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bertdw
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Audiophile Prejudices

Prejudice (pre-ju-dis), noun. A judgment or opinion formed before the facts are known; a preconceived idea, favorable or, more usually, unfavorable.

While auditioning loudspeakers recently, I developed a new audiophile prejudice and simultaneously realized I had at least one other to begin with. I

jazzfan
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Sure I have a few audiophile prejudices. The main one that I can think of is that I'm prejudiced against anyone who blindly believes in double blind testing.

CECE
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You confuse preJUdices with experiences and knowledge. Some things are known, so why bother trying to either dis prove or have an empty, ooops "open" mind. Larger guage wires carry more current, no reason to try and think about it, that if you use 24guage wire to carry 10A of current it ain't gonna work, saem as if you try to fill a room with some nice detailed bass at realistic levels an 8" woofer ain't gonna do it, nor will 3 watts of available power. Somethings are plainly written, there is no reason to keep an empty, i mean open mind about it. That's where experience comes into play, it saves a lot of wasted time in experimenting on things that are already known. Which is why an experinced car mechanic or electronics tech, can fix things fast and simple, they already KNOW from experience, what is bad or causing teh problems. Experience is more important than an "open" mind. When you get sick, hope your doctor has experience, so he can help ya in teh first visit, hope he doesn't have an open mind and starts from the zero base, and makes you come back 10 times as he experiments on ya, with his empty, I mean open mind. Expericne and logic is teh root of all things done right Closed minds work better, since they are closed with some knowledge and experience, not loose open minded nonsense.

Jan Vigne
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dup, you are a paradox! You confuse knowledge with knowing something. Just because you know a fact doesn't mean you understand it's implications. Just because you can quote a fact doesn't mean you can ignore it's relevance to the real world. When it's convenient for you to rely on studio practices to prove cable elevators are seldom found in a recording booth, you use that information without any consideration for why that might be the case. Yet, you then turn around and ignore the common practices of a studio when it doesn't suit your case.

Can you tell us when it would be appropriate for a studio or even a "professional" installation to choose 10 A.W.G. cables for a speaker run? No one denies a 10 gauge cable can pass higher current at higher voltages and for longer periods of time than an 18 gauge cable. The question would be when is it appropriate to use a 10 guage cable in an audio installation? It would be foolish to spec such a cable when there is no need for it. Considering such a heavy guage is required to carry high current and high voltage over a long period of time or under peak draw, just when would any audio system, but particularly a home audio system, approach the conditions where such a cable would be appropriate? What voltage would be present along with what amperage to require a 10 A.W.G. cable and what continuous time or peak load conditions would necessitate such a cable? What speaker load would necessitate such high voltage/current? Please, refrain from telling us about SLAM and give some approximate numbers. I'm sure you know Ohm's Law well enough to figure this out.


Quote:
... if you try to fill a room with some nice detailed bass at realistic levels an 8" woofer ain't gonna do it, nor will 3 watts of available power.

Now that statement is either the result of ignoring facts or simply ignorance of reality and is apparently based in prejudice. There is no reason why an 8" driver cannot fill a room with detailed bass and three watts will perform quite well if the user has done their homework and provided the proper conditions to take advantage of those three watts.

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Quote:
But now I do have another prejudice. Any time I see a speaker with a stack of small woofers I think
BillB
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

I'm prejudiced against audiophiles who disparage people based on national origin.

rvance
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Great question, bertdw and good luck getting some honest, revelatory answers from our group.

My "prejudice" is that QUAD ESL 57's are among the purest iterations of the audio ideal. My goal, upon retirement is to build a well- balanced 2 channel system in a dedicated room around this model. A lot of my feelings center around the year (1975) of my QUAD epiphany and the people and friends and music of the time that reverberate today with great emotional meaning.

By extension, since I could not do justice to the QUADs at the beginning of my current audio quest many years ago, I mail-ordered a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 7.2's on the basis of their kinship to the QUAD brand. This was a shear prejudice based on pedigree and not experience, but I was richly rewarded with a speaker that completely overachieved its price and size. In my small living room they just shined!

