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I'll only suggest that one might do well to check the extent to which Mr. Gore personally adheres to his "pledge" and to what extent the purchase of so-called carbon offsets ranks as one of the most outrageous of current scams.

Republican talking points straight from Rush. Stick to critiques of the magazine, not Mr. Gore. Unless you want to start a left/right debate on an audio forum. I hope not. I don't come here to discuss politics.

Sometimes I wonder who the writer's intended audience is. Maybe deep inside some writers are secretly hoping that somebody from the New York Times will come across their piece and make a phone call.

So, you didn't mean anything by your comments regarding Al Gore and carbon credits? Oh, well, that's different.

Why's this bother you so much? I understand you don't read Stereophile for political comment but we live in a society that has been divided along political lines for the benefit of others, not us. It's difficult to find any publication that doesn't swing in one direction or the other. It used to be, "If it offends thee, pluck out thine eyes!" Now it would appear it's, "If ya don't like it, call the bastard a Clinton/Bush/America/Isreal, etc. hater and shout them down." It's been put in our heads that anything not subscribing exactly to how we've been told to think is propganda from the "other side" and needs more and louder propganda to even the score. How are we ever going to learn to talk to each other again? I'm really hoping for someone who can reunite this country. But our heads are so full of talking points, I don't know how that can happen. Most of us are already geared up to distrust the nominee from the opposite party, even before the nominee has been chosen.

Woo Hoo!

A politics party!

Did you bastages get the Spetember issue already?

Fargin' ice holes.

I figure, if this argument is part of a Stereophile column issue, that it works like this:

Writers seem to get paid by the word or the column inch. Therefore, it behooves them to fill a certain amount of space in order to get paid, no matter what they type. I call this "Dudley's Maxim."

Getting paid by the word must be some sort of union thing, which makes them likely to be liberal.

A more conservative method would be to pay writers by the point, or the piece, which would reward a certain economy of language and succinct communication, and would allow for coverage of a wider array of subjects/items. This would be a more conservative approach.

"Pay by the word" is the equivalent of a union's hourly wage - liberal.

Pay by the piece is more like hiring a contractor to most efficiently perform a task, and rewarding the result, not the process. This would be conservative.

If we could find out if this column paid the writer for a specified number of words or column inches, we could quickly figure out whether or not this is part of any "liberal" agenda.

Now...

However, this is not meant as a condemnation or endorsement of Al Gore.

We discussed this on another audio forum...

Gore tells us to do as he says, not as he does.

Bush, who owns a very "green" home in Texas, behaves as though he believes in this "green" stuff, but then doesn't talk the talk.

So, who is a bigger hypocrite, he who talks the talk, but doesn't walk the walk; or he who walks the walk, but won't talk the talk?

Someone asked, "How are we ever going to learn to talk to each other again?"

The answer is, "Not until we recognize that those pundits on both sides are sleazy self-serving slime bags who will say whatever it takes to get them ahead in the money/power game."

If either side can succeed at making you choose them, you lose.

****Disclaimer: Totally goofing off and talking out my butt. No interpersonal flames or other directed intent. Please, noone email Stephen and resign your commission here.*****

*Clay, this isn't directed at you in particular, but I had to respond to somebody. *

It seems we really do "loves our arguments". C'mon, guys, politics is so old hat. Whatever happened to religion and abortion? Let's have a real discussion here.

All joking aside, I think we get along better when ballots are cast privately. I don't care if you're a liberal, conservative, loyalist, whig, whatever. If you derive enjoyment from listening to high-fidelity music, come on in and we'll talk about all things related to the experience.

However, some of the best music has a political message. Insofar as hi-fi is a vehicle for our favorite music, is politics in an audio magazine (or forum) simply life imitating art yet again? Consider your minds all blown.

Now let's all roast marshmallows and sing "Kumbayah".

P.S. Atkinson/Meijas 2008

Watch the BBC doc, The great Global Warming Swindle

Despite it's title is is a god doc consisting of interviews with a number of climate scientists.
It is qiute an eye opener.
BTW , I am a far leftie , so politics are not playing a role for me

Beyond the Al Gore stuff, how about the Mattel, Gluten/poison stuff?

As a consumer, do you consider things like working conditions, employee salary, environmental friendliness when shopping for gear?

