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So what? Former's TAS editor Harry Pearson vinyl collection was destroyed ten years ago in a fire and listen mostly to CDs now. Robert Harley curent editor is a former CD mastering engineer.. Stereophile has always been pro-CD and SACD except for the clown MF that they brought in to drum up some vinyl customers and subscriptions.. The thing is old vinyl timers with a sizable vinyl collection now listen to CD and high resolution CD and stare most of the time at their turntables, unable to use them!
Is "grosse fatigue" French for "DUP?"
Since HP's LP's were lost in a fire, vinyl has lost its standing in the Hi Fi pantheon?
I guess nature abhors a vacuum.
hi hi! The question you should be asking yourself is: why is he not replacing his vinyls with vinyls?? Does it make sense today in 2008.. to start collecting vinyls and buy a new turntable. The answer is no.
Why such distaste for LP's? They are simply an alternative storage medium.
Some people prefer them for their sound. Some enjoy the ritual of taking an LP out of its jacket and the physicality of placing the stylus on the lean in groove. Some relish the memory of having played the same record many times and reminiscing as part of listening.
Others delight in a fully computerized music server with no physical medium to be seen and are delighted not to have to hunt though even tidy little jewel cases.
Why does one have to be right and the other wrong?
If you hate LP's, I am certain their are many who would be happy to relieve you of your storage anxiety.
But why campaign against LP's?
I don't care for dogs, but I certainly am not going to go out of my way to disparage canines and insult those of you that enjoy them.
Then again, what was that dog enthusiast site? I am sure they would love hearing from me.
I think that vinyl demands much from the user, not just the ritual of preparing a record for play, but the selection and maintenance of records vs. CDs is much riskier. With CD it's very easy to reach an "acceptable" level of fidelity. With vinyl, you could send several thousand on a very good TT/cartridge/pre-amp and still blow it all with poor vinyl.
Most people haven't heard the hardness in CDs vs. analog and until they do, they probably will never consider vinyl, unless they've got a collection left over from the old days.
I've got a great collection which I'm rapidly supplementing with wonderful new offerings. Daunting to someone with a smaller budget is the fact that the average new record costs almost $30, with many coming in at $50 and few under $25.
My wife, a very "shallow" person when it comes to vinyl, complains that the stylus clicks at the end of the record if I don't get up to lift it quick enough. If I don't lower it gently enough into the leadin groove and it jumps a track, she'll get upset. It doesn't matter if the whole remainder of the record is totally silent, she'll say, "I can't stand that noise." Those are rediculously weak points against vinyl in my view, BUT that's what some people hear.
The person that's heard the problems with average CD players and gone on to higher end machines are likely candidates for vinyl. People with large collections of vinyl in good condition are also candidates. (I'm so glad that I took care of my old records, because 90+% still sound fantastic today). Otherwise, I'm reluctant to recommend it to anyone. People are amazed to hear vinyl on my system, but for someone to start at scratch I think it's pretty daunting.
Dave
This is an amazing turnabout. Several years ago in Stereo Review, Ken Pohlmann wrote a bitingly sarcastic diatribe against analog, vinyl and the idiots who clung to their ancient mythology. I wrote a letter saying his epic combover was more delusional than any loyalty to analog and vinyl. They didn't print that.
They are just padding. They have to print something. It reminds me of THX applied to surround sound 10 years ago with small dinky speakers at the center and in the rear. They new it was bad but they recommended it anyhow. You could never read anywhere that THX was stupid. Also the recent JVC digital tape fiasco pushed by Widesreen Review; the hardware was not even working. WR never mentionned any problem with the hardware. One could argue that some magazines like Stereophile pushed SACD so much that it was detrimental to CD, like Martin Colloms wrote in Hi-Fi News at the time. CD manufacturers stopped selling CD players overnight. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot! People unloaded their CD players on Audiogon. CD was dead, long live to... Vinyl, I guess!
