It looks like a baby bottle .

Quote:
Is this a return to "Advent" type foam surround? Is this speaker just weird for weird sakes? http://www.stereophile.com/images/home45.jpg

That driver has a multitude of 'cutting edge' things going on, there. Very smart.

It's not my job to explain all aspects of it, Dup. What would happen is I'd be explaining to any listening designers about how those folks (with the pictured driver) make their money - via innovation.

This would also shoot me in the foot, as I (we) are getting to the point where we are releasing speakers soon. I'd be telling every loudspeaker designer who has no clue (the dense ones), how to understand things about drivers that they may have never even possibly considered before. The smart ones would be listening very, very attentively. In that way, I'd be creating my own competition. Not a very smart thing for me to do.

You don't have to believe me, you can do as you please.

Some day Dup, some day. Some day you'll know something.

But not today.

Who's ever heard of cooking a hot dog in a speaker?

Here is the vehicle that delivers the speakers

Quote:
Jan V. knows about using speakers that are way to small and thinking it's full range hi fi.

And you know about taking all the speakers out of those six or seven yellow and purple cars that drive by my house shaking the ground with one note bass and you call that hifi.

The driver's surround will determine how the upper frequency range of the driver's response is terminated and therefore how the driver "sounds". In part foam surrounds fell out of favor due to the lack of desire for better sound being replaced by the desire for more convenient audio systems. The same thing doomed the reel to reel tape as the playback media of choice based on sound quality, the VHS over Beta, digital over analog and iPods over any storage device with higher sampling rates - higher sampling rates as found on SACD and not CD, which format won the race?. It wasn't about sound quality was it? Once again, dup, you ignore precious, vital information for the proaganda you prefer to push down people's throats as dupisms.

Why do so many speaker manufacturers try to defy physics by expanding low frequency output from a physically small cone? I'm no expert, but is designing the cone size bigger such a big deal? I mean, who's room is so small that you can't spare 5 or 6 more inches? Like I said, I'm no expert and my opinion may be naive.

Quote:
I mean, who's room is so small that you can't spare 5 or 6 more inches?

Uh...Ron Jeremy's?

Quote:

Quote:
I mean, who's room is so small that you can't spare 5 or 6 more inches?

Uh...Ron Jeremy's?

That was good

I think it looks like a male dog in heat--- still could be delivered via the weiner-mobile too!

Wow. Nice work. Did you do the Plavix commercial?

Quote:
Why do so many speaker manufacturers try to defy physics by expanding low frequency output from a physically small cone? I'm no expert, but is designing the cone size bigger such a big deal? I mean, who's room is so small that you can't spare 5 or 6 more inches? Like I said, I'm no expert and my opinion may be naive.

Hi Riv,

Multiple cones might be the way to go.

I think there are a couple of concerns with large cones. The first is that of cone flexing; the larger the cone the less like a rigid piston it is, adding distortion. Correct me if I am off, but I would venture a guess that cone flexing is not proportional to the increase in radius or area.

Larger cones might also store more energy than multiple cones, plus other differences, causing more distortion problems. I am sure there are those with more experience and expertise with speaker testing than me.

I think another concern is that the woofer produces sound well into the midrange, where beaming could/would be a problem, depending upon the Xover frequency, order of crossover etc.

Of course, the smaller cones need a sub, which I would expect companies to explain.

Take care.
Steve

Hi Steve, Thanks for the info.. Ah, yes...distortion. Remember the Cerwin Vega speakers with the 15" woofers ("Disco speakers")? Those had a lot of distortion. Klipsch speakers also tend to have more distortion. Good point.

Speaking of bizarre...am I the only one annoyed by animated avitars? I would like to see them banned (other forums have done it.) Actually, what I really want is to wring that chimps neck. Very annoying to see constant movement while trying to read.

JMHO. General Rant done.

