Neat!

I really want to like Analysis Plus interconnects and cables and powered various pairs of about a month some time ago. They didn't work for me, even when I was biased in their favor.

But they are obviously working wonderfully well for you. Your dealer knows his stuff.

I did not think I would actually find someone who did what I did i.e move from Kimber (4TC in my case) to these cables.
Other than the hit on the wallet I too have no regrets whatsoever.

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Which A-P speaker cables did you try and what did you end up with, if you don't mind me asking? What was the biggest difference between the A-Ps and what you ended up with?

They were the Solo Crystal, $2k+ for the pair. They had a bright sibilant sort of sound in my system. Later on (after trying numerous others) I tried a set of PS Audio xStream bi-wire. These are the ones that I kept. They have a nice clear transparent sound.

I don't like that cables can sound different. To me, they should simply transmit the signal, unchanged, to the speakers. My head insists that once a basic level of electrical competency is met cables would render no further improvement. My ears insist otherwise. ARGH!

The Korg unit is astounding for the money. I love that it even has battery operated phantom powered XLR inputs for a pair of mics.

How long does it take to convert a DSD file to 24/96 using AudioGate? (I downloaded the program from Korg, not knowing that you need to connect a MR1000 to your computer to unlock the program. Oh well . . .) I have DiskWelder Bronze - it takes a very long time to convert DSD files to PCM. Hours for a 30 minute stereo file. I had hoped that AudiGate was open and performed the task much quicker.

As a point of interest - and paralleling the "you are from where?" thread - Analysis Plus are headquartered on Main St. in my hometown of Flushing, MI.
Pretty cool.

Dave,
I have a Bryston 4BSST and Thiel 2.4s.

NUTS! I really hoped that Audiogate was quicker.

Recording in DSD and high resolution PCM is indeed amazing.

I use a Tascam DVD RA1000 for location recording. Sometimes I record in DSD or 24/176 just because it sounds so good on playback. Of course it needs to be downconverted for anyone else to listen to it.

DiscWelder Bronze works for me and the DVD-As I burn work on all players on which I and others have tried them. It is well worth $100.

Have you tried recording a brass quintet yet? I find this devilishly hard. The dynamic range is not a problem (amazing!) with 24 bit resolution. However, getting the timbre and balance right is quite a challenge, despite having good mics and a good mic pre. I am certain part of this is that I know what brass should sound like.

Also fascinating is recording piano. I would never have imagined all the different ways to record piano and the resulting differences in sound. I have a nice grand piano, recently tuned and serviced, and yet recording the piano reveals every little fault in piano preparation. Now I really understand why high-end studios put so much time and money into their pianos.

I am really pleased that the Analysis Plus cables are working for you. They have worked very hard on them (and are great to talk to by the way). As you point out, even cables are system dependent. I continue to maintain that electricity is weird.

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Of course, now I couldn't live with the Kimbers, after hearing the difference.

Can you really put a value on this? I could not.
If you have the means you should not either, unless that money is better spent elsewhere on your system or the house, the wife, the kids etc.

Thanks for the update. Interesting stuff.

You sure are having fun!

my theory for what it's worth is that some cable may sound better than others because it more closely matches the wiring the speaker maker used. i have seen some reviews where the maker wanted the reviewer to use a specific cable or even provided that cable. of course it will also have to do with how the cable interacts with the amp as well. in my experience, the difference between cable i was using for my old speakers that i had to use on the new ones for a bit and the nordost the dealer recommended for my new speakers was astounding. i would have returned the speakers if i had to have kept using that cable. it was like the post in analog where the poster said it was like has speakers were vieled. a good experienced dealer should have a good idea of what works better from their own trial and error and they should also be getting this info from the speaker maker who should have tried different cables during testing and would be in a position to recommend better matches. also, a very experienced audiophile with the same system might also have good info.

tom

True enough. Once you get to that area in crossover design in the more rarefied speakers where one is trading off 0.25db differences in signal matching levels between drivers, you can get into subtle transient/phase agreeance issues between drivers which can really change the subjective understanding of the 'balance' of the speaker as a whole system.