If you could get the same tube amp from China for 2,000 bucks, how much would you be willing to pay for that amp if it were made in America and the company paid a living wage to Americans and followed OSHA rules?

I have a stronlgy pro-union welder buddy who still shops at Walmart "Because it's cheaper," so this issue is blind to many.

Conservative or liberal, does the politics or worker's life of a given producer affect your Hi Fi shopping decisions?

Does Art Dudley refuse any reviews based on country of origin? Does Stereophile have any issue with reviewing all this Chinese gear?

Clay, I just had to say a HUGE thank you for adding this one. It puts many things into much sharper perspective for me...or have I got the wrong Al Gore, major high profile with Apple Inc who make computers and, eh...iPods...which obviously now play the very best music available in the world today...it's a good thing I am not a cynical Brit with any strong views to mention...just think of the read across double meaning political fun I could be having with that potential link...with or without caviar...

All the very best with this one (however long it is permitted to last for) and hope see you around here for a long time...

As to Chinese-made gear, I think about it a lot. Especially when you see a multi-thousand dollar piece of equipment, and have no way of knowing whether it was made by people being paid a living wage-- or even paid at all. I own a Chinese-made electric guitar, and the question of whether it was made by an 11-year old or a political prisoner weighs on me. In retrospect, I'm not sure I should have bought it without more investigation. (My other guitars are US, Canadian, Korean, or Japanese made)

I haven't gotten September's issue yet, but I don't see this Great Stereophile Liberal Conspiracy that's been talked about here and in the letters pages. Some of Stereophile's writers are Democrats. Some, I'm sure, are Republicans. Both sides occasionally make a quip, but generally always in the context of the review.

Like it or not, environmentalism is going to impact our hobby. Are the Chinese and Eastern European tube makers disposing of the (rather toxic) waste byproducts properly? With greenhouse gas emissions as high as they are, can we justify high-current amps or electrostatic speakers left on all the time? Are lead-soldered PC boards going to be viewed with reverence 10 years from now, after the EU ban, the way wire-wrapped boards are now? Are battery-powered preamps going to become a standard to save expensive AC? I don't think this is a Democratic or Republican (or Tory or Labour) issue. I think this is just the consequences of largely unchecked industrialism over the last hundred and fifty years. And we're going to have to live with the world we have.

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I am not Carl, and don't take kindly to your tone

No, but I'm beginning to guess you're that pissed off old fart who keeps calling in to "Washington Journal" warning us that we "better wake up, America!"

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we now have a full page of J V Serinus supporting Al Gore's current vehicle for remaining in the spotlight. That's great, just great!

WOW!!! OH, WOW!!!!!

I got my copy yesterday and just now found the article. There are no political statements here. Al Gore is merely mentioned as promoting a concert. How does this make him a bad guy? And what's it got to do with carbon credits and the house he lives in? The entire article is about how various music companies are recycling materials. No left. No right. Just stuff that makes sense no matter what party you vote for. Goodfuckinglord! This pisses you off? Man, you must have a hard time making it through a day. Get a grip, Cheapskate!

JA - Congratulations! And thanks. The information is useful to those of us concerned about wanton disregard for the planet. I don't normally buy from these labels, but I'll keep an eye out for any discs coming from any company that has the good sense to think of something other than profit. Ignore the old fart who keeps calling in to "Washington Journal". Some of us are willing to wake up and do our part. Once again, congrats for running an informative article on the music business without injecting politics into the mix.

Cheapskate, change the radio dial, man, before your brain melts.

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Writers seem to get paid by the word or the column inch. Therefore, it behooves them to fill a certain amount of space in order to get paid, no matter what they type. I call this "Dudley's Maxim."

No Stereophile writers get paid by the word.

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A more conservative method would be to pay writers by the point, or the piece...

Which is what we do.