So I've continued with this brand to my current 2 channel/multi-channel audio/home theater system of Wharfedale Pacific Evo 400's, Opus Centre and 100's for the "surround" channels (that are better suited for music than movies, as is my preference/prejudice). And a Wharfedale SW-300 sub. My consideration is also affected by economics. I know there are more accurate, more expensive speakers available, but at the excellent prices I have obtained with careful shopping I have not broken my budget and retirement account. I have money left to buy lots of music, which is the whole point (another prejudice!).

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You would appear to lack some understanding of how many ways random motion gets into the closed loop of a turntable and the affect it has on the catridge's generator.

Not at all. You are reading things into my statement that just aren't there. I said I would expect the turntables that appear to have a less sophisticated and effective suspension to be more susceptible to vibration. I even allowed for the possibility that this may not be true. The same holds true of the speakers. What subjective impressions have clouded my judgment? The fact that a speaker with fewer, larger woofers sounded better than three other speakers with more but smaller woofers? Again, my preconceptions only apply to my expectations. I always remain open to the possibility that I am wrong. Do you?

bertdw
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Thanks for your reply, rvance. I must admit I haven't thought about what I might be prejudiced for, only against. I guess moving coil cartridges, suspended subchassis turntables, and big woofers would be on my list.

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I always remain open to the possibility that I am wrong. Do you?

Why, certainly! I am always open to the idea someone else might be wrong. And, if not wrong, then misinformed. If not misinformed, then prejudiced. I see it and hear it everyday even - especially - away from this forum. My task, as I see it, is to sift through the incorrect, misinformed or simply prejudiced opinions or actions and decide what I consider to be the truth as far as I can discern. However, truth is seldom a black and white issue and most often implicates advantages and disadvantages to any decision.


Quote:
I said I would expect the turntables that appear to have a less sophisticated and effective suspension to be more susceptible to vibration.

If you eliminate the concept of effective isolation being restricted to "sophisticated" techniques, then there is room to discuss the benefits and disadvantages of various methods employed in turntable isolation. Clearly, removing the table from the same room as the speaker system would provide the table better and more effective isolation from mechanical and air borne feedback in most cases, and yet that technique is hardly "sophisticated". Mass damping, while not necessarily sophisticated, can provide better results than a suspended subchassis table in some instances. In any case the results are different and therefore might/might not play to anyone individual's preferences. That shouldn't disallow their use as a possible solution to anyone's specific requirements nor should it form a prejudice against a particular technique. Realizing there are more than a few ways to construct an audio system should be the beginning point of listening to the music which is a dynamic and ever changing lanscape. That you do not hear a particular quality as appealing right now doesn't mean you won't in five years hear the same quality as indispensible. We do not come into this world as fully formed audiophiles. If you had told me you have particular preferences in how the music is reproduced, I would have an easier time understanding that way of thinking. To be prejudiced that only a suspended subchassis turntable can effectively isolate the playback system is not, in my mind, a effective way to go about hearing more music. You are, in effect, placing the cart before the horse. You are saying only 10 A.W.G. cables are good and therefore you shouldn't concern yourself with any cable that allows for more transparency in the music unless it is 10 A.W.G.


Quote:
The same holds true of the speakers. What subjective impressions have clouded my judgment?

I don't know what subjective impressions you formed since you haven't provided sufficient information to begin to even guess why you chose the speaker you did. But I would guess your decision was based predominantly on subjective impressions and not technical measurements since two speakers systems could measure quite alike and sound quite different. I can see someone not taking to the sound of Quad ESL's at first and then coming around to understand why and how they do what they do and then deciding that is a preferrable techniquue to employ in order to obtain the results desired. I suspect that would not be based upon technical measurements since the Quads loose in some respects and win in others to dynamic drivers when considered strictly by technical measurements. Unfortunately, in my estimation, if you are prejudiced against any low frequency driver that does not have a specific or minimal Xmax, then you are going to pass by plenty of decent equipment.

I would prefer not think the other speakers' designers choices to not have the same subjective sound as the speaker you selected is not relegated to a measurement of bass extension on paper. If no one else with any degree of familiarity with live music ever chose the speakers with multiple small drivers based on their subjective merits, I would then agree with you that those particular small woofers, in this specific case, in this specific enclosure, in this specific room and powered by a specific amplifier, were not a good design choice and your decision was not based upon subjective impressions but rather on reasonable deliberation of the facts. However, I would also believe that, should the other speakers meet the approval of another reasonably well historied listener, your decision was based upon almost entirely upon subjective impressions though I cannot at this time tell you what those impressions might include.