It makes sense if you like the sound of vinyl and the ritual of playing it.
You can easily find old vinyl for a few bucks a pop , clean it and it sounds great. And it is fun to search.
I am not interested in trying to determine which is" better". I would rather appreciate the differences between the two.
I also have my CD's on a server and use Transporter for playback. Some argue that is inherently superior to a CDP.
My CDP is now in my closet but my TT still gets a spin around the holidays.
i have and appreciate both mediums. i will play a cd for background music and sometimes for serious listening if it is a good one (there are such things) and i don't have a copy on LP. i have very few overlaps, most of my recent music purchases have been LPs that i always wanted or good will purchases of LPs. anyway, there are times i just don't want the involvement it takes to play an LP. i use a record when i really want to get into the music. along with all of the effort to play, i will move my speakers out from their temporary covies into a good position in the room and move my chair. when i am in that mood, i love the activities of playing an LP and of course the sound. i also find that getting up every 20 min or so is good for the circulation and having less tracks before changing gets me into the music more because after a few plays, i know what is coming up and get to know the tune better. not to mention the bonus of going to a used record store or even good will and coming up with a gem, especially if it is 99cents or so. many of these records were kept by old folks and were dontated from their estates and can be very clean with good fidelity. to the good will folks, a record is a record even if it says "living stereo" on the front and even if it is a classic.
this is like my motorcycle hobby, i have a bmw for touring and a harley just for cruising. bmw is precise and analytical like a CD, harley is like old blues on a scratchy LP. i like them both.
tom
I think one of the reasons we may tend to find vinyl more involving is the ritual necessary to play a record. It takes more attention and intention and therefore we are more focused and attentive when we listen.
The very preparation it requires usually means we are in a serious listening mood.
I think a great deal of how much we get out of a listening session is do more to our state of mind than the medium or the gear.
Absolutely!
I can't wait until my turntable fund bears fruit.
Remove the inner sleeve from the outer sleeve, slide the record into your hand, set it on the platter, cue it up, lower the arm...
It's magical to me.
I think there's also the element of the "bits and pieces" making the music being all exposed. When you put a CD in the player, you know in principle what is happening inside, but a turntable is a show; You get to watch the stylus actually tracking in the groove.
I dig it.
Yup yup yup!
I know the ritual makes tea taste better!
Yup Yup Yup ?
you know, Buddha, if you change one letter...............................
are you a secret supporter?
I'd give up records in a heartbeat: If I could find something with better fidelity; or with more software available.
Specifically, the first point places it as the 'still unassailable king of reproduction'.
My next attempt to 'get close', is to modify the living crap (beat it with as big a stick as is humanly possible, ie, throw everything I have into it) out of a already top-flite DVD-A player..and then do the same to a 192khz/24 2-channel recorder.
Then transfer many an LP to high bit (192/24) rate unlocked DVD-A format disc. Maybe I'll be satisfied with that for a while. Here's to hoping!
I don't like Harleys and the guys who drive them today but the analogy with turntables is almost accurate! Today they are often driven by old fat brainless (not all) people. The last time I was excited by a bike was by a Honda Magna on which you seat like on a horse. I absolutely love that motorcycle. Today I hate motorcycles looking like Harleys. I really do because , like TTs, they don't make any sense. It is just for show off. The noise of those Magnas coming out of their pipes was unbelievable, exhilarating. I can't stand that fat stupid noise coming out of those Harleys. (Fellini made fun of them in Amarcord with the village idiot driving such a noisy motorcycle at midnight throughout town).
All of this TT talk encouraged me to pull out some LP's. I am playing some old time-worn friends. Even with the noise from previous dreadful turntables, the sound is wonderful.
And it is soothing to pull an LP from it's sleeve and gently place it on the platter.
Contented Elk.
(I need to learn how to purr.)
I really like how this thread has ended up as an endorsement for turntables and records...