Am astonished by the reaction to what is, to me at least. an even-handed piece of reporting on a subject that is increasingly becoming important. (And if you believe that only "liberals" believe in "green" policies, you should read some Theodore Rooseveldt.)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

As an aside, I just thought I'd pipe in on Al Gore for a second. Back in May, when he was doing his book tour for The Assault on Reason I stopped by Barnes & Noble to present him with the original art for a cover I did for The Washington Post of him and his dad from around 2000 when I did a series of paintings of several candidates; the art was just sitting in my drawer and I liked that Gore was trying to make the world a better place. I figured it's a painting of him with his father (who had died the year before the art was done) and thought better that he should have it rather than it rotting away in my files. The place was packed and the signing of books was rapid fire assembly line style. But, I got to speak with him for a minute (Wes came along with me and snapped some pics). The former VP was moved and he took the time to retrieve my book that had already slid down the table to make room for the next person, and inscribed it to me (I was one of maybe two people that got an inscription--the other was his politician schoolmate from years ago). In June, I even got a thank you note in the mail (how very Martha Stewart). The guy's all right in my book.

This was indeed wonderful behavior, regardless of what may think of his politics.

It was also very kind of you to offer the work to him. You are also a class act.

Geez, a liberal who acts like a human being. What a concept! Don't let the word get out, Jeff, it'll disappoint - what is it? - the 29% of the population who still think things are going well under a Republic administration.

I heard Karl Rove on Rush today. Man, what a goofball! And this is the guy who's been keeping George on track for the last fifteen years. And I get special dispensation to complain because I lived with Bush as my Governor for six years before he got "elected" Prez of this fine USofA. Ann Richards and lesbians my ass!

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You are also a class act.

I second that opinion, Jeff.

Don;t you dare give up on this now Clay...I just had a serious dose of Pink Floyd PULSE dvd (up close and personal on headphones, stone cold sober) and must find out from one of Al's mates if that was really an iPod the nurse gave to the scmuck on the bed before he went down the runway? This could be the only chance we will ever get to be so close to such an influential guy on the Apple payroll at Board level...

And maybe we could also do some research about the ref to Thedore and where his mention of Niccolo Machiavelli's 'The Prince' fits into all this...eh...hi-fi forum? That might gain some kudos with JA and prevent you having this junk censored (sorry that was typo, I meant...reaching its natural conclusion...or something like that...)

What are you reading? John, I'm going to have to complain that you're sending me copies of this magazine with pages missing. I see no "political propaganda". Why'd you leave it out of my copy? I see no free advertising. What's the story, John? What am I missing out on? Come on, John, I paid for ad sapce. I want my political propaganda. All I see is stuff about the music industry and some humorous bits about cassettes wrapped in leaves. Look here, John, if you start playing favorites and give Cheapskate stuff I don't get, I'll write a letter to the editor.

It's your choice, JA, either we all get to see what Cheapskate's talking about, or else!

Environmental fundamentalists aren't any different from religious fundamentalists. The entire movement has become almost indistinguishable from religious evangelicalism.

Just as an evangelical cannot tolerate the questioning of faith, an environmentalist cannot tolerate the questioning of man's contribution to their armegeddon riddled faith. Niether are interested in contrary opinion that doesn't advance the faith and both will not miss an opportunity to preach the gospels.

If you disagree, you might as well be denying the holocaust. You can't argue "faith."

It's also good to keep in mind that many of these types also consider Gore to be the "President in Exile."

Pretty much the same as anybody who accepts something on faith. People listen to Rush, Sean and Savage and believe the bullshit that comes out of their mouths. Don't tell me you think anti-enviromentalism is sound reasoning. You think pollution is a good idea? What the hell principle is there in disliking someone who doesn't pollute?

And what exactly does Al Gore have to do with this? He's mentioned as the producer of the concerts. He's not mentioned as any sort of political figure. No one is trying to convert anyone in this article. It's simply reporting what some companies are doing to lower pollution.

See, this is what drives everybody else nuts about people who want to live by disparging someone else. All this talk radio crap is about getting you mad at someone or something and then keeping you mad about it. Come on, guys, wise up. None of this is for your benefit unless you're one of the polluters. Now, tell me what Al Gore has to to with the article. Tell me why he's part of this discussion. The article is not about Al Gore!!!

Clay is overly gentle in his response to JA and the ref to Ogden Nash will most likely be lost on several participants herein...your use of gutter language and resort to swearing is not very subtle and I for one find it very offensive on such an open forum...

But then again...everything has it's purpose in such debates...or is this a deliberate ploy to try and get the thread shut down...

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Of course you thought the JVS piece was appropriate, John. Otherwise why would you have authorized publishing it? I just disagree on principal, and took the liberty of saying so.