CECE
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Ohm's law doesn't apply to AC , since you need IMPEDANCE and involved, Ohm's law merely involves straight D.C. paramteres, and simple resistance not taking into effect the Xc and Xl and freq involved. And what is the distance you speak of running wires from teh amps to the speakers?, what kind of voltage drop do you think is within spec, and what amplifier are you using, or most likely amplifiers, plural. can't spec it out without knowing what ya using, and then why would ya bother doing all that gazinta's when you are merely hooking up an 8" driver, just use some 16 guage, put the speaker about 3 feet, call it a headphone and listen, cus if ya move back, and sit in the couch, you ain't getting no slam, or realisim anyway, so the question is moot. And what type wire are you talking bout' 10 AWG in what insulation type THHN THWN,THHW, SPT-3? 60c or 75C rated insulation, or 90C since the ampactiy of the wire is directly related to it's insulation rating, not just it's wire gauge. Oh, forgot magic wires for audiophiles never seenm to use specs on it's stuff. but I digress, I'm speaking in real world installations that REQUIRE specs, and labeling requirements, such as studios that want to be able to occupy the facilty legally and have insurance in affect. 8" woofer ain't filling a room, maybe a closet or very small in your face listening, like they do in studios, when they have mini monitors for close listening, but when the listening say at Universal Studios, where Legacy designed a super system for a room holding 40 people, and they needed live event levels and with SLAM, and impact. In a 12 X 12 room 8 inches ain't gonna deliver either. You need to get out more, and hear LIVE music, next time take along a meter and see what kind of levels we be talking bout'. Try doing it at home on your single driver under powered amplifiers, and see if it sounds like it did LIVE. You confuse predjudice with experience. How do you know that if you stick your fingers in teh AC wall outlet it is gonna hurt? , if you never tried it, how do you know? Are you, predjudice, experienced, or do you just beleive what someone has told you? Why does knowledge given to you from someone elese's experience, is called educating the otehr person, but when it's involving audiophile nonsense, it's called predjudices? Like when you are told 8" ain't enough, why don't you beleive it? Or 3 watts ain't enough, beleive it grasshopper, you are being educated. Have you ever seen an x-ray beam, but how come you think it's dangerous, can cause burns etc? If you never seen it, you are just basing it on what you have been told, go and look for a beam, see what happens, see if it turns ya toasty red, maybe it's all BS? You never experienced it, how can you beleive anything you are told. Open minded or empty head, seems the same thing.

bertdw
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I tried to start a nice thread about our preconceived notions as audiophiles, and look what happened.

CECE
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But you knew that anyway, in your pre conceived predjudices

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Quote:
But you knew that anyway, in your pre conceived predjudices

LOL - Priceless!!!

Jan Vigne
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dup, you simply obfuscated the issue to say nothing. I guess you did that because there is no answer that fits a 10 guage cable into the answer. Figure out what it takes to require a 10 A.W.G. cable over a typical run in a home system. There's no need to consider insulation type and the only specification on the amplifier is any unit that can produce sufficient current and voltage to require a 10 guage cable. Give us some numbers, dup, not blahblahblah about slam. Don't "educate" with more of your useless propaganda. You stated an 8" driver cannot fill a room with bass. It can. You said three watts could not fill a room and common sense says it can. Unless you can provide proof and not just opinion about your remarks, they will remain your own prejudices and not facts.

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Quote:
I tried to start a nice thread about our preconceived notions as audiophiles, and look what happened.

I didn't mean to disappoint you, but what did you expect? I can't agree with your prejudices just because they are things you believe to be true about audio components. First, I fail to see how you can be prejudice against an inanimate object. What did it ever do to you? Second, I guess the dictionary didn't mention that prejudices are largely based on irrational reactions. Finally, being prejudiced towards big woofers is like being prejudiced towards eggs. Eggs? Why eggs? What about eggs? Eggs when? Eggs with what? Just eggs?!

cyclebrain
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

I have noticed a major prejudice here. It too involves a speaker with multiple small drivers. Bose.