This translates to a situation where one speaker cable can easily be preferred over another, due to the subtleties involved-and their sensitivity to external influence, ie, cables and equipment. The crossover set up/execution 'delicacy' at such level and the discernment of the given buyer/listener is the core of the issue, with respects to achieving a balance the buyer/listener prefers.

There is no reason that such cannot happen with a given inexpensive speaker, but it tends to happen more often at the top of the market.

Great news!

And weird. It still bugs me that wire can and does sound different.

But it also bugs me that Adam Andretti was able to consistently achieve greater sustained g-forces in my car than I under identical conditions on the same day. One would think that the car itself would alone dictate the result of this objective measurement: g-force is g-force, right? Nope.

BTW, Dave, got a great Easter gig lined up? I am at a wonderful old church with a great organ and an excellent organist and music director. I have no idea yet what I am playing but will find out this Saturday when we get together and rehearse. It will be fun!

If there is a hell and I'm destined to spend all eternity there,
I will be condemned to breaking-in audio cables forever.

Kidding aside, the most interesting aspect of cable break-in to me
is having the cable improve for a bit, only to retreat back to where
it was many hours before and then repeat the process a few times until
it finally stabilizes. You have no stage, no bass, no highs and then
you have great bass, then no bass again and then it shows up again even
better.

My experience is much like yours. There seems to be a point around the
100 hour mark where the bass finally settles in, but the focus drifts
in and out until it finally settles down. Focus seems to be the final
stage when you know you've pretty well flushed out the cable's character.

I once became extremely frustrated breaking-in new cables because they
were taking forever. I knew what the final sound would be because I had
auditioned well used cables before buying new. After all but giving up
on the new ones, I decided to disconnect them from the amp and reconnect
them. Perhaps it was a coincidence, but the cables jumped ahead within
an hour or so and quickly progressed to stabilization. It's almost like
they had reached a plateau and needed to take a step back to push through.

I'm the first to admit this is strange stuff, but it is what it is.

Glad you like your new cables. Gear changes always leave me liking some
things better and some things not as much. Cables are no different.

Hamilton, driving a stock Civic on my local track, would soon lap me in my Z06. And I would love the experience.

The local Ferrari club flew in Derek Bell (five times le Mans winner, F1 driver) for a club event. I asked him to ride with me and to drive my Z06. What he can do with a car is astounding. I was particularly annoyed with his beautifully synced heel/toe downshifts from around 135 mph down to ~20 mph for a 110 degree corner. I brake and grab second, with one heel/toe for this corner. He tracks each gear while threshold braking, "in case someone tries to pass and I need to get on the throttle". Amazing.

The simile between an experienced listener and an experienced driver is excellent. In both cases the average person thinks they are competent; e.g., everyone believes they are a better driver than the average person. They have no idea how wrong they are. This is exactly the same with listening to audio - even just an enthusiast, let alone as a mastering engineer, hears more than the average person. Experience, practice and knowledge makes a tremendous difference.

Exactly!

My best example is a student two years ago, a 25 year old woman in a Dodge Neon SRT-4, who on her second lap smoked a guy with many laps experience in a Ford GT, requiring him to let her pass. I attribute this to superior instruction, of course.

Even more amazing, he was so frustrated that when she came to see his car in the cold pits, near drooling and to ask for a ride, he wouldn't acknowledge her. Straight, single guy - refuses to talk to cute, young, single female because she can drive.

Back to the cables: you have been so pleased with these that I am tempted to seek out an exceedingly well broken-in set and to give them another try. Perhaps I was wrong the first time.

i agree with used and especially demo if available. i bought a pair of nordost 4 metres that normally retailed for $800 for $200. they were already broken in, but like you, at the time, thought that seemed too long. it has actually turned out to be a good thing as i have used the entire run in a previous setup. i think it is pretty hard to abuse cables, so they should be in good shape used.

tom

Quote:
Hamilton, driving a stock Civic on my local track, would soon lap me in my Z06. And I would love the experience.

The local Ferrari club flew in Derek Bell (five times le Mans winner, F1 driver) for a club event. I asked him to ride with me and to drive my Z06. What he can do with a car is astounding. I was particularly annoyed with his beautifully synced heel/toe downshifts from around 135 mph down to ~20 mph for a 110 degree corner. I brake and grab second, with one heel/toe for this corner. He tracks each gear while threshold braking, "in case someone tries to pass and I need to get on the throttle". Amazing.