I have no problem with that. But I don't grasp why anyone would be _for_ excessive consumption in the form of non-recyclable packaging? Forgive me, I don't see this as a conservative-liberal issue.

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I think publishing political propaganda provides no more benefit to the current state of high end audio than
does lead free solder.

Sorry. Perhaps you could provide me with a guide to what you consider "political propaganda" so I will know better in the future. I wrote about lead-free solder in the August 2005 eNewsletter, BTW -- see www.stereophile.com/images/newsletter/805Bstph.html -- so I guess my need to spread liberal propaganda is deep-rooted. :-)

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Your offering free advertising to would-be "greenies" is beside the point, so far as I'm concerned.

Phew.

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I'm not one of those who pays for ad space.

If you subscribe or purchase the magazine on the newsstand, then I am afraid you are. Sorry.

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Incidentally, did you ever read the old Ogden Nash poem about the little girl with the dirty word? Some things never change.

I am familiar with it, but I don't see any connection between it and anything I have written. Again, sorry.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"Goodfuckinglord! This pisses you off? Man, you must have a hard time making it through a day. Get a grip, Cheapskate!"

Jan has certainly made a point with language such as this...albeit far away from anything I have read by Ogden Nash...but the idea is roughly the same...

So this is okay then, John?

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So this is okay then, John?

This is trying to get the thread in a totally different direction that it was originally headed. I'll keep my "goodfuckinglord's" down to a minimum if someone can explain just what "principle" Cheapskate is defending. As far as I can see, this is a grown man who cannot tolerate seeing the name of the former Vice President of the United States in print. Go back and read the original post. It doesn't mention what the article is actually about. Cheapskate is offended by the mention of Al Gore. That's all. He misses the intent of the article because he sees so much red when he reads a name. He can't read the rest of the magazine because "Al Gore" is on page fourteen. Now just what principle is involved with that?! And I bet he believes there's a bunch of "Bush Haters" out there. Now that's what talk radio will do for you.

Jan, I promise you there is only direction for me right now and that is bed...

Trust me on one thing before I depart for tonight...swearing and the name of any Lord in any context will not do anyone any good...

Relax and good people will remain good people however heated the debates may become...life is too short...and there is so much music out there to listen to...I was serious about Pink Floyd...is that one of THE best concert DVD's or what!!!

Yow.

I thought this was a goof off thread, but it's talking a more serious turn.

This calls for the consumption of natural products of fermentation and good, old fashioned name calling.

Just so long as the Karl Rove Defense Fund Concerts merit a mention, it's all good!

No, no, no, no, no. If we can't have Al Gore promoting concerts, we can't have Karl Rove having anything to do with music. Fair is fair. Besides, I don't like New Country.

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No, no, no, no, no. If we can't have Al Gore promoting concerts, we can't have Karl Rove having anything to do with music. Fair is fair. Besides, I don't like New Country.

Can we at least have a link to Ann Coulter's website so we can see what she's listening to on her ipod? Sam could disguise it as musically relevant in some fashion or another.

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I was serious about Pink Floyd...is that one of THE best concert DVD's or what!!!

You can find my thoughts (and my youngest daughter's) on this DVD at www.stereophile.com/images/newsletter/706Bstph.html. Great music making. (I don't know whether Al Gore is a fan, however.)

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Of course you thought the JVS piece was appropriate, John. Otherwise why would you have authorized publishing it? I just disagree on principal, and took the liberty of saying so.

I have no problem with that. But I don't grasp why anyone would be _for_ excessive consumption in the form of non-recyclable packaging? Forgive me, I don't see this as a conservative-liberal issue.

That's because the "Political Propaganda" in this case is reminiscent of the propaganda shown in the 80's B-movie "They Live." It can only be seen under special conditions.

What JVS wrote in the Sept. issue:
"But as Al Gore's worldwide Live Earth concerts of July 7 demonstrated, the subject [of global warming] has become of major concern worldwide."

What Cheapskate saw, through his magic glasses:

"Comrades-- the meeting of the Fifth International, headed by Al Gore, of July 7, advanced the cause of global revolution and the coming destruction of Bourgeois High-End Audio."

Got to admit, he's got us. Wait until he realizes that Michael Fremer's column is actually about turnip production in the next 5-year plan....