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Quote:

Quote:
But now I do have another prejudice. Any time I see a speaker with a stack of small woofers I think
cyclebrain
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And despite other claims posted here, Ohms law does indeed apply to AC circuits.

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Quote:
When I sit back and look at what I have currently plugged in the house, it comes up electrostatic upstairs, Lowther full range in the middle, and Apogee ribbons down in the basement.

"Are we in Heaven?"

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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

good post, Buddha.

Jan Vigne
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I seem to recall a certain audiophile here who has a terrible prejudice in favor of whatever a dealer can get away with being good for the industry. So, I'd stop short of calling the kettle black, amigo!

That would seem to imply you believe I consider all actions a dealer takes to be "good for the industry". I don't believe you can find any particular quote from any of my posts that would actually indicate that to be true. However, since I seem to be the annointed dealer's advocate in a forum full of threads denouncing the veracity of anything posited by a dealer, manufacturer or Stereophile columnist, I will maintain my stance that you don't screw good dealers. They are good dealers because they are willing to work with you and not against you.

And I still consider a prejudice to be just what my Merriam Webster's Dictionary calls it, "a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgement." Thus a prejudice against small woofers is unreasoned since there is no particular justification for disliking all speakers that employ multiple small woofers any more than "I like eggs" provides sufficient evidence of any reasoning.

If this is just to be a thread about "I like ...", then, Buddha, at least you've provided some amount of reason for your bias. But still the order is reversed in your post. Maybe it's a small technical issue but you prefer "lack of crossover effect and areas of driver overlap, less smearing of timing cues, etc." and full range drivers, whether they be dynamic, electrostatic or planar in nature, do a good job at satisfying those preferences. That is a little more fleshed out than "I like big drivers", is it not?

CECE
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

8" is not enough. If it was the, next number wouldn't exist. 40W is not enough, if it was, then 4800 wouldn't exist. Facts, not opinons, since I know that 4800 exists and much bigger drivers exist. Therefore, I have stated FACTS not opinions. Physics dictates that small don't work. Not an opinion, facts. AND i used to use inadequete size amplifer, and undersized drivers, it didn't fill teh room to realistic satisfying, you are there potential. thusly, I gave up on small and went bigger. And since it does sound much much much better, I have proved my point. Are you really satisfied with just 8 inches. Come on, you know you want more.......

Jan Vigne
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Quote:

And despite other claims posted here, Ohms law does indeed apply to AC circuits.

Possibly I've misunderstood this all these years but is not Ohm's Law the ruling principle in audio when matching input/ouput impedance for frequency response errors and sufficient current drive? Are not all of those situations considering an AC Voltage?

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Some people are allergic to eggs, especially Green eggs and ham. Are you wearing a funny hat Dr. JV.?

Jan Vigne
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dup, even if I could actually read that post, I doubt it would make any more sense than when I can't. It does, however, indicate you have no real facts behind your assertions other than unreasoned prejudice. Why don't you take another stab at why anyone needs 10 guage cable and actually use numbers and real facts instead of just mumbo-jumbo? You avoided that question once again.

CECE
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Impedance formula and more reaticve components is for AC ckts, Ohm's law is based on simple reistance, not taking into account Xc and X L or freq. I=E/R where is the freq in the formula, or Xc or Xl? P=EI same thing, Ohm ain't finishing the issue. Since we have apparnet power and true power, now we call into effect PF, which is yet another variable in AC loads. Audio is AC, not D.C. Stick a battery on a speaker, you don't hear anything but a click or hum, Put a AC since wave pick a freq, now you hear a tone......so what is audio AC or DC? If audio is AC, how can you use a formula that just pertains to D.C.? And since teh amplifier ckts do affect which wire size should be used, to keep damping facotr where it belongs, one would need to know the amplifier specs. But of course we can also use experiences, or pre conceioved predjudices like a several hundred watta amplifier into a 4 ohm speaker, you probably would go below 16ga cord......If you have a BLOSE home entertainment 1 speaker, 3% THD 20W amplifier chip you could easily use 18 guage and be happy. This is all based on previous experiences and kNOWLEDGE, of the basics. Pre conceived things and all of that. Cus' my mind ain't open, nor empty. I actually live on pre conceived experiences, it makes my day job easier, cus' if ya seen it broke before, it's probably the similar issue on teh next broken system. Experience, pre conceived, etc. LIFE is pre conceived. Why do you think there are RULES, about why you can't do something, cus previously it was done, was a problem, so they want to stop it from happening again. Pre conception is a marvelous thing, it saves time, in not having to repeat what's already been tested and dealt with. Now back to 10 gauage, probably in most home installs, ya don't need 10ga speaker wire, cus' that's some pretty hefty stuff, and my electric clothes dryer gets pretty hot on it, I don't think any speaker is using that kind of current.