The simile between an experienced listener and an experienced driver is excellent. In both cases the average person thinks they are competent; e.g., everyone believes they are a better driver than the average person. They have no idea how wrong they are. This is exactly the same with listening to audio - even just an enthusiast, let alone as a mastering engineer, hears more than the average person. Experience, practice and knowledge makes a tremendous difference.

I redesigned my air intakes ('velocity stacks') on my car, and now I have about a 1/2-1/4 second jump on other cars when it comes to the development of torque and rpm, thus..acceleration.

I don't know exactly what to do with the innovation, as it's a bit more valuable than the standard audiophile 'innovation'.

I've been sitting on it now, for two years. I dunno what to do with the dang thing.

Quote:
Exactly!

My best example is a student two years ago, a 25 year old woman in a Dodge Neon SRT-4, who on her second lap smoked a guy with many laps experience in a Ford GT, requiring him to let her pass. I attribute this to superior instruction, of course.

Even more amazing, he was so frustrated that when she came to see his car in the cold pits, near drooling and to ask for a ride, he wouldn't acknowledge her. Straight, single guy - refuses to talk to cute, young, single female because she can drive.

Oh man, I'd be so in love 'at first sight'. Baby, you drive stick? Awesome. Let's get married.

I bought the ultimate 'Q' ship:

http://www.k-bikes.com/pp/data/504/3368DSCN5182_web-med.jpg

Not my exact car, bu the colour is the same. Anthracite. Impossible to tell what colour the car is, at times. Especially at night. And people never see it.

You never saw me, I was never here. People can variously think the car is brown, grey, blue, green, black'ish', etc. Plus, I pulled the logos off. It's just a car. But it goes like stink, and in style. That flat torque and HP curve is mind bogglng, if you've never driven a car with that aspect. No real HP or Torque 'peak' to worry about. Just get on it at any RPM..and it goes. I tend to fix my own cars and that (variable-turning cams) mess is horribly complex, but at least it 'seems' (8 years into the model) to have a low failure rate.

Quote:
KBK, which model is that? I'm thinking of an M3 or M5, but that color could be critical in my decision process. I like having a back seat in emergency, but the ZO6 sure has it all (performance wise) in an affordable package.

Dave

E39 M5. Knowing the car from front to back, and how to assess one is critical in any attempt of an M5 purchase. Experts or expertise is required to make a decent purchase. Someone who knows cars, is not the way to go. Specific E39 M5 experts are required. It's the only way to know the difference between a trashed E39 M5... and a good one.

This is what I tell folks: "190 Mph, 1g in the corners, the biggest rotors available on any production car when introduced....and..3 baby seats across the back!

And a friend of mine who was/is an emergency services worker on a major crash spot in a city of 500k with two busy and thriving BMW dealerships says: "Good choice. In over 17 years of pulling people out of cars with the jaws of death on that 8 lane wide stretch (4 per side) under the most horrific weather and conditions known to man... I've NEVER had to pull a single person out of a BMW with the Jaws, and no one has ever died in one. The doors almost always open."

The real tale on that one, is that in Germany, the cars are sometimes sold back to the original owner, after they've flipped it and blown to all to pieces on the autobahn.

They sell it at the German version of the autotrader, 'mobile.de' they show cars with a standard set of photos. The standard set includes a front shot, a side shot, a rear shot, a side/front angle shot..and a open drivers door interior shot.

Sometimes you are looking at a mangled mess so bad, you have no idea it is a BMW. Until they show you the interior shot.

With the open door!

Awesome.

I have no intention of dying in my car, so a car that may not be so high on standardized testing..but in the 'real world' has a HISTORY of keeping people alive..I'll go for that, for sure.

E39 M5 owners search around, and search around,and search around..trying like hell to get a better, more overall balanced and capable 'car'. They simply can't find one.

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KBK, which model is that? I'm thinking of an M3 or M5, but that color could be critical in my decision process. I like having a back seat in emergency, but the ZO6 sure has it all (performance wise) in an affordable package.