:-)

Seriously, though, there's not much to disagree about so far as global warming is concerned. Even if you don't believe that temperatures are rising and that the oceans are threatened by acidification, most of the solutions put forth by environmentalists are perfectly reasonable, if for different reasons. Why spend so much of our GDP on fossil fuels that mostly come from nations who are opposed to the West? (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc.) Why shouldn't capitalists be able to make money on cleaner, greener energy options for consumers? (You know that the guy or gal who develops the next form of cheap power is going to be a multi-billionaire) And isn't conservation a conservative virtue? Regardless of what I think about their politics, Rush Limbaugh is plugging GM hybrid cars, and George and Laura Bush's homestead in Crawford is almost entirely solar-powered. Call it global warming or energy independence, but I think this is one issue that left and right can agree on.

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Can we at least have a link to Ann Coulter's website ...

What?! My choice is Karl Rove or Ann Coulter? Let's see ... I choose ... sticking my face in the fan blade of a Hummer.

Clinton

Gore

Hillary

Teddy Kennedy

Biden

Pelosi

Kerry

Boy, oh, boy, there must be people foaming at the mouth by now.

I think the most often expressed reason heard from the right for defeating any form of immigration reform was not that is was a bad bill. It was that Teddy Kennedy had anything to do with it.

Pathological. That's what you get from talk radio. This is not in your best interests, folks.

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Boy, oh, boy, there must be people foaming at the mouth by now.

Yeah, but are they willing to stick their head in the fan blade of a Hummer?

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"So is this okay then, John?"

I note, John, that you responded to dormston's reference to the Pink Floyd DVD, but not to the above direct question included in his earlier post. That should keep you in good shape for the Artful Dodger award. Good show!

Start a new thread if you want to complain about that, Clay. This thread's headed in a different direction.

But now that you've brought up artful dodging, "explain just what 'principle' Cheapskate is defending", would be useful about now.

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Yeah, but are they willing to stick their head in the fan blade of a Hummer?

I don't know. Ask them to walk to the front of their vehicle. They're stopped for gas anyway.

Good morning Clay and anyone reading this...whatever the time of day or night.

I think politics is often all about forcing the other side into a corner where you can crush them, publically humilate them in any way you can...and then suddenly backing off to permit the audience (or voters) the right to choose.

The decision to pull the plug on my thread regarding DUP was the first part of that, without the second bit. Even if it had been shut down with just a passing jibe at me for starting it, or telling me it was wrong, or anything really, then that would have been okay with me. Whatever was going on there I was in some kind of control (in my mind - no need for anyone to disagree as I am sure you might) and it most likely would have headed into debacle at some stage perhaps...but it was not permitted to do so and impolite is the kindest comment I will make about that decision. Had that one been permitted to run its course, then maybe it could have been used as a 'vent' for such obvious and painful dichotomies of decision making....I agree with you on the choice of 'baloney' as an appropriate word...unless the situation can be salvaged with some calming influences from somewhere...

One MAJOR plus which resulted from that thread was that I learned a huge amount about your sensitivities, saw the point of what you were saying and whilst we might never have became best buddies, then at least you very firmly went into my 'RESPECT' folder. Which is why I dived right into this thread to see how it developed...and wow, that's what I call development...

Like you, I have no qualms whatever in meeting John (or anyone) on eyeball to eyeball debates about anything - his response almost at the same time / immediately after Jan's tirade was a complete shock to me and I had to check a few times what was happening - this is not a chat room (maybe it should be?) and yet we can all log in and out and see who is doing what and to whom by the minute, so I just played the cards as they came...(and before anyone says anything...I had no idea John had writen that stuff about PULSE...amazing, stunning even...almost as if planned by some 'goodlord' or other...)

So he took the easy way out after he realised what had happened and probably grabbed hold of something which could maybe be used in the backing off process I mentioned at the start of this...

Jan? Not so sure. You might get an apology for the language cunningly hidden in a continued barrage against you - at least the swearing seems to have gone away...that can only be good!

You are better person than to run away mid point of a debate you started. I asked you to hang there last night and I repeat that request again today. You have the choice...which is more than I got..and I am still here being a real Britpest...(actually a Scotpest but that does not have the same melodic ring....)

I will close this by using the time zone game which permits me to say anything in the safety of a few hours before response...tee hee...the music later just might be pure sound for me ( I can only do films in small doses, however good they might be) - maybe some Dougie Maclean, Loreena McKennitt or Mary Black - and if that does not change the subject to the better for anyone wishing to do so...then I give up...