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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

OK, Dup, I'll bite. You have a certain amount of understanding with regard
to electrical engineering and can do math. Since you harp on getting concert
level sound pressure levels and headroom to sound live and real, let me ask
you this. If you have speakers that are 94db sensitive, how many watts of
power do you need to achieve peak sound pressure levels of 112db in an average size
room of say, 15 ft. x 20 ft.?

Or, are you of the opinion that not all spls are the same?

As far as prejudices are concerned, I have a whole boat load of them. When I
see a metal domed tweeter, I immediately start listening for ringing and
brightness in the upper frequencies. When I see a paper coned woofer, I
smile and have immediate expectations. I don't want to try anymore Mosfet
amplifiers. I'm prejudiced against the sound of Mosfets. Sam would describe
it as "Mosfet Mist." I'm not all that fond of the EL34 tube sound. On the other
hand, I'm predisposed to like 6L6 tubes.

Here's a slight twist to the discussion. When reviewers say a product is
slightly peaky in the upper mids, my biases interpret that to mean, "this
speaker will make your ears bleed and the paint peel from the walls of your
room." When a reviewer says that a product is "slightly rolled off" in the
treble region, my mind says, "this product is completely lacking anything
above 5K."

Somebody stop me!

cyclebrain
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Looking from an overall system viewpoint, the relatively small typical amplifier output impeadance combined with the resistence/impeadance of the speaker wire compared to the much higher speaker impeadance (usually more than a 10:1 ratio), makes the amplifier behave as an ideal voltage source. The lower one can make the source impeadance the less effect the amp will have on the speaker. Lowering the speaker wire impeadance can only be a good thing. Larger guage can only help. Sometimes may be overkill, but then better to be sure.

Monty
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You know, that makes perfect sense and I fully understand what you are
saying. But, I have a different theory only because I don't think that
audio signals and the final sound can be completely based in the
application of mathematical science as it relates to simply transferring
the juice through large enough cable. My thoughts are more along the lines
of an ideal match, much like an ideal transfer of water through a pipe
that is optimally sized to move a certain amount of gallons per minute, but
isn't larger than necessary to transfer the precise amount of water within
a precise amount of time. I admit that this isn't based on any particular
electrical principle, but it's something that stays in my mind. A bias, perhaps.

cyclebrain
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices


Quote:
You know, that makes perfect sense and I fully understand what you are
saying. But, I have a different theory only because I don't think that
audio signals and the final sound can be completely based in the
application of mathematical science as it relates to simply transferring
the juice through large enough cable. My thoughts are more along the lines
of an ideal match, much like an ideal transfer of water through a pipe
that is optimally sized to move a certain amount of gallons per minute, but
isn't larger than necessary to transfer the precise amount of water within
a precise amount of time. I admit that this isn't based on any particular
electrical principle, but it's something that stays in my mind. A bias, perhaps.


Your water correlation is just as valid as our electrical analysis. My question to you is what is your definition of "an ideal transfer of water through a pipe"? The least amount of pressure drop? The greater the diameter of the pipe the lower the pressure drop. An infinite diameter will produce zero pressure drop at all flow rates. What is the max flow rate of your water source? No reason to pipe for more than that rate. What does your load need? No need to plumb for more than that either. Make sure that you allow for dynamic changes though, not just averages.