Bob

Thanks Rivcuban- I assume you mean the animation on my website. I didn't do the Plavix commercial- very little broadcast work actually. Mostly for educating doctors or other medical professionals, or as part of consumer information that is not directly sales oriented.

I don't understand how that cute little speaker could get DUP so upset that he forgets how to spell simple words.

DUP, I, like KBK, am so smart that I understand this sort of thing; but if I could reduce the information into language you could understand, you would die just from having all that new knowledge start knocking the spirochetes off your brain cells.

I care too much to let that happen.

KBK doesn't want to give away "trade secrets," I just don't want you to die.

"KBK doesn't want to give away "trade secrets," I just don't want you to die."

By the dryly sarcastic tone you are taking, I am assuming I am not the only here who believes KBK doesn't actually HAVE any trade secrets, and that real innovators don't act like coy school girls when discussing their work?

Ever read interviews by the owners/inventors of Krell, Martin Logan, Well-Tempered, VTL, Wilson speakers? They are happy to share lots of information of what they are doing, and how they got there. It's because they know it's not just the idea, it's the implementation and the business that counts. I think KBKs whole shtick is is a naive way of generating excitement and mystique, but somehow I don't think that is going to make any converts around here...

Quote:
Speaking of bizarre...am I the only one annoyed by animated avitars?

Wait until you see what that wiener-mobile looks like as it makes a series of sudden acceleration and sudden braking - evocative.

Quote:
"KBK doesn't want to give away "trade secrets," I just don't want you to die."

By the dryly sarcastic tone you are taking, I am assuming I am not the only here who believes KBK doesn't actually HAVE any trade secrets, and that real innovators don't act like coy school girls when discussing their work?

Ever read interviews by the owners/inventors of Krell, Martin Logan, Well-Tempered, VTL, Wilson speakers? They are happy to share lots of information of what they are doing, and how they got there. It's because they know it's not just the idea, it's the implementation and the business that counts. I think KBKs whole shtick is is a naive way of generating excitement and mystique, but somehow I don't think that is going to make any converts around here...

That's a quite juvenile and uninformed opinion you have there.

That is part of the reason that most manufacturers won't come to places like this and post. The other reasons...are among the points I've already stated. I mean, example: --Do you want Dave Wilson to sit around and discuss how Magnepan makes speakers? WTF? WTF? Again..WTF? Do you think, in any way, shape, or form, it's going to do EITHER of them one iota of good?

If you think I'm here to be egotistical and promote myself, you've really got things quite bass-ackwards.

I'm here because I love the hobby and I love music. And I'm taking it on the chin from comments and positions like that, due to your lack of clarity on what is correct in business. I'm walking a brutally hard line to walk, and your comments only make that more difficult.

The only thing you see of those manufacturers are not their daily farts and egresses, but specifically--tightly controlled scripts.

I'm as human as the next guy. And I'm here every day. You may either like them more on a daily basis, or you might ultimately find some of them quite offensive. Think about that for a while.

It's too bad. I like both you guys. I'll have to re-address my opinion of the both of you**. Neither of you appear to be as balanced and thinking as I thought you could be. perhaps you usually are. but not here, and not today.

**(possibly-Buddha ridiculed the situation, but I've no idea what his intent was, it was not flat out direct-but yours was. However, this is not the first time that Buddha has flagrantly violated the basic tenant of his 'handle', which does give me pause.)

Edit: I'm here because I have copies of Stereophile that I bought in the original stapled form.

I'm here to help the Stereophile forum grow.

I'm here because I love Audio so much, I bought the magazine ONLY off of newsstands at FULL PRICE, in order to KEEP it in the public eye. At great cost to my pocketbook. Only in the desire to have the rag around and keep the odd stranger looking at it, picking it up, buying it. I even went through the trouble of buying it from different newsstands in the area, every other month. This, for over 20 years.

I'm here because I give a fuck about Stereophile, OK? Is that OK with you two assholes?