I agree that most of the good things in life take time, require some attention and devotion. A relationship, good food, your kids, learning something new, music, a good book, mountain climbing; the list would include practically everything deeply enjoyable. Rarely is convenience for it's own sake coupled with lasting value.
my french friend: what you say about riders of harleys may be true in france, but in the usa, about 300,000+ are sold every year to folks of all IQ levels and body types with many different reasons for buying them. it is interesting how you tend to prejudge people and have such black and white opinions. are you in your early 20s by any chance? when i was very young, i too clung tenatiously to my opinions and thought i knew everything. of course now, i am old and dumb (and like vinyl...and harleys).
caio
tom
As Dylan said,
"I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now"
nice post, TC
[quot].. of course now, i am old and dumb (and like vinyl...and harleys).
caio tom
Look, 50% of Americans voted for GW, 50% are dumb and half educated. You are not alone
This is how you got yourself where you are in the automobile industry, building the same cars over and over again while the Japanese and the europeans built new cars. A Harley was fine when James Dean and Marlon Brando were riding one. Today a Harley is just nostalgia. Why are you calling everything French this or Euro that in this country when you want the best? I grew up in Europe and Asia and Africa and South America and in those days the best was american everywhere. In Africa I had one of those big multiband Zenith portable radio. The fridge was a Frigidaire. Room air conditioners were all americans. Kitchen appliances were all americans. My father was driving an american car. The stereo was american. My first girl friend Cookie was american
How long are you planning to make those same Harleys over and over again??
harleys are like vinyl, if i have to explain, you wouldn't understand. i won't bore our audio friends with the details, that's not what they came here for. bye the way, how is that french motorcycle industry doing these days?
tom
hi!hi! You have to ask the Germans, the Italians and the Japanese. I think they are doing well but that would be fun to see a Harley win a motorcycle Grand-Prix with the adequate 300lbs fat guy looking like je ne sais quoi driving it! French never made motorcycles.
It is interesting. I have to assume that journalistic integrity is intact, because they wrote reviews of TTs and was quite positive about it. Otherwise there's no point to reading any of these mags at all or discussing TTs on this forum.
Maybe he can't get the same records anymore. Personally, I listen to both CDs and LPs. On good LPs, the sound is almost magical in its sounding live or has presence in the room. Same goes for CDs. Somehow, I get more tired of CDs earlier than LPs over the long term. I make that statement without any hard data, just my impression. Someday I'll pay more attention and see whether that still holds true. Today, I know that I listen to LPs quite a bit, that is when I have the time to do so!
At the time Ken was their digital guru, taught in a sound/music related field at the university level and was declaiming vinyl (and its "hangers on") as obsolete.
Fifteen years later he is writing about the curse of lo-fi digital downloads and how we've lost a whole generation of potential music lovers to bad sounding mp3 players- even praising vinyl junkies for pursuing excellence from their systems. All I can say is "Ken, welcome back to where we've been all along."
Somewhere, on this forum, you'll find a post by me, saying that if you lined up the folks responsible for CD, I'd kick them square in the balls, as hard as I could. There's a reason for such a bit of a comment, as some are finding out. The rest, are lost (the general public, the ignorant, etc). 25 years to not even get close to what we had in 1980..it just makes me ill.
"It's all about the money, Honey!", The RIAA Hoe said, as he bent down to massage your wallet.
Good one!
I hate the vinyl ritual. Wash one side on the VPI vacuum machine. Dry-wipe the dust motes off, attracted by the static buildup as you carried the thing to the turntable. Cue 'er up and enjoy the music. Then repeat, only now you have to clean the stylus tip. The latter is absolutely necessary, or the $200-$5000 you spent on the cartridge is gone in less than a year. Constant cleaning will get you at least 10 years of pristine sound -- at least.