Monty
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

I think there are audible changes that can occur based on all those requirements
that you mention that are at least in part, system dependent. Science can
provide the understanding needed to construct the components in a manner that
addresses the functionality of the desired task, but I think the audio importance
of achieving something past simply achieving functionality is far less understood
or even part of the equation for the broader scientific community in general.

We and they are not always speaking the same language and studying the same objectives.

andy19191
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Your definition of prejudice requires "the facts" to be known before prejudice can be recognised. This is going to problematic for people like audiophiles that have a belief system that is not based on something rational and where "the facts" have changed and evolved over the 30 year life of the mainstream audiophile industry. Indeed, as "the facts" have become progressively sillier not all audiophiles have felt able to hold them (what proportion of audiophiles believe in the differences of pebbles in jars, green marker pens and the like?) leading to the current situation where audiophiles have adopted a range of inconsistent conflicting "facts". What is prejudice to one audiophile may well be "a fact" to another.

If you contrast this with a system of belief based on, for example, scientific knowledge where "the facts" as related to sound and audio have been constant over the 30 years. Here it is straightforward to agree upon what is prejudice because people agree upon what are facts. This does not mean people form judgements only when in possession of all the facts which is often not practicable but there is usually a lot less emotional attachments to these "prejudices" compared with audiophiles and a willingness to listen and be guided by unknown "facts" provided by others.

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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Well that's about the size of my area, and 112dB is even loud for me, I'll take 109 And I think my speakers are like 93dB or so per watt...so I'll say without doing the gazintas, 4800 into the 4 ohm, loads the Whispers are, and since it's only there when needed, which is why it makes it real. From experience, not any ciphering, I found 500 total was not any good, around 255 p/c then I moved up to 1000 2amps biampd still, not really grabbing me, but noticable improvement...but when I went to 4 amplifiers running mono using the phase inverters, AVA ultra phase inverters (2 of em) it didn't just get louder, it got more alive, less strained, and just lifelike, and with a great realness, with no effort, and this is all on teh same speakers, so watts matter, and teh amplifers are of similar ckt design, same speed, THD, etc, as teh wattage capacity increased, so did teh realisms. When it needs some current, to control teh woofers, and mids, it's available, anything less is not doing it for me. Mfg recomended power for these things is only 300W way under powered, i heard them at a dealer, using that they sounded very limited, dry, lifeless, but i bought them anyway, cus' I knew what they needed was more POWER, sicne I had experience with previous models from teh same mfg. So my predjudice is POER, clean, fast, unlimited when needed. If you have 420 HP, it's good when needed, don't mean you use it all the time. That's why there are controls, like a water faucet. But your question still has some vairables that are not mentioned what is the room material, carpeted or hardwood floor so many variables, so more watts alwyas compensates for missed issues. I have easily clipped a 500W RMS amplifier, it took out 2 ribbon tweeters years ago....thus the revelation, I ain't got enough power to do what I need to do.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices


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The lower one can make the source impeadance the less effect the amp will have on the speaker. Lowering the speaker wire impeadance can only be a good thing. Larger guage can only help.

That would seem to be a perfectly logical conclusion - if you were listening in an anechoic chamber. The very slight frequency errors introduced by shifting from this guage cable to that guage cable are too small to be of concern in a real room with actual walls. We have another thread which argues shifts in magnetic fields within a cable or conductor are too small to be of concern when compared to the size of the signal through the cable or semiconductor. It is illogical then to suggest moving to the lower resistance cable once you've met the basic requirements of the amplifier/speaker circuit would be of value. A room with rather typical six decibel troughs and peaks would overwhelm the difference a cable would introduce in this affair. And its effect on damping factor would actually be what? What is the ideal damping factor? Are we not back to when do you "need" 10 A.W.G. cable? If ten guage is better, isn't 000 guage even better still? What marks the end point? Do we really need 1000:1 factors or is that mere hype that establishes another prejudice? Do we really need speakers that require such high damping factors that 10 A.W.G. cables would make any improvement in the amp/speaker interface?

OK, I'll admit to an audio prejudice. The idea that watts are cheap is a stupid piece of non-thinking that has led this hobby down a path away from the music instead of toward better sound quality. I am prejudiced against anyone wanting me to believe numbers are what is important in any area where sound quality and common sense should take precedence.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices


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I have easily clipped a 500W RMS amplifier, it took out 2 ribbon tweeters years ago....thus the revelation, I ain't got enough power to do what I need to do.