Dave

But for having only two seats my brother would have purchased a Z06 after driving mine. Instead, he bought an M3 SMG. He brings it to the track for open lapping and it performs exceedingly well. Great car.

His is Carbon Black (think carbon paper, looks both black and a very dark blue depending on light). The Anthracite paint is fun also.

The only thing bad is that the M3 weighs ~3,700+ lbs and one is well aware of this when transitioning from corner to corner. All that weight detracts from its performance. This is my only criticism of the M5 as well. At two tons+ the M5 is hardly lithe. But on the up side they are quiet, smooth, exceedingly comfortable and very safe.

The BMW groups are full of great people and knowledgeable. Excellent club events - and not nearly as anal as the Audi guys (Do we really need to sweep the track before we go out? It's a lap timer already - and it's hard-mounted. Who cares if lunch is eight minutes late.) <sheesh>

KBK, if your intake mod actually works you would have zero difficulty licensing and selling it. Air box and intake mods are the most popular home-garage mods and they sell like mad. Go for it.

Power is addictive, indeed. Unless you have decided to get one, don't look at what Z06's actually dyno. It isn't just 505 bhp as advertised.

But then there is the bother of dealing with 20 brake pads whenever doing the brakes.

Both the RX8 (I bought one of the first ones that came into the country) and the S2000 reward competent drivers. They are a great way to find out what bad habits you have.

Hi KBK- I'm a little confused about the "variable turning cams.' I've heard of variable timing that changes the cam duration/overlap events for a flatter torque curve. Is it similar?

All this car talk has me jealous. The vehicles in this thread rate in the "dream" class for me. I do appreciate dc elevating the art in a "fitty." I've kept my '89 5.0 absolutely cherry for 160k. It's a crude beast, but a nice little torque pig.

Great setup!

The 5.0 Mustangs are fun cars and there is lots of knowledge out there on how to properly sort them out. The solid rear axle is a challenge on a road course or in AX, but this is part of what demonstrates a skilled driver. Excellent bang/buck.

Dave, I also don't dragrace except on rare occasion as a fun event sort of thing. I can't get myself to power shift a perfectly good manual tranny.

Plus, I am terrible at a drag course.

Take my time, subtract a good second or second and a half, and you get an idea of what my car can do. The track workers and other participants always see coaching me as an important project after seeing the high trap speed but bad time. They have this mistaken belief that I can be redeemed.

You two guys need to get a room.

But then I couldn't explain trail-braking and why I never let a beginner on a roadcourse even think about trying it, especially in a front-wheel drive car. ("Let's see...I'll put the silver car in the corner inner pocket...")

I could also explain one of the reasons that an Audi A4 or an A6 (etc.) falls behind a BMW or an Infiniti G-35 at the first corner even if the Audi has more power.

But we did digress.

And I have no clue if changing out the cables in my in-car intercom would improve the sound.

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Hi KBK- I'm a little confused about the "variable turning cams.' I've heard of variable timing that changes the cam duration/overlap events for a flatter torque curve. Is it similar?

All this car talk has me jealous. The vehicles in this thread rate in the "dream" class for me. I do appreciate dc elevating the art in a "fitty." I've kept my '89 5.0 absolutely cherry for 160k. It's a crude beast, but a nice little torque pig.

The e39 M5 has the first running example of a 'dual Vanos' or dual variable cams.

This means that each intake and exhast cam actually are altered in their rotational position for timing issues, throughout the RPM range.

What this does, is it give the S62 5 liter v-8 motor a minimum of 85% of it's 400 ft-lb's of torque..from 1800 rpm to 7000 rpm. That's nearly stump pulling torque, but not quite...but it's all at an even pace throughout any throttle position. the HP curve is nearly a perfect ramp up to the 7000 rpm redline. The motor has 8 individual butterflies, and velocity stacks, etc. All in all a nice piece of work, both mechanically and visually. Peeing and dumping in your pants as your innards have gone liquefied happens if the motor somehow becomes damaged. The original BMW price (new-short block replacement) per motor comes in at a hefty $25k.

Elk: I redesigned the velocity stacks. They near instantaneous response now, about 1/4 to 1/2 second faster, and more 'snap' when you tap the throttle. The car is now almost too ridiculously sensitive to how you ride the accelerator.