As for the perception of ego and self promotion, I've never lied to anyone or misrepresented myself in my entire life. I'm so fucking honest and straightforward that my business partners want to leave me at home when we go to shows, or tie me up and leave me in the car. For when people ask me a question, I do my best to answer it with as much information and integrity as I can muster, which is bad for business. Too much information!

To be accused of bullshit, god. So far off the mark, it's not funny.

If this text looks 'angry' and full of 'bluff', etc..to you, remember, that's not me. It's all in your head. Not mine. It's merely the way I'm typing.

After all, those are the sorts of leeway and largess I give you, and anyone else. It's the internet. It's written communication. Remember, John Atkinson said he met DUP at a show. Carl, his name is. A totally different animal in person. We are not all grandiose experts in the organization of flowering prose. We are only human. I expect the both of you are great guys in person. Why would I expect any different?

But..once again, neither of you are doing yourselves any favours with this kind of shit talk here. I never drift into shit talk. I keep my integrity here, at home, on the forums, in every minute that I breathe.

For in the end, it's all we have.

Now, Dbowker, look at your signature. "Truth equals Beauty". You meet me at a show some day, somewhere..and look me in the eye. Tell me that I'm lying.

Well- despite your torrent of angry words and swearing, which I can overlook without getting personally offended, my point would still be this: if you have somehting meaningful or instructive to share- then share it! If you have a secret you think needs keeping, OK then, but don't continually keep posting all about how much you know, but can't share, and how great it is that you're here to tell what you can't tell. It's ridiculous at best, and whether you mean it to be, comes off as nothing more than self-promoting. I'm sorry if that's not your intention, but assuming we're both speaking English, that's what it appears like in print. Nobody likes a Know it All, but you come off sounding like one with nothing to back it up because it's all a "secret."

Again- any good business man and inventor can without fear present their ideas publicly because they know 90% can prove their point while withholding 10% for safety. You present 10%, and expect us to take your word for it the other 90% is the next revolution in audio!

I mentioned this before- I spent years working with literally some of the top patent litigation attorney's in the country, analyzed numerous patents, even help write some, and NOBODY presents their work with a curtain in front of it and just says "trust me, it's going to be great!"

Look at the technical animation on my site- some of the most radical innovations I've helped illustrate were animated IN DETAIL, showing every aspect of what the machine does and how it does it, all publicly, because they had good patents and knew it's the execution as much as the idea that makes a business succeed. Paranoia won't get you and friends--- or too many business partners either.

Notice I said all that with no name calling. Jes' sayin'...

Quote:
--Do you want Dave Wilson to sit around and discuss how Magnepan makes speakers?

Yes

Quote:
WTF? WTF? Again..WTF?

To quote Sam Jackson in Pulp Fiction, "Say WTF again! Say WTF again, I dare you to say WTF again!"

Quote:

Do you think, in any way, shape, or form, it's going to do EITHER of them one iota of good?

Yes. It shows that they're products are on the level in terms of having real science behind their designs. The same goes for all manufacturers.

Quote:
If you think I'm here to be egotistical and promote myself, you've really got things quite bass-ackwards.

ATTENTION K-MART SHOPPERS! PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT KBK IS NOT, I REPEAT, IS NOT HERE TO PROMOTE HIMSELF. THANK YOU.

Quote:
I'm as human as the next guy.

Now, THERE'S a revelation!

Quote:
I'm here because I love Audio so much, I bought the magazine ONLY off of newsstands at FULL PRICE, in order to KEEP it in the public eye. At great cost to my pocketbook. Only in the desire to have the rag around and keep the odd stranger looking at it, picking it up, buying it. I even went through the trouble of buying it from different newsstands in the area, every other month. This, for over 20 years.

Wow! If that doesn't constitutes heroics, I don't know what does! DUP, you should take note of this.

Quote:
I'm here because I give a fuck about Stereophile, OK? Is that OK with you two assholes?

Quote:
I like both you guys.