You need to buy more efficient speakers. Only a maniac should be clipping 500 watt amplifiers in a domestic situation when a more efficient starting point solves the problem easily and with a higher degree of fidelity to the original signal. In your example you are still burning off over 90% of your input energy as heat.


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That's why there are controls, like a water faucet.

A faucet works in conjunction with the delivery system and is not a substitute for a delivery system. When you compare a larger pipe (more efficient system) to a smaller pipe, the more efficient delivery mechanism puts out more water where it can be used when the pressure (watts) in both is equal. The faucet simply allows you to not deliver all the energy constantly when it is not "needed". That's how you should begin your thinking. If I want to water my lawn efficiently, I buy a 3/4" hose and not a 1/8" pipe. Which delivery system gives the desired results with the highest efficiency and then what does the speaker require to deliver the desired results? If you go about determining how large the pipe must be based on how much power will burst a poorly chosen delivery mechanism, you are on a steep and rather foolish learning curve toward acquired knowledge.

CECE
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

The speakers where like 93dB or so, quite efficient, a 500W amplifier is hardly a monster, and it's very easy to clip, if you want realistic levels. When a deeeep note comes along with some loud mids, it takes lotsa power to do it properly, even with 93dB 1 w speakers....I think perhaps your definition of good lifelike reproduction is not. I've heard good and very bad live sound, I know what I need to hear. The bad sounding places still sound lousy, the best sounds are still teh best, it's the guys turning the knobs, cus they all have mega watt power available, with lotsa large drivers, too bad they don't understand good defined bass, is not making everything 80Hz WHOMP in teh poor sounding places.

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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Your water pipe analogy is wrong, teh pressure is voltss teh flow is current, teh combined two are watts. You say teh faucet controls the watts, nope it controls teh flow, current. Watts would be more analogus to a filled pool of teh water, which is supplied by teh rate of flow current and the pressure behind teh flow volts. You don't always get 10 gallons a minute from a larger supply, but when you need it it's available. Like in an amplifier, it's not always putting out 10 amperes, when needed it can, it's a controlled power supply. When you try putting out a building fire with a 5/8 garden hose, when you need flow from a 3" hose, your supply better have teh pressure to beable to supply the quantity of flow to fill the hose, thus a large amplifier which is just a big power supply, it works much better. Small amplifiers are never better for better sound, never, only told by companies that make underpowered stuff.

CECE
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

I would also contend my electrical/ electronics knowledge and audio in general is many steps above your's. My learning slop/curve started a long long time ago, and wasn't just from reading magazine reviews.

Monty
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Well, Dup, I'm trying to figure out the scientific method of achieving
112db peaks with 94db speakers. Naturally, believing in the scientific and
engineering method of achieving this, as you do; certainly anything else
is just voodoo delusions, how many watts do I need?

You aren't suggesting that the scientifically engineered method of achieving
this doesn't apply are you?

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Re: Audiophile Prejudices


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My learning slop/curve started a long long time ago, and wasn't just from reading magazine reviews.

dup, I never argued your learning slop wasn't higher and more mired in the ancient past than mine.


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Your water pipe analogy is wrong, teh pressure is voltss teh flow is current, teh combined two are watts. You say teh faucet controls the watts, nope it controls teh flow, current.

My analogy is correct as it stands. A more efficient delivery system is how you get more water out of the pipe. You can talk all you want about how the flow is current - and I do understand that, dup - but your anaolgy doesn't consider the load. In other words you've ignored the operating system and thought only about the watts. And that's my point. Start thinking about what delivers the goods and what is required to get the end result you desire. Your analogy is a crude way to discuss current and voltage in simple terms. I wasn't discussing voltage or current, I was discussing the hose. More efficient hose = more water at the same pressure. You've got your head wrapped around cheap watts. Man, that's ancient technology! Yeah, 93dB is above average sensitivity - if you're sensible enough to listen at realistic levels. Anybody who thinks it takes 5k watts to get a speaker going isn't sensible. You certainly understand math well enough to understand that if you start 10dB higher with the speaker's sensitivity, you'll need less power. Where's all that power going in your system dup? It's all wasted. 5k watts just to sound "relaxed"?! C'mon, dup, you can figure this one out. You don't need 500 H.P. to drive to the store either.