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I note, John, that you responded to dormston's reference to the Pink Floyd DVD, but not to the above direct question included in his earlier post. That should keep you in good shape for the Artful Dodger award. Good show!

Stephen and I allow you the freedom to say what you feel appropriate, Clay, but you wish us not to extend that same freedom with those holding different political views. Given the public heartsearching we had over the decision to ban DUP for a month, I thought it obvious that I value highly _all_ posters' freedom to express themselves as they think appropriate. I didn't think the language being used had reached the point where intervention from what you dismiss as the "nanny state" was necessary.

I am sorry to see you leave this forum, Clay. I have valued your contributions highly but it seems you misunderstood the nature both of this forum and of Stereophile magazine. Neither comprises a gathering of like-minded people except when it comes to the love of music. And if that love can bind together audiophiles with as opposite political beliefs as Sam Tellig (far right, friend of William Buckley) and Michael Fremer ('nuff said), it is difficult for me to see why you became so combative over Jason's reporting on recyclable CD packaging. Why didn't you just turn the page if the subject matter itself is anathema to you?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Oh my gosh...even the time zone game does not work on this one then...eight minutes after mine...and you leap to the defence of foul language...jings, John, I read you all wrong by miles...

UPDATE / EDITING EXPLANATION; I have just said a fond farwell to Clay via PM and wished him all the very best. This hurts me greatly and I would not be the real me if I did not simply confront everyone with the reality of what is being supported here - bastard, fart, piss, fucking - all good stuff, eh, however mixed up you might have seen his intentions that sort of gutter rubbish deeply upset the poor bloke - rip him apart politically with as many words as you like, but have concern for his sensitivities, after all he liked music and was part of this community for a long while.

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The decision to pull the plug on my thread regarding DUP was the first part of that, without the second bit. Even if it had been shut down with just a passing jibe at me for starting it, or telling me it was wrong, or anything really, then that would have been okay with me.

I never thought you were wrong for starting that thread, dormston. Perhaps I'm misreading you, but I don't understand why you would want to be told you were wrong or why you would want some "passing jibe."

That thread existed for two weeks. It earned 48 responses from 19 different forum members, beginning with your provocative questions and ending in what I felt was a tasteless and poor rhyme. In between, there were some interesting points, and the thread did allow people to express their feelings.

In my opinion, then, the thread ran its course.

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One MAJOR plus which resulted from that thread was that I learned a huge amount about your sensitivities, saw the point of what you were saying and whilst we might never have became best buddies, then at least you very firmly went into my 'RESPECT' folder. Which is why I dived right into this thread to see how it developed...and wow, that's what I call development...

Again, please tell me if I'm wrong, but this sounds to me as if you view this forum as some sort of episode of an American reality show. This isn't Big Brother 9. I hope that our members are not motivated to drive others out. No one here should feel motivated to win my or John's favor in the hopes of achieving "immunity." I view this forum as an extension of our audiophile and music-loving family, really. I think of our members as part of a team. I trust that you will treat each other with respect and try to be understanding. When this doesn't happen, I'm deeply disappointed in all of us, and I wonder what we're doing wrong.

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Like you, I have no qualms whatever in meeting John (or anyone) on eyeball to eyeball debates about anything - his response almost at the same time / immediately after Jan's tirade was a complete shock to me and I had to check a few times what was happening - this is not a chat room (maybe it should be?) and yet we can all log in and out and see who is doing what and to whom by the minute, so I just played the cards as they came...(and before anyone says anything...I had no idea John had writen that stuff about PULSE...amazing, stunning even...almost as if planned by some 'goodlord' or other...)

For the record, we have no idea of who's posting what when. It's a simple coincidence that some posts follow so closely after others.

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So he took the easy way out after he realised what had happened and probably grabbed hold of something which could maybe be used in the backing off process I mentioned at the start of this...

Are you saying that John Atkinson took the easy way out? JA doesn't need me to defend him, and I certainly don't mean to speak for him, but I must say that I have never known John Atkinson to take the easy way out of anything. I feel insulted by this.

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Jan? Not so sure. You might get an apology for the language cunningly hidden in a continued barrage against you - at least the swearing seems to have gone away...that can only be good!