The only reason I put up with the fuss is for the better sound. We all tend to rate software (CD's or LP's) as "superb," "good," "average," or "poor." Across all categories, vinyl sounds better. There are bad vinyl recordings, but they are listenable. The bad CD's aren't. Again, by "better sound," I mean more satisfying when compared with the memory of a live event.
Vinyl lasts longer. A few ticks and pops may appear over the decades, but the record will still be enjoyable. I have many records that I bought in the 1960's that still sound like new. When a CD goes bad, it starts speaking in tongues -- a few squeaks and whistles, then silence. Never to be played again.
Vinyl is worth the trouble. CD's aren't -- but they are necessary because of the larger available catalogue. More music is always better, even if the sound quality suffers. Remember, with analog you get all the music; with CD's you get, ugh!, a "sampling."
cliff: also, as we have learned, those turntables make excellent objec'd art as well for just sitting around and looking at. bonus. in all seriousness, i just scored a number of LPs at the local goodwill that came from a library collection, some very clean and nice sounding and several from Command, which pressed some very clean sounding records and from Musical Heritage Society. i picked up 6 for $5.75. if no good, just redonate.
tom
Tom, maybe that's the true meaning of this thread -- Grosse Fugue (many different voices repeating the same line, up to the point of Grosse Fatigue...) may just like to stare at his.
They ARE beautiful. Especially some of the exotic new designs -- acrylics, stainless steel, wheels and pulleys in plain view...
And, you bring up a great point about glomming onto the ever-present vinyl bargain (all you have to do is look -- they're always out there). I scored the complete Beethoven Symphonies by Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra (Epic) for 4.99. Pristine. Virgin grooves, unrutted by portable gouges. You cannot use "score" and "CD" in the same sentence.
There will never be another Szell, and it has been captured on vinyl, in all its unsampled glory. That's UNsampled, not upsampled (a brave attempt, sometimes successful but usually not, to approximate "analog" sound -- don't you love it?).
Watch 'em AND spin 'em. But be sure to pay attention and listen. All the music, with all the overtones. All, all, all. That's why it's called "vin-all."
Happy listening.
that should go on a t-shirt: "Vin-all"
Yes! Wine for all!
In vinyl veritas.
I've got a t-shirt from my deceased friend (went down like Jim Henson-in 24hrs), Malcolm Gilbertson. He had an outfit called 'Bovis Design'. He did word puns connected to images, for the most part. His dad was an English teacher and used to nail folks for their poor English. "A brush with Death', as caption for a t-shirt, was under the image of someone looking wild-eyed at some guy over his shoulder..who he saw in reflected in his bathroom mirror. They were brushing their teeth together. The second guy, in close,and over his shoulder, was Death. Very funny stuff.
The one I have, says 'Space, the Vinyl Frontier' And a picture of the old starship enterprise, with the upper part being a LP,and it saying NCC-33 1/3.
Awesome. I should inquire about reprints.
French Fries
The keys to crisp French fries are using the proper potatoes (russet) drying the potatoes well, using corn oil, and NEVER COVERING THE PAN (excludes most consumer deep fryer).
The Grosse Fatigue method calls for cooking the potatoes twice. The first cooking cooks the centers of the fries. The second cooking makes the potatoes crisp and brown.
A continuer...
I ran a chip stand as a kid. We used fresh ground sirloin, and made the fries the way you just stated.
And we used Peanut oil, before the crap in food today caused everyone under the sun to suffer from a peanut allergy.
Lost another friend that way.
How about string fries with a nice garlic herb mayonnaise?
The next time anyone has a nice medium rare rib-eye, try getting some chilled fresh sour cream as a dip and try that combo.
The mix of flavours and temperature work out nicely. You will certainly be getting enough fat in your diet that day.
I find the hype surrounding turntables front pages and all even in home theater magazines so wrong and suspicious today that there must be nothing else to say, no new hardware to review, so now reviewers have to have 20 years kids dreaming about something to sell their magazines, dreaming about a turntable.... The end of the high end.
