As a relative newbie, it would probably be inappropriate to say 'welcome back' as I am maybe heading towards oblivion on here anyway soon...so, welcome back!

Nice link and great article for sure.

I have been asking a simple question since joining this site and have never yet had a reply which could stand up 'in court'...maybe you can help?

Where do I find the legislation (in any country?) which permits us folks to actually change the format of a recording from vinyl or tapes or cassette or mini disc to cd or computer?

I have read reams upon reams all about how folks in the USA, for example, have taken the "right to backups" way out of context, and yes, I fully appreciate there are millions of USB devices being made which will transfer anything to a cd, pc, music server and all that...but where is it writ to say we can do it legally (apart from the few artists / record companies who expressly give this permission on the media)?

In the UK, the 1709 Statue of Anne - which became law in 1710 as the Copyright Act - prevents the copying of an artistic work. There is no "fair use" exception or "private right to copy".

In the U.S., the fair use doctrine (17 U.S.C.

Wow, that is a high class response...and indeed points me in the roughly the same direction as I got from a another thread...but it still does not go far enough to cover all the old vinyl and all that other stuff? I follow cases such as:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060215-6190.html

but as these things seem to go in limbo for years at a time whilst everyone negotiates with everyone else, and lots of senators add their two bits along the way...I just loose the plot completely...

Cases for (or against) anyone taking that old chunk of black plastic and reformatting it via sophisticated computer programmes after coming through all sorts of high tech wires and boxes does not seem to be quite the same as ripping a cd (?) and the cases there are not so easy? Or would it be a simple read across which tests the boundaries of the US law there also?

You will not find a definitive answer. The difficulty is that there is no clear answer yet under U.S. law.

However, in the UK the issue is settled - no copies. Period. In Germany you can make copies. Thus, it depends on the state of the law where you reside.

In the U.S., the law is in flux. The Fair Use provision of the of the Copyright Act does not clearly answer the question and the appellate courts have yet analyzed the specific issue you raise, nor have they specifically addressed whether format shifting is legitimate fair use. So far the courts have only held that time shifting is legitimate fair use and that the manufacturer of an MP3 player is not in violation by making such a player available.

Note that the Fair Use section does not say that a user has the right to make a back-up. Thus, for example, the statue does not state that one can copy a CD for archival purposes, or for playing in a car. There also is no protection for entertainment or personal amusement. The purposes identified all have a "lofty" purpose, such as research, education, and criticism. On the other hand, this list is not exclusive but is only providing some examples.

One of the considerations is whether the same product can be used simultaneously in more than one place. If I keep my original CD's at home and no one else is playing them in my home when I am gone, there is no chance of simultaneous playback while I am listening to my copy in the car. But if I am making MP3's for the kids to share and each has a copy on his/her player there is an impact on the market for the product. Just like there is two MP3 players there should be two purchased copies of the music if the copies can be listened to simultaneously.

Here is the Fair Use provision. Note the four factors to be considered in determining whether the use is fair. A good argument can be made that copying by the owner of a piece of music to a different medium for the sole purpose of making it easier to listen to is fair use. The use is non-commercial (it is not being sold or used in any way for profit) and the effect upon the market is minimal as long as the user is not giving it away.

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Superb summary Elk and thank you sincerely for doing in so few words what I have been trying to say using thousands!

We should get a copyright for this thread and sell printed versions to go into the boxes alongside new sales of any recording gear, computers and MP3 type gadgets...we might become rich by telling everyone the law...eh...maybe not...

So, DUP, back to you (still there?) for why you consider all us luddites with shedloads (literally) of plastic and all any other media gathered over the past forty / fifty / sixty years (I guess that is probably the age limit to still be interested in such stuff, assuming teenage / early 20's starting the hobby) - just exactly why would I want to spend several more years recording everything onto a differing format, which might or might not be legal for a while yet, rather than just continue with the ways of the past...and even if it is 'legal' to do so, then I still have to retain all the original media anyway, (applies to all countries) otherwise I will just be as bad as any backsteet schmuck churning out bootlegs?

The way forward? YES, I absolutely agree with you 100% and this Korg link gets my vote as something I would seriously consider following (regardless of all the foregoing law stuff) BUT, why bother having a cheap shot at vinyl users in your title?

We know already...why not help us to change the rules instead of firing bullets or baiting idiots like me...

Musical art at a pace which suits the industry (however slow and ponderous that might be) or rampant technology is the question...

Do we love either as first choice, or do we constantly hide behind saying that we should be entitled to both in equal measure?

Dormston, I am glad I could help. It's an interesting topic that will remain in flux for quite a while.

That's for sure! My cunning and devious plan is to keep fully up to speed on things both side of the pond and as you folks get pegged back (maybe?) whilst we get the benefits of the propossed relaxations across here (government seems serious this time...) I should know when to dive right in and spend the big bucks on the correct gear this time around...

Thanks again Elk...folks such as you make it all worthwhile for folks such as me!