He likes both of you assholes in the context of giving a fuck about Stereophile! Why can't you just accept that? WTF??? Again, WTF???

Quote:
As for the perception of ego and self promotion, I've never lied to anyone or misrepresented myself in my entire life. I'm so fucking honest and straightforward that my business partners want to leave me at home when we go to shows, or tie me up and leave me in the car. For when people ask me a question, I do my best to answer it with as much information and integrity as I can muster, which is bad for business. Too much information!

Hence - honesty is bad for business. This is precisely the point I make when I rant against dealers.

Quote:

To be accused of bullshit, god. So far off the mark, it's not funny.

I feel your pain, dude.

Quote:
If this text looks 'angry' and full of 'bluff', etc..to you, remember, that's not me. It's all in your head. Not mine. It's merely the way I'm typing.

If DUP's posts look repetitive and misspelled, it's not him. It's all in your head. Merely the way he types. So, there! I hope that puts to bed all those misguided criticisms of our poor DUP. Not unlike the Kaiser, DUP is simply misunderstood.

Quote:
Remember, John Atkinson said he met DUP at a show. Carl, his name is. A totally different animal in person.

He is. I think he's a lemur in person, whereas he's more like a seafood monkey on the forums.

Quote:

We are not all grandiose experts in the organization of flowering prose. We are only human.

Do you hear that? Cut DUP some slack! He's not a grandiose expert in the organization of flowering prose. Whereas he's not human, but rather a lemur or a seafood monkey depending on the venue and perspective, I think he deserves our consideration.

BTW, I love that quote. KBK, do you mind if I use that as my signature?

Quote:

I expect the both of you are great guys in person. Why would I expect any different?

Hmmm.... oh, I don't know... could it be because you called them "assholes"?

Quote:

But..once again, neither of you are doing yourselves any favours with this kind of shit talk here. I never drift into shit talk. I keep my integrity here, at home, on the forums, in every minute that I breathe.

For in the end, it's all we have.

All we have is shit talk? I guess so. Come to think of it. How bizarre!

Quote:

Now, Dbowker, look at your signature. "Truth equals Beauty". You meet me at a show some day, somewhere..and look me in the eye. Tell me that I'm lying.

Don't do it, Dbowker! It's a jedi mind trick! He'll make you do things... unthinkable things...

"Don't do it, Dbowker! It's a jedi mind trick! He'll make you do things... unthinkable things... "

Funny post dude---Glad you have my back Alex. I'll be very carefull indeed...

I do not know what info Kbk has, maybe something, maybe nothing. I just hope some don't consider all of us crooks. Some of us actually refuse sales because we could not help the potential customer in their situation.

We, small companies, cannot file a patent? It is so expensive and the cost to enforce it is enormous, let alone the years and possibly decades spent in litigation? Try to understand Dup.

Crooked competitors, shills, and reviewers (I know at 4 reviewers personally, luckily none from Stereophile) constantly pound us into the ground, so we can't give up our advantage by handing over our research?

Are we suppose to receive no compensation for our work? Are any willing to work without pay? DIYers would love to know and copy what we learn, all without paying a cent.

Again, I do not know what KBK knows, but I can understand his general point concerning not revealing secrets. Maybe just change his rhethoric a little?

Take care Gents and have a nice week.

ps. Your quite welcome Rivcuban.

Quote:
We, small companies, cannot file a patent? It is so expensive and the cost to enforce it is enormous, let alone the years and possibly decades spent in litigation?

To obtain a patent routinely costs $50k or more.

The averagecost of a patent suit is $1,000,000.00 for each side.

There is no way a small company can afford these expenses.

Thanks for the figures Elk. Much appreciated.

Scary, is it not?

It doesn't cost $50k to file a patent. It costs money to do a patent search to ensure that your ideas aren't infringing on an existing patent. It doesn't cost $50k to do it. It costs around $10-$15k.