For the record, I have asked Jan to consider putting an end to the name-calling. I think there are better, more effective, ways to communicate.

Greetings and please could I have a minute to read this before responding. I have just updated my last post with some editing.

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I'm just taking the opportunity to point out that even when asked the direct question, John is apparently unwilling to take a stand on the issue of your filthy mouth and your propensity to resort to childish personal attacks. I find that particularly interesting in the context of the rationale given for banning DUP - the effort to reduce "negativity" blah blah blah. You remember, don't you? Appears it was just so much baloney.

Hi Clay.
First, it makes me sad to hear you're thinking of leaving the forum. I'll miss your contributions.

Second, I'm sorry you feel my words were just so much baloney and blah. I'm startled, really, by that comment, as I put so much effort into sharing my feelings with this forum, and have done my best to be honest and fair.

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Given the direction the forum has taken over recent months, I'm joining the ranks of Jim, Clifton, Jazzfan, and others and absenting myself.

I don't know why, exactly, Jim, Cliton, and Jazzfan aren't participating as much as they used to. I'm sure they have good reasons. However, I feel that we all make this forum what it is.

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Stephen and I allow you the freedom to say what you feel appropriate, Clay, but you wish us not to extend that same freedom with those holding different political views. Given the public heartsearching we had over the decision to ban DUP for a month, I thought it obvious that I value highly _all_ posters' freedom to express themselves as they think appropriate. I didn't think the language being used had reached the point where intervention from what you dismiss as the "nanny state" was necessary.

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Oh my gosh...even the time zone game does not work on this one then...eight minutes after mine...and you leap to the defence of foul language...jings, John, I read you all wrong by miles...

Sorry, Dormston, I don't understand your time zone argument. I browse the forum every morning as I have my coffee before getting ready to leave for the office and responded to Clay (Cheapskate) as I thought appropriate. And please note that I reinstated my text that so offended you, because I really do believe your reaction is not justified by what I actually wrote.

I am sorry you are so offended by my defense of the use of what you regard as "foul language." I am also surprised that you misjudged me on this subject as I have written many times in the magazine on my attitude to so-called "offensive" language. If you are a regular Stereophile reader, then you must have picked up on my beliefs regarding freedom of expression.

What offends me are not words as such but _what_ people say, whether it is phrased using polite language or not.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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What offends me are not words as such but _what_ people say, whether it is phrased using polite language or not.

This, I feel, is an excellent point.

Nice response. Maybe a few bits I would like the opportunity to come at you about...especially that Big Brother ref...never watched it my life and have no intention of starting now...or ever in the future, so your analogy is completely lost on me.

I need some coffee and have a few other things to do for a wee while - please let this run for a little while and let's see how other folks are thinking about all this stuff.

Something's obviously broke...even I could see that before I joined...maybe it can be fixed...

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So [John] took the easy way out after he realised what had happened and probably grabbed hold of something which could maybe be used in the backing off process I mentioned at the start of this...

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Are you saying that John Atkinson took the easy way out? JA doesn't need me to defend him, and I certainly don't mean to speak for him, but I must say that I have never known John Atkinson to take the easy way out of anything. I feel insulted by this.

Don't be insulted, Stephen. To clarify, I felt the over-reactions being demonstrated in this thread were getting unhealthy. I thought that I would try to steer the thread back to the thing that binds us together -- music -- by running with the ball dormston threw to me. Obviously, I failed, just as I did with my somewhat humorous original response to Clay.

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For the record, I have asked Jan to consider putting an end to the name-calling. I think there are better, more effective, ways to communicate.

Agreed. However:

A point I have made in the magazine is that I allow the window to be opened wide as to what is said in the magazine. The enduring success of Stereophile I believe is largely due to the fact that it is not like other magazines, that as editor I do not force my writers to conform to a single viewpoint, I do not censor what they say to be either politically, socially, or audiophilically correct. (Factually and grammatically correct...now that's a different matter.)

The upside of that philosophy is that there can be lively debates in our pages, that lead, I believe, to a greater understanding all around of the truths that underlie what we perceive. The downside is that occasionally -- _very_ occasionally -- language that some find offensive is used.

I apply the same philosophy to the forum. Once you start censoring what is said with respect to language, it is but a small step to doing the same for ideas, I strongly feel.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile