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I haven't a clue, but I need to say that I'd love to have to make this decision, Jeff! The thought of you matching a reference turntable with your Watt/Puppies gives me goosebumps.

I don't seem to get many replies to my threads unfortunately, so I haven't gotten much help except from dealers. I would like more third party input though, as dealers tend to be biased towards products they sell, and some even tend to be biased towards the more expensive products as well (though not all of them, and those people I usually stick with, but in this case my regular dealer only carries Clear Audio).

Also, any input on the Clear Audio Linear tracking systems (such as a Maximum Solution system) would be useful as well. So far people tell me they are too analytical and cold.

Thanks.

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It really shouldn't matter what anyone else would prefer, our ears are not yours and our systems are not yours. Dealers choose to carry equipment that suits their taste just as you choose to buy what suits your preferences; therefore, they tend to promote what they feel offers good sound and good value. You might disagree but that is what they would choose. If you find a dealer who wouldn't own what they are selling, I would suggest you should probably be shopping elsewhere.

The question should be; which would you pick - and why? Why did you settle on these two tables? Have you heard them? Can you hear them? In a setting you would consider fair and of value to the final decision? If you hear them with different cartridges mounted, is that sufficient to make a decision? For, as has been pointed out at a much lower price range, the cartridge will be a larger influence on the final sound than either of these two tables. What if you hear them on a completely different system to what you run? Is that valuable?

A reviewer has the opportunity to spend months with a product and can change the component's around the item under review in order to best judge the merits of a single component. None of us have that experience. Few, if any, dealers will have these two tables on display side by side in a real world comparison set up. We hear a product in a showroom and we do not have the ability to ask whether we could now hear this same table and arm with this other cartridge which we might buy - had we the disposable income to do so. Or those other $25k speakers or amplifier. So our impressions of a product we do not own will be based solely on what we read. And you can read the same things we have access to.

What are you using now and how do you feel it needs to be upgraded? What's missing or what's being put into the sound of your present set up? That's what we would need to know before passing any judgement. Will you be buying a new cartridge also? What will you use for a support system? One of these tables is somewhat more immune to the effects of placement and support structure than the other. How do you feel about unipivot tonearms? Would you be more comfortable with the more "traditional" SME arm? Do you intend to have more than one cartridge and therefore could benefit from the interchangeability of the VPI's arm wand? Are you interested in upgrading as the parts become available from the manufacturer? VPI is on a constant upgrade path while the SME is a more fixed in time system. These are the sorts of questions you should be asking and telling us how you've reached your decision. Then we can guide you toward a rational decision based upon what you tell us. If you're wanting a very "fast" table, then you'll lean one way. If you're wanting a very "rich" sounding table, then you go the other direction. What does your system require to make an improvement? Tell us what you think and we'll tell you whether we think you're clearly reasoning this out.

But asking how we feel about one or the other is more a test of our imaginations not our experience. Even if we'd heard each of these tables in the past year, that matters little in what you should properly choose. The only forum members with an initimate, working knowledge of the tables you have chosen are the Stereophile staff, and I doubt they will chime in on this question. Otherwise, we can read what you can read on line and in the magazines. We can have the same general sense of what the tables do but it is only a second hand opinion in most cases. And what we feel is a good mix of virtues won't necessarily be what your system needs in order to move forward in quality. So what we would choose or why we would choose one over the other is basically irrelevant. Tell us how you're coming to a decision and we can tell you whether we see flaws in your reasoning. But we cannot pick your system. Once you've spent the money and the table is in your home, will it matter which we would have picked? Do you tend to second guess yourself? Your dealer carries ClearAudio who make a very nice table also. Why isn't it in the running?

Does a $4-5K difference in price mean anything to you? That would be a very important question to answer. Or, is this just a "what if" game? In that case, I'd have both.

You know, I was going to post a detailed response to your personal, assumption-based criticisms of my question, but it just isn't worth it. I'm sure if you think about your own post and consider alternate contradictory arguments, you will see how lopsided many of the things you have said happen to be. Needless to say, I'm losing my interest in posting on these fora the more I read your responses to my queries. If you want to see the kind of help you can get from people who genuinely want to be of help to others, go look at my thread with almost the same title on the Steve Hoffman Hardware forum. IMO, you are going to drive more people away from these fora than DUP ever could have. This post will probably mysteriously disappear, but I don't even care, because I likely won't be sticking around much longer to notice it. I just don't care to interact with people who are cantankerous by nature anymore.

