That sounds fair.

bifcake
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I meant the cleanup of JV's discharged head.

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Understood.

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Quote:
The dealer had some sort of acoustic paneling on the side walls. I think that if anything, the dealer's room was over damped.


This is a common problem - too much absorption at mid and high frequencies, but not enough below 300 Hz. I can't see the whole room in those photos, but I didn't notice any corner bass traps. With only "thin" absorption in a room the sound can be very unbalanced, especially if there's a lot of thin absorption.

--Ethan

bifcake
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I don't know what type of acoustic treatments they had. They had large panels on side walls. I don't know if those are bass or hf traps.

ethanwiner
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If they had nothing in corners they probably have no bass trapping. You can absorb bass with panels flat on the walls, but the panels need to be at least four inches thick. Hey, at least they had something! I have seen MANY high-end audio stores with $1,000,000 in gear and not even one acoustic panel. They play music and beam proudly as they brag about the fantastic imaging of whatever loudspeaker they're pushing this week, all the while having no idea what good imaging even means. Clueless newbies selling to other clueless newbies.

[Sorry, I guess that's kinda harsh. But it's true.]

--Ethan

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Quote:
Clueless newbies selling to other clueless newbies.


At least they are demonstrating the system with the same sound the inexperienced buyer is likely to get at home.

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Quote:
If they had nothing in corners they probably have no bass trapping. You can absorb bass with panels flat on the walls, but the panels need to be at least four inches thick. Hey, at least they had something! I have seen MANY high-end audio stores with $1,000,000 in gear and not even one acoustic panel. They play music and beam proudly as they brag about the fantastic imaging of whatever loudspeaker they're pushing this week, all the while having no idea what good imaging even means. Clueless newbies selling to other clueless newbies.

[Sorry, I guess that's kinda harsh. But it's true.]

--Ethan

They had the same kind of acoustic paneling as Sound by Singer has in their top of the line room. At least from the looks of it.

CECE
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What are those magic twists in the upper left corner...they look like..... http://legacyaudio.com/MarkWsystem.pdf

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Quote:
What are those magic twists in the upper left corner...they look like..... http://legacyaudio.com/MarkWsystem.pdf

That guy obviously lacks the porcelain doll tweak you keep in your Precious Moments display case, so he had to settle for those "magic twists.".

Hearing people's experiences has been very cool, Mr. DUP!

Thanks for your openness!

It's also neat the perhaps we are seeing people who prefer a more "live" room setting.

I wonder if what Stew may be missing is not good speakers, but a more salutatory room.

Perhaps as we age, a more live room is something our ears benefit from having.

Pure conjecture, of course. I will stand by my initial idea that it must be the blue and pink Mping-DUP Dolls.

Great thread, by the way.

Thanks to all involved!

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Quote:
They had the same kind of acoustic paneling as Sound by Singer has in their top of the line room. At least from the looks of it.


Looking at their site I see no photos of their demo rooms. Some dealer rooms look untreated but really do have adequate bass trapping in the corners behind fabric walls etc. In my experience such rooms are the very rare exception.

--Ethan

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Quote:

I wonder if what Stew may be missing is not good speakers, but a more salutatory room.

Perhaps as we age, a more live room is something our ears benefit from having.

I had that same conversation with Stew as we drove back from DUP's. I told him that obviously the Whispers at the dealer's don't live up to their full potential since they sound so much better at DUP's. Since Stew's room is dead, it's entirely possible that his speakers don't live up to their full potential. So, I suggested that playing with the room's acoustics may be the thing to do rather than look for a different set of speakers.

He's reluctant to re-arrange his room since that would require an awful lot of work. However, he is mulling that idea and he also wondered whether a digital equalizer is the way to go to compensate for his room's acoustics.

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Quote: "He's reluctant to re-arrange his room since that would require an awful lot of work."

_________________

And this guy calls himself an "audiophile?!?!"

Totally kidding. The concept of audio or personal inertia is a valid answer.

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Stew's bookshelves and CD/record cases weigh a ton. There's no way he would be able to move the stuff around all by himself. I could help, but the cost is very high, hence, he's reluctant to rearrange his room.

CECE
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www.rane.com DEQ 66L orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a Yorkville DLMS4080? Orrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Remeber, the Whispers might sound even better with the Legacy controller that wasn't working at the time at the dealer...what if you find out when John get's it back up, you give them another listen.........hmmmmmmmm. No magic twistys or DUP dolls.....

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http://www.klarkteknik.com/images/content/products/product_shots/dn370/dn370-front.jpg

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http://www.klarkteknik.com/images/content/products/product_shots/dn9340e/dn9340e-front.jpg

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Couple of things:

a) Stewart was talking EXCLUSIVELY about a digital EQ, not an analog EQ

b) Stew is reluctant to go with the Legacy processor because it's installed AFTER the initial DA conversion is done. It takes the analog input of the preamp, converts it to digital, processes it and then converts it back to analog. It essentially negates his $35k CD player. He's toying with the idea (this is in very preliminary stages right now) with a digital EQ that would be installed between the transport and the DAC (if that's possible) in order to do all the equalization in the digital domain BEFORE it's converted to analog.

Again, he's only rummaging through various options and nothing has been decided. In fact, he may decide to do nothing.

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What a delight!
Thanks so much for this post Alex.

I've been out of touch for a couple weeks, and your excellent article (and response) is a pleasure to read.

Its staggering to see what DUP has for a system. Next time I buy something and the wife grumbles, I'll show your pictures of his back room to prove that I'm not even in the same league as a real audiophile.

Also, very cool to get a sense of DUP as a person, rather than just a point of view.

Despite the importance of gear here at the forum, I do enjoy the personalities as well.

Now, it gets me wondering what amazing systems some other folks may have.

Good job!

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Quote:
He's toying with the idea (this is in very preliminary stages right now) with a digital EQ that would be installed between the transport and the DAC (if that's possible) in order to do all the equalization in the digital domain BEFORE it's converted to analog.


This is readily doable. For example, this is the preferred way to use Tact's sound correction equipment. There are also plenty of digital EQs on the market.

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Thanks man. I enjoyed spending time with DUP and at the dealer's, going through the stuff and trying to find that audio nirvana.

A few things I learned:

1. DUP is not a mad serial killer who murders his victims by exposing them to megawatts of amplification. In fact, he's quite cordial.

2. Having heard his system, I would not be so quick to dismiss DUP's ideas about power, drivers, electronics, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean that I subscribe to everything he says whole heartedly, but I certainly don't dismiss them off hand.

3. I'm also quite surprised that Mrs. DUP lets DUP put all that crap in. Most wives would rebel against the Whispers, much less any other gear.

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Quote:

3. I'm also quite surprised that Mrs. DUP lets DUP put all that crap in. Most wives would rebel against the Whispers, much less any other gear.

Mrs. DUP?

Dang. Now he can claim the DUP-ingo Dolls aren't his.

Oh, well.

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Great to read the follow up thread as well. And nice to see people actually having a real world inter reaction around music. As I have said before, reminds me of the 60's and 70's when people went to share music.. and not show off their equiptment and pose their "knowledge".

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I get one room and half the other, the rest of the house is her's.....sounds like a fair deal. But then when I CRANK It.....it's all MINE!!!!!!!!!! MINE I tell you..!!!!The wall boundrys become irrelavant!!!

bifcake
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I'm surprised Mrs. DUP hasn't poisoned you.

CECE
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Oh she has.... with her generosity and letting me indulge, and her years of undersatnding..

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Quote:
I'm surprised Mrs. DUP hasn't poisoned you.


Perhaps she has. This would explain many things . . .

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