Amen!
So sad...
Ahhh... Mr. Fatigue, it's been so long since you "graced" the forum, and yet you, like the audio magazines, have nothing new to say? Perhaps the world itself has run out of new things to say. Music and art died about 100 years ago too...
Vinyl scares me....I have enough to worry about, let alone add another ritual to my rig.
Mark
Do not be afraid, butterfly. I used to sacrifice virgins, during the dark days of bad playback gear (fortunately, there were virgins to be sacrificed, back then -- now, we have no virgins and better playback gear, and I'll take that tradeoff any day).
Come to think of it, you look pretty frightening yourself, there. The ritual gets more diffuse, as the booze pours. As is the case with any human endeavor.
Calm your fears. Vinyl soothes and startles, but it's all in the service of the music. You just get one of those clear plastic/rubber thingies (Onzow Zerodust, 70 bucks and it lasts a lifetime, literally) to set your needle on, while you do a 30-second wetwashwipe with your VPI vacuum machine ($400 and it, too, lasts a lifetime), and (drink in hand) it didn't hurt a bit. And, I'll be damned. The needle never wears out. 30-45 seconds between sides. Music for a lifetime. Music OF a lifetime (my 35 year-old vinyl purchases sound better now than when I bought 'em -- and that is NO hyperbole, my good friend).
Fear? "Fear" is a computer that pretends to be able to talk back, but all the answers are wrong. There is no crying in, er, analogball.
You scare me. I think I need a drink.
The more you drink, the more vinyl sounds or makes sense? Proves the point, it's a fad. You need to get a $100K TT so you can tell us all how wonderful it is, and nothing comes close, maybe if it is so good you can stop drinking in order to enjoy snap crackle pop media
When on is looking for the best sonic reproduction that is widely available today
Vinyl -- Works
Digital -- Doesn't.
Not much else can be said.
One can waste pages and pages of text on the subject...but running into a demo room at a show with a crazed look and a ballpien hammer..and doing in the Digital rig..just about covers it.
That's debatable at best.
Only to guys like you, Alex.
Get thine monkey to a nunnery.
Dude, I have heard turntables ranging from about 1200-20k and I've yet to be impressed. So, you can't possibly tell me unequivocally, as a matter of fact that it's a given that vinyl sounds better. Hence, it's debatable.
Just remember. I gots a ballpien hammer. You'll only get about 30 seconds on that digtal rig 'afore I come runnin' into the room. Atack! Attack! Die digital, Die!
But that's OK. It's digital. You've got a gene damaged clone sitting the the corner, just in case.
Seriously?
I find the debate as to which one is best and claims that it is only one or the other silly, but I have certainly heard wonderful examples of both analog and digital.
Alex, what do you hear or not hear in analog playback that disturbs you?
Surface noise bothers me, lack of frequency extension, narrow dynamic range, lack of envelopment.
"When on is looking for the best sonic reproduction that is widely available today
Vinyl -- Works
Digital -- Doesn't.
Not much else can be said."
When you get right down to it, neither of them work that well if live music is your reference. When you add it all up they both have many shortcomings.
"Alex, what do you hear or not hear in analog playback that disturbs you? "
I know that the question was not directed towards me but I will chime in anyway. My biggest gripe with analog is that it is more inconsistent than digital. Some LPs sound spectacular while others sound like cr*p. Of course, there are many more variables with vinyl playback than there are with CDs: the quality of the vinyl itself, the stamper that it was pressed from, how much compression was used by the engineer, is the vinyl completely clean, is the cartridge aligned right, is the TT level, is the turntable isolated from vibration, has the vinyl been stored in a plastic sleeve that has "leeched", is the stylus clean, is the stylus worn, and don't even get me started with all of the variables with used vinyl!
I have heard inconsistency with digital as well but not as much. Mainly just poor judgment of the sound engineers[which is something you get with both formats].
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