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Jeff,no one is actually going to tell you how these two tables sound.Only way is to get a side-by-side comparison at a good dealer or even better at home,in your own system.
If none of the above options is possible,then you will have to consider other variables,such as,looks,easy of setup and maintenance,bulk,the cartridge you are going to mount on etc

Those are all variables I was hoping people would elaborate on, but I guess no one here has any experience with these turntables. Thankfully I received input on these things at the Steve Hoffman Hardware Forum.... So, with that information, the information from the manuals, some dealer advice and comparing all that advice, as well as online/manual/post information, with real people's experiences with these turntables (researching posts and reviews on these turntables using Google search on the WWW) I made a decision. I don't think either one would be "bad," so ultimately it came down to engineering (build quality) and tweekability (as in, I don't like tweeking minor things a lot, I just want relatively easy setups so I can enjoy the music...).

Tweekability was the largest deciding factor of those two deciding factors. I wouldn't have realized that was the most important variable to me, if I didn't research and ask simple questions such as I did here. When you ask simple questions that leave things wide open, people "tend" to tell you the characteristics that stand in stark relief to them between different components. Unfortunately, that didn't happen on this thread.

The SME 20/2 became the obvious choice, since money wasn't an overriding concern. I also bought the Sutherland PhD and Lyra Titan to compliment the turntable.

I was hoping to find people who owned both to see if any of them regretted their decision to buy an SME or VPI and hear why. I wasn't interested in blindly believing people's opinions, as I learned awhile ago with high end cables, I often don't agree or sometimes don't even hear any differences. Though I do know that with turntables, unlike cables, this is not going to be the case because of the nature of the equipment and the variety of euphonic coloration different catridges (disproportionately so), tonearms and tables can impart on the analog output. BTW, I am definitely looking forward to playing with the variety of cartridge flavors at some point in the future!

It has been around two decades since I last had a turntable to play with, and I've already gotten most of my LPs out of storage, as well as some of my parent's LPs. I'm excited to have more of a choice in terms of dynamic contrast compared to the CD versions of many albums that are compressed to hell and clip too often. Seeing and hearing comparisons between modern albums on CD and LP was a revelation. Many albums I had given up on because they sounded like horsesh## are available on LP in less compressed, non-clipping, and more natural/dynamic sounding forms. This makes the expense worth while to me....

Thanks and bye.

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That was quick!

An impressive setup.

I'm not jealous. Really, I'm not.

I had been considering my options long before I made the two posts here on this forum. Getting peoples' personal opinions about the equipment was the last step.

I had already decided on the SME before making this post due to the relative simplicity, but the price issue was still causing me conflict until last night when I went to bed and thought about it as I fell asleep. I posted this thread right before going to bed. I decided that the most important thing for me would be to eliminate as much frustration as possible from the experience so that I can do what I really want, enjoy the music. If I had to run around changing variables too often, I would eventually get frustrated and be less likely to use the turntable.

The point for me, is to enjoy the music, not waste time on unnecessary details and the SME seems to eliminate a lot of the unnecessary details. Any extra money spent is well invested if it allows me to sit back and listen to the music more often. I've learned that, when I have to tweak something too often, I eventually not only stop using the item, I actually get depressed at the thought of trying to use the equipment I spent so much money and time on. So, the SME seems the most logical way to be true to myself and get the most out of my entire system.

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JK and others - If you find my posts generally "cantankerous", I would appreciate it if you would stop reading right here and go back to place my name on your ignore list. Please. Do so. I'm not here to run anyone off the forum, only to answer questions as best I know how. So, just as I was told when I found dup offensive, the forum has provided a simple way to avoid being offended. Hopefully, that will resolve any future conflicts. I would ask anyone else who has a problem with my posts to do the same. If you have other problems with my style, I should hope you will take it up with Stephen and John.

OK, I read my post again. No, I don't find it cantankerous. Or offensive. I do find your initial post overly broad. If I were in a position to sell you either table with equal ease, the questions I posed are the questions I would be asking before I ever set a disc on a platter. What is the dealer maker? What do you think you want? Why?

Most people have made up their minds before they reach the point of handing over cash, they just want assurance they aren't making a huge blunder. I would guess you really had your mind made up before you ever posted your question here. You had decided what values where important and which were less so. That was all there was to my post, JK. What is important to you? Why don't you try reading it once again with that in mind?

Here's a quote from the current HiFi+ (issue 51) which you might find helpful or you might find cantankerous.

"So, where does that leave the poor reader? I'm certainly not saying that reviews are worthless. What I am saying is you need to be aware of what they can and cannot tell you; aware of their limitations. Reviews tell us about products - they can't tell us what products to buy. Knowing all of the above and considering it when reading a review is a step in the right direction, but, unfortuantely, human nature acts against us. We want answers, and even more likely we want affirmation. As someone once said, 'They don't want to know what you think, they want you to confirm what they think.' If you've set your heart on that single ended amp with the fancy Russian transmitter tube then look hard enough and you'll probably find a review to confirm your affections. If you run out of mags, try the web and as a last resort there's always the forums... As I said earlier, reviews can't tell you what to buy, but connected into a logically continuous whole, they can help you decide for yourself."

I was asking for your logic, JK. I see you found your affirmation elsewhere. Congratulations on your acquisition and I hope you enjoy the music.

If ignoring people banned them from posting on my threads, you would be on my ignore list. Since it doesn't, I want to keep tabs on your haughty blather.

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Jan, when I read Jeff Kalman's post that started this thread I thought, how the hell can anyone answer this question? When you get to that level, there are no really bad components. Which you pick depends on your ears, room, etc. How sad it is that someone able to shop in that neighborhood doesn't understand that.

I completely understand that. I even said it myself in an earlier post. It isn't my fault if both of you read too deeply into the very simple question I asked.

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Face it, Jeff has succeeded in his purpose. First he advised us in detail about his new speakers which very few who hang out here will ever be able to afford and now he's made us aware of his ability to buy an analog front end in the same category. I envy his gear, but if I had to adopt his attitudes to get it, I'd stick with what I have.

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If you're referring to Jeff Kalman crying out repeatedly for attention and finally getting it, that makes sense.

Crying out for attention?

Wow, I shudder to think that your posts are supported by Stereophile magazine. With people like you and Jan around purporting your own exclusive brands of elitism, no wonder this hobby is dying out. I guess I'm not "good enough" for the both of you because I ask questions in a way that neither of you like and because I try to share my enthusiasm for music reproduction by posting openly about my experiences and excitement over new equipment. God forbid if either of you were ever new to certain parts of this hobby, like I am to LPs after a twenty year hiatus, and needed to do any groundwork research or get opinions on things.

To think, we have gotten to this point because both of you didn't understand my initial question, made assumptions about me personally based on your interpritations of that question and then chose to criticize me as if those assumptions were the truth....

I can't believe you two are for real! Is this really happening?!?

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Actually i do own a SME 20.2 with series V arm. I just did not wanted to "push" you in that direction.Some ppl preffer
the looks of the VPI.It is a matter of taste.I would never purchase a Clearaudio turntable or any other acrylic based one.I hate their looks.

Awesome. I appreciate your input. Did you ever directly compare the IV.Vi and V arms to each other, or did you start out with the V arm?

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It isn't my fault if both of you read too deeply into the very simple question I asked.

I didn't read anything into your inital post. That was the problem. There was nothing there, which I pointed out in my reply. That you found your affirmation from other sources is not my fault, though you would like to make it so. Quite possibly, since you really had made up your mind before you posted, if you had asked for a reason not to buy the SME, we could have read your mind and given the slap on the back you desired. As is, I read your post to mean you were still deliberating the issue. That can hardly be considered my problem since you were really asking only for applause (affirmation). I could read further into your posts, but I'd rather not. I took what was in front of me. If there is a fault on my part in this thread, it is that I did so. Believing people have good and honest intentions has always been a weakness for me.

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With people like you and Jan around purporting your own exclusive brands of elitism

Please explain where or how in my post I have touted any form of "elitism". I asked you questions. I made no recommendations other than you should reason out why you would buy one or the other product and we here on the forum could suggest where, if at all, we found fault with your reasoning. Please quote where I did anything other than that since you are reading my mind and finding far different intents than I see in the post. Be specific or appologize for that last statement, JK. You are taking some very large steps with nothing to support your final position.

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I guess I'm not "good enough" for the both of you because I ask questions in a way that neither of you like

Same as above, please show me where I suggested I didn't like how you asked the question or suggested you aren't, oh my, "good enough". I said the post was overly broad. And I asked you to give us more to work with. If that is a fault, JK, I'll gladly live with it. Again, quote or apologize. You are crawling further out on a limb here as you speak. Specifics, sir. Or apologize.

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To think, we have gotten to this point because both of you didn't understand my initial question, made assumptions about me personally based on your interpritations of that question and then chose to criticize me as if those assumptions were the truth....

I understood your initial post. But there was, in my mind, no way to give any useful feedback. You might as well have asked if you should paint your listening room blue or red. The question, such as it was posted, was too broad IMO. In my opinion, sir. Am I now not allowed my opinion? On your threads, I suppose not.

What portion of my reply did you not read?