I figured that this was a key point in normally aspirated racing, and may be useful elsewhere.

First I need to get someone else, someone serious (who knows the market and how to approach it), into the whole thing..as..as far as I can tell..this is the first serious change in this thinking (velocity stacks) in about 50 years.

Variable RPM cams are neat, there are a good number of car engines with them. Very clever.

KBK, your mod sounds great - anything that helps deliver power more quickly is great stuff!

Variable cams? Do you guys mean variable timing? The cams themselves don't
actually do anything do they?

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Variable cams? Do you guys mean variable timing? The cams themselves don't
actually do anything do they?

The 'vanos' system on BMW motors (usually just the M series of vehicles) is a hydraulically activated system, at 1500+ psi, where the cams themselves are turned (via gears) by this pressured pump system, each and every time the engine rpm changes. Thus the near flat full bore 'torque curve', or in this case 'torque line'.

Unsurprisingly, the M series motors, when they fail, within those failure #'s..there is a notably high number of journal bearing failures. This is due to the low rpm 'slamming' (resonance) of the crank bearings (the journal bearings) at the low rpm range, due to this very high torque at the low rpm. Spec'ing a 5 liter engine with a 7k redline, is also a cause of failure, as the story goes that due to the crank surface area on a average 5 liter motor, the amount of metal passing by a given oiled crank bearing area..the oil cannot maintain a film above approximately 6k rpm. Thus, I try to never get close to the 7k rpm redline, as each time increases the wear to some degree. This is why small motors have such high rpm limits, its the smaller circumferential areas of the crank bearings. Like measuring your waist, you measure the crank size and area, and that dictates to a large degree, the limit in RPM for that engine. It's a lubricity issue.

I know of one guy who blew his M5 S62 motor within about week of owning the M5. He decided to engage in some engine braking while speeding on the highway, due to some debris he saw, he says. Or maybe the 6 gear gate was still fooling him a bit. All in all, the ECU (engine control unit) showed the sad tale. The motor had spent just over 30 seconds at 12,000+ rpm...lost all crankshaft lubricity.... seized solid after turning cherry red...and it blew the crank right out of the bottom of the block. Cost him about $15,000 at the time to fix it. Used BMW S62 motors are rare-and $dear$.

Elk: I just haven't remembered to do anything with this particular item-it's under the hood-I never see it. There is also another reason for my seeming procrastination (It's been under the hood for nearly 2 years).

It's patentable..and there are aspects of it's design that cut across multiple fields of endeavor, at the least. Ie, automotive areas are only one application. The idea 'goes places'.

It was braking via engine was the problem, the limiter does nothing at that point. It was cutting out all it could, except the foolish driver with the clutch still engaged.

Goodbye motor!

You'd have to look at the 8400 rpm, and then check it against the crank size. Ask the guys on the M3 forum(s). They'll know. Maybe. Usually there's a race mechanic or two on the boards who can fill in the blanks on that one.

The system (ECU) also has a full permanent record of every single second the engine spends above certain rpm points. This tells the BMW folks the level of abuse the given motor has gone through.

If the M3 is used, get that history report!!!!!

Between the E39 and the E46 M cars, meaning the M3 and the M5, the M5 is the faster car. Seriously. BMW fudged the numbers to keep the coupe ahead of the 4-door sedan.

The very vast majority of the E39 M5's will clock a 12.6-12.7 Quarter, and pull away from the M3 at above about 75-80 mph.

You will also quickly find hitting the redline to be useless, at best. This is in all cars, generally. It may be an expressed limit, but it is generally just a useless number. The power range in a BMW shift point-and range of acceleration in the given gear, is usually found by shifting at about 1000 rpm lower than the red line.

Guys have had their redline cut out points artificially lifted via ECU flashing, but that's risky at best. Due to what a wise race mechanic told me, I now have no desire to have my rev limit lifted.

I want the car to last, not blow up in a period of 5-10 track days. BMW is fairly conservative in their ratings, but the crank journal/speed vs area/lubricity issue is the hard physics part that no one can escape. So far.

I love the hardcore odd fact that there is no oil pressure gauge in an M5 or M3. The pressure is the pressure. What we get is a useful oil TEMP gauge.