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Small amplifiers are never better for better sound, never, only told by companies that make underpowered stuff.

You are welcome to your own prejudice in this matter but you are wrong. You're going to need more output devices or you'll need to run them closer to their limits to get higher power and that's not good for sound quality. Here's what Nelson Pass has to say about "Killowatts vs. Milliwatts". "It's 'common knowledge' in audio. Big power amplifiers don't sound as good at low levels as small amplifiers do." Now I think Pass can build a great high power amplifier but he likes to design ten watt amplifiers and he sells those before he even has them built. So, dup, unless you want to claim more audio knowledge than Nelson Pass, I think you might want to reconsider your prejudices.

"The next time someone tells me that they know that the realistic reproduction of music in the home requires 1) 24-bit/192kHz (or whatever), 2) perfectly flat frequency response, 3) bass down to 20Hz, 4) 5.1 channels

Buddha
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

OK, I think I

Buddha
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Oh, man, I forgot one!

I have a prejudice that thinks a larger diameter woofer that needs to use less excursion to make sound will sound better and faster than little ones that need more excursion to make the same sound.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices


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I have a prejudice that thinks a larger diameter woofer that needs to use less excursion to make sound will sound better and faster than little ones that need more excursion to make the same sound.

"Faster" is not directly related to the driver's diameter.

Now, define your prejudice and explain what "sounds better". Does a 12" driver "sound better" than a 6" driver when both low frequency units are crossed at 2.5 kHz to 3/4" mid/high frequency driver with a first order filter both ways? Why?

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Re: Audiophile Prejudices


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(Same goes for cars
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices


Quote:

Quote:
I have a prejudice that thinks a larger diameter woofer that needs to use less excursion to make sound will sound better and faster than little ones that need more excursion to make the same sound.

"Faster" is not directly related to the driver's diameter.

Now, define your prejudice and explain what "sounds better". Does a 12" driver "sound better" than a 6" driver when both low frequency units are crossed at 2.5 kHz to 3/4" mid/high frequency driver with a first order filter both ways? Why?

Perfect!

Thank you.

If you need me, I'll be over at Mary Ann and Ginger's hut.

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If you need me, I'll be over at Mary Ann and Ginger's hut.

Smoking some pot I assume.

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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

You mean you don't need 1600 watts times 4 to reach "real and live" sound
with your speakers in your room? Watts is where it's at, man. The more the
better and you can never have too many to sound real. Pro gear doesn't use
8 watts amplifiers! And these guys know about real world sound! Not some
hokey pokey, voodoo magic wires and would blocks!

"Last Watt" would make a good name for an audio company. "We bleed 'em dry
to wring out the whole kit and kaboodle." Better yet, "You paid for all these
watts, we want to make sure you get to use every last one."

CECE
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

That's AD's pre conceived predjudices. And Nelson Pass is hardly teh final word on amplifiers, he has his pre concevied predjudices, and that is what he uses to market his stuff....If you want to use headphones, work in the milliwatt range....the idea that the first miliwatt is where the sound is, is all BS. So all high powered, high current capacity amplifiers sound bad... That's some preconceived bunch of nonsense. A few milliwatts ain't making any speaker sound realistic, unless you are hearing impaired, and maybe don't really know what you are missing. I would still like to have hearing tests posted along side the reviewers results of how they think something sounds, similar to a calibrated test meter...cus' maybe there hearing is way out of wack? Now let me go figure out the minimum wattage you need to get to 112dB, but once you get there it taks a lot more to then make it REAL....that seems to be a concept you can't grasp

Monty
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

So what are those other, unused watts doing while the worker watts are
making amplification, smoking cigarettes and watching Captain Kangaroo?

bifcake
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Re: Audiophile Prejudices

Buddha,

I'm with you on all of your prejudicial points. I think you know where it's at and it's definitely at Ginger's and Marianne's hut 40 years ago. (I don't think it's still there today)

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