Even with experience with the VPI, what I hear is no reason for you to buy the table or not. That was my piont, JK, not any of the intents you read into my post. If you had clarified that you wished for replies only from those people who owned one of the two tables and now regret their purchase, then I would not have responded to your thread. (And thank you for reminding me that you now own threads on a public forum. I didn't know that was possible until you stated the fact.) You seem to be making assumptions about other folk here and acting as if those assumptions are real. Please, look in the mirror before opening your mouth. You are being an ass.

Once again, quote me or apologize. I suspect, like rgibran, you can do neither.

I see no reason for this to be happening. You are overstepping your limits here, JK. My post was meant as assistance. You rather brazenly and rudely mistook my post for something it was not. Now you've accused me and others on ths forum of offending you!!! This would seem a good place for some statesmanship and humility on your part, JK. Apologize and this will be over and you can go listen to your music which is most important to you.

Humility is a concept completely foreign to you. You took my simple question and used it as an opportunity to inflate your own ego at my expense. Look at other people's responses compared to your own, except Cheapskate who is intent on defending you by defaming me (this isn't the first time he has verbally assaulted me BTW, nor the first time you have sought to argue with me, so I'm not surprised). Look at the responses on the Steve Hoffman thread. If you don't see that the issue is you I can't help you. No matter what I post I am only dooming myself to endless arguments with you, as you are incorrigible. It is unfortunate that they banned DUP, as at least he kept you occupied. You can be as cantankerous as you please, as you are still doing by the way, but it won't change the incredibly assumptive and egotistical nature of your posts.

Perhaps there was merit in your advice to use the "ignore" feature, as you are so high above everyone else in your own mind, that you feel beyond reproach. I don't owe you an apology, and it is over now. Now feel free to continue with your haughty blathering, I don't even care to keep tabs on it anymore. Welcome to ignore....

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First he advised us in detail about his new speakers which very few who hang out here will ever be able to afford and now he's made us aware of his ability to buy an analog front end in the same category.

BTW, I started my Watt Puppy 8 thread in the speaker forum because people asked me in PMs and in other threads ("APB on Mr. Kalman" and the WP8 threads in that month's issue forum) if I would post my impressions, not because I felt compelled to on my own impetus.

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How did that go - methinks he doth protest too much ? Yeah, that's it.

Are you talking about me or your buddy Jan? He seems to be protesting much more than I am.

This reminds me of a scene in Monty Python's "The Life of Brian:"

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Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!
Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.
Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!
Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!

Copied and pasted to avoid unintentionally reading the post:

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*** You are ignoring this user ***

Ah, this is a lot better already. Thanks for the advice on the "ignore" feature Jan. Now I can get back to being "a part" of the community instead of being "apart" from the community.

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I decided that the most important thing for me would be to eliminate as much frustration as possible from the experience so that I can do what I really want, enjoy the music. If I had to run around changing variables too often, I would eventually get frustrated and be less likely to use the turntable.

Good thinking.

I, too, find that while I enjoy having adjustment options I find them distracting if there are too many or if the item demands careful adjustment with each use.

I suspect that some do not get a turntable at all for fear that all of the talk of adjusting and setup means that they will need to be constantly fiddling.

Thanks!

It was one of the largest things holding me back, and one of a few reasons I didn't get back into LPs in 2005 (when I initially registered at Steve Hoffman forums). The second largest more recently was hearing stories of people washing their records every time they used them! I found out that was a tad obsessive and I didn't need to do it that often at all, that brushing them was usually good enough.

I bought a VPI record cleaner as well since I have a few hundred LPs to clean that haven't been used in around 20 years, that were stored in my parent's basement.

I love my surround processor, but every time I change something around in the system, such as, decide to remove the grills, or put them back on (because of my kids), or move a speaker toe-in, or change room treatment locations, I have to run through the speaker levels and room correction setup again. It gets annoying. I can't wait until I have everything set finally and can just be done with all of that. I'm still waiting on the center channel, the center channel stand, some additional RPG System BAD ARC treatments, and I have to send my Stewartscreen in with an RMA to repair shipping damages before I can finally do that setup procedure one last time. Well four last times actually, one room correction profile for the screen up and one room correction profile for the screen down, as well as three alternate user profiles for my setup without a center, without a sub and without a sub and center.

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Hi Jeff

Sorry for the delay in responding.The sme mk.iv.vi arm is sold only in the USA.Actually,it is a mk.iv arm modified by the US distributor (magnan cables re-wiring etc).I bought mine with the mk.V.There is a "package deal" over there fitted with the MK iv.vi sold as a package.That would save you a few bucks.On the other hand,and i am not saying this is better since i haven't tried it but all magazines say it is,think about a SME model 20.2 fitted with a Graham Phantom arm.

Great, thanks for the info! It will probably be awhile before I change anything on my turntable setup, but I will definitely keep it in mind for later on down the road.