You are not doing yourself any favors with these types of posts, KBK.

They come across as pompous, condescending and , recently, angry.

The name calling doesn't suit you well either.

If I want to learn more about quantum theory I can talk with degreed physicists and take a class.
Perhaps you should stick with what you actually know, whatever that is.

Quote:
It doesn't cost $50k to file a patent. It costs money to do a patent search to ensure that your ideas aren't infringing on an existing patent. It doesn't cost $50k to do it. It costs around $10-$15k.

Depends on the patent - the area, prior art, etc. Highly technical patents in crowded fields get more expensive.

Regardless - patents are prohibitively expensive for a small business.

Quote:

Perhaps you should stick with what you actually know, whatever that is.

He can't stick with what he actually knows because the stuff he actually knows, he can't tell us. Hence, he's forced to stick with the stuff that he doesn't know because that's the kind of stuff he can talk freely about. Do I have to explain everything to you, Tomjtx?

I know of a high end speaker company that had a patented driver which was completely reversed engineered by it's compensation and used in a commercial product. The litigation took about 10 years, and helped put the offending company out of business. The company that sued said that it cost so much to enforce the patent that they are not sure that they would ever do it again.

Don't hurt my chimp or I'll report you to PETA! There, are you less annoyed now? Hehe.

Quote:
Small companies that have some grandious ideas they think are breakthrough, will stay small if not getting patents for their great ideas. Sounds like poor business if you have such great ideas, and don't patent them and license it. Maybe teh problem with having no patents is you really can't prove it is different or better than existing patents, and therefore maybe they where disallowed? If it's such a "breakthrough" and it costs only $50K to protect this breakthrough, and you don't spend the $50K, it's probably not such a breakthrough now is it? How do you come up with $50K to do a patent? Can you wring out these numbers? Sounds like how some high end sellers of BS make up their prices.

I see Mr. L gave a great response. Thanks.

No, the problem is we cannot afford it, and I have had people and one company say they will get one and copy it. Am I going to sue an individual? Can I afford to sue a corp, with all its power and go at it for years, if not decades?

Why don't you take some classes and spend years investigating circuit design before you claim to know it all while accusing us/me of knowing nothing and that I am cheating you?

Yes, Elk, it is scary indeed.

Quote:

Quote:

Perhaps you should stick with what you actually know, whatever that is.

He can't stick with what he actually knows because the stuff he actually knows, he can't tell us. Hence, he's forced to stick with the stuff that he doesn't know because that's the kind of stuff he can talk freely about. Do I have to explain everything to you, Tomjtx?

Thanks for clearing that up Alex.
I now understand but I can't repeat what I understand because no one else could understand it anyway but in case they might I have to patent my understanding first or my business partners will break my kneecaps in an alternate universe, most likely the 3rd brane.

But I am already saying too much, although probably no one here has the intellect or, dare I say, brutal integrity to fully comprehend this post's meaning.
I know I don't.

Tomjtx,

I think you're on to something. I suggest you patent your integrity and then sell it!

I just did a quick search - no Frank Van Alstine patents other than his long lapsed phono circuit on which he is co-inventor.

This doesn't mean he doesn't do perfectly fine work however.

SASAudio:

The mere fact that you have a physical location, plus a web address, with real products and White Papers to explain how they work, puts you an in infinitely more credible position than KBK is, at this point anyway. Your points about needing to defend patents to the point of bankruptcy is exactly where justice starts to break down. In many cases it's better to just keep fighting it out in the market with better product or marketing, and let the chips fall where the will.

Unfortunately, many large corp.s allot as much money for litigation as marketing and see it as a valid way of destroying their competition, (or cornering the market). I've seen mediocre patents get taken up by brilliant law firms who just about squeeze the life out their clients' competitors via continuous law suits. Not exactly what the Patent and Trademark office was originally made for I'm guessing. The consumer (or taxpayer) rarely benefits from patent litigation!